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The KHR universe is a fairly standard Shounen universe. However, I do not agree with the current scaling of the verse on the wiki page. My goal for this content revision is not necessarily to cajole or pander to the masses but to break down why the universe scales higher than what the wiki states. There has been another attempt at this upscale but it was not as in-depth as this one so I will be trying to amend that. I will also be pulling arguments from that thread as well and addressing them. Furthermore, this should serve as an introduction to the arguments and scaling rather than a definitive guide. I also acknowledge that not everyone will agree right away and if you have any further inquiries, please comment below. If you have any questions about scans, comment below, also. I will also be open to any debates with anyone on this. For VC debates, you can get ahold of me on my discord: Tetsuya#4495
Star Level Tsuna:
In Tsuna's fight against Enma, Enma summoned gravity spheres using his flame ability. Each one of these spheres has gravity equal to that of a star. An unquestioned rule within the realm of physics is that mass and gravity are directly proportional. If something has the gravity of a star, it will also have the mass of a star as well. I will admit that stars come in varying sizes and shapes but he did destroy multiple of them all at once so we can assume a slightly higher than the normal yield of a feat like this. Also, consider that the gravity was strong enough to throw off Tsuna's flight pattern in the fight. This would mean that it most likely wouldn't be the smallest among the small of stars. However, further speculation of that will not be discussed in this article unless brought up.
Universal Tsuna:
The most common argument surfacing, as it seems to me, is Tsuna being upscaled to universal level. That is what the thread I linked in my first paragraph discussed. It uses the argument of Tsuna's XXBurner equating to that of the Big Bang. For scans of this, please see the thread itself. I will be going over some of the arguments against this upscale that I saw within the thread.
"This is an outlier."
This is probably the most common argument I've seen when discussing this topic, whether it be here or on some other platform of social media. I will be going over the guidelines of the outlier wiki page.
1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so, despite the jump between energy values we attribute to them. If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.
It is a big jump in power indeed. However, as the last sentence states, we can most likely overlook this point. Tsuna has used his XXBurner twice in the series. One was when he was fighting Enma and he needed to destroy the black hole. The second time was when he was fighting Daemon Spade where he needed to destroy seven black holes all at once. This is also accompanied by a statement of Tsuna holding back when he first used XXBurner which would add to consistency with the writing. Overall, this is a very subjective point as to whether or not something is an "outlier." Just because something is a massive jump in power, does not make it an outlier. Look at verses such as Inazuma Eleven, Magi, or Blazblue.
2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards. If the character has very few feats, we can also likely skip this point.
As I stated prior, Tsuna used this attack twice in his life and both times, it was consistent with the power he needed in order to accomplish the feat. This is twice which is one short of the guidelines for this section number, however, both times were very consistent with the scaling of the power of the XXBurner and also with the lack of feats, so it is logical to skip this point as well.
3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? If an extreme incident is not accompanied by any kind of explanation that justifies it, it is probably an outlier. But if it can be explained by means of some power-up, vulnerability or limiter, it is likely not. If Superman is wounded by a bullet, it's probably an outlier. But if Superman was under the influence of red sunlight or was previously weakened with Kryptonite, it is not.
We know that Tsuna got the second most powerful upgrade within the series prior to this feat. That being the Vongola's Sin. This feat didn't come out of anywhere and came directly after a massive power-up within the series. Who are we to say that a power-up cannot upscale someone's stats from continental to universal? Like I stated before, look at other fictional universes where massive gaps in scaling take place.
4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Here we must take into account a number of factors, such as comparable characters possessing feats or statements of a similar level to the hypothetical outlier, the outlier not being supported by fights that might suggest a similar level, or subsequent events or statements that contradict it in some way.
There are no inconsistencies to my knowledge. People like Enma survived being inside of a black hole which should upscale his durability to universal from the infinite amounts of tidal force within a black hole. The statement of Tsuna's XXBurner being as powerful as the Big Bang also came from Reborn, a highly credible source that does not over exaggerate and serves as a narrative plot device of narration throughout the series.
