A Bunch of Big Boi feats for Dr. Doom-Part 2

[Eseseso]

Okay. I suppose that seems to make sense as well.

Also, Efi and I agreed that Doom's statement of the power of all the world's Vibranium putting him above the Cosmic Cube is valid, and that even if the Cosmic Cube is downgraded to ranging between 3-A and 2-A it'd still be 2-A for Doom since he is referring to the time he himself used the Cosmic Cube, when it one-shot a Doom who had the powers of a Well-Fed Galactus.

I know you disagreed with that before but Efi and I agreed that it's ok.

Hope that isn't an issue.

Also, if you want I can make the edits.

Should we make base Doom: "At Least High 6-C, up to 2-A with absorption and technology/preparation"?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that seems to make sense to me, but let's wait for input from @Eficiente as well.

 

[Eficiente]

I don't know what he wants to add, he can write here what he aims to put in the profile.

 

[Eseseso]

Before I list what I think should be added to Doom's tier, AP, and Durability, may I add that Latveria's page should also have them go up to "possibly 2-A with preparation", since apparently at one point, Doom's scientists even created their own Cosmic Cube, which was able to layer other universes over the prime 616 reality.

 

[Eficiente]

Have each thing in an Unordered List.

 

[Eseseso]

Tier: High 6-C, up to 3-C with Doombots and technology, up to 2-A with preparation and absorption

Attack Potency: Large Island Level (Can trade blows with and overpower the likes of the Thing, destroyed a group of Doombots that were almost comparable to him. Fought and matched Iron Man's Model 29 [The Mighty Avengers #9] and Model 42 Armors [Iron Man: Fatal Frontier #10]), up to Galaxy Level with Doombots (Possesses a small army of Doombots powered by an artificial emulation of the Power Cosmic comparable to the real thing) and technology (Can cut through Hulk's skull with an adamantium chainsaw to perform brain surgery and recreate the Destroyer by draining the Odinforce from a bunch of Asgardians), up to Multiverse Level+ with preparation (After being sent back in time and training his powers in the Black Arts for millions of years, killed a Watcher [Fantastic Four #569]. Can channel the mystic energy that exists in vibranium to connect himself to every piece of vibranium on the planet, gaining a power greater than the Cosmic Cube [Doomwar #1], and even learned how to create his own Cosmic Cube [Fantastic Four #318]. When properly motivated, was stated by Nathaniel Richards to be able to give even the Celestials pause [FF Vol. 1 #14]) and absorption (Has absorbed the powers of a well-fed Galactus [Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Comic Magazine #10], Aron the Rogue Watcher [Fantastic Four #373], and House of M Scarlet Witch [Avengers: Children's Crusade #7 and #8]. Was capable of harnessing Franklin Richard's power overtime [Heroes Reborn: The Return #4]).

Durability: Large Island level (Inside the armor, survives attacks on this level either relatively fine or harmed while running the risk of being killed, but the armor itself is more durable. He can take blows from the Thing, and Iron Man's Model 29 and Model 42 Armors) to Country level (Doom has survived unconscious and with minor cracks being near an explosion over a part of the moon), higher with forcefields (Doom's forcefields are stronger than those of the Invisible Woman, cannot be punctured by Magneto, and have easily blocked attacks from Model Prime Iron Man and Thor), up to Galaxy level with Doombots, up to Multiverse Level+ with technology (Tanked concentrated blasts from 4 Celestials at once for 28 minutes straight [FF Vol. 1 #14]), preparation, and absorption.

 

[Eficiente]

You should edit that to add sources.

2-A technology:

• (AP feat): Staggered Uatu with a blast from his power armor, enough to knock the Cosmic Cube from his hand

I already gave a no to this.

And reading the actual comic that was a surprise attack, as it came out of nowhere when the Watcher got the cube.

• (Durability feat): Tanking concentrated blasts from 4 Celestials at once for 28 minutes straight
  • Which, btw, puts him above the Amped Destroyer Armor Odin used against the Celestials, which was ripped by casual Celestial blasts and totally melted when 8 Celestials blasted him at once

This will have to go on a wait as I was told that much when I brought up that it was priority to make the Celestials' profile reflect how they're not always 2-A

https://vsbattles.com/threads/some-update-for-several-characters-marvel.129587/#post-4461347

• (Durability feat): Tanks a blast from a serious Uatu and is completely unharmed

This "serious" Uatu was just serious in the sense that he was willing to act, we don't know if he even aimed to kill Doom rather than having him knocked. And knocked him he did, Doom wasn't "completely unharmed" but unconscious for seconds. Ben can also harm him and so that "cosmic allow" most likely has some resistance to cosmic powers like Uatu's.

