8-B+/Low 8-A Tournament Round 1, Match 2: Buggy the Clown vs Johnny Test

[RandomGuy2345]

I hope that long ass paragraph I typed in made sense...

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I want to point out that Buggy doesn't have access to the Muggy Balls in this key, since the smaller ones were shown only when he was on Impel Down.
The 8-B key covers his first appearances, during which the balls where cannonballs that had to be fired with a cannon, so I doubt they would have any role in this battle.

Then Johnny will have an even easier time with Buggy. Dodging a few body parts and knives is already easy enough (especially with the stuff I mentioned above).

Johnny will sooner or later get a hold of how Buggy fights, while Buggy will still have to deal with Johnny's evasive/elusive-like abilities.

Detaching/reattaching body parts is nothing new to Johnny as well.

 

[frissen]

Moving like that while in mid air to avoid complex security systems should be enough to avoid a few knives and body parts flying at you. Even if he can't, he can still use his Body Control to avoid it every time, making the projectiles virtually useless.

Forgot about the body control to avoid projectiles.

Considering that Johnny also has Ninja DNA, going by this, hiding from Buggy to avoid attacks and detection would be a perfect strategy for Johnny, as stealth is the essence of ninjutsu.
To further support my claim, this link states the following: "The ninja used their art to ensure their survival in a time of violent political turmoil. Ninjutsu included methods of gathering information and techniques of non-detection, avoidance, and misdirection. Ninjutsu involved training in freerunning, disguise, escape, concealment, archery, and medicine." Freerunning will make it easier for Johnny to avoid Buggy's body parts and/or knives. Freerunning allows you to create your own moves, flows, and lines in different landscapes. People who freerun can also interact with physical obstacles in creative ways, such as running, jumping, and climbing. This will make avoiding Buggy's attacks even easier.

That's all very well and good, but unless Johnny has in-verse feats of freerunning / is shown in character to favor avoidance or misdirection, we must assume having "Ninja DNA" means what it would in real life: his body might be slightly better at learning these techniques, and he might be more likely to favor them. I could come from a long line of ninjas (assuming I was born at a time when ninjas were more common), but I wouldn't be able to instinctively freerun without practice.

 

[TauanVictor]

Buggy FRA.

 

[Kachon123]

The second one wasn't a time skip. Johnny and Dukey both teleport to the lab when they want to go there. The third one you got a bit confused on. I wasn't talking about the scene where Johnny has his backpack on, I'm talking about when the bus comes, and Johnny is shown to be behind the tree

We never saw what Johnny did in between the bus getting to the bus stop, and Johnny being behind the tree, For all we know, he could've just ran there.

 

[SamanPatou]

Well, Johnny has Stealth Mastery, so it'd be even harder for Buggy to track where he's at. Johnny can definitely use this to his advantage.

The arena is an open space, unless Johnny's stealth mastery breaches into invisibility, I don't see it being useful.

Moving like that while in mid air to avoid complex security systems should be enough to avoid a few knives and body parts flying at you. Even if he can't, he can still use his Body Control to avoid it every time, making the projectiles virtually useless. Considering that Johnny also has Ninja DNA, going by this, hiding from Buggy to avoid attacks and detection would be a perfect strategy for Johnny, as stealth is the essence of ninjutsu.

The first point is just downplay, the complex security system was a set of lasers standing still, it's different from avoiding multiple things flying at and around you, like others have said.
And Johnny's body control seems limited to retracting his head, which would help him to avoid a headshot, that's it.
In the same way I can say Buggy can dodge every attack infinitely, since he can scatter he entirety of his body into small parts, which is better than only hiding the head.
As I said, stealth is kinda useless, unless they are

To further support my claim, this link states the following: "The ninja used their art to ensure their survival in a time of violent political turmoil. Ninjutsu included methods of gathering information and techniques of non-detection, avoidance, and misdirection. Ninjutsu involved training in freerunning, disguise, escape, concealment, archery, and medicine." Freerunning will make it easier for Johnny to avoid Buggy's body parts and/or knives. Freerunning allows you to create your own moves, flows, and lines in different landscapes. People who freerun can also interact with physical obstacles in creative ways, such as running, jumping, and climbing. This will make avoiding Buggy's attacks even easier.

All of this is meaningless if Johnny hasn't showed such abilities.
Having ninja DNA means literally nothing, you can only assume he has some predisposition, which is far from him being a master of all the applications of the ninja arts.

Which Johnny should have little to no trouble avoiding.

