2B Base Mario & Luigi Removal (Remove Dream Team Tier)

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Like, there's base Bowser throwing Antasma to the ground and making him say "ouch" aiieee when he betrays him in the real world. Bros obviously should scale to him by being comparable to Bowser even if you think Antasma in the dream world wouldn't.

The entire point of this scene is Antasma being completely caught off guard and shocked by Bowser betraying him, he didn't expect to get flung face first into steel by Bowser and said ouch.

I still find it incredibly questionable to scale the Bros to L2C off of very vague Antasma scaling that's only possible through a method in a fight that feels unintentional, Dreambert getting his ass kicked, and Bowser surprising Antasma by throwing him. It's still a massive jump from their current 3C stats to a tier that otherwise isn't really supported throughout the series. Every other time a 3A or L2C feat comes up its made pretty explicit that the Bros would've died from it (The Dark Moon dimensional collapse, Galaxy 1 black hole and others come to mind for this).

 

[Mephistus]

The energy Antasma absorbed carried over to his form in the real world this is shown with the vines with bowser. In the Dw it's just even stronger form

 

[AStrangeverse]

Mario being amped by Dreamy Luigi is 100% fine, it just requires such a specific set of circumstances that idk if it's even worth adding to Mario's profile (since he has to be in the dream world, AND have Luigi with him, AND have Luigi amp him). Dreamy Luigi's power bestowal already covers that scaling well enough, I think.

I mean, VSBattles do be an indexing site so..

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Mario being amped by Dreamy Luigi is 100% fine, it just requires such a specific set of circumstances that idk if it's even worth adding to Mario's profile (since he has to be in the dream world, AND have Luigi with him, AND have Luigi amp him). Dreamy Luigi's power bestowal already covers that scaling well enough, I think.

I honestly think Dreamy Luigi having his own profile outside of Luigi was better than it being how is now, since while he's technically the Dream counterpart of Luigi, he's not something that can really reasonably be accessed by Luigi himself, he has an entirely different powerset, can only be accessed when Luigi goes to sleep and his opponent enters the Dream World.... its not something he could really use on his own

and not to mention that its just unnecessary to list on Mario's profile as a whole. Such a specific amp which also counts as outside help doesn't really need to be there. Dreamy Luigi himself being 2B for scaling to the Zeekeeper is fine though.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I mean, VSBattles do be an indexing site so..

Its an indexing site but its also within reason. I don't think Mario necessarily needs a tier listed for when he's amplified by Dreamy Luigi, if that's what your intention was here. And if that was the intention, Dreamy Bowser didn't need to be mentioned in the AP reasoning, and the tier should've just been named "Dreamy Luigi"

 

[AStrangeverse]

Its an indexing site but its also within reason. I don't think Mario necessarily needs a tier listed for when he's amplified by Dreamy Luigi,

I believe he does need a tier listed, if we're allowing Dreamy Bowser and Dreamy Luigi to have a key

this seems like it's pretty within reason to add a separate key for when Mario is amped by Dreamy Luigi, regardless of the requirements and specific circumstances

if that's what your intention was here. And if that was the intention, Dreamy Bowser didn't need to be mentioned in the AP reasoning, and the tier should've just been named "Dreamy Luigi"

Dreamy Bowser definitely should've been mentioned, as the guy is the literal final boss of Dream Team, I'd imagine he'd still be superior to every other boss up until that point, which would include a 2-B Zeekeeper that the bros had beaten prior

and as for the tier, "Dreamy Luigi" ain't gon' cut it, it should be "Amped by Dreamy Luigi" or the like

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I believe he does need a tier listed, if we're allowing Dreamy Bowser and Dreamy Luigi to have a key

this seems like it's pretty within reason to add a separate key for when Mario is amped by Dreamy Luigi, regardless of the requirements and specific circumstances



Dreamy Bowser definitely should've been mentioned, as the guy is the literal final boss of Dream Team, I'd imagine he'd still be superior to every other boss up until that point, which would include a 2-B Zeekeeper that the bros had beaten prior

and as for the tier, "Dreamy Luigi" ain't gon' cut it, it should be "Amped by Dreamy Luigi" or the like

If people are fine with it, then sure, we can make it a key. I meant it should have been "Dreamy Luigi" for Luigi's key. Mario's key obviously needs to state he's being amped.

And.... no, Dreamy Bowser shouldn't be mentioned? Dreamy Luigi never fights nor scales to him in any way, and it is literally, actually a discussion rule that he cannot be scaled to the Bros lol. The fact that he's apparently so superior to every other boss means he doesn't NEED to be mentioned for the Dreamy Luigi key. The best feat Dreamy Luigi performs is fighting the Zeekeeper, so that's what gets listed on Dreamy Luigi's profile.

