A Certain Llama Wants In On The Low 1-C club; Pokemon Low 1-C Upgrade for True Form Arceus

[Sniper670]

and the author statement was in reference to HGSS. They're no contradictions.

Well It was in HGSS that it was confirmed Arceus is just a manifestation of the Original Spirit, no?

And PLA confirms his True Form lives beyond the multiverse. Everything they've been interacting with within the multiverse have been Avatars.

If anyone is transcendent, it's not the Avatars whom his True Form let's you fight for fun.

 

[Arthex]

Directions are quite interchangeable with dimensions here, as shown in the OP.

Yeah I get that, it's just that I thought normal dimensions aren't accepted by the wiki, only "transcended" ones.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah I get that, it's just that I thought normal dimensions aren't accepted by the wiki, only "transcended" ones.

I mean, according to the Wiki Q&A being beyond space and time (with Arceus having these are just its mere aspects) qualifies as Low 1-C if you're superior to 4D space-time. And Arceus has more than a single proof of this.

 

[Sniper670]

While we're at this.
GameFreak Exists within the mainline games and they've been confirmed to write the storylines, create the protagonist and such within it. Should'nt original one get plot manipulation for encompassing the verse and gamefreak in extension?

 

[Everything12]

I'm going to have to ask to stay on track and not post off-topic things here.

 

[CosmicWreck]

Shaking doesn't mean much

Shaking a universe is significantly affecting it and if you mean the 4-A calcs, those only take the physical realm into consideration.

and it would mean that Arceus avatars can kill the true form which is false ofc.

No it doesn't. Tier Low 1-C is unquantifiably huge, you can be the same tier and be vastly superior

We don't have much evidence to suggest that the Hall of Origin (Arceus' avatars realm) is the same as the realm beyond time and space at the beginning of Legends: Arceus.

True, but the statement has nothing to do with the realm, it's about Arceus transcending everything

While we could assume that Arceus' avatar does not have a different realm to true form Arceus, I'm not comfortable enough to give Arceus' avatars Low 1-C on that assumption alone when it lacks explicit proof.

Fair.

Otherwise, we could at least give Arceus' avatars Low 1-C range based off it's residence in there and calling the Player there.

Sure.

 

[Sniper670]

I'm going to have to ask to stay on track and not post off-topic things here.

Okay then.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Agree as well

 

[StrymULTRA]

No it doesn't. You can be the same tier and be vastly superior

That's circular scaling and you know it.

But this is derailing as this is only on True Form Arceus. Avatar/Creation Trio/etc is just on their own thread.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Guys let’s stay on track here please. Even if Arceus’s Avatar does or could scale, they are not the topic of this thread. True Form Arceus is

if you want to discuss the avatars scaling, please do that in a new thread after we finish this one.

 

[Jibz]

Had time to read through the thread, and it's pretty blatant. I agree unequivocally with the thread

 

[Everything12]

@Antvasima

This is a Low 1-C upgrade thread about Pokémon, specifically about Arecus. Some staff to come and evaluate this would be helpful.

Not much debate or points have been added beyond the opening post. So reading that should be enough to understand the points the thread is trying to make.

 

[CosmicWreck]

That's circular scaling and you know it.

They are literally the same being. Scaling between them at all like you're doing doesn't make sense.

But this is derailing as this is only on True Form Arceus. Avatar/Creation Trio/etc is just on their own thread.

Yeah sure, I already conceded on it anyway.

 

[Zencha9]

Yeah i agree it's pretty clear

 

[NeoZex6399]

It seems reasonable, so I agree.

 

[NIK_FARIS]

I agree. These are good evidences to at least give True Form Arceus possibly low 1c.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Antvasima

This is a Low 1-C upgrade thread about Pokémon, specifically about Arecus. Some staff to come and evaluate this would be helpful.

Not much debate or points have been added beyond the opening post. So reading that should be enough to understand the points the thread is trying to make.

