7-B [Path to the Throne] Tournament: Brook vs Frogadier

[noninho]

Well, Frogadier only got Pokedex entries for 4 games, all of them in Gen 6, & 2 of those Pokedex entries were repeat, for a total of only 2 unique Pokedex entries for it. 1 of those 2 is:

X	It can throw bubble-covered pebbles with precise control, hitting empty cans up to a hundred feet away.

The fact that it throws bubble-coated pebbles & the bubbles on its back suggests it uses "Frubbles" or something similar.

& considering how we scale Pokemon's LS, & that a Garchomp was restrained by using Frubble's to pin a Garchomp's feet...

Well, lemme ask this: Brook's profile lacks keys for his Lifting Strength. Does he need any revisions or upgrades to his LS?

Lifting Strength: Athletic Human (Physically stronger than Usopp)

If a panicked Garchomp that was screaming in pain could get locked in place, I'm not sure how an Athletic Human LS character is breaking out, & AFAIK, Pre-Timeskip Brook lacks the body control or such to separate his feet bones. (Not to mention I doubt he'd run well without them.)

Also, for what it's worth, Bulbapedia's blurb says this about Froakie's Frubbles vs Wobbuffet:
"When it flings the protective Frubbles that cover its back—which isn’t technically a move, and therefore not affected by Wobbuffet’s Mirror Coat".

This MIGHT exempt it from hitting with Mind Reader, since, the in-game description for that is: "The user senses the target's movements with its mind to ensure its next attack does not miss the target."
But that'd be mixing the anime & game by saying Frubbles aren't a move & the game's description of Mind Reader using the word "attack". (Not to mention, logically, being able to sense someone's move should let you reliably aim for their feet or such.)

Other means to help it hit might be Smokescreen to obscure Frubbles on the ground, or, if it's possible, using Double Team to have the illusionary copies mimicking the Frubble throwing, so it's unclear which to avoid. (I'm unsure if Double Team copies do actually imitate motions, but that'd be quite an undertaking to check, as it has literally dozens of anime appearances.)

Frogadier might also not use it because Frubbles are arguably, somewhat more of its pre-evolution's technique.

Or it could just rely on Brooke not realizing. He isn't dumb. Comical as he can be, I can imagine Brooke would have the sense to dodge even bubbly things thrown at it, as opposed to staring or poking at the bubbles or panicking.
But if Brooke dodges the bubbles thrown at his feet or such, & then later on in the fight, the Frubbles are still on the ground, he might not be paying attention to the ground as he runs to his opponent, or heck, does his iconic slow walk during his humming slash techniques.
After all, if your opponent is jumping around high or throwing projectiles or other ninja techniques, you might not be paying attention to the ground, especially when it just looks like there's some bubbles on the ground, which might be unassuming enough that Brooke might not realize the threat, if the Frubbles don't do anything when they miss & hit the floor or such.

Still, if it survives Brook doing a humming slash, & realizes it needs to stop him, this might be its most effective means of movement control. I doubt Brook would have a means of breaking free, considering the LS as I understand it.

sorry, now i've fast-readed some of it and realized it's not all about the anime, now that i know some of it i'm knowlegdeable about, imma read this part and answer

 

[noninho]

That's stuffel That's comparable you drongo

 

[GoldenScorpions]

Voting Brook per the reasons mentioned

 

[GoldenScorpions]

And that's grace

 

[noninho]

And that's grace

not at all until everyone is satisfied with the discussion, no?
also, i'm still discussing with a frogadier supporter : P

 

[noninho]

1 of those 2 is:

X	It can throw bubble-covered pebbles with precise control, hitting empty cans up to a hundred feet away.

The fact that it throws bubble-coated pebbles & the bubbles on its back suggests it uses "Frubbles" or something similar.

& considering how we scale Pokemon's LS, & that a Garchomp was restrained by using Frubble's to pin a Garchomp's feet...

ok, it's a precision and range feat, not that it matters much for winning against Brook but...

& that a Garchomp was restrained by using Frubble's to pin a Garchomp's feet...

ok, then it's a really sticky move, how does that matter? Even more when you say you're not sure if Frogadier can do so.