5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work? Many times an outlier breaks with what has been previously established or shown in a work, creating inconsistencies that are difficult to resolve unless we invalidate one of the two events. If, for example, a character claims not to be able to dodge bullets, even though he was previously seen dodging them explicitly, we are faced with a contradiction where we will probably have to resort to using the more reliable evidence.
There are no inconsistencies. There are no statements anywhere in KHR, before or after the feat, that would suggest that this level of power is impossible.
Overall, this argument is highly subjective as there aren't too many objective guidelines with some guidelines falling along the lines of "do you think this jump in power is reasonable?" A claim that this is an outlier should be immediately responded to by a question for substantiation on why the feat is an outlier and not just an upscale. There are no scaling inconsistencies within the series for this feat, the statement is made by the most credible source within the universe, and the feat logically fits in place with the timeline.
"The black holes don't look like real-life black holes."
This is an appeal to reality. Something within fiction does not necessarily need to look like something in order for it to represent a certain thing. This is true, especially in cases of visual art such as manga. You could even argue that it looks flat because the singularity is extremely small and what we are seeing is actually the ejection disk of a black hole. Either way, if your whole argument hinges on the visual representation of it, despite the series explaining how a black hole is formed and the black holes forming how black holes normally form, then that would be a cherry-picking fallacy.
"The orbs that Enma created did not warp space."
They don't need to. You overestimate how much effect a star has on space. Stars do not have any visible warping of space around them. This is true even for massive stars. And even then, this star could be smaller than our star. Requiring a star to warp space around it is illogical as we don't know the mass of the star the spheres are based on and also for the simple fact that stars do not warp space to a visual degree in real life.
"They don't warp the light around it to create a gravitational lensing effect."
I would argue they did. Look at Enma's limbs when he fell into his own black hole. His body outstretched. Or you can go in another direction for a rebuttal and point out that if we are actually going by the realistic physics of photons, characters who are FTL should have a hard time perceiving the world around them and couldn't actually fight as they would not know where their opponent is or how about pointing out that we as readers couldn't actively perceive characters who are FTL due to them being faster than what should be possible to perceive. My point is that dabbling with photon physics to disprove something is a double-edged sword and applying it here would make a whole bunch of inconsistencies within shounen universes due to how finicky photon physics is. Typically, the physics of light and forces are generally overlooked due to them being hard to write in or for some other reason, so hinging your argument on the necessity of some sort of visual representation to satisfy your beliefs is illogical and would again, be cherry picking.
"They don't possess all the properties of a black hole."
Black holes are already mysterious to us and requiring every single niche thing that comes with black holes would throw off the narrative. The point of black holes is that they have intense gravity. as long as that idea gets conveyed, requiring every little thing about physics to go right is excessive. We don't require superman to destroy the earth every time he flies at FTL speeds because it is common to overlook these types of physics within fiction. It is fiction for a reason and requiring every single real aspect about something that's already quite mysterious to us in real life is an underhanded approach.
Essentially these are all appealing to reality and such can be countered with more or less, the same line of logic.
"Lack go large scale destruction."
A common misconception about black holes is that when a black hole is created, everything starts to get destroyed around it. This is not true at all. Mass is conservative and therefore gravity is. Because gravity is conserved, black hole gravity won't affect those it already didn't affect. A common example is if our sun turned into a black hole. This is improbable as it is too small to naturally turn into a black hole but let's say Enma used his powers on it. The black hole would not start to swallow our planets. this is because the sun did not actually change mass. Therefore, gravity exerted on the rest of the planets did not go up or go down. Because the spheres of gravity did not affect the surroundings before turning into black holes, it means that black holes wouldn't affect them (besides sucking in the air which the manga explicitly shows).
MFTL+ Tsuna:
This post shows the calculation made to scale Tsuna's speed. Any questions about the calculation should be commented down below. I'll go over a rough draft of what the calculation entailed. First, we took the Schwarzschild radius of the black hole to measure the black hole's mass. Then we used newton's formula to calculate how much gravitational power was being enacted upon Tsuna. Then we just converted the units into speed. I understand this is a very rough draft of the calculations so I'll be expecting a lot of questions about it in the comments.
