2-C to 2-A standards, the return

[StrymULTRA]

Finally I've returned after some pause, and I want to address an issue I noticed time ago.

There are examples of characters who are 2-B because of scalings from 2-C characters, like Takion or Asriel Dreemurr, but there are also ones as Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo or Grand Priest, who are extremely above 2-C characters, they still aren't even 2-B.

Thus, I have a problem. I get how a Low 2-C can't be even baseline 2-C, no matter the multipler, since the barrier between universes is unquantifiable due to it being beyond space and time, but why an higher level of 2-C/2-B should be inacessible to a weaker level of 2-C/2-B like a baseline 2-C is for a Low 2-C?

I don't get why, for example if a character able to destroy 2 universes, multiplied their power x 1000, wouldn't be able to destroy 2000 universes, since not only the amount of universes is multipled, but even the quantity of spaces between universes as well.

Same with an infinite multipler, assuming that a character who can still destroy 2 universes gets an infinite multipler (making said multipler legit, to avoid hyperbole arguments), it would be kinda obvious that they'be be able to destroy infinite universes, since both the amount of universes and the spaces between them are multiplied for infinity.

TLDR:

Current 2-C to 2-A standards are dumb since they don't count the spaces between universes being multiplied as well, while they should.

EDIT: To explain better, we treat the difference between Low 2-C and 2-C as something beyond infinite, since we have characters as SMT Ouroboros Maia as a Low 2-C character that despite being infinitely above the baseline, they're still Low 2-C.

So I suggest to treat the tiers from 2-C to 2-A as sub-sets of infinities infinitely above Low 2-C in an inacessible way, but still comparable to each other, a bit like this, using the 3-A and High 3-A tiers as comparison:

3-D | 4-D

3-A | Low 2-C
High 3-A | 2-C
x1001 High 3-A | 2-B
x Infinite High 3-A | 2-A
​

This new way to treat 2-C to 2-A in comparison to Low 2-C fits our ways to treat the difference between Low 2-C and 2-C more than the wiki currently does, and makes our methods to approach such tiers much more simpler than before.

COUNT

• Agree:
• Bobsican
• Rikimarox2
• Zamasu_Chan
• LordTracer
• Ottavio_Merluzzo
• XSOULOFCINDERX
• Zenkaibattery1
• The_real_cal_howard
• Lightbuster30

• Neutral:
• Agnaa

• Disagree:
• AKM sama
• DarkDragonMedeus
• RoyGundam
• Ultima_Reality
• Wokistan
• Ionliosite

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump

 

[Bobsican]

I agree with the OP, but in any case this needs a more solid standard, yes.

 

[KingTempest]

There are examples of characters who are 2-B because of scalings from 2-C characters, like Takion or Asriel Dreemurr, but there are also ones as Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo or Grand Priest, who are extremely above 2-C characters, they still aren't even 2-B.

Your examples were flawed. I know DC and DBS (Everyone knows DBS), so I'll speak for those ones. The others, I have no idea.

Takion is based off of scaling from the Speed Force which encompasses the DC universe, which has a 2-B to 2-A cosmology IIRC. Scaling off of Captain Atom wouldn't be 2-B.

The Grand Priest is based off of scaling from Low 2-C beings and Low, 2-C beings. Whis is like 2 Spacetimes 2-C off of 2 Spacetimes collapsing.

Thus, I have a problem. I get how a Low 2-C can't be even baseline 2-C, no matter the multipler, since the barrier between universes is unquantifiable due to it being beyond space and time, but why an higher level of 2-C/2-B should be inacessible to a weaker level of 2-C/2-B like a baseline 2-C is for a Low 2-C?

I don't get why, for example if a character able to destroy 2 universes, multiplied their power x 1000, wouldn't be able to destroy 2000 universes, since not only the amount of universes is multipled, but even the quantity of spaces between universes as well.

Low 2-C is 1 space-time. 2-C is 2 through 1000 space-times. 2-B is 1001 through any larger finite number of space-times. 2-A is an infinite number of space-times.

If it won't work for one, it won't work for another.
With that logic, someone who is Uni+ off of a 2x multiplier (can destroy 1 space-time) can destroy half a space-time in base, which isn't a thing.

Same with an infinite multipler, assuming that a character who can still destroy 2 universes gets an infinite multipler (making said multipler legit, to avoid hyperbole arguments), it would be kinda obvious that they'be be able to destroy infinite universes, since both the amount of universes and the spaces between them are multiplied for infinity.

I'm neutral on this point, but this site takes a lot for "infinite" statements to be taken as legit.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The strawman here is so funny that I've even to reply...

Takion is based off of scaling from the Speed Force which encompasses the DC universe, which has a 2-B to 2-A cosmology IIRC. Scaling off of Captain Atom wouldn't be 2-B.