But that'd be mixing the anime & game by saying Frubbles aren't a move & the game's description of Mind Reader using the word "attack".

we really can't mix anime with game and from every in-game move that cause paralysis and frogadier can learn, i've only seen Fling and Lick, which both would demand physical touch...well, if i can argue that Brook may react with ease to a ranged move, i can say even more about he trying physical moves.

Other means to help it hit might be Smokescreen to obscure Frubbles on the ground, or, if it's possible, using Double Team to have the illusionary copies mimicking the Frubble throwing, so it's unclear which to avoid. (I'm unsure if Double Team copies do actually imitate motions, but that'd be quite an undertaking to check, as it has literally dozens of anime appearances.)

they would at max imitate the movement of Frogadier doing the bubbles, but all of them would go out from one of the frogadiers, thus, giving the info of which one is the original and breaking it's original purpose of giving more evasiveness (unfortunatelly the anime appearances doesn't matter via the game working on a different way)

But if Brooke dodges the bubbles thrown at his feet or such, & then later on in the fight, the Frubbles are still on the ground

1-for how long?
2-how big are them? from what i saw, they're big enough so that the skeleton may not forget about them or step by accident
3-could anime frogadier use it? can game frogadier use them? would he IC do it?
4-Brook*

After all, if your opponent is jumping around high or throwing projectiles or other ninja techniques, you might not be paying attention to the ground, especially when it just looks like there's some bubbles on the ground, which might be unassuming enough that Brooke might not realize the threat, if the Frubbles don't do anything when they miss & hit the floor or such.

feats that tell me that Brook really pays attention to what's going on on the whole situation of the battle (unfortunatelly i haven't found no wiki page for them in english, but you should be fine translating ptbr to english via the google translate tool):
here we see brook killed a ton of enemies at once... ants. if not the same size, smaller than the frubbles.
and here he passes by a "barrier" of dust made by a chain. passing by/into a chain and dust barrier, slashed the enemy, and did so again and even humiliated the guy.
we really can see he's paying attention (and is fast af)

Still, if it survives Brook doing a humming slash, & realizes it needs to stop him, this might be its most effective means of movement control. I doubt Brook would have a means of breaking free, considering the LS as I understand it.

as you can see above, his movement control doesn't matter, because there's a huge probability he can't use it and if he can, it won't be useful for him against the skeleton... yohohoho

 

[Imaginym]

holy shit, no, it really can't be the anime:

Bewear and it's anime version have different profiles and holy shit how big of a gap (3-C to High 7-A)
and guess which version is also stated to be comparable to Piplup and Rhyhorn..?
Yeah, we can't be talking about the anime Froakie nor Frogadier...so sorry.

The Bewear in the anime is blatantly an exception among its species. It's frequently shown to be unusually strong, & repeatedly takes Team Rocket back to its base because it thinks of them like family for some reason, throughout most of Alola. It clashed with Pheromosa, & IIRC, other Ultra Beasts.
Typical Bewear, much less Stufful do not scale the way that individual Bewear does.

Hence why it has its own profile, that is specified as the one from the anime. Like Ash's Pikachu, Bewear (Anime) is an exceptional individual.

Our profiles for Pokemon are generally species profiles with statistics based on evolutionary stages scaling, with sources from multiple media, the games & anime, especially, but we do not consider the Anime's individual, exceptional Bewear as applicable for scaling to others of its species, evolutionary line, nor for scaling to Pokemon of similar evolutionary stages.

& also, as @DaReaperMan said, it's Stuffull that's Low 7-B & would thus be comparable to Froakie.
But not to Frogadier; Current scaling has 1st stages at Low 7-B because of Rhyhorn's feat & 2nd stages at 7-B because of a Dragonair destroying a city with a Hyper Beam.

Since this post is explaining Pokemon scaling mostly, I'll respond to your most recent post separately.

 

[Imaginym]

ok, it's a precision and range feat, not that it matters much for winning against Brook but...