The energy Antasma absorbed carried over to his form in the real world this is shown with the vines with bowser. In the Dw it's just even stronger form

Can you please post the scan for this. I've been looking through footage for Antasma's appearances and checking wiki articles and none of them link to where its stated he was absorbing dreams in his base form. I just want to verify this really.

 

[JJSliderman]

If the problem is just that Mario and Luigi together scale above a Bowser who is several tiers above his base, maybe just downscale base Bowser and other characters from Dreamy, it’s not like there haven’t been bigger tier jumps.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

If the problem is just that Mario and Luigi together scale above a Bowser who is several tiers above his base, maybe just downscale base Bowser and other characters from Dreamy, it’s not like there haven’t been bigger tier jumps.

Except base Bowser is still roughly equal to the bros, and since the same applies to Dreamy Bowser, this is literally just saying that Bowser = amped Bowser, which means he either wasn't amped (which is wrong), or the scaling is completely nonsensical and should be thrown out.

 

[JJSliderman]

He’s not roughly equal, he got beat pretty bad in Inside Story to the point he was in a cast and bedridden.

 

[AStrangeverse]

If people are fine with it, then sure, we can make it a key. I meant it should have been "Dreamy Luigi" for Luigi's key. Mario's key obviously needs to state he's being amped.

hm hm, aight

And.... no, Dreamy Bowser shouldn't be mentioned? Dreamy Luigi never fights nor scales to him in any way, and it is literally, actually a discussion rule that he cannot be scaled to the Bros lol.

bro wat, the Dreamy Bowser fight takes place in Neo Bowser Castle, which is.. inside the Dream World, and you can see here that Mario and Luigi fight alongside each other

and when it comes to Dreamy Luigi, it's just a form Luigi takes on whenever he enters the Dream World

I think that discussion rule needs to be revisited then, cuz shit

that is some piss

The fact that he's apparently so superior to every other boss means he doesn't NEED to be mentioned for the Dreamy Luigi key. The best feat Dreamy Luigi performs is fighting the Zeekeeper, so that's what gets listed on Dreamy Luigi's profile.

I don't think that's how that works my guy, just cuz he's superior doesn't mean he shouldn't be mentioned, especially when he's beaten by the bros as the final boss

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

He’s not roughly equal, he got beat pretty bad in Inside Story to the point he was in a cast and bedridden.

1. Inside Story also has an optional boss fight Bowser who's the hardest boss in the game, so rip. Bowser also objectively gets stronger during the course of that game, since iirc Midbus kicks your ass the first time you meet but Bowser defeats him later on.

2. Base Bowser can still fight the bros relatively evenly in Paper Jam (Paper Bowser is there, but so is Paper Mario, so it should cancel out). EDIT: I forgot you fight him in PiT as well :v

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

bro wat, the Dreamy Bowser fight takes place in Neo Bowser Castle, which is.. inside the Dream World, and you can see here that Mario and Luigi fight alongside each other

and when it comes to Dreamy Luigi, it's just a form Luigi takes on whenever he enters the Dream World

I think that discussion rule needs to be revisited then, cuz shit

that is some piss

That's DREAMY Neo Bowser Castle, Neo Bowser Castle has a real world equivalent and THAT'S where Dreamy Bowser is fought (you can literally see in the enemies list for DNBC that Dreamy Bowser isn't listed, only Antasma and Giant Bowser). Dreamy Luigi has no presence in the Dreamy Bowser fight, you can only use Bros Attacks and not Luiginary Attacks.

 

[AStrangeverse]

That's DREAMY Neo Bowser Castle, Neo Bowser Castle has a real world equivalent and THAT'S where Dreamy Bowser is fought (you can literally see in the enemies list for DNBC that Dreamy Bowser isn't listed, only Antasma and Giant Bowser). Dreamy Luigi has no presence in the Dreamy Bowser fight, you can only use Bros Attacks and not Luiginary Attacks.

yeah, touché

I just now looked back at it before reading what you wrote

 

[Mephistus]

Can you please post the scan for this. I've been looking through footage for Antasma's appearances and checking wiki articles and none of them link to where its stated he was absorbing dreams in his base form. I just want to verify this really.

Scans: click here for some scans and click here for the video scene (at work so can't make scans for the video scene timestamp is 1:17 its those few lines)

+ the scene with Luigi linking up that I can post later, the official guide should suffice though for his transformation trigger, its the exact same thing word for word in the guide that the pillow old man says lol.

