A Certain Llama Wants In On The Low 1-C club; Pokemon Low 1-C Upgrade for True Form Arceus

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I think in this part he was joking regarding his comment about High 3-A

Oh, then im sorry about that.

 

[Thelastmlg]

I'm late and agree with this, and i'm curious if the hiker and poem about the heart creating the world with it's awareness be usable? Or eas the lack of evidence refering to what those scans actually mean't?

 

[Confluctor]

Ok challenge accepted.

It's not a challenge...

ialga and Palkia are the concepts of space and time themselves and Arceus is beyond those completely as those are just an aspect of it.

Again... Just because one is beyond it, doesn't mean complete infinite superiority. It just means he is way too big.

Palkia (aka space) is the directions of the verse, and also the parallel universes as pointed in our cosmology blog. Arceus has those as a mere fraction of its being, that's the whole argument, as the 4D axis themselves are just a fraction of its whole being.

Doesn't mean Arceous whatever his name is 5D now, does it.

Beyond, transcends,... whatever. None of these illustrate how it is low 1-c, rather than much higher into tier 2

It doesn't make sense given that the whole verse is a part of Arceus in itself, thus is logical that its realm is superior than the rest. Being superior to 4D space-time in nature is enough to be Low 1-C, and Arceus does this.

if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level

This is what I am looking for, and I can see the evidence neither in OP nor in your posts. It's mere speculations that transcendence and beyond means infinitely superior here. But the evidence isn't illustrating that properly


Also, I would appreciate it if you or the OP were the only ones who replied.

 

[Pikaman]

It's not a challenge...

This is nitpicking something completely irrelevant to the argument and you know it

 

[Confluctor]

?

 

[GyroNutz]

Following. To clarify, is a "possibly" rating or a solid rating being suggested here?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It's not a challenge...

Again... Just because one is beyond it, doesn't mean complete infinite superiority. It just means he is way too big.

Doesn't mean Arceous whatever his name is 5D now, does it.

Beyond, transcends,... whatever. None of these illustrate how it is low 1-c, rather than much higher into tier 2

Not to speak for Strym here, but im 99% certain that the point he's been trying to explain to you here is that because the 4-D aspect of the verse is only a small aspect of Arceus's existence, that in and of itself should speak to True Arcues being superior in nature to the verse's 4-D space-time when this said being clarifies his realm being beyond time and space and is considered a being who transcends everything entirely.

Having said that, my bit on Hoopa and it's rings interacting with the Creation Trio's dimensions but being completely incapable of interacting with Arceus's is also evidence to be used together with this to prove superiority, so im not seeing whats "speculative" about transcendence here.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Following. To clarify, is a "possibly" rating or a solid rating being suggested here?

Hey Gyro, nice to see you again. To clarify, im fine with either one, but given the obvious nature of the suggested upgrade, "possibly" should be the more preferable checkpoint rather than a solid Low 1-C rating. If anything, 2-A can probably be the one that becomes a solid rating (but we can discuss this later)

But yeah, "possibly" is the bigger suggestion here.

 

[Arthex]

Imma be neutral after Confluctor's argument.

First thing, Arcues is beyond "time and space" and trascends it, so he is sure above time and space, but by how much? thats not known. if you can prove that Arcues is apparently infinitly superior to the dimensions of time and space, I'll agree.

There is only one difference between above baseline 2a structures(that need more range to affect) and 5d structures, one is quantitatively superior to 4d structures. while the other is not. Same case here.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

First thing, Arcues is beyond "time and space" and trascends it, so he is sure above time and space, but by how much? thats not known. if you can prove that Arcues is apparently infinitly superior to the dimensions of time and space, I'll agree.

There is only one difference between above baseline 2a structures(that need more range to affect) and 5d structures, one is quantitatively superior to 4d structures. while the other is not. Same case here.

Well, as Strym and I reiterated, the points on proving superiority both come from the fact that the 4-D aspect of the verse is only a facet of Arceus's existence, suggesting true Arceus and his realm are superior in nature to the said 4-D part of the verse (which as outlined in the FAQ's of the tiering page, is enough to reach Low 1-C)

And because of the Hoopa bit, where his infinitely powered rings are able to forcibly interact with the dimensions of the Creation Trio, but are completely incapable of doing the same thing with Arceus's.

 

[StrymULTRA]

This is what I am looking for, and I can see the evidence neither in OP nor in your posts. It's mere speculations that transcendence and beyond means infinitely superior here. But the evidence isn't illustrating that properly


Also, I would appreciate it if you or the OP were the only ones who replied

Dude, you're being too nitpicking.

Even in the Q&A is said that is needed just a realm that displaced explicit superiority to space-times in nature to it being Low 1-C.