The point of this is it would be able to throw Frubbles accurately.
Also, due to evolutionary stage scaling, we'd scale a middle evolution Pokemon's range to:
Standard melee range, hundreds of meters with most attacks

For examples of this being done, here's some profiles that do that:

Charizard

Charizard is a draconic, bipedal Pokémon and the final stage of the Charmander evolutionary line. It is primarily orange with a cream underside from the chest to the tip of its tail, which burns with a sizable flame. Charizard has a long neck, small blue eyes raised nostrils, and two blunt horns...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Range: Standard Melee Range, Hundreds of Meters with most attacks | Standard Melee Range, Hundreds of Meters with most attacks | Standard Melee Range, Tens of Kilometers with most attacks | Tens of Meters, Tens of Kilometers with most attacks

Victreebel

Tier: At most Low 7-B | 7-B | High 7-A Key: Bellsprout | Weepinbell | Victreebel Name: Bellsprout | Weepinbell | Victreebel Origin: Pokémon Gender: Male or Female (1 female to 1 male) Age: Varies Classification: Flower Pokémon | Flycatcher Pokémon Powers and Abilities: Superhuman Physical...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Range: Standard melee range, hundreds of meters with most attacks | Standard melee range, hundreds of meters with most attacks | Standard melee range, tens of kilometers with most attacks

As is, Greninja's profile (The profile that Frogadier is a part of.) says:
Range: Standard melee range, extended melee range with Cut and Aerial Ace. Tens of kilometers with most attacks like Water Shuriken

But that's because Greninja's range hasn't been Keyed to account for Evolutionary stages.
Frogadier should be at "Standard melee range, hundreds of meters with most attacks".
I forget the exact details of the range basises. (& having lower feats doesn't mean you can't achieve feats.) IIRC, it may have to do with attacks using weather manipulation.

ok, then it's a really sticky move, how does that matter? Even more when you say you're not sure if Frogadier can do so.

The relevance is it held down a Garchomp by its feet, immobilizing it.
Brooke's win condition, as I understand it, is walking up, or moving at high speed & slashing.

Brook can not do that if his feet are stuck to the ground.

& Frogadier has notably good precision, & Brooke may not be able to realize those bubbles have those properties from seeing it, especially if he dodges them. Not to mention the risk of stepping on any on the ground that have been thrown if he's walking or running during combat without seeing the ground. A possibility if considering stuff like Smokescreen, Double Team or Frogadier's agility diverting his attention.

Frogadier should be able to create Frubbles; Its back appears to be covered in them, & it throws rocks coated in bubbles; These bubbles, given they are ostensibly staying on the rocks during throws, are likely sticky like Frubbles.

Frogadier using them this way is more a matter of will rather than can; It seems plausible it can use this ability of its pre-evolution, but it might not be in-character to do so.

we really can't mix anime with game and from every in-game move that cause paralysis and frogadier can learn, i've only seen Fling and Lick, which both would demand physical touch...well, if i can argue that Brook may react with ease to a ranged move, i can say even more about he trying physical moves.

Again, content from both anime & games is considered for Pokemon profiles.
(Also, you forgot Bounce, which, if we're considering gameplay, has a 30% chance of inflicting paralysis when it hits. But I'm not concerned with Paralysis. Like you said, I don't consider it very reliable.)
Honestly, why did you bring up paralysis when I was talking about Frubbles?

they would at max imitate the movement of Frogadier doing the bubbles, but all of them would go out from one of the frogadiers, thus, giving the info of which one is the original and breaking it's original purpose of giving more evasiveness (unfortunatelly the anime appearances doesn't matter via the game working on a different way)

It could be argued that the move can be used in multiple different ways. & again, I explained that the Evasion Boost is an abstraction by gameplay in place of actually representing creating a bunch of illusionary clones/afterimages in the games, which would be impractical to replicate, & stat boosts are mostly only considered for moves when their effects cannot be easily quantified for our purposes.

Lore takes priority over game mechanics, but in some cases, we don't know clearly HOW much something is meant to influence a stat, like Dragon Dance, hence referencing values in gameplay.
In Double Team's case we understand why it has an effect on evasiveness; Because having illusionary copies makes it harder to hit the real thing.

1-for how long?

That I'm not sure. I haven't watched the episodes featuring Frubbles, & I hadn't seen much details of how long they persist on Bulbapedia.

2-how big are them? from what i saw, they're big enough so that the skeleton may not forget about them or step by accident

Bulbapedia doesn't give many images of how big Frubbles are.
There's this image, but it kinda has poor perspective.
Considering Pokedex entries, a single Froakie should probably be able to fit many Frubbles on its back, as its back sprite shows.
Entries for reference:

X	It secretes flexible bubbles from its chest and back. The bubbles reduce the damage it would otherwise take when attacked.
Y	It protects its skin by covering its body in delicate bubbles. Beneath its happy-go-lucky air, it keeps a watchful eye on its surroundings.