As before, I can say the same with Buggy avoiding every physical attack Johnny tries to land, or countering it with his abilities and weapons.

The third one you got a bit confused on. I wasn't talking about the scene where Johnny has his backpack on, I'm talking about when the bus comes, and Johnny is shown to be behind the tree.

That's even worse, since Johnny might have gone behind the tree, which isn't even that far from where he was standing.
And still, all of those are situational gags at best.

Then Johnny will have an even easier time with Buggy. Dodging a few body parts and knives is already easy enough (especially with the stuff I mentioned above).

This is downplay once again, I can (once again) say the same thing of Buggy dodging Johnny's attacks, and a "few body" parts can also be like, tens of them, just like more than ten knives that fly around, instead of just being thrown.

Johnny will sooner or later get a hold of how Buggy fights, while Buggy will still have to deal with Johnny's evasive/elusive-like abilities.

The same could be said of Buggy, and Johnny has to deal with an even more elusive opponent, who has true flight and can maneuver all of his body parts through the air.
Also, so far nothing proves Johnny is going to absolutely avoid everything forever, and Buggy is likely to deal more damage and wounds than Johnny on contact.

Detaching/reattaching body parts is nothing new to Johnny as well.

What would this prove?
Johnny can't control his limbs, and he hasn't fought one who could do it, their arms were just standing still.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

That's all very well and good, but unless Johnny has in-verse feats of freerunning / is shown in character to favor avoidance or misdirection, we must assume having "Ninja DNA" means what it would in real life: his body might be slightly better at learning these techniques, and he might be more likely to favor them. I could come from a long line of ninjas (assuming I was born at a time when ninjas were more common), but I wouldn't be able to instinctively freerun without practice.

Having Ninja DNA means you should have the average abilities of a Ninja. The link I showed of Johnny avoiding the complex security systems should be an example of freerunning, which allows the person to create their own moves, flows, and lines in different landscapes. Johnny was in a setting/landscape where there was a complex security system, and he made his own moves, flows, and lines to avoid them. These are basic abilities of a Ninja.

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

Buggy FRA

 

[SamanPatou]

Having Ninja DNA means you should have the average abilities of a Ninja. The link I showed of Johnny avoiding the complex security systems should be an example of freerunning, which allows the person to create their own moves, flows, and lines in different landscapes. Johnny was in a setting/landscape where there was a complex security system, and he made his own moves, flows, and lines to avoid them. These are basic abilities of a Ninja.

Not really, having ninja DNA isn't a defined thing in the first place, you can't just assume he can do things if nothing hints he can.
For what's worth, it can mean Johnny's body is more adapted to perform ninja activities, but we don't even know if he knows how to do them at all.
We go by what's supported by strong evidences, these are fleeble hints.

 

[Kachon123]

Grace

 

[frissen]

Having Ninja DNA means you should have the average abilities of a Ninja. The link I showed of Johnny avoiding the complex security systems should be an example of freerunning, which allows the person to create their own moves, flows, and lines in different landscapes. Johnny was in a setting/landscape where there was a complex security system, and he made his own moves, flows, and lines to avoid them. These are basic abilities of a Ninja.

How is it freerunning when he's literally falling and not running? This link states that "Freerunning involves interacting with physical obstacles in creative ways, such as by climbing, jumping or running," which is not what Johnny does in the security system. He doesn't interact with the lasers, he merely contorts his body around them, which is impressive, but doesn't support your claim that he is proficient in freerunning.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

The first point is just downplay, the complex security system was a set of lasers standing still, it's different from avoiding multiple things flying at and around you, like others have said.

Having Ninja DNA means you should have the average abilities of a Ninja. The link I showed of Johnny avoiding the complex security systems should be an example of freerunning, which allows the person to create their own moves, flows, and lines in different landscapes. Johnny was in a setting/landscape where there was a complex security system, and he made his own moves, flows, and lines to avoid them. These are basic abilities of a Ninja.

And Johnny's body control seems limited to retracting his head, which would help him to avoid a headshot, that's it.

He can also hide in the small little cracks in the arena, which you've said yourself was valid.

In the same way I can say Buggy can dodge every attack infinitely, since he can scatter he entirety of his body into small parts, which is better than only hiding the head.
As I said, stealth is kinda useless, unless they are

No he can't. Johnny is literally undetectable due to Body Control (hiding in the cracks), and being undetectable is one of the main objectives of being a Ninja.

All of this is meaningless if Johnny hasn't showed such abilities.
Having ninja DNA means literally nothing, you can only assume he has some predisposition, which is far from him being a master of all the applications of the ninja arts.

