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Doctor Fate Revamp

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LordTracer

LordTracer

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Looking at Doctor Fate's profile, it appeared (at least to me) that it might need some editing.

- Nabu was able to trade blows with The Spectre, The Spectre also admitting that he was not powerful enough to defeat Doctor Fate in the past

- Kent Nelson KOed an evil Superman in a single blow, granted it was by taking advantage of his weakness to magic

- Kent took a blow from a mind controlled Superman and was only slightly dazed

- Kent taps into "the wellsprings of creation itself," and his power is felt in other universes

- The Spectre states Kent was nearly as powerful as him

- Kent manages to hold his own against The Spectre, although he is clearly at the disadvantage

- Inza Cramer harms The Spectre

- The Helm of Fate is stated by Zauriel to be capable of endangering all creation

- Fate is able to undo The Spectre's curse

Based on the feats listed above Kent Nelson should be 2-C, Kent+Inza should be At least 2-C, likely higher, and Nabu should also be At least 2-C, likely higher. This should also scale to the likes of Jim Corrigan, who fought Nabu, and Hal Jordan Spectre, who believed his power as The Spectre to be greater than that of Parallax, who defeated Spectre in Zero Hour.
 
- During the first scan, that was simply referring to the spectre sealing fate instead of actually destroying him, and we do know he got stronger anyway by spectre's own admission, and that the spectre himself during this comic was pretty loose in the head. With his power constantly differing even without a host, btw, unbound spectre, that is High 2-A

- Legit.

- Also Legit, iirc, they were mind haxxed by darkseid and Fate later restores their minds, it is pretty neat for mind manipulation aswell.

- Yeah, He does tap into the wellsprings of creation, but last time I checked, just tapping into a higher power source doesn't warrant an exact tier, like Force Users in Star Wars, Psykers from 40k, Golden King, basically every god in dc having a fraction of the God Wave in them, etcetera.


- I am pretty sure that is just a contradicted statement, the dude did literally stop that same powered up fate who "nearly rivaled him" with a single gesture, and was stated to be stronger than any other force nabu has encountered beforehand. There is also stuff like this

- To summarize the fight, Spectre stops him with a single gesture, Doctor fate rambles about how strong spectre is in comparison to him, some PIS about spectre not being able to divide himself, Spectre grabs him, Fate notes spectre is mentally weak, which in itself is consistent with Spectre's mental state completely changing how powerful he is. Spectre makes them both equal in size, and talks about how they are far from equals, as Spectre could kill Nabu if he wishes, Nabu confirms, with Fate stating even Nabu's power can't stop the Spectre, Spectre literally says he was holding back due to feeling pity for Fate, Fate is like "bro chill I am not defeated yet", Doctor Fate summons some monster from the Netherworlds as a last resort, Monster gets negged, Spectre just goes "alright this is it" and blasts him away from the place. This isn't a "good fight" , it is a complete one sided stomp for the spectre which barely qualifies for anything except durability basing off the last panel, but that would most likely just be spectre wanting to keep Fate alive, basing off the dialogue previously shown in the same fight.

- The Spectre was weakend during this 5 issue or so "chapter", with Spectre himself having a mental breakdown over his nature, which corrupted him to the point where he merged with Eclipso, the merge itself was unstable, and Jim's Soul was seperated from That Spectre, which we know weakens the Spectre. Btw, literally right after the merge we see Spectre 1 shotting Eclipso, quite different from them being implied to be on near equal grounds before the merging, which shows the power difference.

- Legit scan, until you start thinking about the statement even more, can you really say that nearly any of Fate's hosts actually mastered the power at all? If you can show that, then we have to get into the semantics of the Inconsistent definition of Creation within DC, but this would most likely be 2-A since it is from Zauriel, Albeit, Not that supported with other feats.

- The "Curse" Came from a Asmodel who didn't take Hal seriously and just turned him into glass and shattered him, iirc. It is not that much of a feat, also considering that fate's and basically every hero from earth and beyond couldn't even take down Asmodel directly within that comic. As they had to rely on Jim corrigan instead, which then turned into Hal coming back and taking the Spectre mantel.

On another note, I do think Fate has the potential to be 2-A due to other reasons, like directly tanking the creation of the multiverse, The Lords of Order and Chaos being implied to be relative to true form new gods (more than 2-A lol, but still), directly threatening the Sphere of Gods and the Multiverse in the New JLD comic, and other implications we get, I don't remember the fate runs I read that much tbh. Just the spectre runs.