3-could anime frogadier use it? can game frogadier use them? would he IC do it?

I do not recall if Ash's Froakie, after evolving, did use Frubbles, but its possible other Frogadier might.
& as mentioned, the fact Frogadier have what look like Frubbles on their back & throw bubble-coated rocks (& a property of Frubbles is being sticky, which would explain bubbles sticking to a rock.) it seems plausible for it to use them.

4-Brook*

My bad, thank you.

feats that tell me that Brook really pays attention to what's going on on the whole situation of the battle (unfortunatelly i haven't found no wiki page for them in english, but you should be fine translating ptbr to english via the google translate tool):
here we see brook killed a ton of enemies at once... ants. if not the same size, smaller than the frubbles.

Those were his enemies. His focus would be on the ground, because his enemies are very low to the ground. If you're fighting ant-sized creatures, of course you look at the ground.
But if you're fighting someone larger than that (A typical Frogadier is about 60 cm. Admittedly, quite small compared to Pre-Timeskip Brook's 266 cm.) that jumps around a lot, you have less reason to be staring at the floor.

and here he passes by a "barrier" of dust made by a chain. passing by/into a chain and dust barrier, slashed the enemy, and did so again and even humiliated the guy.
we really can see he's paying attention (and is fast af)

Wasn't this by him speedblitzing Zeo? Passing through a circle of dust made from a chain is easier if you move faster than the chain, & you don't necessarily need to pay attention if you're far faster.
Also, "barrier" of dust how?

as you can see above, his movement control doesn't matter, because there's a huge probability he can't use it and if he can, it won't be useful for him against the skeleton... yohohoho

I'd say it very much would matter, especially since Frogadier has means to divert Brook's attention from the floor, as well as obscure it (Smokescreen.), & has notably good aim that it might be able to hit Brook's feet just by throwing regularly.
Not to mention Brook might not realize not to step on the thrown bubbles he dodged earlier, as he might not realize they're still a hazard.

 

[noninho]

bloody hell, here we go again...

 

[Imaginym]

bloody hell, here we go again...

Sorry for any bother.

 

[noninho]

Sorry for any bother.

no problem, i just get scared by staring at huge texts, at first
but it's actually my favorite hobby nowadays where i can't play games and i can type at work lol

 

[noninho]

Our profiles for Pokemon are generally species profiles with statistics based on evolutionary stages scaling, with sources from multiple media, the games & anime, especially, but we do not consider the Anime's individual, exceptional Bewear as applicable for scaling to others of its species, evolutionary line, nor for scaling to Pokemon of similar evolutionary stages.

how so if it's pretty much impossible to compare even some of the basic techniques? and also, when i get statements from games, only, how can you say it's comparable to anime? (yeah, even without watching the anime i could notice bewear was an "outlier", but the point's still there)

But that's because Greninja's range hasn't been Keyed to account for Evolutionary stages.
Frogadier should be at "Standard melee range, hundreds of meters with most attacks".
I forget the exact details of the range basises. (& having lower feats doesn't mean you can't achieve feats.) IIRC, it may have to do with attacks using weather manipulation.

hundreds of meters is an exaggeration, since we're talking about the game Frogadier and the move he has with the most range is Hydro Pump (we don't get weather moves since it's optional equip, via having a natural range of moves he can get via evolution and those being obtainable only via TM/TR), which can make him "Standart melee range, several meters with some attacks".
anyway, i don't think range matters, Brook will be fast af and for sure prepared.

The relevance is it held down a Garchomp by its feet, immobilizing it.
Brooke's win condition, as I understand it, is walking up, or moving at high speed & slashing.

Brook can not do that if his feet are stuck to the ground.

