2B Base Mario & Luigi Removal (Remove Dream Team Tier)

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

By completely happenstance, I ended up finding out that somehow, Mario was being scaled to the Zeekeeper and Dreamy Luigi. I quickly began skimming through recent CRTs to see how the hell this got applied. It initially seemed like this addition was made to Mario's profile out of the blue on April 17th with no CRT attached, but after a bit of research, I found this CRT:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/mario-bros-profile-overhaul-s-2.149705/

In this thread, Luigi was given a "Dream Team" tier, which is scaled to 2B off of Mario fighting alongside Giant Luigi against Zeekeeper, as well as the brothers later on fighting Dreamy Bowser. Before I get into any of the issues or discrepancies with these feats, I'd like to bring up something incredibly major of note that was somehow completely overlooked in this thread.

There is a discussion rule for the Super Mario Bros series, that has existed since at least 2017, that specifically prohibits scaling Mario or Luigi to the Zeekeeper or Dreamy Bowser.

This change should not have even gone through, not until this discussion rule was removed, at the very least. This should be a pretty clear cut removal, but just to drive the point home further, I will bring up the issues with scaling to these feats in the first place anyways.

1. Base Mario shouldn’t scale to Dreamy Luigi or Zeekeeper. The main argument for him scaling is that in the Giant Dreamy Luigi battle against the Zeekeeper, Mario can assist Dreamy Luigi’s attacks during Bros Moves. A notable example would be the Drill Stomp move, where Mario spins faster in order to help Luigi spin into a Drill-like stomp, increasing the damage of his stomp attack. Using this to scale Base Mario to Dreamy Luigi is kind of a really, really silly idea. All this attack really, truly does, is cause Mario to help Luigi spin faster. Ultimately, Luigi is still the one doing the brunt of the damage and attacking with his own body, and is the one who does literally all of the heavy lifting throughout the entire fight. Hell, the act of even helping to spin Dreamy Luigi’s massive body leaves Mario so exhausted he can’t move for an entire turn afterwards.

For a comparison, would we scale Remy from Ratatouille to Linguini’s physical stats just because Remy can physically control him and cause his body to move around and do acts for him? No, we don’t.

2. Mario scaling to Dreamy Bowser is a massive outlier, because it would imply that a massively amped Bowser is either equal to or weaker than base form Bowser from past games. It creates a loop wherein Mario > Dreamy Bowser > Bowser = Mario, which makes 0 sense at all.

3. Narratively, the Bros scaling to the Dream Stone doesn't make any sense in the first place. Mario and Luigi enlisted the help of the Zeekeeper because they couldn't even get past a barrier created by the Dream Stone. The Bros go straight to enlist the Zeekeeper after realizing they can't bypass the barrier, meaning there's no argument they would somehow grow several leagues of power to match up to the Stone's might such a short time after getting the Zeekeeper's help either.

I'd also just like to add, that I think the way this feat was added was incredibly underhanded and disingenuous overall. 2B Base Form Mario and Luigi scaling is incredibly contentious, and is a massive jump in power from where their current rating stands (3C), and the fact this was bundled into a random Profile Upgrade, of which there were many, and Mario was sneakily scaled to it without any major CRT noting it a couple weeks later, overall makes this whole thing feel kinda ****** up. If you look within the thread itself even realized or questioned the major jump in stats, at most they just questioned if Dreamy Luigi scaled to Dreamy Bowser. The thread itself never even made mention of making such a major statistics change, something like that should be mentioned as a cliffnote for the profile at the least. It should also be noted that the description for Luigi scaling to 2B in his Dream Team tier is extremely deceptive in how its worded. It makes no mention of Dreamy Luigi being the one who fights Zeekeeper, instead just saying "Giant Luigi" as opposed to "Giant Dreamy Luigi", which makes it at a glance seem more legitimate.

So in conclusion, we should:

-Remove Mario's "Dream Team" key
-Change Luigi's "Dream Team" key to a "Dreamy Luigi" key

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, having contributed to this in a soda-induced haze, I naturally agree. Very funny that this came out of a mostly unrelated conversation.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

In Luigi's case, I only remember it being added to the Dreamy Luigi character specifically. But I do still agree it's fairly outlierish for regular Mario and Luigi to have those keys.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

In Luigi's case, I only remember it being added to the Dreamy Luigi character specifically. But I do still agree it's fairly outlierish for regular Mario and Luigi to have those keys.

