1-A Imaginary & Metaphysics

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Imaginary space is the word that encapsulates every space with imaginary nature. Within imaginary, there are variations like Honkai being a type of imaginary internal energy, stigmata space which is responsible for recording, etc... As you can see here everything outside real spaces is imaginary space but when somebody is dealing with imaginary space, they are dealing with a sector of it rather than relating to all imaginary space. These imaginary spaces can exists in infinite amount.

Yeah, but that's also just precisely the problem. I wouldn’t count portion of imaginary spaces as 1-A any more than the full infinite extent of it. That downscaling is a problem since being “outside real space” seems to refer to location without the basis needed for an ontological plane completely detached from the baseline level of reality. Unless, its some sort of permeating force that is the ground from which all the material world is based and exists due to it.

While an argument can be made for “ideas shaping reality and whatnot” I see it as symbiotic relationship between the two. Most claims would rely on transcending reality in Imaginary Space as something that's not higher dimensional in accordance to place within the same framework but a complete jump in existence, in a way, that's where I don't see it. The Dream section kind of shows that it isn't purely an ontological jump.

Everything12 disagreed with star dream's part becuz R>F happened not due to her powers but rather other's actions. But you have to remember that Star Dream is already existing in imaginary space which is ontologically superior to real space in which the rabbit civilization exists. They just moved into her dream after their universe collapsed. So, R>F didn't happened. It was already R>F even before the migration.

Why is it ontologically superior? Name-dropping ontological really doesn't account for much. Is her “dream” truly perceived the universe being some sort of non-existent thing in her mind? If not then it would just be a dream that's the fictional substance of one imagination which is common.

Star dream parts aren't the only thing that is supporting R>F. I have presented tons of evidences of why imaginary is more real than material world. I would like know why you think these parts are weak for 1-A.

I'll reread the OP to see. The other cases as I've seen relies on “transcending” and “sustaining” reality but that's honestly something that can be produced by higher-dimensional states and not a 1-A existence.

 

[Weaver261]

Unless, its some sort of permeating force that is the ground from which all the material world is based and exists due to it.

That's why I added these

Black Swan once said :
According to this, spirit is the true essence of the cosmo and the beings. Imaginary is also stated as "metaphysical aggregation of the spirit". So, we can say Imaginary is the true essence of the cosmo. It's also stated here as the origin of the universe and the place where all essences and roots are formed.

Why is it ontologically superior? Name-dropping ontological really doesn't account for much. Is her “dream” truly perceived as the universe being some sort of non-existent thing in her mind? If not then it would just be a dream that's the fictional substance of one imagination which is common.

As I said before, name dropping ontology is just to let ppl know that this subject exists in this verse and how Metaphysics is portrayed. The last line of the story stated this

There is a sleeping girl in Babylon Academy, her name is Star Dream. If there is nothing important, please don't wake her up. Because she is maintaining the operation of an entire universe.

If this isn't R>F, I don't know what's.

1. Star Dream's description stated "Is that bizarre dream a reflection of chaotic thinking, or a real existence?" meaning the dreaming is just a normal type of dream rather than R>F.
Ans - This is the biography description which can be seen first when you obtain the awaken. The rest of the kizuna are locked at first but later unlock with currency. The last kizuna part stated "If there is nothing important, please don't wake her up. Because she is maintaining the operation of an entire universe." indicate that she is indeed maintaining the entire universe by dreaming.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

That's why I added these

I've read over them(after I said I would reread the OP for missed context) but it doesn't require 1-A for those things to be true. I can see an argument that “essence” being brought forth by Imaginary Space would be enough if the essence purely is a state that's beyond the existence of the baseline level of existence. Then again, a higher dimensional plane to which the material world can be based off of may just be the case here.