First prove to me that Frogadier (in-game and ic) can use this move, then we talk about he hitting it (it really matters, so i won't respond until you do so, for Frubbles points except for the next cuz it's minor)

Honestly, why did you bring up paralysis when I was talking about Frubbles?

sticky thing that makes brook being unable to move and if we count IG Frogadier can do that, would be paralyzing move+bubble/bubble beam (i'm absolutelly sure he won't Fling or Bounce on a f*cking bubble (i'm internally laughing way to hard for a frog "doing a bubble-breath-attack" and bouncing on them for 30% of them paralyzing a skeleton lol) nor lick them all lightspeed so them can try to hit Brook and then he does something)

There's this image, but it kinda has poor perspective.

"403 Forbidden", mate : c
my point was he's paying attention so he'll dodge them with ease (and, again, the battle won't take too long/he won't forget about them for it to be a bother if they don't hit)

Considering Pokedex entries, a single Froakie should probably be able to fit many Frubbles on its back, as its back sprite shows.
Entries for reference:

X	It secretes flexible bubbles from its chest and back. The bubbles reduce the damage it would otherwise take when attacked.
Y	It protects its skin by covering its body in delicate bubbles. Beneath its happy-go-lucky air, it keeps a watchful eye on its surroundings

my man, at max the bubbles can be/become bigger, it has nothing about being sticky
and it's Froakie, not Frogadier who says
"

X Omega Ruby	It can throw bubble-covered pebbles with precise control, hitting empty cans up to a hundred feet away.

A feet for precision and for UP TO a hundred, reinforcing what i said above of several meters

Y Alpha Sapphire	Its swiftness is unparalleled. It can scale a tower of more than 2,000 feet in a minute’s time.

Resumable by 'he's fast : >'
"
if you argue that Frogadier also has what his other evolution had, we can say he has bubbles of variable size, is fast and precise and has a nice range...cool.

Also, "barrier" of dust how?

via the wiki's description of the fight. Sorry again, it's in ptbr.

Wasn't this by him speedblitzing Zeo?

which was possible via a technique like Song of Humming, since . other . pirates . from the same place where this battle happened (multiple straw-hats were in different fights with different members) had the same Relativistic speed (its a feat for Post-TS, but his speed haven't changed, so i really think it counts)

Those were his enemies. His focus would be on the ground, because his enemies are very low to the ground. If you're fighting ant-sized creatures, of course you look at the ground.

woundn't it be the same with a lot of bubbles that doesn't explode immideatelly on touching the ground (brook would notice this)?

 

[Imaginym]

how so if it's pretty much impossible to compare even some of the basic techniques? and also, when i get statements from games, only, how can you say it's comparable to anime? (yeah, even without watching the anime i could notice bewear was an "outlier", but the point's still there)

Both Pokemon are using the same "move". It could be argued that the same technique can be used in different ways.
Frankly, I feel that if you are so concerned about this discrepancy in move portrayal differences, making a thread on the General Discussion, Questions & Answers or Content Revision board might be suited for that.

hundreds of meters is an exaggeration, since we're talking about the game Frogadier and the move he has with the most range is Hydro Pump (we don't get weather moves since it's optional equip, via having a natural range of moves he can get via evolution and those being obtainable only via TM/TR), which can make him "Standart melee range, several meters with some attacks".

As mentioned earlier, I don't remember the exact Pokemon profile standards, including for range justifications, so I'm unsure our current Pokemon profile standards would agree with that assessment.
Where are you getting "several meters" range for Hydro Pump anyway?
ESPECIALLY when Frogadier has a Pokedex entry about it being able to land precise hits from 100 feet away.

(& AFAIK, Pre-Timeskip Brook doesn't have musical powers, so even several meters would be higher range than Brook's Standard Melee Range.)

anyway, i don't think range matters, Brook will be fast af and for sure prepared.

Speed is Equalized, Brook only has his Speed Bost during his attacks, not at all times.
Also, prepared for what? I mean, prepared for combat sure, but they have no prior knowledge of each other.