Spectre never got defeated by ZHP parallax btw, all that happened was that Spectre got "damaged", came back, and did a feat which ZHP couldn't do basically (causing another big bang)
 
stated by a Green Lantern mystic named Torquemada that the Starheart is comprised of both light and dark energies, and was capable of darkly influencing the universe and other dimensions across DC via "ripples" (more on that later) , Torquemada also claims that if the Starheart isn't stabilized and if the evil half of the Starhear(that dude who looks like a cracked out cousin of Beta Ray Bill), then their reality would dissolute.


As the evil half of the Starheart (who sort of looks like a Cracked Out Beta Ray Bill) explained, the even trickles of escaped magic was capable of influencing the cosmos, and we see that a lot of previous events and bad vibrations/feelings of hate, war, evil etc were caused by these trickles of magic.The trickles of the Starheart's de-stablization are compared to a pebble being dropped into a still pool, and we see that it was capable of turning heroes into villains. [See that woman? That's Raven during her whole 90s evil phase during the Darkening. Meaning that it was capable of influencing her soul self.]

Alan Scott and Evil Starheart go at it, and it is implied to have reach that is felt across dimenions. From the Tower of Fate to even Hell.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/KN8hAGzhC...CDtA-4VmvEDpJM_T7uae3i0I8BJU1LZ2uEL9aZQ=s1600 https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ta6QTaVHB...FJLS-UEli459TKDIKJjhXGoco7LBx62gyNgjrVA=s1600 https://2.bp.blogspot.com/SA-Yc-jT-...gQI1gHgoenmmsjbSgLUYjb3T7W8D4QWKhLrxnLQ=s1600 https://2.bp.blogspot.com/TBGq6jhNK...lgmHBA5bXUYtPqq0_Rp1HjBthBP9WFDYpcaou5Q=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/sQeLctsKq...I3A7fsExzuWGCVX7VfRGdIccACNOinW6UW5H-BA=s1600

"Even one to whom worlds are as grains of sand, the ripples build to waves, but before any could reach out and intervene in the catalysm, it is..." So basically fraction of the Starheart's ripples, before it can even become something truly cataclysmic, can be felt by beings who exist in the Fourth World and by the likes of Multiversal Entities like the Spectre. Eventually the Starheart is released, but not all the magic is gone (which seems to be why the universe wasn't destroyed), said GL Mystic Torquemada sealed a portion of it in a Crystal Ball for use.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/a0fUrPe7q...A1DilI5GF0P5UUiInv5VdX1Oe9TBYxA7EbbqxGQ=s1600

Adds consistency to what the Starheart is shown to be capable of later on I guess, Oh and the narrative also notes that the likes of the Spectre would have intervened so that's also important information I suppose. shrugs

It's energy were released throughout the entire OMNIVERSE, which we know would still be greater than a universal construct, and would atleast rival a multiversal superconstruct regardless.

Mordu was able to completely neg a starheart Alan scott, who as his name suggests, was channeling the power of the Starheart, and then right after, he was fighting completely equally with Nabu, by the way, the scans do show that the Tower of Fate is a multiversal construct.

So yeah, 2-A Nabu or above makes sense imo.
 
Okay, so basically no scaling him to Spectre. Got it.

Based on the way Fate was talking, it seemed as if he was directly using all of said wellsprings. And really my main point there was that he was affecting other universes to drive home the point of Kent being 2-C.
 
Yup.

Hmm, after further reading the scan, Yeah, it actually does seem to make sense.

Anyway, I am for 2-A Or above Nabu, and 2-C Kent, the former for reasons different than the OP's
 
As for the ZH Parallax thing, it seemed pretty clear that Parallax won that fight, iirc Kyle even said Spectre had to sacrifice himself for the heroes to take Parallax down. And during Brightest Day (?) I believe it was implied by Hal Jordan that Parallax was superior to Jim Corrigan and that The Spectre feared him in general.

I agree with 2-A/High 2-A Nabu from your scans, btw.

Another thing, would Kent+Inza receive a "likely far higher" or "likely 2-A" on top of their 2-C rating? Because defeating two beings that threatened the balance of the multiverse should at the very least be 2-C, if not 2-A.
 
No, Spectre literally came back right after and poured all his energy into damage in order to cause another big bang my guy.

Kyle is just sorely mistaken, Kyle is the same dude who said Asmodel Spectre made Parallax look like a clown, btw, with Jim being a greater host than Asmodel due to the entire plot being centered around that basically. Also, The Whole Spectre "feared Parallax" thing is just inconsistent, specially for UNBOUND Spectre.