• (Durability feat): Doom's shield protected him and Strange from Mephisto's attacks in Hell (it was when they were leaving Hell after successfully liberating the soul of Doom's mother), and keep in mind that not only is Hell-amped Mephisto already a 2-A but he stomped Dr. Strange. Not to mention he was royally PISSED at this time.

No scans and source, nothing to make out of this.

2-A preparation:

• (AP feat) With millions of years to hone his powers after being sent back in time by the Marquis of Death, killed a Watcher to protect his secrets. And it's pretty clear that Doom was the killer, since he says that he protected his secrets from "prying eyes" while showing the dead Watcher.
  • Also, the fact that Reed Richards confirms the Watcher was killed by an "off the scale power source" only further supports that this was a power feat, NOT a hax feat, and as a bonus implies that when Doom did this, he was above Well-Fed Galactus to some extent, as Reed has measured Well-Fed Galactus's power, such as when (according to Dark Jean Grey's vs battles wiki page), he noted that Dark Phoenix rivaled Galactus

It doesn't imply anything the wording, that's clear wank. The wording isn't good but the feat is good to be added.

• (Arguably AP feat): Learned how to create his own Cosmic Cube, something which is already noted in his intelligence section on Vs Battles wiki AND was in a comic issue involving the Cosmic Cube Post-Retcon Beyonder, who is definitely one of the 2-A versions of the Cosmic Cube

We need to see what feats that has.

• (AP feat): While being charged with all of the world's Vibranium, stated it to be above the power of the Cosmic Cube. (Doomwar #1)
  • I know Ant disagreed with scaling it to the Cosmic Cube but IMO think it is legitimate, especially since Doom's usage of it is considered a 2-A by this wiki, and it's not like Marvel hasn't had 2-A beings not wipe out everyone in the region due to plot armor before.
  • Also, T'challa here talks about how Doom could wipe out Colossus with but a flick of his hand with just one small piece of Vibranium, and while it obviously scales FAR above Colossus already, it shows that Doom is indeed portrayed as a vastly powerful God by the story yet didn't wipe everyone out even though he could've no doubt done so with a flick of his hand, so the argument that "2-A Doom would've killed everyone" kinda falls flat.
  • And even though I keep hearing about downgrades for the Cosmic Cube (or varying power levels), the one Doom used was later used against him in the same story to one-shot Doom who had the powers of the well-fed Galactus (who is definitely a 2-A)

I said what I said before. Which was more or less; Doom's best feat with his cube was saying he could end all of existence, so this would be a 3-A feat at worst.

2-A Absorption:

• Absorbed the power of a well-fed Galactus
• Absorbed the power of Aron, the Rogue Watcher, who should be on par with Uatu
• Was capable of absorbing the power of Franklin Richards
• Absorbed the power of House of M Scarlet Witch, which he himself said was above the Power of the Cosmic Cube Beyonder (which is already noted on the vs battles profile for House of M scarlet Witch)

For Latveria:

• Latveria's own profile should also have them go up to "possibly 2-A with preparation", since apparently at one point, Doom's scientists even created their own Cosmic Cube, which was able to layer other universes over the prime 616 reality.

No scans and sources, nothing to make out of this.

Fought and matched Iron Man's Model 29 and Model 42 Armors

This bit is good to add.

 

[Eseseso]

And reading the actual comic that was a surprise attack, as it came out of nowhere when the Watcher got the cube.

Staggering a 2-A with a surprise attack is still notable. Sure Doom is probably far below Uatu in this scene but just staggering him with a blast is a good support reason for him to downscale.

This will have to go on a wait as I was told that much when I brought up that it was priority to make the Celestials' profile reflect how they're not always 2-A

https://vsbattles.com/threads/some-update-for-several-characters-marvel.129587/#post-4461347

To be fair, both Well-fed Galactus and Franklin Richards are 2-A in large part due to scaling from the Celestials in this comic series, since Well Fed Galactus killed one and Franklin held his own against them. So the Celestials seemed to have been portrayed as 2-A in the story.

This "serious" Uatu was just serious in the sense that he was willing to act, we don't know if he even aimed to kill Doom rather than having him knocked. And knocked him he did, Doom wasn't "completely unharmed" but unconscious for seconds. Ben can also harm him and so that "cosmic allow" most likely has some resistance to cosmic powers like Uatu's.