I’ve got no issue with Dreamy Luigi scaling to 2B, that’s pretty blatant. My issue just comes with base Luigi & Mario getting scaled, and Luigi’s tier listed as 2B is specifically himself in Dream Team, not his Dreamy Luigi key

Dreamy Luigi used to have his own profile iirc but it was cannabalized into the main Luigi profile alongside that profile overhaul iirc?

 

[Mephistus]

Leaning to agree on the first point.

Mario getting stronger by fighting guys in the castle after its breached is pretty much the only real reason AD (narratively) would kick in, which him getting stronger is a thing, but if we use their given "consistent" tiers then I totally understand the ludicrousness of the jump.

Its "more" consistent if you bundle it with scaling from base Antasma being 2-C on account of absorbing multiple entire dreams to make himself more powerful if base Mario doesn't require Dreamy Luigi to aid him for defense or attack and can have him removed from Mario's body during the fight and even win without him, if you have reservations with using Bowser at all. Dreambert can clash with him in base in the real world. And I guess there is the Paper Mario crossover scaling from the still growing Void.

 

[JJSliderman]

Tbh Mario scales to amped versions of Bowser a lot in this series, probably the most notable being Galaxy 2 and scaling to Grand Star amped Bowser. Not to mention that whenever Mario and Luigi team up against normal Bowser, they usually beat him fairly easily in a cutscene scenario. So it’s really more like Mario and Luigi > Dreamy Bowser > Bowser ~ Mario or Luigi separately.

I think it should stay, although there was arguments for Dreamy Bowser and the stone to be downgraded to make the scaling a tad more consistent.

I think there’s 2 possible reasonings for what happens in the game if we’re trying to maintain a consistency angle:

1. Bowser didn’t absorb the full power of the Dream Stone due to only swallowing the shards of it.

2. Getting the Zeekeeper Bros. Attack is canon and somehow he’s amping the Bros. in the real world against DB.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Its "more" consistent if you bundle it with scaling from base Antasma being 2-C on account of absorbing multiple entire dreams to make himself more powerful if base Mario doesn't require Dreamy Luigi to aid him for defense or attack and can have him removed from Mario's body during the fight and even win without him, if you have reservations with using Bowser at all. Dreambert can clash with him in base in the real world. And I guess there is the Paper Mario crossover scaling from the still growing Void.

Even though Mario can technically fight against and survive attacks from Antasma, it's obviously not what you're intended to do, and is overwhelmingly more difficult without Dreamy Luigi. From a narrative perspective, Mario shouldn't scale to Antasma, it's like scaling V1 to a black hole (which he can "survive".... by being reduced to one health every time).

Tbh Mario scales to amped versions of Bowser a lot in this series, probably the most notable being Galaxy 2 and scaling to Grand Star amped Bowser. Not to mention that whenever Mario and Luigi team up against normal Bowser, they usually beat him fairly easily in a cutscene scenario. So it’s really more like Mario and Luigi > Dreamy Bowser > Bowser ~ Mario or Luigi separately.

I'm fairly certain we consider that an outlier? At least, base Mario's profile doesn't make mention of the scaling to an amped Bowser, just users of Grand Stars (which includes minions whom base Bowser would be superior to). That, or we limit it to Mario being amped with power stars, which doesn't really help us in terms of what we should or shouldn't use for base scaling.

 

[JJSliderman]

It’s probably possible to beat Antasma without DL if you’re really good at dodging, plus Mario can hurt and kill him in general.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah, of course it is. But I would file that under game mechanics because Mario barely does anything to Antasma, while DL is the only real heavy hitter. Like, as someone who plays a lot of RTS games, the idea that being able to harm someone in a video game means you scale automatically is just silly.

 

[JJSliderman]

Alright, but I think Mario and Luigi in the real world should at least have some representation of 2-B for them, given they can summon the Zeekeeper at any time.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Summoning of the Zeekeeper is already mentioned in Mario's optional equipment.

 

[JJSliderman]

Then why not just say 2-B with the Zeekeeper.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Presumably because it's optional equipment, iirc we only include standard equipment when it comes to tiers. Could be wrong though.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Presumably because it's optional equipment, iirc we only include standard equipment when it comes to tiers. Could be wrong though.

Actually, we do include optional equipment in their tiers. Look at Doofenshmirtz for example.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Ah, okay. Does that extend to summons? If so, I could see an "up to 2-B with summoning" being a thing.

 

[Deagonx]

I agree with the OP, the scaling is unsound, IMO.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Ah, okay. Does that extend to summons? If so, I could see an "up to 2-B with summoning" being a thing.

I think "up to 2-B with optional summons" would work, makes it clear that the summoning of the Zeekeeper is optional and not standard without needing to look into the powers and abilities section.