Hey Everything, good to see you again. Im currently updating the vote count of the post.

Besides the off topic talk on scailing Arceus's avatars, whats your stance on the upgrade for True Form Arceus?

 

[Everything12]

I'm honestly certainly biased, so I'm not making any vote until other staff give their opinion.

 

[Pikaman]

Agree: @QuasiYuri, @StrymULTRA, @Bernkastelll, @ActuallySpaceMan, @Noneless21 @Problemexe, @Yemma670, @OnsokunoSonic, @Rendynoc0unter, @DigiAnymore, @CosmicWreck, @RM97, @BlackDarkness679, @DaReaperMan, @Arthex, @XXKINGXX69, @theultimate5105, @Arceus0x, @Pikaman, @The_Pink_God, @TheDivineHost, @Rikimarox2, @Veloxt1r0kore, @Jibz, @Zencha9

hmmm I wonder if this will get accepted or not

 

[Everything12]

Who knows. Only one staff member has given, what looks like, a half hearted agree to a possibly.

But if someone more familiar in Tier 1 comes around and says the logic behind this is wrong, then I forsee them changing to a disagree and any other staff who looks at this also disagreeing.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I'm honestly certainly biased, so I'm not making any vote until other staff give their opinion.

Isn't that also just being biased to staff?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Guys, let's not please...

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I agree with possibly/likely (I don't mind either tbh) Low 1-C eldritch formless llama and the addtions that come with it, judging by the replies it seems this will make the avatars smurfs too? I'm neutral leaning towards agreeing with giving the avatars Low 1-C smurf range if I'm understanding correctly (possibly/likely too).

Ofc if you haven't done so already I suggest contacting @DontTalkDT, @Ultima_Reality and/or @Elizhaa since they're the staff that are most knowledgeable with tier 1 (who have also participated in several Low 1-C or higher CRTs in the past alongside @QuasiYuri).

Also for just general staff input I believe @DarkDragonMedeus, @Starter_Pack and @GyroNutz would be interested in this CRT.

Also echoing what others have already said, let's attempt to keep this CRT clean and concise. Keep the whataboutism, sass and just general derailment to an absolute minimum.

Good job btw @ProfessorKukui4Life.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Guys, the avatars won't get nothing from this. This CRT is only about the True Form. Anything regarding the avatars is gonna be discussed elsewhere because of this thread being pretty controversial in itself.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Isn't that also just being biased to staff?

Man don't bring controversy here

 

[XXKINGXX69]

it seems this will make the avatars smurfs too? I'm neutral leaning towards agreeing with giving the avatars Low 1-C smurf range if I'm understanding correctly (possibly/likely too).

Did you read the OP? "As a reminder, this thread is only to discuss True Form Arceus receiving the potential upgrade"

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Guys, the avatars won't get nothing from this. This CRT is only about the True Form. Anything regarding the avatars is gonna be discussed elsewhere because of this thread being pretty controversial in itself.

I was only judging what I saw in the replies my bad. Ok let's continue to focus on the Low 1-C True Form then.

My apologies if I contributed to the derail in anyway.

 

[Confluctor]

Know nothing about the verse soo... I am mostly interested in getting some more in verse context rather than casting a vote. At least for now

The scan used is from the very 1st cutscene you see at the beginning of the game, where Arceus describes its realm, being beyond space and time.

Being beyond space and time could just be a tier 2 domain too, you know. Just because something is located beyond it, doesn't mean its tier 1. In my experience, I have seen beyond space and time used quite a lot, sometimes to just talk about a place which has no time and space. I have no idea what the current standards around spaceless and timeless place is, but to me, it is not anything special.

Before I get into this, I’ll explain what the Eternal Battle Reverie is.

