2-C to 2-A standards, the return

[StrymULTRA]

Hard disagree. The overwhelming majority of Tier 2 and above fights are decided on the basis of hax potency, resistances, passives, ability activation speed etc, and this fact is unlikely to change even if changes are made to how AP is scaled in Tier 2. The unquantifiable differences in AP almost never complicates actual VS matchups so the idea that Tier 2 matches are "completely unviable" with the current statistics is itself completely baseless

The way I see it is that you are proposing a solution to a non-existant problem

It is a problem, since AP is a key factor in tier 2 fights, heck, most of tier 2 fights are even based on how much universes a character busts (like Solaris vs Zeno), so what you're saying doesn't make sense.

Just ignoring the AP and going with Hax is the same as going with stats Equalized, a setting that was already banned from the wiki

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with AKM.

So do we need to clarify our standards in a more easily comprehensible manner in the Tiering System page?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with AKM’s take on this.

 

[RoyGundam]

It is a problem, since AP is a key factor in tier 2 fights, heck, most of tier 2 fights are even based on how much universes a character busts (like Solaris vs Zeno), so what you're saying doesn't make sense.

That is a super rare instance and even when it does matter, it's usually in one-shot territory no matter how you treat it - as was the case in Solaris vs Zeno IIRC

 

[StrymULTRA]

Shall we just put Low 2-C characters who are infinitely above other Low 2-C ones as Unknown, to respect these unknown setting of universes, since we've no idea about how much they can be strong, nr have basis to assume in which tier they could've jump in.

 

[Antvasima]

Probably "At least Low 2-C, likely higher", but I am not certain

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

The problem with using the distance as a big factor assumes that all multiversal characters destroyed multiple Universe with an omnidirectional attack.

For example:
Dormamu is 2-C for being able to absorb worlds into his dimension. Shockwave was absorbing a universe and destroying one at the same time. The mere presence of the Sol Emeralds in Sonic's world was going to merge Blaze's world with Sonic's.

All these characters are 2-C despite not destroying or even effecting any distance between worlds, but only the worlds themselves. Are they now low 2-C because they need to absorb the distance to?

Also please stop comparing the distance between solar systems to the distance between universes. MSS obviously needs the solar systems at a specific distance to actually qualify for MSS. With 2-C and above, it doesn't matter how close or far the universes are. Distance should not be a factor, only the number of universes.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Probably "At least Low 2-C, likely higher", but I am not certain

This could work for low 2-C but I'm not arguing multipliers for low 2-C to 2-C. Just 2-C and above.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, merging together several universes into one unit does legitimately affect the entireties of all of them at once, so we have to list them as 2-C in lack of better options, but it is very possible that we have have given inaccurate 2-C tiers in other cases.

However, several wrongs do not make a right, and it really is extremely hard for us to get any for of proper estimations for how much more power that would be required to destroy 4,000,000 universes at the same time, compared to 4 universes, for example, and standards of distance also likely greatly differ from fiction to fiction, so there really isn't much else that we can do in this regard. It really is unquantifiable/impossible to properly determine. My apologies.

That said, I could definitely see a character that is infinitely stronger than a 2-C or 2-B other character to qualify for 2-A, but I am not the best person to ask at all, and it is not up to me to decide.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Probably "At least Low 2-C, likely higher", but I am not certain

Not really, at this point, since of the completely unknown ways about how the universes are arranged, still just Low 2-C, 2-C, 2-B or even 2-A could be argued at the same way, there can't be a subjective opinion on this.

Unknown for said characters fits this uncertainty more than any of these ratings could, since any of them can be gave with the same chance of accuraticity.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we will not overturn our standards without a consensus from our most knowledgeable staff members.

 

[Arceus0x]

i will say sth. Using the same "unknown distance" logic can be used against the system. What could stop a character that can destroy 4 universes from being stronger than a character who can destroy 4000000 verses if the distance between the 4 mil is smaller than the one between the 4? We don't count in these cases, we essentially equalize that distance. If we do that here then why shouldn't we do that in other cases which would make life much easier.

also pretty sure that making a 3 verse destroyer infinitely superior to a 2 verse destroyer because of an unknown distance is a far bigger and nonsensical assumption than making the distance between two verses equal.

 

[RoyGundam]

also pretty sure that making a 3 verse destroyer infinitely superior to a 2 verse destroyer because of an unknown distance is a far bigger and nonsensical assumption than making the distance between two verses equal.

They are not infinitely superior. Just unquantifiably so. You can generally assume that the 3 verse destroyer has higher AP so the fight will either be decided by other factors or the higher AP guy will win

i will say sth. Using the same "unknown distance" logic can be used against the system. What could stop a character that can destroy 4 universes from being stronger than a character who can destroy 4000000 verses if the distance between the 4 mil is smaller than the one between the 4? We don't count in these cases, we essentially equalize that distance. If we do that here then why shouldn't we do that in other cases which would make life much easier.