Palkia is the concept of space which displaces directions and parallel universes as well, and those are mete fraction of Arceus' true being, whose realm is explicitly beyond Palkia as well, given the latter is a mere aspect of the former. You don't need infinite transcendence statements, that's already dealt in the Archie Sonic thread lol.

Following. To clarify, is a "possibly" rating or a solid rating being suggested here?

Tbh solid is preferable, but even a "possibly" can go to me in my eyes.

 

[Arthex]

Having said that, my bit on Hoopa and it's rings interacting with the Creation Trio's dimensions but being completely incapable of interacting with Arceus's is also evidence to be used together with this to prove superiority, so im not seeing whats "speculative" about transcendence here.

All you just pointed out in this paragraph is just needing above baseline 2a range-required to interact with him. unless you are able to prove that you would infact, need infinitly superior to range to even arcues's dimension.

If you succeed in that, I think this feat will also count. Giratina was unable to reach Arcues's dimension in the Legends of Arcues for some reason, so that would mean Arcues's dimension either requires above baseline 2a range or 5d range to interact with. depending on whether you can prove the difference or not.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I do agree with OP. Funni llama existing above (transcending) time and space. When time and space are multiversal individuals to begin with. Does scream higher-d to me.

 

[Arthex]

And because of the Hoopa bit, where his infinitely powered rings are able to forcibly interact with the dimensions of the Creation Trio, but are completely incapable of doing the same thing with Arceus's.

Infinity Powered, Pardon? I m sorry but i cant understand what you meant by Infinity powered rings unless it just meant that they are superior to his normal rings or something.

Well, as Strym and I reiterated, the points on proving superiority both come from the fact that the 4-D aspect of the verse is only a facet of Arceus's existence, suggesting true Arceus and his realm are superior in nature to the said 4-D part of the verse (which as outlined in the FAQ's of the tiering page, is enough to reach Low 1-C

if that's the case, low 1c Arceus should be a reality imo. I agree

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

All you just pointed out in this paragraph is just needing above baseline 2a range-required to interact with him. unless you are able to prove that you would infact, need infinitly superior to range to even arcues's dimension.

If you succeed in that, I think this feat will also count. Giratina was unable to reach Arcues's dimension in the Legends of Arcues for some reason, so that would mean Arcues's dimension either requires above baseline 2a range or 5d range to interact with. depending on whether you can prove the difference or not.

I never thought of it like this. Giratina did need Arceus to come down to try (and probably fail) to take down its dad, and couldn’t go up on its own free will.

 

[StrymULTRA]

All you just pointed out in this paragraph is just needing above baseline 2a range-required to interact with him. unless you are able to prove that you would infact, need infinitly superior to range to even arcues's dimension.

If you succeed in that, I think this feat will also count. Giratina was unable to reach Arcues's dimension in the Legends of Arcues for some reason, so that would mean Arcues's dimension either requires above baseline 2a range or 5d range to interact with. depending on whether you can prove the difference or not.

Me and Kukui have already discussed on this way before PLA got released.

I agree that from its own the Hoopa thing is not enough, but adding to the other statements, Hoopa's power, which is "infinite" as it can force even 2-A beings under its control from 2-A sized realms, can't work on Arceus as it's dimensionally superior to those.

Again, not saying that alone is the proof, but it supports this notion the OP has suggesting.

 

[Arthex]

I never thought of it like this. Giratina did need Arceus to come down to try (and probably fail) to take down its dad, and couldn’t go up on its own free will.

Actually, it was a user named "ultimate" who told me this. he always had enough proof for above baseline 2a ranged pokemon, but never made a thread whenever I asked him .

Low 1c arcues has too much proof now for people to ignore and dismiss as "cherrypicking"

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

All you just pointed out in this paragraph is just needing above baseline 2a range-required to interact with him. unless you are able to prove that you would infact, need infinitly superior to range to even arcues's dimension.

Except, Hoopa's role in this isn't "just" above baseline 2a range.

His rings possess infinite power

Those said rings, only when used by Hoopa's true form and power that is above Hoopa Confined, are able to forcibly interact with the Creation Trio's dimensions in order to summon them.

But even while as Hoopa Unbound, Hoopa cant interact with Arceus's realm in any way, as the evidence I gave shows for why.

If Hoopa needs his infinitely powered rings as Unbound (or arguably even greater) to forcefully interact with the CT's dimensions, dimensions that Arceus's realm transcends entirely, and Hoopa cant in any way interact with Arceus's realm, then it should be pretty clear on how and why theres superiority.

And like Strym reiterated, infinite superiority isnt required, just as Archie Sonic and the Chaos Force got Low 1-C without needing it either.