It’s basically a game mode where Arceus summons you again to its realm to challenge you in fights, and there you can even use your own Arceus against “Arceus’ Arceus” and it showcased even multiple versions of the Creation Trio existing at the same time, confirming completely that they use avatars to interact with the multiverse. This was even said in the game itself, where Arceus has given to the MC a part of itself as a reward for completing the mission Arceus has originally gave to them when it “isekai’d” them to Hisui, and the dex’s requirement to complete Arceus’ page (here's the clip where I took the screenshot) just repeats this even more.

I don't get this, can you explain a bit more why this evidence is used for tier 1?

For first, not just Arceus has it's own realm, but also all the Creation Trio members do have for each, and like Giratina, they are also said realms themselves (along with Arceus also being the entire Pokemon verse itself as it has already been said and accepted here). This matters as not only Giratina’s realm lacks directions as is even said on its current profile,

Just because the world lack direction, I don't see how that means its a higher infinity? A spaceless and timeless world would also lack direction. So...

but Palkia even includes directions themselves as part of what “space” in the Pokémon verse's context actually is (as even explained in the Part 3 section of our current 2-A Blog, where it's explained how space is the whole of the parallel universes).

Can you explain its relevance a bit more for tier 1? I am just not seeing anything regarding it?

Directions are related with dimensions, as there are at least 2 fundamental directions where one can move to for each axis:

• 0D: Can’t move at all, no axis where to move.
• 1D: Left and Right
• 2D: Left, Right, Front and Back
• 3D: Left, Right, Front, Back. Up and Down.

And so on. Given that Arceus’s own realm is beyond both time and space, with the latter being also the directions of the verse (thus, it is essentially the 4D aspect of the verse),

Right

I believe a Low 1-C rating can be given to Arceus, especially when Arceus is also described as the god who transcends everything by Masuda himself,

Is that it? Are there any more scans regarding this so called transcendence? Like you can transcend something, but doesn't mean you are infinitely superior to it.

and the totality of the verse is just a mere aspect of its being, meaning its existence is actually superior to the 4D part of the verse, thus it should qualify as superior enough to 4D to qualify as Low 1-C (which ExectutorN0 has already agreed to being enough to get a “possibly” rating for this when speaking about this with him).

I am sorry what?

I am not really seeing any proof of this "mere aspect" part of it. At least nothing for tier 1.

And to add in some more minor support for this, we can also use some information from Hoopa to back up Arceus and his realms superiority.

In the manga version of Hoopa and the Clash of Ages, Barza cites that Hoopa's rings possess infinite power.

High 3-A

This is proven by the fact that not only did Barza and Mary's grandfather Ghris, who had mastery over only a facet of power that Arceus bestowed onto them and their clan, originally sealed Hoopa's power away in the Prison Bottle in the first place, but Hoopa's rings after it regains the power of Unbound were even shrinking and being regressed inside a space-time distortion while attempting to use them to escape it. That shows the incomparable difference and how the rings cannot interact with Arceus's realm, despite them being capable of forcibily interacting with the Creation Trio's realms, and it should help provide more supporting evidence of True Form Arceus achieving Low 1-C.

What if its just a regular higher dimension with its own set of axis, but not infinitely superior. I know, they throw around the word transcend, but again, is there more proof of this being a low 1-C structure rather than a dimension with slightly different axis?

Also earlier you said that Arceus' dimension lacks space and time, so maybe that's why the rings weren't working. If there is some more context around this, please send it my way.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

is there more proof of this being a low 1-C structure rather than a dimension with slightly different axis?

Another dimension with a different axis that is greater than the dimension before it, so it would be 1 spatial dimension higher, since its not possible for it to be 4.1D or anything. It being inacessibly greater is another story, Kukui will explain (I hope)

 

[theultimate5105]

Also earlier you said that Arceus' dimension lacks space and time, so maybe that's why the rings weren't working. If there is some more context around this, please send it my way.

Giratinas Distortion world also lacks space and time (as in the Concepts of Space and Time) and Hoopa can access that, so lack of space and time is not something which prevents Hoopas rings from working

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ok challenge accepted.