Ofc the tier is still inconsistent in the grand scheme of things so I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I just wanna say rq that we don't use Prima Guides for Mario games, we've done that for a while.

 

[AStrangeverse]

if that Dreamy Bowser fight is just a massive outlier, then it can be axed, leaving just the Zeekeeper bit

unless yall got somethin else

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

And why should the Zeekeeper scaling stay for Mario, exactly?

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

and when it comes to Dreamy Luigi, it's just a form Luigi takes on whenever he enters the Dream World

Dreamy Luigi is a separate thing from Luigi's physical body. He's essentially Luigi's consciousness when linked with the Dream World, and Dreamy Luigi has special properties most don't in the Dream World and is even stated to be specifically linked to Dream Worlds in a special way (this was listed on his profile prior iirc). They're 100% different entities.

Scans: click here for some scans and click here for the video scene (at work so can't make scans for the video scene timestamp is 1:17 its those few lines)

+ the scene with Luigi linking up that I can post later, the official guide should suffice though for his transformation trigger, its the exact same thing word for word the pillow old man says.

Ofc the tier is still inconsistent in the grand scheme of things so I'm not holding my breath.

Thanks, I knew they were somewhere but couldn't find them. That second feat is kind of a different case though, as Antasma is absorbing the energy, and then transferring it to the Castle itself.

if that Dreamy Bowser fight is just a massive outlier, then it can be axed, leaving just the Zeekeeper bit

unless yall got somethin else

Dreamy Bowser is a ******* ultra giga outlier even if it was L2C/2C, it should definitely be left off. If you want to argue otherwise, make a post about removing the discussion rule later.

The Zeekeeper bit can stay for Dreamy Luigi just fine. Both keys have to be changed to "Dreamy Luigi" for Luigi and "Amped by Dreamy Luigi"

 

[AStrangeverse]

And why should the Zeekeeper scaling stay for Mario, exactly?

you say that like you've got me held at gunpoint

I mean, Mario was shown to be able to react to the Zeekeeper's initial charge, similar to how Dreamy Luigi can react and counter

and I know you've already mentioned this, but I think it's still worth noting that Mario does contribute somewhat during the fight when they use the Drill Stomp technique, even if Mario does tire afterwards

at the very least, he should downscale from Dreamy Luigi

 

[AStrangeverse]

Dreamy Luigi is a separate thing from Luigi's physical body. He's essentially Luigi's consciousness when linked with the Dream World, and Dreamy Luigi has special properties most don't in the Dream World and is even stated to be specifically linked to Dream Worlds in a special way (this was listed on his profile prior iirc). They're 100% different entities.

yeah, but overall, it's still the same Luigi

that's why he's got a separate key

The Zeekeeper bit can stay for Dreamy Luigi just fine. Both keys have to be changed to "Dreamy Luigi" for Luigi and "Amped by Dreamy Luigi"

dunno, gotta wait to see what Fuji's counterpoints will be

 

[JJSliderman]

I just wanna say rq that we don't use Prima Guides for Mario games, we've done that for a while.

In hindsight, considering how often they’re used for Sonic, maybe that should be changed.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

you say that like you've got me held at gunpoint

I mean, Mario was shown to be able to react to the Zeekeeper's initial charge, similar to how Dreamy Luigi can react and counter

That's speed, not AP. This thread isn't about speed scaling.

and I know you've already mentioned this, but I think it's still worth noting that Mario does contribute somewhat during the fight when they use the Drill Stomp technique, even if Mario does tire afterwards

at the very least, he should downscale from Dreamy Luigi

And the way he contributes is in no way scalable to AP. He just adds torque to Luigi's attack, which makes Luigi's attack do more damage, because Luigi is the only one in this fight doing a damn thing to the Zeekeeper. Being able to puppeteer someone into attacking doesn't mean you scale to the force of that attack, especially if you straight up pass out after doing it once.

 

[AStrangeverse]

That's speed, not AP. This thread isn't about speed scaling.