If you succeed in that, I think this feat will also count. Giratina was unable to reach Arcues's dimension in the Legends of Arcues for some reason, so that would mean Arcues's dimension either requires above baseline 2a range or 5d range to interact with. depending on whether you can prove the difference or not.

 

[Confluctor]

Not to speak for Strym here, but im 99% certain that the point he's been trying to explain to you here is that because the 4-D aspect of the verse is only a small aspect of Arceus's existence, that in and of itself should speak to True Arcues being superior in nature to the verse's 4-D space-time when this said being clarifies his realm being beyond time and space and is considered a being who transcends everything entirely.

I realised as much, but that just means he is a "bigger 4-D"

Having said that, my bit on Hoopa and it's rings interacting with the Creation Trio's dimensions but being completely incapable of interacting with Arceus's is also evidence to be used together with this to prove superiority, so im not seeing whats "speculative" about transcendence here.

But can you show some evidence that says that ring can interact just fine with a higher d - in the 4D space - and as well as with timeless and spacelesss dimensions?

Dude, you're being too nitpicking.

Even in the Q&A is said that is needed just a realm that displaced explicit superiority to space-times in nature to it being Low 1-C.

Palkia is the concept of space which displaces directions and parallel universes as well, and those are mete fraction of Arceus' true being, whose realm is explicitly beyond Palkia as well, given the latter is a mere aspect of the former. You don't need infinite transcendence statements, that's already dealt in the Archie Sonic thread lol.

Bruh


I obviously disagree with this, the evidence is hella flimsy and obviously, the definition from the FaQ is overblown. And for the record, I don't agree with Sonic's either. And on that note, gotta say, idrc much, might come back to it later if I see more evidence thrown around. But until then, I will let the usual suspects do their thing. But ye, hard disagree with anything above 2-A.

Cya

 

[Arthex]

Me and Kukui have already discussed on this way before PLA got released.

I agree that from its own the Hoopa thing is not enough, but adding to the other statements, Hoopa's power, which is "infinite" as it can force even 2-A beings under its control from 2-A sized realms, can't work on Arceus as it's dimensionally superior to those.

Again, not saying that alone is the proof, but it supports this notion the OP has suggesting.

I am just putting my opinion here, if being unquantifiably superior to the dimensions of time and space with a LOAD of proof is infact low 1c. I agree, else above baseline 2a arcues is a must.

 

[theultimate5105]

Actually, it was a user named "ultimate" who told me this. he always had enough proof for above baseline 2a ranged pokemon, but never made a thread whenever I asked him .

because I am lazy and finding scans is always annoying when they are not already posted.

 

[Everything12]

Off topic, but I'd prefer it if images like that were not used to respond or comment in threads; we really don't need threads filled with images like that, especially one's as obnoxiously large as that, and especially especially one's that have the history that one does.

 

[StrymULTRA]

But can you show some evidence that says that ring can interact just fine with a higher d - in the 4D space - and as well as with timeless and spacelesss dimensions?

Possible Acausality (Type 4: In the Distortion World there aren't nor directions nor time, space isn't stable and the laws of reality are distorted. Giratina can freerly move there unlike those who venture into it)

On Giratina's profile. And Hoopa still interacted with that. And directions are now explicitly related to space in the verse, so is a solid proof to say that Distortion World lacks both time and space.

Bruh


I obviously disagree with this, the evidence is hella flimsy and obviously, the definition from the FaQ is overblown.

I mean...

However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is outright superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor.

And it happens here.

And for the record, I don't agree with Sonic's either. And on that note, gotta say, idrc much, might come back to it later if I see more evidence thrown around. But until then, I will let the usual suspects do their thing. But ye, hard disagree with anything above 2-A.

Cya

Lmao ok.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I realised as much, but that just means he is a "bigger 4-D"

As someone here said above, there's no such thing as a "bigger 4-D". 4-D space time being a tiny facet of your true existence should be enough to suggest your said true existence is superior in nature to it. And it doesn't need to be infinite as the FAQ note already specifies (but i'll go more into this below).

But can you show some evidence that says that ring can interact just fine with a higher d - in the 4D space - and as well as with timeless and spacelesss dimensions?

....your asking something that my thread already showed. Hoopas rings summoning the Creation Trio, whos dimensions are 4-D and one of those said dimensions, the distortion world, lacking the concepts of time and space.

That is the rings interacting just fine with 4-D dimensions.

Bruh

I obviously disagree with this, the evidence is hella flimsy and obviously, the definition from the FaQ is overblown. And for the record, I don't agree with Sonic's either. And on that note, gotta say, idrc much, might come back to it later if I see more evidence thrown around. But until then, I will let the usual suspects do their thing. But ye, hard disagree with anything above 2-A.

It sounds like you just don't understand the definition from our FAQ, and it shows, since cases like Archie Sonic successfully got Low 1-C without needing to prove infinite superiority. Like, at all.