As I said before, name dropping ontology is just to let ppl know that this subject exists in this verse and how Metaphysics is portrayed. The last line of the story stated this

“Maintaing the operation of the Universe” isn't exactly a stronge case here. What goes on in the Universe in her dreams could just mean she has a direct correlation to helping out this lesser Universe. Unless the universe in question exists at the same level as the reality she occupies yet that's goes against the whole logic that she likes to sleep in order to imagine these things, that's sort of seems distinct from her power.

If this isn't R>F, I don't know what's.

Is the Universe connected to the reality she occupies? Is the reality the real substance in which is unreal to her? In the way it was described it seems more like a visage between just being asleep and imaging something as opposed to the whole of reality being her very dreams.

Best just to wait for the mods input.

 

[Weaver261]

I can see an argument that “essence” being brought forth by Imaginary Space would be enough if the essence purely is a state that's beyond the existence of the baseline level of existence. Then again, a higher dimensional plane to which the material world can be based off of may just be the case here.

Imaginary and reality are entirely different things. The name itself already implied it's some sort of mental existence rather than material existence. This is further proven true by imaginary being the ideas, the abstract, the forms, being the true essence compare to reality (this means material world isn't true essence), with spiritual Adam seeing humans as dreams, stigma being the true all thing with humans being shadows. Idk what's more needed for it to qualify 1-A honestly

Is the Universe connected to the reality she occupies? Is the reality the real substance in which is unreal to her? In the way it was described it seems more like a visage between just being asleep and imaging something as opposed to the whole of reality being her very dreams.

The universe is inferior to imaginary space. The Honkai verse has only two space, real space and imaginary space. If star dream exists in imaginary space, we can assume this rabbit universe is real space. It's a simple deduction. I also explained you how these stories are unlocked with in game currency.
First in her bio description, they added this question

Is that bizarre dream a reflection of chaotic thinking, or a real existence?

And it's answered in the last kizuna story.

"So - this, in fact, is the universe, which is resting in your dream."
...
There is a sleeping girl in Babylon Academy, her name is Star Dream. If there is nothing important, please don't wake her up. Because she is maintaining the operation of an entire universe.

That shows the rabbit universe is a real existence, not just random imagination or dream. The real Universe is resting in her dream means it's R>F. Just like how spiritual adam see the humanity as a dream.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Imaginary and reality are entirely different things. The name itself already implied it's some sort of mental existence rather than material existence. This is further proven true by imaginary being the ideas, the abstract, the forms, being the true essence compare to reality (this means material world isn't true essence), with spiritual Adam seeing humans as dreams, stigma being the true all thing with humans being shadows. Idk what's more needed for it to qualify 1-A honestly

The universe is inferior to imaginary space. The Honkai verse has only two space, real space and imaginary space. If star dream exists in imaginary space, we can assume this rabbit universe is real space. It's a simple deduction. I also explained you how these stories are unlocked with in game currency.
First in her bio description, they added this question

And it's answered in the last kizuna story.

That shows the rabbit universe is a real existence, not just random imagination or dream. The real Universe is resting in her dream means it's R>F. Just like how spiritual adam see the humanity as a dream.

I'll ask the mods about it. I don't have much more input as far as wanting to agree.

 

[Antvasima]

If I understood correctly, @Everything12 is currently neutral regarding this upgrade.

@Emirp sumitpo @Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @RatherClueless @GrathOfLux @Udlmaster

What do you think about this?

 

[Weaver261]

Bump

 

[Everything12]

While I still Disagree to Star Dream part of the CRT, on reconsideration I'm more unsure on the strength of platonic-like aspect while it does make some sense, so I'd say I'm instead Neutral there and am open to further reconsideration based off what other staff say.

I disagree with some parts, but are neutral to other. So I guess you can say I'm overall neutral tor this thread.

 

[Udlmaster]

If I understood correctly, @Everything12 is currently neutral regarding this upgrade.

@Emirp sumitpo @Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @RatherClueless @GrathOfLux @Udlmaster

What do you think about this?

