- 2,677
- 780
Ok, basically I spent the last week reading the official guide and making various research, which lead me to make some interesting discoveries that could bring upon some pretty big changes for the whole verse.
This thread will focus on a variety of arguments, both revision proposals and discussion of topics that COULD lead to revisions, such as: Changes to Armstrong's EXCELSUS feat (revision proposal), Blade Mode as a multiplier (discussion), Ripper Mode being a multiplier (revision proposal), possible speed and AP scaling (discussion). Buckle up, 'cause this is gonna be a LOOOOOOONG one.
Let's start with the calc changes, since they are by far the most significant part of this whole thing.
Armstrong's calc has a few problems, 2 to be precise: 1 is the shear strength values used, the other is the fact that it completely misses a very, VERY big factor i will describe later.
Let's start with the values. The source used for these is Wikipedia, where it's stated that CNT's shear strength AS OF TODAY is between "a few", 17 and 63 GPas. The problem here is pretty evident as soon as you stop and think about it. These values are based on OUR CNT, and this material as a whole is still very new for us. If you actually go to that very Wikipedia page, right next to the 63GPas value, there is a quotation to an article published in "Nature Nanotechnology", in which we can read that, and i quote: "'Here we report multiwalled carbon nanotubes with a mean fracture strength >100 GPa [...]. These results are in excellent agreement with quantum-mechanical estimates for nanotubes containing only an occasional vacancy defect, and are Ôê╝'80% of the values expected for defect-free tubes". What this article says is that CNTs are supposed to have a shear strength of 100 GPas, and the only reason why the CNT we have access to haven't reached that value yet is due to various defects and errors during the production. Furthermore, by digging a little deeper, I found a very interesting article (this one) that supports this idea, along with experimental evidence that if treated and built properly, CNTs are supposed to reach a strength value of over 100 Gigapascals.
Now I don't think i need to tell you why I think that in MGR they should have DEFINITELY reached a point where they are able to build defect-free CNT, after all, they managed to mass-manufacture this material 8 years before MGR and we can clearly see that they are able to build unbelievably flexible and advanced structures with them. If we, with our, let's be honest here, archaic technology compared to that of the MG setting, already managed to find the problem and create CNT with a strength that isn't TOO far off the mark (63GPAs), it's only logical that a verse in which this material is literally mass produced and extensively used by every noteworthy military organization would have figured out how to perfect the creation in order to obtain the best possible solution.
So this is my first proposal: Changing the values used in the calc from those 3 to 100 GPas (the strength would be superior to 100, but let's use it for clarity sake). If this change isn't accepted, I also propose to simply pick the High-End of that feat. Going for the mid-end means that the EXCELSUS would be made of CNT that is only middle of the road for today's standards, and this is simply illogical when talking about a futuristic verse like MGR, they would surely be using CNT that is AT LEAST on par with our own strongest ones for an important project such as EXCELSUS.
The second problem is that the calc overlooks an important factor, that being a big crater left by the EXCELSUS' explosion. This isn't TOO evident, but it's quite noticeable once you really look at it. Right here you can see it, but it's sort of covered by the smoke from the explosion, what really makes it clear are all the shots of Bladewolf, who is standing on a piece of the EXCELSUS that is shown to be parallel to the ground but is way above both Armstrong and Raiden, along with all the pieces of rock and debris surrounding the arena, which can't come from anywhere other than a crater (I will post screenshots in the comments, so as to not make this post too long).
My proposal here is to have this crater calculated and factor it into the calc, it would constitute a very valid upgrade.