Yay.

Sandman already addressed they threatened the balance by leaving their respective party as "Lords of Chaos" which tipped and unbalanced the Multiverse, I don't think that correlates to stats, prolly does.
 
Mm, alright, the Parallax thing doesn't really matter anyways.

So, revision summary

- Doctor Fate is upgraded to 2-C in his first and second key.

- Nabu is upgraded to 2-A or High 2-A.
 
Yea, I already made a CRT regarding this not so long ago, I hope it doesn't get downgraded again.

This scan exists btw, good food for thought.

for more feats, to quote "AndrewBennet" In another thread.


"Dr Stoner Anti fate possessing a part of Nabu's power was able to beat the phantom stranger. And he has created an entire universe, the one in his helmet which was stated to be dissociated from all the other realities, was created by him.

Nabu alone was implied to be able to re-create the devastation that happened in Zero Hour

http://imgur.com/Y0KeA8p

Fate v1 20-22. Nabu also defeated a being with the power of every Lord of Order and Chaos

DC Heroes: Atlas of DCU guidebook:

http://i.imgur.com/sbsPXEv.png?1


Their conflict is eternal because chaos and order balance each other out, but when chaos gets the upper hand, then this happens (Dr fate v2 #10):

http://i.imgur.com/dZwoRU4.jpg

"

Also, Kent and Inza together arguably have 1-A/Presence level Hax, and not in the way you think, it is pretty funny, but deserves its own CRT, would barely be applied to vs battles and would most likely getting instantly rejected due to the idea, still fun.
 
@Ant Isn't Lephyr extremely busy due to IRL? Unless that has changed, I would suggest removing her/him from the list, it is far from personal, but seems to be more time efficient than asking someone consistently offline for a opinion on a thread.
 
I removed him from the list.
 
No problem.
 
Hykuu makes sense and thus I am in agreement with the upgrades.
 
I'll look into deeper when I have the chance, but at a glance I agree with the stuff Hykuu proposed. I will say that Fate is in the Captain Adam class of "jobs a lot" so I wouldn't suggest cross scaling a bunch.
 
That is true, but that most likely comes from inexperienced Doctor Fate's or something on the lines of that, outside of that, his Inconsistency nearly disappears, albeit he does have some pretty bleugh outliers here and there
 
We still need imput from some knowledgeable members, both here and in other current Marvel and DC Comics threads, and PrinceOfTheMorning and Sandman31 are unfortunately missing at the moment.
 
LordTracer said:
I've asked some of them to weigh in.
Click to expand...
Are you willing to ask the others as well?
 
Thanks.
 
I am unfortunately not comfortable with accepting this upgrade without more staff and/or knowledgeable member input.
 
The Helmet of Fate

As mentioned earlier, Zauriel claimed that the helmet of Fate could endanger all of creation, but here is a little more context for that statement. It should be mentioned that "all of creation" in this instance is definitely referring to the whole multiverse. In the very same comic, the helm of Fate was described as having recently traveled through "other dimensions, quantum singularities, and realms of dialectical space and meta-time, touring the spectacle of creation." It also gave Detective Chimp "infinite perception and infinite connections" by "laying bare all of existence at once." This is all a direct reference to an event that happened only a few issues earlier, wherein it is again described as having "passed through other dimensions" and "countless iterations of meta-space, under-space, weird-space, and downright odd-space." Obviously, a certain amount of this is nonsense, but the point is that "all of creation," "all of existence," and "the universe" are interchangable terms in this storyline, all referring to what we would traditionally describe as the multiverse.

Black Alice, a metahuman known for her ability to siphon energy from even DC's most powerful magical entities, claimed that the helmet of Fate was harder to drain than any other entity she had encountered, including the Spectre. This was a direct reference to her role in "Day of Vengance" wherein she managed to drain an unbound Spectre who had just recently stomped the 5 dimensional Thunderbolt. This is not the first time she has drained a High 2-A entity either. It could be argued that the helmet only resisted her more than the Spectre did because the Spectre was both caught off guard and not in the best mental place when she drained him, but even the fact that they are comperable is noteworthy, imo. As seen in the last scan, she still apparenly considers the Spectre the most powerful magical entity on Earth, supposedly including Fate and 5 dimensional imps.

As one last note on the matter, Black Alice also considers the helmet of Fate to be the most powerful magical artifact the world has ever known, and if she had managed to drain it then she would have been able to enslave everyone and everything for all of eternity.
 