And the way he contributes is in no way scalable to AP. He just adds torque to Luigi's attack, which makes Luigi's attack do more damage, because Luigi is the only one in this fight doing a damn thing to the Zeekeeper. Being able to puppeteer someone into attacking doesn't mean you scale to the force of that attack, especially if you straight up pass out after doing it once.

yeah yeah, I get it

forget I mentioned it then, he simply won't scale and you can figure out what to do with him

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

you say that like you've got me held at gunpoint

I mean, Mario was shown to be able to react to the Zeekeeper's initial charge, similar to how Dreamy Luigi can react and counter

and I know you've already mentioned this, but I think it's still worth noting that Mario does contribute somewhat during the fight when they use the Drill Stomp technique, even if Mario does tire afterwards

at the very least, he should downscale from Dreamy Luigi

The Zeekeeper explicitly states he wasn't really trying or going full power until later on in the fight when Luigi actually pushes him, so even if you were to try and scale speed it wouldn't really be applicable either. And I covered the Drill Stomp argument in OP, its not something I'd attribute to scaling.

yeah yeah, I get it

forget I mentioned it then, he simply won't scale and you can figure out what to do with him

All we have to do for Mario's key is just change it to "Amped with Dreamy Luigi" if we're intent on keeping a Dreamy Luigi tier, make it explicitly clear that Mario doesn't scale on his own, and remove the Dreamy Bowser mentions.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

In hindsight, considering how often they’re used for Sonic, maybe that should be changed.

Mario's disallowed Prima Guides because they have a history of being contradictory to the games they're describing. Galaxy's Prima Guide completely got Bowser's plan incorrect which lead to Uni arguments that didn't apply for instance.

 

[AStrangeverse]

The Zeekeeper explicitly states he wasn't really trying or going full power until later on in the fight when Luigi actually pushes him, so even if you were to try and scale speed it wouldn't really be applicable either. And I covered the Drill Stomp argument in OP, its not something I'd attribute to scaling.

figured that already

All we have to do for Mario's key is just change it to "Amped with Dreamy Luigi" if we're intent on keeping a Dreamy Luigi tier, make it explicitly clear that Mario doesn't scale on his own, and remove the Dreamy Bowser mentions.

sounds good

 

[JJSliderman]

In terms of the Zeekeeper fight, at some points the boss can actually hit Mario with his attacks and knock him off DL’s hat, and Mario isn’t that hurt.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I normally avoid making characters who "Survive getting fly swatted" being grounds for scaling.

 

[JJSliderman]

Mario was relatively unhurt by ZK’s attack, not just surviving it.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Are we really going to argue for Issun getting flyswatted by Galaxy level threats in Okami for scaling?

Since Sonic’s getting brought up, let’s just scale his base form to uni-multi then. He’s been battered by Merlina, Time Eater, Giganto, Neo Metal Sonic, and more and didn’t get red misted. Surely that’s valid if this is what we’re trying to scrounge for base Mario scaling?

 

[JJSliderman]

Ftr I actually buy him downscaling Merlina, it’s the same scenario as Mewtwo scaling to Zygarde.

Plus the Zeekeeper stuff works in tandem with Dreamy Bowser scaling to make the latter more viable.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Dreamy Bowser is stronger than or roughly equal to the Zeekeeper though, so it makes no sense for Mario to heavily downscale from the Zeekeeper and then easily upscale from someone equal to or greater than that.

Also like. We simply don't do scaling that way, and we pretty much never will. Mario is very clearly leagues below the Zeekeeper, even if he isn't getting turned into red paste with every hit.

 

[JJSliderman]

This is an RPG game, we can just say Mario got stronger after the Zeekeeper fight.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

This is an RPG game, we can just say Mario got stronger after the Zeekeeper fight.

Within just a few levels? When he isn’t shown to become demonstrably stronger in the story regardless because his strongest bros move is summoning the Zeekeeper????

 

[JJSliderman]

The just a few levels thing sounds like incredulity, and as for the strongest attack being the Zeekeeper, the Zeekeeper uses the Wakebeam in that attack, which is an attack he explicitly has to charge up for, draining his power temporarily so he has to rest afterwards. It doesn’t prevent the Bros. from scaling to Zeekeeper’s normal power level.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The just a few levels thing sounds like incredulity, and as for the strongest attack being the Zeekeeper, the Zeekeeper uses the Wakebeam in that attack, which is an attack he explicitly has to charge up for, draining his power temporarily so he has to rest afterwards. It doesn’t prevent the Bros. from scaling to Zeekeeper’s normal power level.

He literally doesn't, though....

 

[JJSliderman]

Oh.

Well it’s still stronger than any other Bros. Attack by virtue of being from a 2-B named important character superior to Mario’s standard fists.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That's the entire point we're trying to make lol, Mario and Luigi shouldn't scale because even in the endgame, the Zeekeeper is shown to be way stronger than either of them.

 

[JJSliderman]

I mean, the Star Rocket does about as much damage as the Zeekeeper, so meh