With this out of the way, let's move on to the Blade Mode discussion. The Blade Mode paragraph on the guide says this (again, screenshots in the comments) "Enemies will continue to move and attack Raiden, but they are by default 50% slower than Raide [...] If, however, you activate Blade Mode after weakening an enemy, the slow-motion effect is improved to a mere 10% of the standard game speed [...] This "Super" slow-motion effect accurs when you kill an opponent, break an enemy's guard or destroy their armor". This basically tells us that normal BM is by default a 2x multiplier that becomes 10x when he opens up an enemy or something like that. Now, this doesn't change the fact that BM is 10x, since Raiden can still move at speeds that are 10 times faster than his base, but it gets weird when we get to the Ripper Mode paragraph, which states that "If you enter Blade Mode while Ripper Mode is active, the super slow motion effect accurs automatically". What do we make of this? Do we turn normal BM into a 2x amp and RMBM into a 10x or, since Ripper Mode is never stated anywhere to be a speed amp, just strength, do we keep it the way it is, since even base BM achieves 10x speeds, it simply does it on some conditions (which can simply be considered game mechanics), I personally think the latter option is better, but let's discuss.
Now let's talk about Ripper Mode being a multiplier. Some of you may remember this calc, it was done by comparing how many hits it took base Raiden to kill normal opponents and how many Ripper Mode attacks it took; the result was 7x, with almost (with the exception of 2 enemy types, which went down respectively 6x and 8x times faster) all the enemies in the game going down with a seventh of the normal hits required. For a while this calc was accepted, until this thread happened, in which this calc is removed and considered invalid due to it, and i quote: "using Gameplay Mechanics" and nothing more in its calculation. I gave a read at the Official Guide, and under the Ripper Mode paragraph it says that "[...] This enable him to inflict far greater damage, eliminating weaker enemies almost instantly [...]". What this means is that Ripper mode allowing Raiden to almost instantly kill mobs that previously required numerous attacks is not merely Gameplay Mechanic, but something supported and backed up by the offical guide itself, which means that the way in which the multiplier was obtained is sound, thus making the multiplier valid and usable. The idea of RM being such a drastic power-up is also supported by canonical scaling, which i will further analyze now
Scaling. This section mainly revolvs around the relation between Monsoon, Raiden and Armstrong in regards to power.
There are quite a few factors that indicate that Monsoon is the strongest WOD: Armstrong shows great respect for him in the Sam DLC, Sundowner is impressed by Raiden having killed him and (most importantly) he can keep up with Ripper Mode Raiden as well as, if not better than, how the other WODS deal with base Raiden. We know from the official guide and the game itself that Ripper Mode is a significant boost in power for Raiden, which naturally means that Monsoon is significantly stronger than all the other WODs. All of this would make it fairly comprehensible to say that Monsoon would be at least comparable (weaker, definitely, but still) to Armstrong in terms of power. Now, we all know how big of a difference there is between base Raiden and Armstrong, I personally think it's at the very least reasonable to assume that the difference between base Raiden and Monsoon would be similar, although smaller than that. With this in mind it's very clear how big of a boost Ripper Mode is and that multiplier doesn't seem so absurd either. I would also like to talk about Armstrong scaling to Monsoon's detachment tech. We know that Armstrong is stronger than Monsoon, and it's very likely that Armstrong fought him and beat him, do you think this info is enough for us to say that Armstrong is faster than Monsoon's body-detachment? After all, how could he have beaten him without bypassing that ability, considering that he doesn't use EMPs or weapons of any sort?
CHANGES BEING PROPOSED - Changing the values to Armstrong's feat from 3, 17 and 63 GPas to 100 GPas, in accordance with the proof I've shown of strength below 100 GPas being the result of defects during the production due to our inexperience with the material, something the MGR verse definitely doesn't suffer from - If the first change isn't accepted, to take into consideration the high end value of that feat, due to it being the most likely option - Taking the crater into consideration for Armstrong's feat - Ripper Mode going back to being a 7x multiplier and thus effecting the various ratings, in accordance with the proof I've shown of the way in which the multiplier is calc'd being supported by the official guide and the multiplier itself reflecting in the canonical scaling of the series
TOPICS OF DISCUSSION - Possibly changing the amp Blade Mode gives -Scaling Armstrong's speed to Monsoon's detechment tech
This thread will focus on a variety of arguments, both revision proposals and discussion of topics that COULD lead to revisions, such as: Changes to Armstrong's EXCELSUS feat (revision proposal), Blade Mode as a multiplier (discussion), Ripper Mode being a multiplier (revision proposal), possible speed and AP scaling (discussion). Buckle up, 'cause this is gonna be a LOOOOOOONG one.