Star Dream lives in Babylon which is part of Imaginary Space. So, we can conclude that Imaginary Space is also 1-A. Following that, Aeons will also have 1-A by extension. Are we done yet? Hell nah, we will be exploring metaphysics to support 1-A for imaginary space.

I'm not sure if this has been addressed yet but is there anything indicating that we should treat the Dreamworld as anything other than inferior to the standard world? By which I mean the World as whatever tier and the Dreamworld as being 11-A

And if it's a Universe of Cognition that people "travel" to in their Dreams, I don't see anything to say it should be superior to the standard world to warrant it being 1-A. So far, you have embodiments of Philosophical concepts and someone potentially creating their own universes in the realm when they sleep but I don't see qualitative differences from that alone.

 

[Weaver261]

By which I mean the World as whatever tier and the Dreamworld as being 11-A

I don't quite understand what you mean by that. Here's a simple explanation.
Real Space aka Material Word = H1-C due to having 11D
Imaginary space = 1-A due to Qualitative Superiority

That's all.

And if it's a Universe of Cognition that people "travel" to in their Dreams, I don't see anything to say it should be superior to the standard world to warrant it being 1-A

Imaginary space isn't dream world. Dreams are more like intermediate between reality and imaginary. This dialogue should show that explicitly

Theresa: They’d get lost in the initial dream… Like the St. Freya where Himeko was that I dreamed of…

Will of Stigmata: Yes. Their consciousness will be converted into an existence the same as Stigmata and recede to the interstice of the Imaginary world. Correspondingly…

Dream only gives you consciousness which will then be converted into stigma (form), these stigmata will exist in imaginary world (space).

About the star dream's universe, it's just a normal universe which is inferior to imaginary space. Star dream already exists in 1-A realms, not in standard world as you call it.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

I don't quite understand what you mean by that. Here's a simple explanation.
Real Space aka Material Word = H1-C due to having 11D

isnt this only for bubbles, and leaf worlds low 2C or am i missing something?

Imaginary space = 1-A due to Qualitative Superiority

That's all.

Imaginary space isn't dream world. Dreams are more like intermediate between reality and imaginary. This dialogue should show that explicitly

Dream only gives you consciousness which will then be converted into stigma (form), these stigmata will exist in imaginary world (space).

About the star dream's universe, it's just a normal universe which is inferior to imaginary space. Star dream already exists in 1-A realms, not in standard world as you call it.

ryusuke having R>F as a hde being should be enough to massively upscale actual otological metaphysical metagirlbefore?physical superiority on top of litteraly exisitng withing the dimensionaly transcendent space

 

[Weaver261]

isnt this only for bubbles, and leaf worlds low 2C or am i missing something?

I mean all real spaces without considering imaginary would be 11D. Each leaf world is 4D. Bubble worlds are meant to mimic proper leaf world. Considering that, I think each leaf world should have universally shared 11D.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm not sure if this has been addressed yet but is there anything indicating that we should treat the Dreamworld as anything other than inferior to the standard world? By which I mean the World as whatever tier and the Dreamworld as being 11-A

And if it's a Universe of Cognition that people "travel" to in their Dreams, I don't see anything to say it should be superior to the standard world to warrant it being 1-A. So far, you have embodiments of Philosophical concepts and someone potentially creating their own universes in the realm when they sleep but I don't see qualitative differences from that alone.

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Udlmaster]

I don't quite understand what you mean by that. Here's a simple explanation.
Real Space aka Material Word = H1-C due to having 11D
Imaginary space = 1-A due to Qualitative Superiority

But is it?

I understand the part where it says;

"Here, all unknown and unimaginable things can be realized".

&

"Phenomena impossible in reality might be common place on that side".

But this doesn't seem like enough on its own to support a full jump to 1-A, from what it seems, it's a place of raw potentiality.

Many verses have spaces like that, Conceptual spaces of potential but don't reach 1-A because they lack

This dialogue should show that explicitly

But isn't that talking about how it's dangerous to be in the Imaginary Space not necessarily that Dreams are an intermediary, since it seems they take place in the same space.