As I said, this is only a means to open people's minds up to the arguments of MFTL+ and star or universal Tsuna. There will probably be lots of contention so I am well prepared to debate multiple people in a short amount of time. You can reach me via VC on discord. Tetsuya#4495
Star Level Tsuna:
In Tsuna's fight against Enma, Enma summoned gravity spheres using his flame ability. Each one of these spheres has gravity equal to that of a star. An unquestioned rule within the realm of physics is that mass and gravity are directly proportional. If something has the gravity of a star, it will also have the mass of a star as well. I will admit that stars come in varying sizes and shapes but he did destroy multiple of them all at once so we can assume a slightly higher than the normal yield of a feat like this. Also, consider that the gravity was strong enough to throw off Tsuna's flight pattern in the fight. This would mean that it most likely wouldn't be the smallest among the small of stars. However, further speculation of that will not be discussed in this article unless brought up.
Universal Tsuna:
The most common argument surfacing, as it seems to me, is Tsuna being upscaled to universal level. That is what the thread I linked in my first paragraph discussed. It uses the argument of Tsuna's XXBurner equating to that of the Big Bang. For scans of this, please see the thread itself. I will be going over some of the arguments against this upscale that I saw within the thread.
"This is an outlier."
This is probably the most common argument I've seen when discussing this topic, whether it be here or on some other platform of social media. I will be going over the guidelines of the outlier wiki page.
1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so, despite the jump between energy values we attribute to them. If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.
It is a big jump in power indeed. However, as the last sentence states, we can most likely overlook this point. Tsuna has used his XXBurner twice in the series. One was when he was fighting Enma and he needed to destroy the black hole. The second time was when he was fighting Daemon Spade where he needed to destroy seven black holes all at once. This is also accompanied by a statement of Tsuna holding back when he first used XXBurner which would add to consistency with the writing. Overall, this is a very subjective point as to whether or not something is an "outlier." Just because something is a massive jump in power, does not make it an outlier. Look at verses such as Inazuma Eleven, Magi, or Blazblue.
2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards. If the character has very few feats, we can also likely skip this point.
As I stated prior, Tsuna used this attack twice in his life and both times, it was consistent with the power he needed in order to accomplish the feat. This is twice which is one short of the guidelines for this section number, however, both times were very consistent with the scaling of the power of the XXBurner and also with the lack of feats, so it is logical to skip this point as well.
3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? If an extreme incident is not accompanied by any kind of explanation that justifies it, it is probably an outlier. But if it can be explained by means of some power-up, vulnerability or limiter, it is likely not. If Superman is wounded by a bullet, it's probably an outlier. But if Superman was under the influence of red sunlight or was previously weakened with Kryptonite, it is not.
We know that Tsuna got the second most powerful upgrade within the series prior to this feat. That being the Vongola's Sin. This feat didn't come out of anywhere and came directly after a massive power-up within the series. Who are we to say that a power-up cannot upscale someone's stats from continental to universal? Like I stated before, look at other fictional universes where massive gaps in scaling take place.
4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Here we must take into account a number of factors, such as comparable characters possessing feats or statements of a similar level to the hypothetical outlier, the outlier not being supported by fights that might suggest a similar level, or subsequent events or statements that contradict it in some way.
There are no inconsistencies to my knowledge. People like Enma survived being inside of a black hole which should upscale his durability to universal from the infinite amounts of tidal force within a black hole. The statement of Tsuna's XXBurner being as powerful as the Big Bang also came from Reborn, a highly credible source that does not over exaggerate and serves as a narrative plot device of narration throughout the series.
5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work? Many times an outlier breaks with what has been previously established or shown in a work, creating inconsistencies that are difficult to resolve unless we invalidate one of the two events. If, for example, a character claims not to be able to dodge bullets, even though he was previously seen dodging them explicitly, we are faced with a contradiction where we will probably have to resort to using the more reliable evidence.
