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1-A Imaginary & Metaphysics
- Thread starter Weaver261
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Udlmaster
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My conclusion is there should probably be more evidence to come to the conclusion of 1-A.
Even the one with Plato's cave analogy is still speculative on what the light projecting the shadows are, with the strongest argument there being someone's Stigmata believing its them (the Stigmatas).
It seems wayyyyy too speculative for any foundation in 1-A.
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Honestly, nothing from what I see showcase a Qualitative hierarchy from/of the Imaginary spaces. Only that it Feels more "real" and not IS more real.
For now, hard disagree with this.
For now, hard disagree with this.
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Since my stance was disagreeing. I will support Udl.
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I second on that.
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Still neutral, but we need more voting staff since right now we only have 2 disagrees.
(I miss @GarrixianXD)
(I miss @GarrixianXD)
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I would like to bring in a new direction to look at things from.
First, Plato's analogy of the cave.
He referred to the shadows as the particulars, the objects casting the shadows as the real world/true world, and the sun/flame as the 'form of the good'. One thing I would like to mention is that another word for 'form' would be the 'idea' of something.
Now, I don't believe it has been brought up yet, but the stigma space is also referred to as 'the world of ideas', which would correspond to the 'real world' in Plato's analogy.
It also makes sense in lore, as the goal of Project stigma was to move humanity to the stigma space, however, in doing so, it would also cause humanity to lose its individuality, living on as one single consciousness. This aligns with Plato's theory of forms, as there can only be one perfect 'form' of 'humanity'.
Due to the above, I believe that the cave analogy does hold up quite well, especially since it later mentions that the goal of Project Stigma was to transfer the humans, who were compared to the shadows on the wall, to the real 'true world', the Stigma space.
To go even a bit further, the imaginary tree is said to be the origin of all laws and truth.
Since the tree is the origin of truth, it can be seen as the sun/flame in the cave analogy since another term for 'form' would be 'truth'. It also means that ???'s assumption that Kevin sees himself as the flame is more valid than previously assumed, since If I remember correctly, he had already taken a piece of the Finality authority which is at least equal to the tree in terms of 'rank'.
And finally, there's the game server analogy of the tree.
Of course, this analogy could be purely metaphorical, but if my argument about the tree representing 'the form of good' holds up, this would be incredibly strong evidence for R>F transcendence.
I am aware that Telomera did "debunk" this, so I want to address that beforehand.
They said that this does not prove any quantitative or qualitative superiority in relation to the universes/leaves. However, that is only the case if you ignore the various other statements about the imaginary tree such as:
The tree having infinite universe and futures
https://imgur.com/a/7sHNCWt
The size of the tree (since the original was comparing the amount of honkai in one world vs the tree) being infinite in the sense of the transfinite, which would be either Aleph-1, Aleph-ω (not absolute infinity, which is denoted Ω) or an inaccessible cardinal, depending on how you interpret it.
Another way to look at the size of the tree compared to the universes would be likening number of base universes in the tree to the amount of natural numbers/integers (Aleph-0), and the amount of all possible futures at all possible times of those worlds to the amount of real numbers (Aleph-1).
Any way you slice it, there is at least an uncoutably infinite amount of leaves on the tree.
As for qualitative superiority, while it is true that a game server might not see the data it has as fiction, the person accessing the server would (ie. Cocoon, Otto) and you wouldn't say that a person is more real than a server. Not being able to alter save files also isn't an anti feat, because you wouldn't be able to alter a save file in real life. You can go back to the last save point, but everything afterwards would be a new save file, not an altered version of the original. Even if you delete the original and replace it, it still wouldn't be altering the original.
So in short, yes, this is valid evidence for R>F transcendence, even if it is not enough on its own, which is also why I specified that this is only strong evidence only when you believe that the tree is akin to 'the form of good'.
First, Plato's analogy of the cave.
He referred to the shadows as the particulars, the objects casting the shadows as the real world/true world, and the sun/flame as the 'form of the good'. One thing I would like to mention is that another word for 'form' would be the 'idea' of something.
Now, I don't believe it has been brought up yet, but the stigma space is also referred to as 'the world of ideas', which would correspond to the 'real world' in Plato's analogy.
It also makes sense in lore, as the goal of Project stigma was to move humanity to the stigma space, however, in doing so, it would also cause humanity to lose its individuality, living on as one single consciousness. This aligns with Plato's theory of forms, as there can only be one perfect 'form' of 'humanity'.