 

[JJSliderman]

Just say 2-B with the Zeekeeper, that’s the only 2-B summon.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Mario and Luigi do canonically get stronger throughout the series. It's pretty common for Mario to get stomped by Bowser early game, only to be equal to an amplified Bowser towards the end of the same game. And there are times where despite Mario besting an amped Bowser moments ago, Bowser is shown to be physically superior again without any amps in a game taking place afterwards.

However, the 2-B example specifically is a giant jump. And if the bros were truly naturally 2-B as of Dream Team, they would imply they remain 2-B for the rest of the games that follow chronologically which would in turn scale to base Bowser and many other mainline Mario cast. Which sounds quite outliersish. I don't might 2-B keys existing due to amps, temporary power ups, ect, but not in any point is being 2-B in base consistent for Mario. Some Low 2-C stuff scaling from Antasma and several other feats is something I could live with. Though 2-C? Did he absorb the dream worlds at the same time or one by one?

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

I agree with "Up to 2-B via zeekeeper"

 

[Mephistus]

From a narrative perspective, Mario shouldn't scale to Antasma, it's like scaling V1 to a black hole (which he can "survive".... by being reduced to one health every time).

If Dreambert can match Antasma's power with multiple clashes in the real world, yet agrees with Starlow that he's bonked aside and utterly outclassed by Dreamy Bowser's power and leaves the fight to Mario (& Wegee!), I would say that's why there's allowance for it.

Though 2-C? Did he absorb the dream worlds at the same time or one by one?

One by one going by the Pi'illo and Bowser examples.

 

[AStrangeverse]

Honestly, my fault for not noticing the SMB rule. Wasn't tryna be sly with the upgrades

I just didn't even realize that existed til now

Neutral for now

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Mario and Luigi do canonically get stronger throughout the series. It's pretty common for Mario to get stomped by Bowser early game, only to be equal to an amplified Bowser towards the end of the same game. And there are times where despite Mario besting an amped Bowser moments ago, Bowser is shown to be physically superior again without any amps in a game taking place afterwards.

However, the 2-B example specifically is a giant jump. And if the bros were truly naturally 2-B as of Dream Team, they would imply they remain 2-B for the rest of the games that follow chronologically which would in turn scale to base Bowser and many other mainline Mario cast. Which sounds quite outliersish. I don't might 2-B keys existing due to amps, temporary power ups, ect, but not in any point is being 2-B in base consistent for Mario. Some Low 2-C stuff scaling from Antasma and several other feats is something I could live with. Though 2-C? Did he absorb the dream worlds at the same time or one by one?

Antasma would be L2C at best. While he has absorbed multiple dreams, he did it in a one by one process over an unspecified stretch of time, which would make it scaling any higher pretty uncertain.

Mario and Luigi do canonically get stronger throughout the series. It's pretty common for Mario to get stomped by Bowser early game, only to be equal to an amplified Bowser towards the end of the same game. And there are times where despite Mario besting an amped Bowser moments ago, Bowser is shown to be physically superior again without any amps in a game taking place afterwards.

However, the 2-B example specifically is a giant jump. And if the bros were truly naturally 2-B as of Dream Team, they would imply they remain 2-B for the rest of the games that follow chronologically which would in turn scale to base Bowser and many other mainline Mario cast. Which sounds quite outliersish. I don't might 2-B keys existing due to amps, temporary power ups, ect, but not in any point is being 2-B in base consistent for Mario. Some Low 2-C stuff scaling from Antasma and several other feats is something I could live with. Though 2-C? Did he absorb the dream worlds at the same time or one by one?

My argument against the “they get stronger” argument in this case is that it’s not an early game vs late game scenario here. The event of them being unable to break the barrier and getting Zeekeeper’s help, then entering Bowser’s Castle for the finale are literally right next to each other in sequences of events and don’t give anywhere near enough time to reasonably let Mario grow in power.

I think it should stay, although there was arguments for Dreamy Bowser and the stone to be downgraded to make the scaling a tad more consistent.

I’m aware of them, in fact I’m planning to downgrade most DT stuff in a future CRT. Most of it would likely be L2C/2C at the absolute best.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

If Dreambert can match Antasma's power with multiple clashes in the real world, yet agrees with Starlow that he's bonked aside and utterly outclassed by Dreamy Bowser's power and leaves the fight to Mario (& Wegee!), I would say that's why there's allowance for it.

What does that have to do with scaling to Antasma, though? We know Mario and Luigi fight Dreamy Bowser, but I hope everyone here realizes just how big of an outlier that is.