Nothing would stop it, but that is a very specific assumption to make that would generally not be accepted without actual backing. Similarly, assuming that all fictional multiverses have the exact same "spacing" between spacetimes is also a very specific assumption that has no reason to be accepted generally. The most general thing you can say is that characters who bust more Universes are stronger than characters who bust fewer Universes, and if the VS battle absolutely cannot be decided by other factors - i.e. hax, resistances and passives, and if the weaker character has a significant multiplier, then it can really only be ended as Inconclusive - Those are also a very specific set of conditions and most Tier 2 battles don't actually boil down to unquantifiable AP differences and quantifiable multipliers ....

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I will say that being infinitely superior to a 2-C character would indeed be 2-A; however, infinitely superior statements are heavily prone to hyperbole's; High 3-A Golden Frieza says hi. And I would definitely avoid making massive tier jumps for big number multiplier statements such as the case with Undertale's god tiers from what I heard. The cosmology doesn't have evidence beyond 2-C, but some characters are rated as 2-B or 2-A based on being massively superior to other 2-Cs. I made mention that being big tiers above the verse' cosmology should be generally taboo unless it's extremely specific about tier 1 stuff.

 

[Agnaa]

We definitely can't keep this tier with this vagueness, since this will make Tier 2 fights completely unaviable, so, I've got an idea.

We definitely can. People have been making the exact same arguments as you have for years upon years. Tier 2 fights have never been unviable in that way.

So do we need to clarify our standards in a more easily comprehensible manner in the Tiering System page?

I earlier suggested adding this sentence to the end of the first note:

This does not mean that the difference between these tiers is greater than infinite, merely that the difference is unknown.

Probably "At least Low 2-C, likely higher", but I am not certain

I am also fine with giving characters with infinite multipliers possibly/likely higher. While I do think that "At least" already gets that across, I'm okay with this compromise.

Shall we just put Low 2-C characters who are infinitely above other Low 2-C ones as Unknown, to respect these unknown setting of universes, since we've no idea about how much they can be strong, nr have basis to assume in which tier they could've jump in.

Unknown for said characters fits this uncertainty more than any of these ratings could, since any of them can be gave with the same chance of accuraticity.

No, this is not how we do indexing at all. We know a minimum of how strong they are, which is Low 2-C. Tons of other characters have unknown peak potentials because of how much stronger they are than their feats, at most we give them "Unknown, at least {tier}, possibly far higher".

i will say sth. Using the same "unknown distance" logic can be used against the system. What could stop a character that can destroy 4 universes from being stronger than a character who can destroy 4000000 verses if the distance between the 4 mil is smaller than the one between the 4?

It could be if the verses both indicated this in any way at all. But without that idk why we would.

We don't count in these cases, we essentially equalize that distance.

Is it really equalization to not assume that things are different unless the series indicates it's different? :v I feel like equalization usually implies a difference that's being equalized away.

If we do that here then why shouldn't we do that in other cases which would make life much easier.

I have no clue what other cases you're talking about, this "equalizing distance" thing is only applicable for fights.

also pretty sure that making a 3 verse destroyer infinitely superior to a 2 verse destroyer because of an unknown distance is a far bigger and nonsensical assumption than making the distance between two verses equal.

What does making the distance between two verses equal mean in this case?

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Agnaa.

We should add his suggested note, and then close this thread. It is turning very pointless, time-consuming, repetitive, and tiresome.

 

[AKM sama]

That note is fine to add but I personally think the term "unquantifiable" should already get the idea across. But no harm in clarifying a bit more.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah I'm fine with "unknown", "unquantifiable", or "unknown/unquantifiable".

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. Is somebody willing to add the extra clarification note please?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Thank you. Is somebody willing to add the extra clarification note please?

This was never done, so I did it. Close this.

Tiering System

The following is a comprehensive overview of the hierarchical system which this wiki utilizes in order to properly categorize and index fictional characters, entities, and objects based on the scale of their feats, and the varying scopes which they can affect or create/destroy. However, it...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[StrymULTRA]

What in the name of necro is this?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

What in the name of necro is this?

This is an important wiki policy thread, for which nothing is really a necropost as long as it contributes. I'm only applying a change that was accepted but never applied. Please don't post on staff threads without permission.

 

[StrymULTRA]

This is an important wiki policy thread, for which nothing is really a necropost as long as it contributes. I'm only applying a change that was accepted but never applied. Please don't post on staff threads without permission.

...this is literally my thread.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

...this is literally my thread.

Okay.