Ok, this makes sense, considering Doom mentioned the alloys in particular and not the sheer toughness of the armor.

No scans and source, nothing to make out of this.

Actually, I went and reread Triumph and Torment, and that was a major mistake of mine, it was Strange's shield, not Doom's. Huge mistake on my part.

It doesn't imply anything the wording, that's clear wank. The wording isn't good but the feat is good to be added.

As long as the feat itself is accepted, then I'm fine.

We need to see what feats that has.

Well, IIRC the Cube itself didn't have any feats, but it was in a comic that heavily involved the Post-Retcon Beyonder (and explained his post-retcon status as a Cosmic Cube), so the Cube that Doom learned to make should at least scale to the Post-Retcon Beyonder, who is a 2-A.

I said what I said before. Which was more or less; Doom's best feat with his cube was saying he could end all of existence, so this would be a 3-A feat at worst.

When Doom used the Cube, that same story ended with the Cube being used against him by Reed (since in his arrogance with Galactus's powers he dropped the Cube), and the Cube one-shot him even though he possessed the powers of a Well-fed Galactus, making the Cube (and thus the Vibranium armor) 2-A since Doom is referring to when HE used the Cube, and the Cube was 2-A when Doom himself used it.

No scans and sources, nothing to make out of this.

Dude, you already approved of Doom's absorption being 2-A in this thread earlier:

Sure for that.

 

[The_Impress]

Dude, you already approved of Doom's absorption being 2-A in this thread earlier:

I mean one’s mind can just change

 

[Antvasima]

Eficiente seems to make sense above. Thank you for the help.

 

[Eseseso]

So I removed the invalid feats from both the list and the draft write-up.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

What do the rest of you think about the current adjusted version of the draft?

 

[Eseseso]

Btw, I removed Doom tanking Uatu's blast because he pointed out how even if it was a serious blast, Doom's statement about his armor's alloys heavily implies that he was just using special alloys to weaken cosmic blast attacks (which while an impressive feat doesn't scale to durability), but I am keeping him staggering Uatu with a blast because even though it was by surprise, staggering a 2-A with a surprise attack is still impressive.

Of course, the fact that Doom chose to BFR him with the Cosmic Cube heavily implies that Uatu was far above him, but that just means the feat would downscale from Uatu.

 

[Eseseso]

2 more minor things:

1. When Hulk powered the shield that momentarily halted Exitar (who is FAR above the Fourth Host of Celestials, per Thor's statement), it was Doom who made the shield itself, and since in the imgur link with the feat itself, someone in one panel (I can't tell who it is in the panel) says that "Doom's force field was never intended to encompass this kind of space", implying that a main reason for Doom's shield failing was due to it being extended to protect the entire planet when it was apparently meant to be used for a much smaller area (probably Latveria).

2. What do people think about what I suggested for Latveria above, since I've seen on multiple sites/wikis (including Doom's very own vs battles page, under the "Cosmic Artifacts" section of his equipment) that Doom's scientists at one point even created their own Cosmic Cube, which was able to layer other universes over the prime 616 reality.

I have searched as much as possible to find where this actually came from, but found nothing, so help with this second point would be appreciated.

 

[Eseseso]

Uh oh.

I heavily apologize, but I'm rereading the FF Vol 1 series (the one where Doom survives 4 Celestial blasts at once), and while that feat of Doom surviving the Celestials is fine, I found some other stuff that might be of note for not just Doom but also Reed Richard's power with both the Ultimate Nullifier and the Infinity Gauntlet. And the Mad Celestials, maybe.

I'll tell more when I'm done searching.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Eseseso]

Okay. No problem.

Thanks a lot for your patience.

 

[Antvasima]

Again, no problem.

 

[Eseseso]

Ok, so after a last-minute reread of issues 12-15 of FF Vol 1, I found some stuff that may very well affect not just Doom with tech/prep, but also likely Reed Richards with the Ultimate Nullifier, and possibly the Mad Celestials and Reed Richards.

First off, one supporting statement for how powerful Doom is with enough prep time is Nathaniel Richards saying that "When motivated, Victor is an almost unstoppable man...Enough to give even the Godlike Celestials pause".

It's one of those statements that on its own would mean nothing but alongside similar feats is a good supporting statement, especially considering that right after this is when Doom, who mind you has only just been freed from his brain-dampening collar that had been put on him by the Council of Reeds (and Doom was also tricked by Valeria into fighting the Celestials), proceeds to hold off the 4 Mad Celestials for 27-28 minutes. This Doom was NOT at his max preparation prime. That only makes this tech/prep feat of his even more impressive.