Due to the above, I believe that the cave analogy does hold up quite well, especially since it later mentions that the goal of Project Stigma was to transfer the humans, who were compared to the shadows on the wall, to the real 'true world', the Stigma space.
To go even a bit further, the imaginary tree is said to be the origin of all laws and truth.
Since the tree is the origin of truth, it can be seen as the sun/flame in the cave analogy since another term for 'form' would be 'truth'. It also means that ???'s assumption that Kevin sees himself as the flame is more valid than previously assumed, since If I remember correctly, he had already taken a piece of the Finality authority which is at least equal to the tree in terms of 'rank'.
And finally, there's the game server analogy of the tree.
Of course, this analogy could be purely metaphorical, but if my argument about the tree representing 'the form of good' holds up, this would be incredibly strong evidence for R>F transcendence.
I am aware that Telomera did "debunk" this, so I want to address that beforehand.
They said that this does not prove any quantitative or qualitative superiority in relation to the universes/leaves. However, that is only the case if you ignore the various other statements about the imaginary tree such as:
The tree having infinite universe and futures
https://imgur.com/a/7sHNCWt
The size of the tree (since the original was comparing the amount of honkai in one world vs the tree) being infinite in the sense of the transfinite, which would be either Aleph-1, Aleph-ω (not absolute infinity, which is denoted Ω) or an inaccessible cardinal, depending on how you interpret it.
Another way to look at the size of the tree compared to the universes would be likening number of base universes in the tree to the amount of natural numbers/integers (Aleph-0), and the amount of all possible futures at all possible times of those worlds to the amount of real numbers (Aleph-1).
Any way you slice it, there is at least an uncoutably infinite amount of leaves on the tree.
As for qualitative superiority, while it is true that a game server might not see the data it has as fiction, the person accessing the server would (ie. Cocoon, Otto) and you wouldn't say that a person is more real than a server. Not being able to alter save files also isn't an anti feat, because you wouldn't be able to alter a save file in real life. You can go back to the last save point, but everything afterwards would be a new save file, not an altered version of the original. Even if you delete the original and replace it, it still wouldn't be altering the original.
So in short, yes, this is valid evidence for R>F transcendence, even if it is not enough on its own, which is also why I specified that this is only strong evidence only when you believe that the tree is akin to 'the form of good'.
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Udlmaster
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Your evidence for him saying humanity is the shadow is someone literally speculating that Humanity is the Shadow.
Something which is rejected by Kevin later on.
Someone saying "I fear that" is them saying they're worrying it might be the case.
This is something that's self-evident.
Weaver261
He/Him- 1,348
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- Thread starter
- #131
The one who is speculating is a form born out of stigma. It's safe to say it's reliable. I also gave other evidences to prove why stigma are true things while humanity is shadow. Spiritual Adam, Imaginary and spirit being true essence. If you only take one scans and argue against proposal, it would bound to fall off since it's just one instant.
Udlmaster
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But you misunderstand. The issue isn't reliability, the issue is the entity themselves is speculating.
It's why I said I was almost convinced before but if the entity itself is unsure and others in the scene reject the idea, to then assume is speculatory and isn't enough for 1-A.
Maybe "possibly 1-A", but for certain? No.
Udlmaster
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Before I do, have we moved on from the speculatory part?
Weaver261
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- #135
I don't deny the entity is speculating but it's further reinforce by lore contexts. Just because one story instant speculated a fact that will be proven later or was proven already in some parts (unrelated to the entity), we can't dismiss all of that just because of this instant.
Udlmaster
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Right, but so far, that's the closest evidence presented, the rest, things like the Dream World girl and such aren't accurate.
Weaver261
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- #137
The rest isn't just Star Dream's part. Star Dream part is still valid since VSB standard for R>F clearly stated the lower world doesn't necessarily need to be the higher entity's creation. The important thing is how Star Dream is superior to the dream world.
The other evidences are also solidifying the fact that Imaginary is the idea, the abstract, the ultimate truth, the origin of laws and the true essence which birth the Cosmo. With project stigma's Spiritual Adam seeing humans as a dream, why do you still think these facts aren't accurate? They aren't just speculation, they are straight up facts.
Udlmaster
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We already went over that and why it's not relevant, so I'm not going to repeat myself. Refer back to my previous points.
The most you've shown is that concepts build from humanity's consciousness reside in the Imaginary Space and that it's the origin of the Universe and its laws.