First prove to me that Frogadier (in-game and ic) can use this move, then we talk about he hitting it (it really matters, so i won't respond until you do so, for Frubbles points except for the next cuz it's minor)

1. According to the anime, Frubbles aren't technically an Attack; This was the reason the anime gave for Jessie's Wobbuffet's Mirror Coat being thwarted by Frubbles.
2. It's not entirely unreasonable to assume a Pokemon has the capabilities of its pre-evolution.
3. We can see what resemble Frubbles on its back.
4. It already seems to use them for the bubble-coated pebbles it's stated to throw in its Pokedex entries; 1 of the most distinctive properties of Frubbles is being adhesive, & the bubbles staying on rocks being thrown would suggest adhesiveness.

sticky thing that makes brook being unable to move and if we count IG Frogadier can do that, would be paralyzing move+bubble/bubble beam (i'm absolutelly sure he won't Fling or Bounce on a f*cking bubble (i'm internally laughing way to hard for a frog "doing a bubble-breath-attack" and bouncing on them for 30% of them paralyzing a skeleton lol) nor lick them all lightspeed so them can try to hit Brook and then he does something)

Frogadier can't actually learn Bubblebeam (IKR? Absurd.) by any means. It can learn Bubble.
However, as I've already said, I don't consider the other Speed reduction or Paralysis effects of Frogadier's other moves reliable enough as win conditions here.
Not to mention Frogadier is mobile, ninja-like, & known for projectile use, it's probably not going for close-up combat, perhaps especially if it sees Brook trying to slash it with a sword.

"403 Forbidden", mate : c

Weird for Bulbapedia to do that. Here's a less direct link to that image on Bulbapedia:

File:Ash Froakie Frubble.png - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

my point was he's paying attention so he'll dodge them with ease (and, again, the battle won't take too long/he won't forget about them for it to be a bother if they don't hit)

But would he remember their exact position while he's fighting an opponent that may be jumping & climbing walls?
& is there the possibility he'd assume the bubbles AREN'T a threat, especially after being dodged & them landing without exploding or something?

my man, at max the bubbles can be/become bigger, it has nothing about being sticky

Do you not recall my recounting of their properties in the anime?
& the Pokedex entries don't say the bubbles/Frubbles can change size.

and it's Froakie, not Frogadier who says
"

X Omega Ruby	It can throw bubble-covered pebbles with precise control, hitting empty cans up to a hundred feet away.

A feet for precision and for UP TO a hundred, reinforcing what i said above of several meters

Y Alpha Sapphire	Its swiftness is unparalleled. It can scale a tower of more than 2,000 feet in a minute’s time.

You may have misspoken. As I'm reading this, your post says "and it's Froakie, not Frogadier who says".
Those are Frogadier's Pokedex entries, NOT Froakie's.

Resumable by 'he's fast : >'

I don't know what you mean by this.

if you argue that Frogadier also has what his other evolution had, we can say he has bubbles of variable size, is fast and precise and has a nice range...cool.

Repeating myself in saying that it's not entirely unreasonable to assume a Pokemon has the capabilities of its pre-evolution.
A Frogadier should be able to do like a Froakie, & make bubbles/Frubbles of size with similar variance.
& Frogadier should be fast & precise with at least the range capabilities its Pokedex entries ascribe to it, Pokemon evolutionary stage statistics scaling for range complications aside.

via the wiki's description of the fight. Sorry again, it's in ptbr.

Ah, I see. From what I recall of that fight, Zeo was threatening harm to those entering the circle, indirectly, via the more direct harm of his weapon, not via the dust being dangerous.

which was possible via a technique like Song of Humming, since . other . pirates . from the same place where this battle happened (multiple straw-hats were in different fights with different members) had the same Relativistic speed (its a feat for Post-TS, but his speed haven't changed, so i really think it counts)

My point in mentioning that was that he wouldn't need to pay attention to Zeo or his weapon's motions much if he's speedblitzing him.

woundn't it be the same with a lot of bubbles that doesn't explode immideatelly on touching the ground (brook would notice this)?

In theory, yes. He could conclude maybe they explode on contact or, for example, maybe conclude that they're some kind of sea water technique, given sea water's renowned danger to Devil Fruit users like him in One Piece.
He doesn't have prior knowledge, so there's a lot of other things he could assume about bubbles on the ground thrown at him other than "Those are so sticky that I'll get stuck in place if I step on them!", no?

 

[noninho]

The page Reloaded and I lost what I was writing...
Imma sleep and write it tomorrow morning again

 

[Imaginym]

The page Reloaded and I lost what I was writing...
Imma sleep and write it tomorrow morning again

I don't blame you. I'm a little tired myself.
Hopefully this is still enjoyable for you, despite our disagreements & what misunderstandings we may have.