Non-detection (Stealth Mastery), Avoidance and Freerunning (Acrobatics) are all things I've already proved here. Doing what Johnny in the link I've showed was an example of Avoidance/Freerunning. It doesn't even matter that he was avoiding lasers that were standing still. That wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point was that Johnny can avoid a few knives and body parts coming at him with little trouble. If he does get stabbed once, he can still brush it off and continue fighting.

As before, I can say the same with Buggy avoiding every physical attack Johnny tries to land, or countering it with his abilities and weapons.

Body Control.

That's even worse, since Johnny might have gone behind the tree, which isn't even that far from where he was standing.
And still, all of those are situational gags at best.

You don't know that. The situational gags point is valid, so I'll concede on this point due to that.

This is downplay once again, I can (once again) say the same thing of Buggy dodging Johnny's attacks, and a "few body" parts can also be like, tens of them, just like more than ten knives that fly around, instead of just being thrown.

Body Control and Ninja DNA handle this pretty well. Johnny can fit in things as small as a vacuum cleaner. I'm pretty sure that avoiding tens of knives and/or body parts shouldn't be too much of a problem.

The same could be said of Buggy, and Johnny has to deal with an even more elusive opponent, who has true flight and can maneuver all of his body parts through the air.
Also, so far nothing proves Johnny is going to absolutely avoid everything forever, and Buggy is likely to deal more damage and wounds than Johnny on contact.

Body Control (once again), covers this. Concealing himself into places he normally can't fit in already seals the deal. Doesn't help that Johnny already has a small stature. Freerunning/Avoidance (which I've proved already Johnny can do) can also cover this.

What would this prove?
Johnny can't control his limbs, and he hasn't fought one who could do it, their arms were just standing still.

Bro what??? For most of the episode, Johnny and Blind-Bling were hit with an experiment that can detach/reattach limbs. Bling-Bling ends up stealing Johnny's body, and then Johnny has to find a way to get his body back. Seeing someone that's able to detach/reattach their limbs won't be anything new to Johnny.

Not really, having ninja DNA isn't a defined thing in the first place, you can't just assume he can do things if nothing hints he can.
For what's worth, it can mean Johnny's body is more adapted to perform ninja activities, but we don't even know if he knows how to do them at all.
We go by what's supported by strong evidences, these are fleeble hints.

Johnny avoiding the complex security system is already enough evidence. He created his own moves, flows and lines to avoid the lasers, which is literally what Freerunning is.

How is it freerunning when he's literally falling and not running? This link states that "Freerunning involves interacting with physical obstacles in creative ways, such as by climbing, jumping or running," which is not what Johnny does in the security system. He doesn't interact with the lasers, he merely contorts his body around them, which is impressive, but doesn't support your claim that he is proficient in freerunning.

In the same exact link, it says the following: "Freerunners can create their own moves, flows and lines in different landscapes." This is literally what Johnny did to avoid the security sytem.

 

[frissen]

In the same exact link, it says the following: "Freerunners can create their own moves, flows and lines in different landscapes." This is literally what Johnny did to avoid the security sytem.

You can continue to insist otherwise, but I refuse to believe that falling past a laser system is an example of freerunning. Besides, if Johnny were truely proficient in freerunning, you should be able to find more clips then just that one.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

You can continue to insist otherwise, but I refuse to believe that falling past a laser system is an example of freerunning. Besides, if Johnny were truely proficient in freerunning, you should be able to find more clips then just that one.

A room that is covered with lasers (laser system) - Landscape

Johnny uses different moves, flows, and lines to avoid them - Literally what freerunning is stated to be.

I don't know what else to tell you.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I also forgot to mention these 3 feats.

Johnny is skilled enough to pop 2 water balloons with a badge while blind.

Was able to sense his dad coming into the room.

Johnny was also able to sense his dad giving his toys away.

Johnny should be able to sense Buggy's attacks coming (despite them being unpredictable) and avoid them.

 

[frissen]

I don't know what else to tell you.

Honestly at this point we're getting close to just parroting the same response over and over again, I'll just agree to disagree and others can form their own opinions based on our arguments.

Johnny is skilled enough to pop 2 water balloons with a badge while blind.

This is only applicable if he's been shown to hammerspace throwing darts or equivalent. Remember, shuriken or equivalent don't work as well because buggy is immune to slashing.

Was able to sense his dad coming into the room.

Johnny was also able to sense his dad giving his toys away.