This isn't enough for 1-A.
Weaver261
He/Him- 1,348
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- #139
No we haven't. You just assumed that universe is on the same level of existence as Star Dream while nowhere in the story indicated so. Imaginary space is clearly stated to defy reality constants. The rabbit universe is without a doubt a normal material universe considering they have galaxies and nebulae. Honkai verse has only two spaces, real space and imaginary space. Since Star Dream is in imaginary space while rabbit universe is clearly normal universe (real space), they are not on the same level of existence even before the dream world. Even though star dream didn't create the dream world, by vsb standard it should still qualify for R>F. We can let staffs to evaluate on this
Imaginary is stated to be true essence of Cosmo and the being. That means material world isn't true essence. Spiritual Adam from project stigma see humans as dream indicating R>F more. With plato cave allegory, imaginary being more real than reality is further reinforced. I don't understand why these aren't accurate or qualify for 1-A. Like instead of saying it's not qualify, just say why.
Udlmaster
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Any time.Thank you for helping out, Udlmaster.
No. I didn't. I said that the Universe is being projected into her dream. Nothing in the text says the Universe that's being projected into her dream is itself a dream.
Likewise, Star Dream clearly has no extraordinary powers, it's just in her dream world.
It's as silly as arguing everyone from DC comics is 1-A because they have access to the Dreaming and have multiple universes within.
The Dream being inferior to Star Dream only confirms that the Dream is 11-A or lower, not that the little girl with no powers, no special nature and who literally needs sleep, is involved in reality, time and space, is 1-A.
I don't find this 1-A material either. Supporting evidence perhaps, but for the same reasons I don't think Cthulhu is 1-A because of Non-Euclidean geometry, I don't find anything "defying reality's constants" to be foundational evidence.
I thought you'd argue this.
And this directly counters your assertion, because if Star Dream is projecting her dream in to a higher reality, then it has nothing to do with her, the Universe being projected into her dream is contained within a Higher reality, like a Universe being within a Multiverse.
Again, this is just what I said before about the Dreaming and Sandman;
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If I may add some things.
1. The stigma space is referred to as 'the world of ideas' which would correspond with the 'true world/world of forms' in Plato's cave analogy, and the Imaginary tree is the origin of all laws and truth, which would correspond with the sun/flame/form of the good in that same analogy.
It's also probably a good time to mention the ??? entity's claim of Kevin being the 'flame'. Kevin at this point should already have a piece of the finality's authority. Said authority is on the same rank as the tree, which would put it in the same tier as 'the form of the good'. So Kevin seeing himself as the flame isn't particularly unreasonable.
2. The relationship between the tree and the world it holds has been compared to the relationship between a game server and the data it has, which is evidence for R>F transcendence.
I apologize if you've already read the longer version of this reply, but since it wasn't addressed, I wanted to make sure you actually saw it.
Weaver261
He/Him- 1,348
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- Thread starter
- #143
Star dream is literally a godhead. Wdym she has no power
Most godheads in Babylon are compared to Will of Honkai in term of power.
You are making this confusing unnecessarily. The story is very simple. You got a rabbit universe which got projected into her dream. Since rabbit universe is material universe and star dream lives in imaginary space, star dream is ontologically superior to rabbit universe. What is it so hard to understand?
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That doesn't make sense. So it indeed is hard to understand.
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I'm slowly going to detach myself from this thread. You gotta wait for mods, I guess.
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From lookin at both stances and their points. I am leaning even harder on disagreeing with the proposal. Sorry
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I don't need to, in this instance, as Udl (as usual) explains stuff better than I ever can
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Anyone?What are the staff opinions here so far?
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So just to make sure, Ant is sided with udl who disagrees here right? that would make 1 disagreement?
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Apotheosis69 disagreed too, so it'll be 2 disagreements.
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TL helpers dont count, only thread mods admins and above
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Yeah. Only Thread Moderators and Admins/Bureaucrats Count as Staff votes
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Even if that’s the case, all staffs’ evaluation regardless of status have significant amount of influence nevertheless
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I prefer the quality of the arguments rather than the titles of the members. Yeah, it’s good to have mods’ input but they rarely satisfy much unless they are knowledgeable in the specific regard(That’s why mod inputs take a while since most of them like to stay within the frame of what they know).
Udlmaster
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Except me, because I read the posts and am always correct and cool and based and correct.
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