The DC Multiverse isn't even mentioned in his AP reasoning, he's 2-B because he scales from Atom.

Multiverse level (The entire quantum field that empowers Captain Atom, as well as the Speed Force and the Emotional Electromagnetic Spectrum, are merely parts of Takion's power)

Where is the multiverse mentioned here?

The Grand Priest is based off of scaling from Low 2-C beings and Low, 2-C beings. Whis is like 2 Spacetimes 2-C off of 2 Spacetimes collapsing.

And yes, they are 2-C from scaling from other 2-Cs when the gap is hella above x1000, what's your point?

Low 2-C is 1 space-time. 2-C is 2 through 1000 space-times. 2-B is 1001 through any larger finite number of space-times. 2-A is an infinite number of space-times.

We all already know, you talk like between 2 2-Bs can't be a difference bigger between baseline 2-C and 2-B tho

If it won't work for one, it won't work for another.
With that logic, someone who is Uni+ off of a 2x multiplier (can destroy 1 space-time) can destroy half a space-time in base, which isn't a thing.

Never stated so, did you even read the thread? The spaces between said universes are multiplied too, while a Low 2-C can't become 2-C via scalings/multiplers because the spaces between universes aren't involved, a 2-C can become 2-B or even 2-A via multiplers, since even the space between universes is multiplied as well.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Following~

Also, maybe we should contact a staff or smth?

 

[Antvasima]

I have also wondered about this for quite a while, but am very strayminded due to all of the tasks that I regularly handle, so I have likely had it explained to me and forgotten.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @AKM sama @Promestein

What do you think about this?

 

[KingTempest]

The DC Multiverse isn't even a reasoning in his AP reasoning, he's 2-B because he scales from Atom.

Multiverse level (The entire quantum field that empowers Captain Atom, as well as the Speed Force and the Emotional Electromagnetic Spectrum, are merely parts of Takion's power)

Where is the multiverse mentioned here?

It says the quantum field that empowers him, as well as the Speed Force and the Emotional Electromagnetic Spectrum. They did not say "Captain Atom's strength", there's a huge difference. Look up the cosmology of the DC Universe then look how those 2 are tied in with it. The grand priest is scaling off of people while Takion is scaling off multiversal forces

And yes, they are 2-C from scaling from other 2-Cs when the gap is hella above x1000, what's your point?

Above 1000x based on what? You sound like those who say "I can destroy a continent, 2x the force, multi continental since it's multiple continents"

We all already know, you talk like between 2 2-Bs can't be a difference bigger between baseline 2-C and 2-B tho

2 2-Bs can be 1001 and 1000000000000001. Most of the time, the difference is larger

Never stated so, did you even read the thread? The spaces between said universes are multiplied too, while a Low 2-C can't become 2-C via scalings/multiplers because the spaces between universes aren't involved, a 2-C can become 2-B or even 2-A via multiplers, since even the space between universes is multiplied as well.

The only difference between Low 2-C, 2-C, 2-B and 2-A is the amount. If it doesn't work for the bottom, why should it work for the middle?

 

[KingTempest]

Actually, scratch the last point cause I understand what you mean about Low 2-C vs 2-C.
What about 2 Space Times? If that's from someone w/ a 2x multiplier transformation, what is their strength in base?

 

[AKM sama]

I don't get why, for example if a character able to destroy 2 universes, multiplied their power x 1000, wouldn't be able to destroy 2000 universes, since not only the amount of universes is multipled, but even the quantity of spaces between universes as well.

Well, we had a thread where it was decided against using this line of thought. If someone can destroy 2 solar systems or galaxies, multiplying their power with 1000 doesn't mean they can destroy 2000 solar systems or galaxies because of several factors like distance and inverse square law come into picture and it isn't a linear growth. We don't know anything about how universes are arranged or work in a dimension beyond 3-D and math isn't applicable either. So even if you can destroy 2 universes, unless you have feats of destroying more universes, being 1000 times stronger doesn't mean you can destroy 2000 universes.

Basically, multipliers can't be used linearly due to several unknown factors.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Shouldn't we put a footnote in the tiering system then? I feel like that would be useful.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Actually, scratch the last point cause I understand what you mean about Low 2-C vs 2-C.
What about 2 Space Times? If that's from someone w/ a 2x multiplier transformation, what is their strength in base?

Wym here

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well, we had a thread where it was decided against using this line of thought. If someone can destroy 2 solar systems or galaxies, multiplying their power with 1000 doesn't mean they can destroy 2000 solar systems or galaxies because of several factors like distance and inverse square law come into picture and it isn't a linear growth. We don't know anything about how universes are arranged or work in a dimension beyond 3-D and math isn't applicable either. So even if you can destroy 2 universes, unless you have feats of destroying more universes, being 1000 times stronger doesn't mean you can destroy 2000 universes.

Basically, multipliers can't be used linearly due to several unknown factors.