Being beyond space and time could just be a tier 2 domain too, you know. Just because something is located beyond it, doesn't mean its tier 1. In my experience, I have seen beyond space and time used quite a lot, sometimes to just talk about a place which has no time and space. I have no idea what the current standards around spaceless and timeless place is, but to me, it is not anything special.

Dialga and Palkia are the concepts of space and time themselves and Arceus is beyond those completely as those are just an aspect of it.

I don't get this, can you explain a bit more why this evidence is used for tier 1?

To enforce the "avatar" thing.

Is that it? Are there any more scans regarding this so called transcendence? Like you can transcend something, but doesn't mean you are infinitely superior to it.

Palkia (aka space) is the directions of the verse, and also the parallel universes as pointed in our cosmology blog. Arceus has those as a mere fraction of its being, that's the whole argument, as the 4D axis themselves are just a fraction of its whole being.

What if its just a regular higher dimension with its own set of axis, but not infinitely superior. I know, they throw around the word transcend, but again, is there more proof of this being a low 1-C structure rather than a dimension with slightly different axis?

It doesn't make sense given that the whole verse is a part of Arceus in itself, thus is logical that its realm is superior than the rest. Being superior to 4D space-time in nature is enough to be Low 1-C, and Arceus does this.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Just because the world lack direction, I don't see how that means its a higher infinity? A spaceless and timeless world would also lack direction. So...

Forgot this part. Is more supportive evidence on why Arceus is Tier 1 than Giratina being such.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Being superior to 4D space-time in nature is enough to be Low 1-C

@ProfessorKukui4Life Add this link to the OP

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Forgot this part. Is more supportive evidence on why Arceus is Tier 1 than Giratina being such.

Why?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Why?

Because Giratina is not Tier 1 to begin with lmao.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Because Giratina is not Tier 1 to begin with lmao.

No, I'm saying why does it support Tier 1 at all?

 

[StrymULTRA]

No, I'm saying why does it support Tier 1 at all?

Like Palkia is the directions themselves, Giratina lacks those, so they quite of "equal" each other. Arceus is beyond both as those are just aspects of it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Being beyond space and time could just be a tier 2 domain too, you know. Just because something is located beyond it, doesn't mean its tier 1. In my experience, I have seen beyond space and time used quite a lot, sometimes to just talk about a place which has no time and space. I have no idea what the current standards around spaceless and timeless place is, but to me, it is not anything special.

Well, we know that being beyond space and time by itself doesn't reach tier 1, so im not quite sure why this bit was included. The entire post contributes to why it should be tier 1, not just transcendence by itself.

Strym pretty much countered the rest so I won't comment much here.

I don't get this, can you explain a bit more why this evidence is used for tier 1?

Like Strym said, this is to enforce the idea that Arceus and the CT use avatars to interact with the multiverse.

Also earlier you said that Arceus' dimension lacks space and time, so maybe that's why the rings weren't working. If there is some more context around this, please send it my way.

As someone said above, Giratina's Distortion World lacks the concepts of time and space and Hoopa's rings can still forcibly interact with its realm to summon Giratina, so this explanation doesn't work.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I knew something like this would come up, and this misses the point of Hoopa's part of this when the point here is about dimensionality.

Hoopa's infinitely powered rings are able to forcibly connect to the dimensions of the Creation Trio, a feat that it can only do with its True Form, Hoopa Unbound. But even with his true form and true power, Hoopa and his said rings can't under any circumstance interact with Arceus's realm. The proof on why is already posted in the OP to show the difference.

The point here is that Hoopa can forcibly interact with the Creation Trio's dimensions, but it can't do that with Arceus's. This adds to the notion of Arceus's realm having superiority over the others.

I think in this part he was joking regarding his comment about High 3-A

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Christ alive, I haven’t seen a revision so one-sidedly agreed on since the first Megami Tensei one.

Agree, in any case.