A rather iffy feat is Kristoff using some tech (which should be the same as Doom's tech since Kristoff is his adopted son and uses the exact same technology as him) to one-shot a robot that was a Mad Celestial's hand that transformed into a robot. I say it's iffy because we see a random bat-creature character (whose name I couldn't care to remember) block a blast from the robot right before Kristoff kills it.


Thoughts?

Btw, all of this is from FF Vol 1, issues 12-14

 

[Confluctor]

At least 2-A, likely Low 1-A with Ultimate Nullifier

Why? He literally has a low 1a feat with it?

In the link where she stomps all those entities, the only 2 entities in that "fight" who MIGHT be a Low 1-C are Lord Chaos and Master Order, and even then they're likelier to be each 2-A in power (as the Low 1-C is only "possibly" their high-end), due to scaling above the Celestials and the In-Betweener.

There is so much wrong here, but anyway, I am not opposed to listing people with IG by their own feats - like Cap struggled against a low 2c structure with it.

 

[Eficiente]

Staggering a 2-A with a surprise attack is still notable. Sure Doom is probably far below Uatu in this scene but just staggering him with a blast is a good support reason for him to downscale.

This is wank and makes me think that our Marvel and DC powerscaling page should downwrite have a sentence about it so that in the future anyone in my position may not need to bother needing to further explain why it's bs. Watcher is so much stronger than Doom that in that same minute he knocked him out with an attack regardless of Doom having built in Watcher defenses against that, his attack comes out of nowhere in the same panel in which he's shown to be conscious, it only makes Watcher move some a little bit and drop something he was holding, which is the thing Doom needed to actually deal with Watcher, and Doom didn't give any exposition for his blast affecting Watcher. On top of all that, comics like this have a limit to how much they care about powerscaling next to "what it's happening in the story", in the sense that wacky strageries and things to limit other characters are more effective than how they realistically should be to allow characters of different stats to interact with each other. Of all cases like this, target and affect someone you shouldn't with a surprise attack is way too common.

It's clear that you have a bias towards Doom that doesn't make you see things clearly, because if there was something to take out of this it would have more logically been that the Watcher isn't 2-A when taken by surprise, as it is a far, far lesser assumption than Doom being able to use 2-A blasts of energy "with tech"/prep time despite nothing shown portraying that blast as not something he can do any day of the week, as it comes from his armor he always has and not some weird gun, and despite needing monsters to deal with the FF while having this would-be 2-A blasts himself.

 

[Eseseso]

This is wank and makes me think that our Marvel and DC powerscaling page should downwrite have a sentence about it so that in the future anyone in my position may not need to bother needing to further explain why it's bs. Watcher is so much stronger than Doom that in that same minute he knocked him out with an attack regardless of Doom having built in Watcher defenses against that, his attack comes out of nowhere in the same panel in which he's shown to be conscious, it only makes Watcher move some a little bit and drop something he was holding, which is the thing Doom needed to actually deal with Watcher, and Doom didn't give any exposition for his blast affecting Watcher. On top of all that, comics like this have a limit to how much they care about powerscaling next to "what it's happening in the story", in the sense that wacky strageries and things to limit other characters are more effective than how they realistically should be to allow characters of different stats to interact with each other. Of all cases like this, target and affect someone you shouldn't with a surprise attack is way too common.

It's clear that you have a bias towards Doom that doesn't make you see things clearly, because if there was something to take out of this it would have more logically been that the Watcher isn't 2-A when taken by surprise, as it is a far, far lesser assumption than Doom being able to use 2-A blasts of energy "with tech"/prep time despite nothing shown portraying that blast as not something he can do any day of the week, as it comes from his armor he always has and not some weird gun, and despite needing monsters to deal with the FF while having this would-be 2-A blasts himself.

Well ok then, I'll remove it.

 

[The_Impress]

Firstly, why are you downplaying Nebula? When the absolute hell has IG been dependent on the power of the user?

And also, WHY are alternate IGs and UNs getting equalized? You need to prove this, it’s not something you can presume.

And finally, the ”Val strongly implies“ bit is so utterly nothing I can‘t even see how you’re possibly getting any scaling from it unless you’re trying your damndest to find ANYTHING.

 

[Eseseso]

Firstly, why are you downplaying Nebula? When the absolute hell has IG been dependent on the power of the user?