Let's start with the calc changes, since they are by far the most significant part of this whole thing.
Armstrong's calc has a few problems, 2 to be precise: 1 is the shear strength values used, the other is the fact that it completely misses a very, VERY big factor i will describe later.
Let's start with the values. The source used for these is Wikipedia, where it's stated that CNT's shear strength AS OF TODAY is between "a few", 17 and 63 GPas. The problem here is pretty evident as soon as you stop and think about it. These values are based on OUR CNT, and this material as a whole is still very new for us. If you actually go to that very Wikipedia page, right next to the 63GPas value, there is a quotation to an article published in "Nature Nanotechnology", in which we can read that, and i quote: "'Here we report multiwalled carbon nanotubes with a mean fracture strength >100 GPa [...]. These results are in excellent agreement with quantum-mechanical estimates for nanotubes containing only an occasional vacancy defect, and are Ôê╝'80% of the values expected for defect-free tubes". What this article says is that CNTs are supposed to have a shear strength of 100 GPas, and the only reason why the CNT we have access to haven't reached that value yet is due to various defects and errors during the production. Furthermore, by digging a little deeper, I found a very interesting article (this one) that supports this idea, along with experimental evidence that if treated and built properly, CNTs are supposed to reach a strength value of over 100 Gigapascals.
Now I don't think i need to tell you why I think that in MGR they should have DEFINITELY reached a point where they are able to build defect-free CNT, after all, they managed to mass-manufacture this material 8 years before MGR and we can clearly see that they are able to build unbelievably flexible and advanced structures with them. If we, with our, let's be honest here, archaic technology compared to that of the MG setting, already managed to find the problem and create CNT with a strength that isn't TOO far off the mark (63GPAs), it's only logical that a verse in which this material is literally mass produced and extensively used by every noteworthy military organization would have figured out how to perfect the creation in order to obtain the best possible solution.
So this is my first proposal: Changing the values used in the calc from those 3 to 100 GPas (the strength would be superior to 100, but let's use it for clarity sake). If this change isn't accepted, I also propose to simply pick the High-End of that feat. Going for the mid-end means that the EXCELSUS would be made of CNT that is only middle of the road for today's standards, and this is simply illogical when talking about a futuristic verse like MGR, they would surely be using CNT that is AT LEAST on par with our own strongest ones for an important project such as EXCELSUS.
The second problem is that the calc overlooks an important factor, that being a big crater left by the EXCELSUS' explosion. This isn't TOO evident, but it's quite noticeable once you really look at it. Right here you can see it, but it's sort of covered by the smoke from the explosion, what really makes it clear are all the shots of Bladewolf, who is standing on a piece of the EXCELSUS that is shown to be parallel to the ground but is way above both Armstrong and Raiden, along with all the pieces of rock and debris surrounding the arena, which can't come from anywhere other than a crater (I will post screenshots in the comments, so as to not make this post too long).
My proposal here is to have this crater calculated and factor it into the calc, it would constitute a very valid upgrade.