So if your gonna disagree, either get the note changed and downgrade Archie Sonic (and good luck on doing that), or don't trap yourself in a double standard and accept the same thing here.

 

[Pikaman]

It sounds like you just don't understand the definition from our FAQ, and it shows, since cases like Archie Sonic successfully got Low 1-C without needing to prove infinite superiority. Like, at all.

So if your gonna disagree, either get the note changed and downgrade Archie Sonic (and good luck on doing that), or don't trap yourself in a double standard and accept the same thing here.

Yeah I think their argument is reliant on using different standards to the wiki precedent, on the basis that... they don’t agree with the precedent.

...

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I also just want to give clarification that the evidence from Hoopa thats included in this is supporting evidence for the upgrade. Not the core argument.

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima

This is a Low 1-C upgrade thread about Pokémon, specifically about Arecus. Some staff to come and evaluate this would be helpful.

Not much debate or points have been added beyond the opening post. So reading that should be enough to understand the points the thread is trying to make.

@Starter_Pack @SamanPatou @SomebodyData @Colonel_Krukov @DarkDragonMedeus @Firestorm808 @QuasiYuri

Would you be willing to help out with evaluating this please? Confluctor seems to have rejected the revision though.

 

[Antvasima]

Off topic, but I'd prefer it if images like that were not used to respond or comment in threads; we really don't need threads filled with images like that, especially one's as obnoxiously large as that, and especially especially one's that have the history that one does.

If you are referring to memes, then I obviously strongly agree. It is very rude and tasteless to use them to mock others or derail, especially in content revision threads.

 

[StrymULTRA]

@QuasiYuri

Would you be willing to help out with evaluating this please? Confluctor seems to have rejected the revision though.

I do agree with OP. Funni llama existing above (transcending) time and space. When time and space are multiversal individuals to begin with. Does scream higher-d to me.

Regarding Giratina, I think it should've been obvious since then that the Distortion World "lacking" time and space is just used to say that it is completely ****** up.

Anyway, given our current standards I can buy a "possibly" too.

^

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Starter_Pack @SamanPatou @SomebodyData @Colonel_Krukov @DarkDragonMedeus @Firestorm808 @QuasiYuri

Would you be willing to help out with evaluating this please? Confluctor seems to have rejected the revision though.

Hey Ant, it's good to see you again.

Not to interfere or anything, but I just wanted to point out that Confluctor's disagreement seems to be based on the precedent that he lacks understanding of our FAQ's section of the tiering system page speaking about Low 1-C, since we accept cases like Archie Sonic and the chaos force being Low 1-C without needing what he thinks is needed here.

So I only pointed this out for you to keep into consideration.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Confluctor straight up also said they don't know the verse at all, so I don't see how their opinion can go if they don't know the context of all of this tbf...

 

[Pikaman]

yeah we shouldn’t be taking arguments like “I disagree with the current standards for Low 1-C on this wiki so I disagree with this because it doesn’t fit MY definition of Low 1-C” which I’m pretty sure is Confluctor’s argument

if they wanted to reject this they’d also need to do stuff like get changes to the F&Q and downgrade Archie Sonic

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

@Starter_Pack @SamanPatou @SomebodyData @Colonel_Krukov @DarkDragonMedeus @Firestorm808 @QuasiYuri

Would you be willing to help out with evaluating this please? Confluctor seems to have rejected the revision though.

@SamanPatou isn't too interested in Pokémon CRTs anymore due to fundamentally disagreeing with how Pokémon is rated and treated here as a composite verse (Which is understandable tbh).

He may still want to give input on this CRT but I thought it'll be best to let you know.

 

[Pikaman]

Also I wanna say I think outright Low 1-C is better here, why would there be doubt about the tier given the evidence seen here?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Tbh I agree with Confluctor, but I have to answer based on the wiki's standard, hence the "possibly", since it partially fits the site's conditions but still is a big vague in itself.

 

[Rez]

While I am not seeing any evidence for an outright Low 1-C rating i do agree with an possibly/likely rating.

 

[Pikaman]

Maybe we should collect a tally on Possibly/Likely vs Outright to see what opinion on that is

 

[StrymULTRA]

Maybe we should collect a tally on Possibly/Likely vs Outright to see what opinion on that is

Tbh likely won't be as Arceus is already "2-B, likely 2-A".

But I can write a justification for each of the ends.

 

[Pikaman]

Tbh likely won't be as Arceus is already "2-B, likely 2-A".

“At least 2-B, possibly 2-A, likely Low 1-C”

 

[StrymULTRA]

“At least 2-B, possibly 2-A, likely Low 1-C”

likely is stronger than possibly tho.

Order is always Solid > Likely > Possibly