 

[noninho]

As mentioned earlier, I don't remember the exact Pokemon profile standards, including for range justifications, so I'm unsure our current Pokemon profile standards would agree with that assessment.
Where are you getting "several meters" range for Hydro Pump anyway?
ESPECIALLY when Frogadier has a Pokedex entry about it being able to land precise hits from 100 feet away.

Hydro Pump is described as a "high volume and high pressure" water move. Both would lead to something about a few meters, and Frogadier's feat too, so several is even being exaggerated a bit

(& AFAIK, Pre-Timeskip Brook doesn't have musical powers, so even several meters would be higher range than Brook's Standard Melee Range.)

Idk what afaik means, and also what this statement means since...one of his first apparitions was literally doing that

You may have misspoken. As I'm reading this, your post says "and it's Froakie, not Frogadier who says".
Those are Frogadier's Pokedex entries, NOT Froakie's.

This was on purpose, it was like "Frogadier who says that below"
And after each entry I've talked a lil about it, which explains:

A feet for precision and for UP TO a hundred, reinforcing what i said above of several meters

This

Resumable by 'he's fast : >'

This
And

if you argue that Frogadier also has what his other evolution had, we can say he has bubbles of variable size, is fast and precise and has a nice range...cool.

This.

Also, prepared for what? I mean, prepared for combat sure

You answered what I was about to respond but with more words and repeating myself

1. According to the anime, Frubbles aren't technically an Attack; This was the reason the anime gave for Jessie's Wobbuffet's Mirror Coat being thwarted by Frubbles.

Then he can't use it, since we're talking about a game guy who's somewhat comparable to its apparition in an anime, not the exact same thing.

2. It's not entirely unreasonable to assume a Pokemon has the capabilities of its pre-evolution.
3. We can see what resemble Frubbles on its back.
4. It already seems to use them for the bubble-coated pebbles it's stated to throw in its Pokedex entries; 1 of the most distinctive properties of Frubbles is being adhesive, & the bubbles staying on rocks being thrown would suggest adhesiveness.

Which would mean he has bubbles who can vary si-- I already responded it all!

if you argue that Frogadier also has what his other evolution had, we can say he has bubbles of variable size, is fast and precise and has a nice range...cool.

Via the pokedex entries for both him and froakie, we have no proof he could shoot bubbles who are sticky. If we stretch WAAAAAAAAAY too much to say he can, it would be via like, licking all of them
He'd have to do it REALLY fast and would only work 30% of time...via lick only paralyzing 30% of the time.

Frogadier can't actually learn Bubblebeam (IKR? Absurd.) by any means. It can learn Bubble.
However, as I've already said, I don't consider the other Speed reduction or Paralysis effects of Frogadier's other moves reliable enough as win conditions here.

(Wtf how does he not lmao game freak is making a lot of sense these days)
He'd have to use them on the bubbles to MAYBE get them to be able to paralyze/movement control Brook, but really improbable that he can manage to do it and more so that it can actually work on Brook

Repeating myself in saying that it's not entirely unreasonable to assume a Pokemon has the capabilities of its pre-evolution.
A Frogadier should be able to do like a Froakie, & make bubbles/Frubbles of size with similar variance.
& Frogadier should be fast & precise with at least the range capabilities its Pokedex entries ascribe to it, Pokemon evolutionary stage statistics scaling for range complications aside.

Talked about it;
On the anime, not the game;
Yes he is, but now which precision matters if Brook will just blitz him in no time?

My point in mentioning that was that he wouldn't need to pay attention to Zeo or his weapon's motions much if he's speedblitzing him.

Yes he would..?
Not because you and your car are faster than the bike guy on the crosswalk that you don't have to pay attention for the bike guy, or else you'll hit him as much as the chain would hit Brook.

In theory, yes. He could conclude maybe they explode on contact or, for example, maybe conclude that they're some kind of sea water technique, given sea water's renowned danger to Devil Fruit users like him in One Piece.

He don't need to lose time thinking about that
Put yourself in his position: a frog is half your size, is about 10m of you and all the sudden the frog throws bubbles at you
You'd FOR SURE think "oh shit that's dangerous let's not touch it"

He doesn't have prior knowledge, so there's a lot of other things he could assume about bubbles on the ground thrown at him other than "Those are so sticky that I'll get stuck in place if I step on them!", no?