These feats are both related to his dad, and neither proves combat applicability. Additionally, in the first he could have conceivably smelled his dad's cleaning supplies, and in the second he could have seen his dad out the window through the corner of his eye.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Honestly at this point we're getting close to just parroting the same response over and over again, I'll just agree to disagree and others can form their own opinions based on our arguments.

I'm fine with that.

This is only applicable if he's been shown to hammerspace throwing darts or equivalent. Remember, shuriken or equivalent don't work as well because buggy is immune to slashing.

I'm not saying he'd be able to do this, I was just saying Johnny should be skilled to fight while blind (unless I'm exaggerating here).

These feats are both related to his dad, and neither proves combat applicability.

Um, okay? It doesn't matter who it's related to. By that logic, Timmy's Extrasensory Perception can only be used on Vicky, which is extreme downplay. If I'm able to sense things happening before I can see them for myself, it doesn't what I sensed their. If I was able to tell you were at my door without actually seeing you, that means by your logic, I can only sense things that apply to you? That makes no sense. It doesn't matter who or what I sensed.

Additionally, in the first he could have conceivably smelled his dad's cleaning supplies, and in the second he could have seen his dad out the window through the corner of his eye.

Then Dukey would've smelt the cleaning material as well, since he's a dog, and dog's have a very keen sense of smell. Okay, now this is just downplay. If he saw with the corner of his eye his dad, then he would've immediately mentioned what was going on instead of saying there was a disturbance in the toy-kid continuum.

 

[frissen]

Um, okay? It doesn't matter who it's related to. By that logic, Timmy's Extrasensory Perception can only be used on Vicky, which is extreme downplay. If I'm able to sense things happening before I can see them for myself, it doesn't what I sensed their. If I was able to tell you were at my door without actually seeing you, that means by your logic, I can only sense things that apply to you? That makes no sense. It doesn't matter who or what I sensed.

Then Dukey would've smelt the cleaning material as well, since he's a dog, and dog's have a very keen sense of smell. Okay, now this is just downplay. If he saw with the corner of his eye his dad, then he would've immediately mentioned what was going on instead of saying there was a disturbance in the toy-kid continuum.

Okay, maybe that was a bit extreme, but there's still no proof that he has combat applicable Extrasensory Perception. Especially for a character with toon force setting up the plot for an episode, it seems a bit of a stretch to say he could sense attacks coming at full combat speed. But I'm more willing to concede that he might be able to, say, tell where Buggy is without looking at him.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Another example: Daidouji is able to sense/detect other Shinobi, does that mean she can only sense/detect Shinobi? That makes no sense.

 

[frissen]

Another example: Daidouji is able to sense/detect other Shinobi, does that mean she can only sense/detect Shinobi? That makes no sense.

You've made your point. Like I said, I'm just skeptical it could be used to sense attacks coming.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Okay, maybe that was a bit extreme, but there's still no proof that he has combat applicable Extrasensory Perception. Especially for a character with toon force setting up the plot for an episode, it seems a bit of a stretch to say he could sense attacks coming at full combat speed. But I'm more willing to concede that he might be able to, say, tell where Buggy is without looking at him.

I mean, does it really matter what you sensed? If I can sense where other people is at without looking at them, then I'd be able to sense when they're going to attack as well, since I can tell where they are at.

You've made your point. Like I said, I'm just skeptical it could be used to sense attacks coming.

I ended up posting the comment the moment you made yours lol.

 

[frissen]

I mean, does it really matter what you sensed? If I can sense where other people is at without looking at them, then I'd be able to sense when they're going to attack as well, since I can tell where they are at.

If I stood behind you for ten seconds pointing a gun at you, even if you sensed I was there, you couldn't sense when I pulled the trigger and thus couldn't aimdodge the bullet. (You could, however, run to the side, but that's less effective)

 

[RandomGuy2345]

If I stood behind you for ten seconds pointing a gun at you, even if you sensed I was there, you couldn't sense when I pulled the trigger and thus couldn't aimdodge the bullet. (You could, however, run to the side, but that's less effective)

Say if you had invisibility, and I ended up sensing you were there, trying to sneak up on me. I move out of harm's way before you can do anything potentially harmful. That's basically how this fight would go. Your point does hold merit to an extent.

Johnny should be able to win this via that and being able to dodge or avoid Buggy's attacks (especially with that Body Control he has).

 

[frissen]

Say if you had invisibility, and I ended up sensing you were there, trying to sneak up on me. I move out of harm's way before you can do anything potentially harmful. That's basically how this fight would go. Your point does hold merit to an extent.