Thanos literally said that Nebula lacked the imagination to properly use the Infinity Gauntlet, which is why he and Adam Warlock scale above her when they have the infinity gauntlet. It's literally stated on their profiles. It's also stated on Thanos's profile that with the Gauntlet he is far above Adam Warlock and Nebula using the Infinity Gauntlet due to him having a better imagination (since the power of the gauntlet is only limited by one's imagination)

And also, WHY are alternate IGs and UNs getting equalized? You need to prove this, it’s not something you can presume.

I can get alternate UN's not being equalized, but I thought that alternate IG's would be comparable to each other.

And finally, the ”Val strongly implies“ bit is so utterly nothing I can‘t even see how you’re possibly getting any scaling from it unless you’re trying your damndest to find ANYTHING.

I mean, Val knows that alternate Reed has the Infinity Gauntlet, yet still thinks that they'll get overwhelmed by the Mad Celestials unless Doom was released.

And she's about as intelligent as Earth 616 Reed himself.

 

[The_Impress]

Thanos literally said that Nebula lacked the imagination to properly use the Infinity Gauntlet

And she continued to prove her wrong.

I can get alternate UN's not being equalized, but I thought that alternate IG's would be comparable to each other.

Why?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Eficiente and Impress.

 

[Eseseso]

And she continued to prove her wrong.

There's nothing really disproving Thanos's claim that she's weaker than the likes of him and Adam due to her lack of imagination.

And if what you're saying actually is true, then the statements of Thanos being above both Adam Warlock and Nebula as well as Adam Warlock being above Nebula should really be removed from their profile.

Why?

Well there's nothing to really prove that alternate universe IG's are weaker than the Earth 616 one, to the best of my knowledge.

 

[The_Impress]

There's nothing really disproving Thanos's claim that she's weaker than the likes of him and Adam due to her lack of imagination.

There is nothing proving it either.

And if what you're saying actually is true, then the statements of Thanos being above both Adam Warlock and Nebula as well as Adam Warlock being above Nebula should really be removed from their profile.

Likely should

Well there's nothing to really prove that alternate universe IG's are weaker than the Earth 616 one, to the best of my knowledge.

Mate, burden of proof is on you for this shit, not me. We don't presume this shit for granted

 

[Eseseso]

Likely should

Then please remove it from Adam and Thano's profiles.

Mate, burden of proof is on you for this shit, not me. We don't presume this shit for granted

It doesn't even matter since Nebula with the IG is probably just as powerful as Thanos is with the IG, so I'll remove all of that IG stuff.

 

[Confluctor]

Then please remove it from Adam and Thano's profiles

???

 

[Eseseso]

???

Since @The_Impress states that Thanos and Adam with the IG are not above Nebula with the IG, the statements on their profiles that state that they are both above Nebula with the IG (and that Adam is above Nebula with the IG) should be removed since they are inaccurate.

The tier doesn't change.

 

[Confluctor]

The power of the gauntlet doesn't change user by user. The only thing changes is how they uses it. Thanos has that statement because he was the best user of the said weapon, warlock was good, but not as good. Their mental shenanigans plays a role in their tiering - mainly because some of them don't want to unleash all of its powers which could end an entire universe, and I don't think anyone of these heroes would want that.

Anyway, this seems irrelevant to the conversation at hand - which is dooms tiering.

 

[The_Impress]

Don't think that statement should be on the AP section then, seems more fit for the Intelligence section, for the record

 

[Eseseso]

The power of the gauntlet doesn't change user by user. The only thing changes is how they uses it. Thanos has that statement because he was the best user of the said weapon, warlock was good, but not as good. Their mental shenanigans plays a role in their tiering - mainly because some of them don't want to unleash all of its powers which could end an entire universe, and I don't think anyone of these heroes would want that.

Anyway, this seems irrelevant to the conversation at hand - which is dooms tiering.

Agreed. I removed the IG stuff, but I kept the rest.

 

[Eseseso]

BUMP

 

[Eficiente]

You should edit that to add sources.

 

[Eseseso]

@Eficiente

I would but...I don't actually know how to put footnotes in on this wiki.

 

[Eficiente]

I do, just add a "(X comic)" at the end of sentences to source them and I will replace that with a real footnote in the profile.

 

[Eseseso]

I do, just add a "(X comic)" at the end of sentences to source them and I will replace that with a real footnote in the profile.

Thanks for the head's up.

I'll do it soon.

Btw I already added the Iron man stuff to the High 6-C section of Doom's profile, because that isn't really controversial.

 

[Eseseso]

I do, just add a "(X comic)" at the end of sentences to source them and I will replace that with a real footnote in the profile.

I just finished.

Thank you for all your help