Shouldn't be specified in the Tiering notes at this point? Since it leads to a lot of confusions

 

[Eganergo]

And what about note 4 on the Tiering? Wouldn't that also applicable to 2C? If we're assuming every universe is the same, multiplier should work.

 

[KingTempest]

Wym here

Let's say Tempest (a random person) is 2-C. He can destroy (or apply the force of) 3 Space Time Continuums, but that's only in a transformation that boosts his base power by at least 3, so numbers like 4 and above are valid.

If he's in his base, he's at least 3 times weaker. We can't say "he can only destroy 1 space time" because of that because we're not including the space in between them, only the number of space times.

What to learn from this, when you get to 4-D and above, throw all logic you used for 3-D AP out the window. That's why the Attack Potency Page doesn't even calculate above Low 2-C, because throwing numbers into it is stupid.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Let's say Tempest (a random person) is 2-C. He can destroy (or apply the force of) 3 Space Time Continuums, but that's only in a transformation that boosts his base power by at least 3, so numbers like 4 and above are valid.

If he's in his base, he's at least 3 times weaker. We can't say "he can only destroy 1 space time" because of that because we're not including the space in between them, only the number of space times.

What to learn from this, when you get to 4-D and above, throw all logic you used for 3-D AP out the window. That's why the Attack Potency Page doesn't even calculate above Low 2-C, because throwing numbers into it is stupid.

The boosts are simply non-linear in this case if this Low 2-C can become 2-C with a x3 Multipler

 

[StrymULTRA]

And what about note 4 on the Tiering? Wouldn't that also applicable to 2C? If we're assuming every universe is the same, multiplier should work.

Infinity is another thing way more complex than this, so no

 

[Eganergo]

Now that i read it carefully, you're right. 2C doesn't need to be infinite universe, just significant 4D space that fulfill the requirements is enough.

I rest my case.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I'll comment on this later.

 

[AKM sama]

Shouldn't there be a footnote

I mean

"Note 1:

Due to the fact that the distance between any given number of universes embedded in higher-dimensional / higher-order spaces is currently unknowable, it is impossible to quantify the numerical gap between each one of the subtiers in Tier 2. As such, it is not allowed to upgrade such a character based solely on multipliers. For example, someone twice as strong as a Low 2-C character would still be Low 2-C, and someone infinitely more powerful than a 2-C would not be 2-A."

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm with AKM Sama, I believe it was agreed that using multipliers for Tier 2 and above characters is rejected simply because the distance between 2 or more universes is unquantifiable. It's an uncountable number gap. Furthermore, it was also agreed to be taboo for any character to be entire tiers above the cosmology of the respective verses except in more extreme examples such as 1-A and above shenanigans.

 

[LordTracer]

I think the point of the thread is that, when you’re 2-C, you’ve already bridged the gap between universes. So a multiplier would multiply that as well.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tbf even the distance between Solar Systems/galaxies are counted in calcs, otherwise what's the point of calculating the gap between these tiers

 

[Antvasima]

AKM sama makes sense to me as well.

Do we need to better clarify what he explained in our Tiering System page?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Distance really doesn’t matter to be 100% honest. A character can destroy two universes without affecting any distance and still be 2-C. The “unquantifiable gap” is just [headcanon]. Like I understand low 2-C to 2-C but 2-C to 2-B? What? I’ve already explained the flawed logic behind that but no one listens to me.
Kratos for example is 9 universes in AP. By our current standards, Kratos is infinitely greater than anyone that’s 8 universes or lower. Inb4 you tell me it’s “unquantifiable” instead of “infinite”. Potato potahto. It’s treated as infinite anyway because not even an infinite increase can get you from 2 universe to 3.
People also ignore this rule exists during VS matches. We can’t have proper VS matches if a character AP stomps you by being one universe above you.

TLDR: It’s something the wiki made up because [reasons].

 

[StrymULTRA]

Distance really doesn’t matter to be 100% honest. A character can destroy two universes without affecting any distance and still be 2-C. The “unquantifiable gap” is just [headcanon]. Like I understand low 2-C to 2-C but 2-C to 2-B? What? I’ve already explained the flawed logic behind that but no one listens to me.
Kratos for example is 9 universes in AP. By our current standards, Kratos is infinitely greater than anyone that’s 8 universes or lower. Inb4 you tell me it’s “unquantifiable” instead of “infinite”. Potato potahto. It’s treated as infinite anyway because not even an infinite increase can get you from 2 universe to 3.
People also ignore this rule exists during VS matches. We can’t have proper VS matches if a character AP stomps you by being one universe above you.

TLDR: It’s something the wiki made up because [reasons].