There are no inconsistencies. There are no statements anywhere in KHR, before or after the feat, that would suggest that this level of power is impossible.
Overall, this argument is highly subjective as there aren't too many objective guidelines with some guidelines falling along the lines of "do you think this jump in power is reasonable?" A claim that this is an outlier should be immediately responded to by a question for substantiation on why the feat is an outlier and not just an upscale. There are no scaling inconsistencies within the series for this feat, the statement is made by the most credible source within the universe, and the feat logically fits in place with the timeline.
"The black holes don't look like real-life black holes."
This is an appeal to reality. Something within fiction does not necessarily need to look like something in order for it to represent a certain thing. This is true, especially in cases of visual art such as manga. You could even argue that it looks flat because the singularity is extremely small and what we are seeing is actually the ejection disk of a black hole. Either way, if your whole argument hinges on the visual representation of it, despite the series explaining how a black hole is formed and the black holes forming how black holes normally form, then that would be a cherry-picking fallacy.
"The orbs that Enma created did not warp space."
They don't need to. You overestimate how much effect a star has on space. Stars do not have any visible warping of space around them. This is true even for massive stars. And even then, this star could be smaller than our star. Requiring a star to warp space around it is illogical as we don't know the mass of the star the spheres are based on and also for the simple fact that stars do not warp space to a visual degree in real life.
"They don't warp the light around it to create a gravitational lensing effect."
I would argue they did. Look at Enma's limbs when he fell into his own black hole. His body outstretched. Or you can go in another direction for a rebuttal and point out that if we are actually going by the realistic physics of photons, characters who are FTL should have a hard time perceiving the world around them and couldn't actually fight as they would not know where their opponent is or how about pointing out that we as readers couldn't actively perceive characters who are FTL due to them being faster than what should be possible to perceive. My point is that dabbling with photon physics to disprove something is a double-edged sword and applying it here would make a whole bunch of inconsistencies within shounen universes due to how finicky photon physics is. Typically, the physics of light and forces are generally overlooked due to them being hard to write in or for some other reason, so hinging your argument on the necessity of some sort of visual representation to satisfy your beliefs is illogical and would again, be cherry picking.
"They don't possess all the properties of a black hole."
Black holes are already mysterious to us and requiring every single niche thing that comes with black holes would throw off the narrative. The point of black holes is that they have intense gravity. as long as that idea gets conveyed, requiring every little thing about physics to go right is excessive. We don't require superman to destroy the earth every time he flies at FTL speeds because it is common to overlook these types of physics within fiction. It is fiction for a reason and requiring every single real aspect about something that's already quite mysterious to us in real life is an underhanded approach.
Essentially these are all appealing to reality and such can be countered with more or less, the same line of logic.
"Lack go large scale destruction."
A common misconception about black holes is that when a black hole is created, everything starts to get destroyed around it. This is not true at all. Mass is conservative and therefore gravity is. Because gravity is conserved, black hole gravity won't affect those it already didn't affect. A common example is if our sun turned into a black hole. This is improbable as it is too small to naturally turn into a black hole but let's say Enma used his powers on it. The black hole would not start to swallow our planets. this is because the sun did not actually change mass. Therefore, gravity exerted on the rest of the planets did not go up or go down. Because the spheres of gravity did not affect the surroundings before turning into black holes, it means that black holes wouldn't affect them (besides sucking in the air which the manga explicitly shows).
MFTL+ Tsuna:
This post shows the calculation made to scale Tsuna's speed. Any questions about the calculation should be commented down below. I'll go over a rough draft of what the calculation entailed. First, we took the Schwarzschild radius of the black hole to measure the black hole's mass. Then we used newton's formula to calculate how much gravitational power was being enacted upon Tsuna. Then we just converted the units into speed. I understand this is a very rough draft of the calculations so I'll be expecting a lot of questions about it in the comments.
As I said, this is only a means to open people's minds up to the arguments of MFTL+ and star or universal Tsuna. There will probably be lots of contention so I am well prepared to debate multiple people in a short amount of time. You can reach me via VC on discord. Tetsuya#4495