I just wanna point out the black alice thing only applied to a weakend spectre (who was recently getting completely slapped by an amped shazam), before Black Alice encountered him, we know that Spectre does literally say he isn't at full power, but just enough power to fight some Nobodies, we do know that he was completely off guard so of course he wouldn't be fighting back to begin with.

I am just pointing out the Spectre scaling doesn't work, but the rest is fine, btw. I find it pretty funny in the context of the first few scans it was shazam who threw the helmet of fate, wild.
 
Other Fates

When it comes to being Doctor Fate, Nabu and the other Lords of Order considered Eric and Linda Strauss to be a joke compared to Kent Nelso. However, even they were capable of casually creating a shield to protect from an energy burst that created universes, and later they broke through a forcefield that even the Hindu god Indracould not shatter. This is significant because Indra claimed that if the power he possessed fell into the wrong hands it would endanger every plane across all of creation.

Hector Hall claimed he could channel the magic of "a hundred realms" and "a thousand worlds." (It's unclear if he's repeating himself or not.) He also once managed to punch Nabu's lights out.

And the combined forces of Hector Hall, Kent and Inza Nelson, and Eric and Linda Strauss was enough to forcibly drag Nabu into the Amulent of Anubis and keep him trapped there without power.
 
- Agreed

- Nabu taking mortal form makes him far weaker

- Seems legit, pretty sure constantine did the same aswell

Anyways can we chill with the scans for a second and wait for sandman and POTM (if needed, they did dip outta nowhere)
 
I don't think Nabu was mortal at the time Hector punched him. I could be misremembering, but I think the fight happened inside the amulent and both parties were sort of spirit beings. (I don't know how you scale that.) I also had one last post I wanted to make regarding some earlier mentioned misconceptions, but if you would rather me stop for now, I will.
 
Wait if they were spirit beings then how did Nabu get PUNCHED?

Anyway, yeah, you can address the misconceptions if you want
 
I dunno. Fate logic. At that time in continuity, Hector and Nabu sort of took turns going into the amulent and out of the amulent to inhabit Hector's body. Sometimes they're both in there at the same time, and they can shake hands, comfort each other, slap each other, etc, but it's clear that they only exist in spirit.
 
Some Misconceptions

Long ago, Kent and Inza Nelson used to be considered multiversal when working together as a single Doctor Fate. This tiering came from a battle he fought against Vandaemeon and Ynar, a renigade Lord of Chaos and Lord of Order respectively, who together supposedly threatened the multiversal balance in Immortal Doctor Fate #3. However, this tiering was later rejected- the feat no longer being considered multiversal- because Vanaemeon and Ynar supposedly only threatened the multiverse by virtue of being a hostile force that the other Lords of Chaos and Order were not willing to oppose, as doing so would necessitate first weakening their defenses against each other. You can see the situation explained in detail here. And while this described stalemate is an accurate summary of events, I do not think it is what makes Ynar and Vanaemon a threat to the multiverse in that story. If you reread the provided scan, Chaos and Order refusing to back down is simply used as an explanation for why Vanaemeon and Ynar were able to team up and hatch their scheme for multiversal domination in the first place. The danger they pose to the multiverse is more complicated than that.

Within the story, Ynar tricks Doctor Fate into investigating a strange mystical gem only to trap him inside of it without him knowing. From there, Fate, assuming he is in another dimension, finds himself in a tough fight against Vanaemo, where he really goes all out and even burns his sigal into the Lord of Chaos. Then after escaping, he discovers that this was all a coordinated effort by the two lords to imbue the gem with Fate's powers in addition to Vanaemon and Ynar's own powers, which they will then use to rewrite the multiverse. You can see them plotting to "refashion" the multiverse after Fate's death right here. You can see Fate lamenting that the gem is disrupting the multiverse here. The world was ending. Inza Nelson and the Tower of Fate were the only two things seemingly unaffected by the gem. Doctor Fate's initial attempts to break the gem were futile because an amped Vanaemon was easily capable of stopping him, so Nabu fused Inza and Kent into a more balanced and powerful Fate, they shattered the gem, and they easily banished the renegade Lords of Order and Chaos . I see no reason why this should not qualify as a multiversal feat. The refusal by other lords to intervine had little to nothing to do with how Vanaemon and Ynar were reshaping the multiverse, as far as I can tell. That being said, it is a weird story and I'm open to hearing other thoughts on the topic.
 
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