This as well, agree completely here

 

[WHYNAUT]

@Zamasu_Chan

There is an actual explanation given for why the wiki treats it that way. It's not something that was made up and you haven't debunked the explanation. You say distance doesn't matter, but you don't explain why. Like what does "Without affecting any distance" even mean?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Thing is that this "unquantifiable" thing is completely baseless and applied even between 2-C and 2-B for completely no reason, the space between universes is multipled too, no matter how large/wide it is.

 

[WHYNAUT]

Well, we had a thread where it was decided against using this line of thought. If someone can destroy 2 solar systems or galaxies, multiplying their power with 1000 doesn't mean they can destroy 2000 solar systems or galaxies because of several factors like distance and inverse square law come into picture and it isn't a linear growth. We don't know anything about how universes are arranged or work in a dimension beyond 3-D and math isn't applicable either. So even if you can destroy 2 universes, unless you have feats of destroying more universes, being 1000 times stronger doesn't mean you can destroy 2000 universes.

Basically, multipliers can't be used linearly due to several unknown factors.

^

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

@Zamasu_Chan

There is an actual explanation given for why the wiki treats it that way. It's not something that was made up and you haven't debunked the explanation. You say distance doesn't matter, but you don't explain why. Like what does "Without affecting any distance" even mean?

You absolutely can destroy universes without affecting the distance.

Hypothetically, a character can snap their fingers and erase 3 universes but not the distance around them. They’re still 2-C despite not touching the axis. Btw where’s this explanation you speak of?

EDIT: Nvm I see it one sec.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I agree with Zamasu Chan here. I never understood this "unquantifiable gap" Since it's unsupported

 

[WHYNAUT]

I didn't say you can't, I asked what you even mean by that.

Multipliers should definitely not apply to that. That's like making someone Large Planet Level for being able to destroy multiple planets by firing multiple attacks at the same time, who then becomes thousands of times stronger.

Posted above.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Well, we had a thread where it was decided against using this line of thought. If someone can destroy 2 solar systems or galaxies, multiplying their power with 1000 doesn't mean they can destroy 2000 solar systems or galaxies because of several factors like distance and inverse square law come into picture and it isn't a linear growth.

We don’t rate tier 2 AP like this, or at least we shouldn’t. We take into account the distance in this scenario because it’s an important formation of our solar systems and galaxies. We don’t rate characters 2-C for how far a universe is but by how many they can destroy.

We don't know anything about how universes are arranged or work in a dimension beyond 3-D and math isn't applicable either. So even if you can destroy 2 universes, unless you have feats of destroying more universes, being 1000 times stronger doesn't mean you can destroy 2000 universes.

Again. Distance should not be a factor when talking about the literal number of universes.

Basically, multipliers can't be used linearly due to several unknown factors.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I didn't say you can't, I asked what you even mean by that.

I’ll try to visualize it as much as I can. We treat 2-C as though we need the distance to be 2-C when we really don’t. Again. If a character snaps their fingers and 3 universes just vanish out of existence, but the character never erased the distance between universes, then by the wiki’s logic, that feat is low 2-C.

Multipliers should definitely not apply to that. That's like making someone Large Planet Level for being able to destroy multiple planets by firing multiple attacks at the same time, who then becomes thousands of times stronger.

Posted above.

You do realize that you can go from 5-B to 5-A if the multipliers are legit right?

 

[WHYNAUT]

Hypothetically, a character can snap their fingers and erase 3 universes but not the distance around them. They’re still 2-C despite not touching the axis.

Btw this example is extremely specific. I have never heard of a verse where multiple universes are destroyed, but it's specifically noted that the distance around them wasn't affected. Besides if it completely ignores the distance between the universes and they still all get destroyed at the same time I'm more inclined to say that it was simply three attacks used at the same time.

You do realize that you can go from 5-B to 5-A if the multipliers are legit right?

Except they can't in my example because it isn't accomplished with one attack. If someone can fire off two attacks that can both destoy a planet we don't combine the AP of destroying them.

 

[00potato]

Can I say something?
When we get to High 3-A/low 2-C and above, we are already dealing with infinites. Because of this the distance between worlds isn’t an issue since it can’t somehow be above infinity. At most 3 times low 2-C is baseline 2-C because you would destroy universe 1 (first infinite set.) universe 2 (second infinite set.) and the space in-between (third infinite set.)

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

K I see what you mean by the 5-A thing.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Anyway why is this “distance” getting the gawk gawk treatment when said distance has literally no time or space? There’s literally nothing there.

When it comes to the space between galaxies, that’s understandable because that’s 3-D space and therefore something’s there. But with 2-C between the universes is nothing but a void and should warrant nothing.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Btw this example is extremely specific. I have never heard of a verse where multiple universes are destroyed, but it's specifically noted that the distance around them wasn't affected.

And why would we assume a character snapping their fingers, reality-warping them out of existence would affect the space between them? There's no reason for that to be assumed to begin with simply by virtue of how the feat is being performed.