Johnny should be able to win this via that and being able to dodge or avoid Buggy's attacks (especially with that Body Control he has).

I think your point is valid, although I don't think Johnny could dodge everything. He'll be scratched up coming into cqc, but not too much, especially with the pain tolerance. However, I think that into cqc, Johnny doesn't actually have that much of an advantage. Buggy can attack from multiple sides with body control, has higher LS, and is still a skilled fighter (although not a master like Johnny apparently is). So, I'll still vote Buggy.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Grace already, huh

Next 2 matches?

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I think your point is valid, although I don't think Johnny could dodge everything.

Agreed. He will definitely get hit a few times, though his Pain Tolerance allows him to fight through that.

He'll be scratched up coming into cqc, but not too much, especially with the pain tolerance.

I see Johnny dodging the attacks, as they'll be coming right in his face. Johnny can also heal via regen (though he won't constantly regenerate). Body Control exists as well.

However, I think that into cqc, Johnny doesn't actually have that much of an advantage. Buggy can attack from multiple sides with body control, has higher LS, and is still a skilled fighter (although not a master like Johnny apparently is). So, I'll still vote Buggy.

Buggy's body becomes more susceptible to attacks when it's split apart. The opponent can do all sorts of things to Buggy's separated body, like groin kicks, or tying up the body parts (and Johnny has shown to use his Hammerspace to tie things up). Higher LS would work if he's able to catch Johnny, which would be hard to do, due to Johnny's evasive/elusive-like abilities. Johnny should have no problem avoiding a hold from Buggy. Johnny's main problem is dealing with Buggy's versatility. I feel like Johnny would win this more often than not.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Grace already, huh

Next 2 matches?

I'd like to wait until grace period ends.

 

[SamanPatou]

Grace is on, but I still want to address some points, tho I will avoid repeating myself if that is to be the answer.

He can also hide in the small little cracks in the arena, which you've said yourself was valid.

It is theoretically possible, but first larger cracks have to be made, since the very little interspaces are smaller than a vacuum cleaner.
And it's still depending on whether or not Johnny would do it in character, but even then, what's he gonna do? He enters a crack and then stands there, he can't shoot from afar or nothing, and Buggy would most likely notice him, and then either attack or wait for him to come out.

Body Control.

His body control isn't that crazy, really, and Buggy's own body control is way better in that sense.
Also, now that I notice, Johnny did the feat while in the superhero form, which means it could be limited to that, since that form seems to be an amp of sort.

You don't know that.

You don't know if he really teleported either.

Bro what??? For most of the episode, Johnny and Blind-Bling were hit with an experiment that can detach/reattach limbs. Bling-Bling ends up stealing Johnny's body, and then Johnny has to find a way to get his body back. Seeing someone that's able to detach/reattach their limbs won't be anything new to Johnny.

That's completely different from fighting someone who can deattach and freely control through the air many more body parts in a unique way.
It's like saying I have experience against a fire manipulation users because I've used matches and lighters before.


ESP was already addressed by Frissen, but I agree that it might be useful if it were to work, but it's far from saying is precise enough to be combat applicable and mixed with other abilities in order to effectively counter projectiles.

Agreed. He will definitely get hit a few times, though his Pain Tolerance allows him to fight through that.

Yes, but he would still sustain the damage, and being stabbed in critical points, organs and losing blood would greatly still hinder him and possibly overcome his pain tolerance.

Buggy's body becomes more susceptible to attacks when it's split apart. The opponent can do all sorts of things to Buggy's separated body, like groin kicks, or tying up the body parts (and Johnny has shown to use his Hammerspace to tie things up). Higher LS would work if he's able to catch Johnny, which would be hard to do, due to Johnny's evasive/elusive-like abilities. Johnny should have no problem avoiding a hold from Buggy. Johnny's main problem is dealing with Buggy's versatility. I feel like Johnny would win this more often than not.

It is correct, but remember that Buggy was dealing with two people at a time, not only Luffy was stronger than him, but him and Nami were actively cooperating to attack him while he was distracted.
Here Johnny is alone, and the huge LS difference makes it difficult for Johnny to even keep the body parts still while tying them up, let alone that other pieces could focus on him.

 

[Whiteoak019]

Buggy FRA

 

[Psychomaster35]

Grace is over

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

Grace is over

Nice

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

Will this be added or not?

 

[Psychomaster35]

You can go right ahead. Right now, we are waiting for the next matches just as the OP promised.

 

[SamanPatou]

I have added the match, and I'm closing the thread since the debate is over.