He doesn't need assumptions. The point above+ "wtf all that time he only threw bubbles only once and until now they're still there???? Ok, something's really wrong with this bubbles and I absolutely cannot touch them"

 

[Imaginym]

Idk what afaik means, and also what this statement means since...one of his first apparitions was literally doing that

AFAIK = "As Far As I Know".
What's what happened in that fight? Sorry.

Then he can't use it, since we're talking about a game guy who's somewhat comparable to its apparition in an anime, not the exact same thing.

Pokemon are multi-media species profiles, they're only individuals when the individual is notably exceptional, as in the case of Anime Bewear or Ash's Pikachu, etc.
There should be other Froakie & Frogadier besides Ash's capable of using Frubbles, including in the game's universe, arguably.

Via the pokedex entries for both him and froakie, we have no proof he could shoot bubbles who are sticky. If we stretch WAAAAAAAAAY too much to say he can, it would be via like, licking all of them

You don't consider bubbles staying on rocks flying through the air as proof of stickyness?

Talked about it;
On the anime, not the game;
Yes he is, but now which precision matters if Brook will just blitz him in no time?

There is the question of, what is Brook's vertical range when doing this attack.

He don't need to lose time thinking about that
Put yourself in his position: a frog is half your size, is about 10m of you and all the sudden the frog throws bubbles at you
You'd FOR SURE think "oh shit that's dangerous let's not touch it"

That is reasonable. Although, I feel like we disagree a bit on how persistently Brook would remember bubbles present on the ground, even if he has no idea what they do.
(Something that could be made harder if Frogadier uses Smokescreen.)

He doesn't need assumptions. The point above+ "wtf all that time he only threw bubbles only once and until now they're still there???? Ok, something's really wrong with this bubbles and I absolutely cannot touch them"

That's fair, I guess.

Frankly, I'm a little exhausted of this match, & while I think Frubbles may be a win con if used skillfully. Plus, there may be other elements like Double Team, effects of Torrent (I doubt Brooke is KOing with one use of his Speed Amping techniques, as he's only 25% stronger.

If Frubbles weren't declared "technically not a move", I'd argue Frogadier could use Mind Reader to ensure they hit. Arguably, that might still work.

However, even after Brook goes fast enough that Frogadier realizes it needs to keep Brook from going fast enough, I'm not sure it'd be IC enough for it to use its pre-evolution's technique in that way.

There might be a chance it could win via exploiting the environment (Since it should have good climbing & juimping skills.) & focus on ranged attacks, since Brook's mobility might not be as good, even if Brook can temporarily go faster with his attacks, & that might be in-character.

But it feels like Brook would just be argued to skill stomp against that as well.

So I'll tentatively vote Brook mid-high difficulty for skill reasons.

 

[noninho]

i was about to answer, but i noticed you voted for brook so now's just waiting for grace period ending

i also hope this discussion wasn't frustrating for you

 

[Imaginym]

i was about to answer, but i noticed you voted for brook so now's just waiting for grace period ending

I mean, you could debate for thoroughness & accuracy's sake. Just because I've come to the same conclusion doesn't mean all my reasoning is right.

i also hope this discussion wasn't frustrating for you

Thank you very much for that sentiment.

 

[noninho]

I mean, you could debate for thoroughness & accuracy's sake. Just because I've come to the same conclusion doesn't mean all my reasoning is right.

nah, all my point was around he can't do the move you talked about and the other resources he has not mattering via Brook's huge skill
it was healthy and cool, if you concede, i'm also cool.

 

[Imaginym]

nah, all my point was around he can't do the move you talked about and the other resources he has not mattering via Brook's huge skill

I disagree that it can't, moreso feel that it won't, but I don't want to debate that point with you anymore, if you'll forgive my saying so.

it was healthy and cool, if you concede, i'm also cool.

Good to know!
No offense meant with all of this, I assure you. I appreciate a thorough debate, but I'm a bit worn out on this topic.

 

[noninho]

I disagree that it can't, moreso feel that it won't, but I don't want to debate that point with you anymore, if you'll forgive my saying so.

nah. won't and can't are just different ways of getting in the same place, so i'm ok with all of that ending this way

 

[GoldenScorpions]

Your are both commendable for that debate!