With this out of the way, let's move on to the Blade Mode discussion. The Blade Mode paragraph on the guide says this (again, screenshots in the comments) "Enemies will continue to move and attack Raiden, but they are by default 50% slower than Raide [...] If, however, you activate Blade Mode after weakening an enemy, the slow-motion effect is improved to a mere 10% of the standard game speed [...] This "Super" slow-motion effect accurs when you kill an opponent, break an enemy's guard or destroy their armor". This basically tells us that normal BM is by default a 2x multiplier that becomes 10x when he opens up an enemy or something like that. Now, this doesn't change the fact that BM is 10x, since Raiden can still move at speeds that are 10 times faster than his base, but it gets weird when we get to the Ripper Mode paragraph, which states that "If you enter Blade Mode while Ripper Mode is active, the super slow motion effect accurs automatically". What do we make of this? Do we turn normal BM into a 2x amp and RMBM into a 10x or, since Ripper Mode is never stated anywhere to be a speed amp, just strength, do we keep it the way it is, since even base BM achieves 10x speeds, it simply does it on some conditions (which can simply be considered game mechanics), I personally think the latter option is better, but let's discuss.
Now let's talk about Ripper Mode being a multiplier. Some of you may remember this calc, it was done by comparing how many hits it took base Raiden to kill normal opponents and how many Ripper Mode attacks it took; the result was 7x, with almost (with the exception of 2 enemy types, which went down respectively 6x and 8x times faster) all the enemies in the game going down with a seventh of the normal hits required. For a while this calc was accepted, until this thread happened, in which this calc is removed and considered invalid due to it, and i quote: "using Gameplay Mechanics" and nothing more in its calculation. I gave a read at the Official Guide, and under the Ripper Mode paragraph it says that "[...] This enable him to inflict far greater damage, eliminating weaker enemies almost instantly [...]". What this means is that Ripper mode allowing Raiden to almost instantly kill mobs that previously required numerous attacks is not merely Gameplay Mechanic, but something supported and backed up by the offical guide itself, which means that the way in which the multiplier was obtained is sound, thus making the multiplier valid and usable. The idea of RM being such a drastic power-up is also supported by canonical scaling, which i will further analyze now
Scaling. This section mainly revolvs around the relation between Monsoon, Raiden and Armstrong in regards to power.
There are quite a few factors that indicate that Monsoon is the strongest WOD: Armstrong shows great respect for him in the Sam DLC, Sundowner is impressed by Raiden having killed him and (most importantly) he can keep up with Ripper Mode Raiden as well as, if not better than, how the other WODS deal with base Raiden. We know from the official guide and the game itself that Ripper Mode is a significant boost in power for Raiden, which naturally means that Monsoon is significantly stronger than all the other WODs. All of this would make it fairly comprehensible to say that Monsoon would be at least comparable (weaker, definitely, but still) to Armstrong in terms of power. Now, we all know how big of a difference there is between base Raiden and Armstrong, I personally think it's at the very least reasonable to assume that the difference between base Raiden and Monsoon would be similar, although smaller than that. With this in mind it's very clear how big of a boost Ripper Mode is and that multiplier doesn't seem so absurd either. I would also like to talk about Armstrong scaling to Monsoon's detachment tech. We know that Armstrong is stronger than Monsoon, and it's very likely that Armstrong fought him and beat him, do you think this info is enough for us to say that Armstrong is faster than Monsoon's body-detachment? After all, how could he have beaten him without bypassing that ability, considering that he doesn't use EMPs or weapons of any sort?
CHANGES BEING PROPOSED - Changing the values to Armstrong's feat from 3, 17 and 63 GPas to 100 GPas, in accordance with the proof I've shown of strength below 100 GPas being the result of defects during the production due to our inexperience with the material, something the MGR verse definitely doesn't suffer from - If the first change isn't accepted, to take into consideration the high end value of that feat, due to it being the most likely option - Taking the crater into consideration for Armstrong's feat - Ripper Mode going back to being a 7x multiplier and thus effecting the various ratings, in accordance with the proof I've shown of the way in which the multiplier is calc'd being supported by the official guide and the multiplier itself reflecting in the canonical scaling of the series
TOPICS OF DISCUSSION - Possibly changing the amp Blade Mode gives -Scaling Armstrong's speed to Monsoon's detechment tech