 

[Quantu]

OP makes sense from what I've read.

 

[JJSliderman]

If the reason it’s an outlier is because it’s a big tier jump based on one showing, then that’s not really unique to this scenario.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It's an outlier because M&L couldn't perform a far weaker feat immediately before the fight, and it'd imply base Bowser, despite not having any reason to have increased in strength, is superior to an amped Bowser. The fact that it's a huge tier jump is just icing on the cake.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

If the reason it’s an outlier is because it’s a big tier jump based on one showing, then that’s not really unique to this scenario.

It’s not JUST that it’s a big tier jump, it doesn’t make sense narratively, is inconsistent with feats shown immediately prior, and creates a nightmarish bit of circular scaling which could then be used to spread 2B base stats across most of the Mario franchise lol.

the only argument to have Mario and Luigi genuinely scale to Dreamy Bowser is if he only absorbed some shard of the stone and had only a small fraction of its power, which would just make his tier “Unknown” and give no real scaling in the first place. Dreamy Bowser as a feat to scale to is just ****** lol.

 

[JJSliderman]

Mario and Luigi together have overwhelmed Base Bowser multiple times fairly easily, as shown by DT’s predecessor.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Mario and Luigi together have overwhelmed Base Bowser multiple times fairly easily, as shown by DT’s predecessor.

Bowser is still able to hold his own though, so the idea that Mario and Luigi are still superior to him even when he's amped by hundreds of thousands of universes - as the current stats suggest - makes no sense. If Bowser wasn't amped that much, then we can't quantify how much he was amped by, making the scaling unusable.

 

[JJSliderman]

Tbf Bowser also had that time in MP5 where he would have eventually warped all the dreams in the depot over time, so his base being comparable in power has some merit.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Tbf Bowser also had that time in MP5 where he would have eventually warped all the dreams in the depot over time, so his base being comparable in power has some merit.

Dawg literally nothing happens in that “feat”. He doesn’t get to affect a single dream and we have no qualifier for how he’d do it or how long it would take. He says he’d “fill all the dreams with his own dreams” so he’s gonna what, enter a dream and then dream even harder? That’s more haxx rather than outright AP at the most generous.

 

[JJSliderman]

We see him warp one of the dreams in-game, and we treat other feats/statements that also have a potential overtime component (like Solaris wiping out all of time), as a flat feat and ignore the overtime component.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

We see him warp one of the dreams in-game, and we treat other feats/statements that also have a potential overtime component (like Solaris wiping out all of time), as a flat feat and ignore the overtime component.

Send the scan of him actually warping a dream

 

[JJSliderman]

Isn’t that what Bowser’s dream board in the game is supposed to be, the fruits of him filling a dream with his own dreams.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Isn’t that what Bowser’s dream board in the game is supposed to be, the fruits of him filling a dream with his own dreams.

No, not necessarily. This is just one of Bowser's Dreams, he himself says "Here we are... this is my dream!", nothing directly stating this is a dream that he directly created or transformed. Considering that Bowser is directly going from dream to dream in the story, and considering the Dream Depot is supposed to have the dreams of everyone in the cosmology, Bowser coming across his own dream really isn't that unlikely.

 

[Mephistus]

What does that have to do with scaling to Antasma, though? We know Mario and Luigi fight Dreamy Bowser, but I hope everyone here realizes just how big of an outlier that is.

Like, there's base Bowser throwing Antasma to the ground and making him say "ouch" aiieee when he betrays him in the real world. Bros obviously should scale to him by being comparable to Bowser even if you think Antasma in the dream world wouldn't.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Like, there's base Bowser throwing Antasma to the ground and making him say "ouch" aiieee when he betrays him in the real world. Bros obviously should scale to him by being comparable to Bowser even if you think Antasma in the dream world wouldn't.

Bowser scales to a vaguely weaker Antasma, since Antasma only reaches his peak power in the dream world. This is, of course, unquantifiable, so we're right back where we started with DW Antasma scaling.

 

[AStrangeverse]

one could probably argue that because Mario is presumably amped by Dreamy Luigi, he could scale alongside him against Dreamy Bowser

instead of it just being denoted to be their "base" forms, which wasn't even my intention when I added the Dream Team key

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Mario being amped by Dreamy Luigi is 100% fine, it just requires such a specific set of circumstances that idk if it's even worth adding to Mario's profile (since he has to be in the dream world, AND have Luigi with him, AND have Luigi amp him). Dreamy Luigi's power bestowal already covers that scaling well enough, I think.