2-B Pre-Crisis

[ZephyrosOmega]

So I noticed that Darkseid got buffed to 2-B. I don't at all disagree with it, but I was wondering why it wasn't applied to anyone else. Superman and Green Lantern both have pre-crisis keys, as do (i assume) some other characters. Shouldn't they also be upgraded to 2-B?

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

Interesting question, but doesn't supes at times can get fodderized by Darkseid?

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

yes, but Darkseid in this case gets his tiering from scaling above superman, who is the one responsible for the feat.

 

[LordUrien935]

Darkseid's win against Odin and loss against Eru is also invalidated now that he's 2-B.

 

[LordTracer]

Darkseid was buffed to 2-B because of his scaling above Takion, who scales above Parallax. Superman definitely doesn't scale to that, and 2-B Superman was rejected in the thread that upgraded Darkseid.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Where was that thread curiously?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Where was that thread curiously?

In the Parallax AP thread I think

 

[LordTracer]

This one. It's quite long though, so you might have to go searching.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Time Trapper and Mordru were recently upgraded to 2-B. Darkseid scales above them for fodderizing both while he was low on power. He also scales above Takion, who scales above Parallax, who was upgraded to 2-B. Superman is actually probably most consistent where his is right now, deep into the 2-C category. These are all characters who are typically treated as significantly more powerful than Pre-Crisis Superman but not impossible for him to hurt. It's what you would expect of a high 2-C character fighting low 2-B characters.

 

[Jared1111]

To be fair, he is 2-C for his Timeline feat... but I don't think we ever got an approximate number on how many timelines he restored.

he very could be baseline 2-B at best, but still below all his larger foes.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Didn't his timeline feat said that he countered the deatruction and restored all POSSIBLE futures.

That sounds like countless 2-B

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

yeah no, he should be 2-B

 

[ClassicNESfan]

It was a feat performed before DC had any company standard for how many futures actually exist. We discussed it in the thread that upgraded Darkseid. 2-B was rejected by Knowledgeable Members in favor of a very strong 2-C rating. He's high enough into 2-C to damage some lower level 2-Bs, but putting him as straight 2-B really messes with the scaling and takes things too far.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Then give him "At least 2-C, likely 2-B". The phrase "Crisis on infinite earths" exists for a reason.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Yes, but that storyline happened many years later. DC had not established that infinite Earths existed when Superman and Jaxon performed their feat. Universes did exist with index numbers suggesting that there were a few hundred at that time, but DC was still feeling out how it wanted to portray the multiverse. Infinite universes only started popping up as a plot point further down the line.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

combat post flashpoint darkseid vs odin 4B was also erased

 

[Antvasima]

ClassicNESfan is correct.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Yes, but that storyline happened many years later. DC had not established that infinite Earths existed when Superman and Jaxon performed their feat. Universes did exist with index numbers suggesting that there were a few hundred at that time, but DC was still feeling out how it wanted to portray the multiverse. Infinite universes only started popping up as a plot point further down the line.

It was still countless possible futures. And it's not like pre VS post-crisis where there was an actual retcon. This is a feat being changed through getting more information that doesn't contradict what we already know. It can't be 2-C unless you ignore established, non-contradictory cosmology. The universes didn't just magically appear afterwards.

 

[Antvasima]

We cannot scale backwards retroactively, and a 2-A Superman would be too far above virtually all of his other feats.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

• looks at post-flashpoint*

it's not scaling backwards. It's updating a feat from new information given. It's like if a character dodged a bullet and later we learned that the bullet was lightspeed. Same principle on a larger scale. Besides, I'm pushing for 2-B, not 2-A, since this entire conversation about how many earths there are is pointless seeing as the feat is covering all the possible timelines for one earth, not one future for every earth.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

The Flashpoint power up was different because Superman was charged on more solar energy than he had ever been seen with before. It's the equivalent of a new form. What you're suggesting is upgrading a character to a level far beyond any reasonable collection of feats we have for them.

And no. It is nothing like your bullet analogy. It's more like if you were writing a western with science fiction elements and you had a character dodge a bullet during a bank heist. Then 7 years later in a completely different story, a completely different writer builds on the verse by explaining that the bullets fired in this world move at lightspeed. Those two things are not scalable because there is no evidence that's what you were trying to portray when you wrote the original feat.

Things like this are the reason we don't list the Anti-Monitor's base form as 5th dimensional, even though one of the characters he was fighting in Crisis on Infinite Earth was Thunderbolt, a 5th dimensional imp. Thunderbolt was not revealed to be a 5th dimensional imp until over a decade later. Why should that affect a feat performed long ago before there was any evidence of him being remotely that powerful?

 

[Jared1111]

I mean, 2-B isn't exactly impossible for an already high level 2-C character to achieve. Especially since hundreds of timelines could potentially be a few thousand or at least baseline 2-B at worst. It's also been pointed out he has shown the potential to harm or at least stagger 2-B characters like Fate and Darkseid (a weaker Darkseid fair enough but he'd still probably be 2-B) so it's not like he's unreasonably below the threshold.

I disagree with countless 2-B to be fair, as it was just all the possibilities of Earth One (which is numbered in hundreds to thousands) and 2-A does break the scale for characters like Fate or Mordru.

 

[Antvasima]

I still agree with ClassicNESfan. We should probably close this thread.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

I agree. I don't think this is going anywhere.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.