From what I can see, it seems to be the spawning ground of Creation, which would track with it being a space of raw potentiality, but this wouldn't make it superior (at least not in a qualitative sense) to the Universe and the Bubble Worlds, just their origin point.

 

[Weaver261]

But this doesn't seem like enough on its own to support a full jump to 1-A, from what it seems, it's a place of raw potentiality.

That's not the important part for ontological superiority. My main point is Imaginary being real while reality isn't.

But isn't that talking about how it's dangerous to be in the Imaginary Space not necessarily that Dreams are an intermediary, since it seems they take place in the same space

No, they are talking about project stigma. Project stigma is a plan to convert all of humanity into a single entity comparable to the existence of cocoon of finality (imaginary being).

From what I can see, it seems to be the spawning ground of Creation, which would track with it being a space of raw potentiality, but this wouldn't make it superior (at least not in a qualitative sense) to the Universe and the Bubble Worlds, just their origin point.

You should read the metaphysical parts again to understand what I am proposing here. It's more than just origin point.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Within Hoyoverse, we know that Ontology (State of being) exists. If it does, then when mentioning "higher planes" or "transcendence," the context given would go along with the narrative unless stated otherwise. The IM-Space, in its root, is some type of ontological abstraction in which its state lies beyond the normal conceptions of space and time, which said space and time make up physical vectors.
These are clearly evidences of ontological superiority. Overall, Imaginary space checks all mark to pass 1-A standards. But there's things that are imaginary but don't qualify for 1-A existence. They are man-made Imaginary spaces superposed onto the real world.
Side note - In case you are confused about Imaginary tree and imaginary space, I will explain that in a simple way. Imaginary tree is a theoretical model and not literally a tree. It is used when describing about the Universe. The Universe is filled with infinite space times which are real spaces. And everything outside that is Imaginary space which is infinite. So, Universe (IMG Tree) = Real Space + IMG space.

Conclusion :
Imaginary space is the true essence and the origin of the universe. It exists beyond reality and transcends reality. It carries no dimensional information and doesn't exist in any dimension you can get in touch directly.It's the world of ideas where conceptual beings reside. Star Dream and Spritual Adam are capable of dreaming the actual universes.
The Scaling :
Babylon Godheads and Outer Gods - 1-A physically
Aeons - 1-A physically
Cocoon of Finality Kevin and Kiana - High 1-C physically with 1-A by Authority
False God Otto - High 1-C physically with 1-A by Authority

I dont know much abt godheads, but 1-A scaling from Imaginary Space is generally fine to me, especially bolded part on top of that theres also bunch of mentioning of transcendence in general, mainly from kianas BDE which was for some reason nuked to bde type 1 without being properly adressed (the entire low 1-A downgrade was about absolute infinity), her dimensional transcendence is supported by the fact shes also said to exist within "unknown" imaginary space (which read the bolded part from OP again). Combined with the fact all herrschers are nothing but a shadow to finality. Which is why she has every Authority due to finality being one true herrscher authority including Ottos imaginary authority which is just power granted from Imaginary Tree which also scales to 1-A. (the classic amp from 1-A being ahh feat) so this also gives a nice upscale for IT and IMG space itself.
On top of that OP has put bunch of R>F supportive stuff for Tree and theres also difference between higher existence to lower existence is akin to writer and a book, which to me is a cherry on top for supporting actual qualitative superiority from Tree and IMG space towards the Proper worlds aka Real Space.
if this isnt enough its at least enough for low 1-A for kiana aeons and godheads alone.

 

[Udlmaster]

mentioning of transcendence in general

Before I reply the other post, I did check out what the untranslated scan says, and the phrase doesn't always mean transcend in that way, it can mean to detach from reality or to go beyond it.

(Which is one of the reasons why I can't like works that need translation because it becomes literal semantics)

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Before I reply the other post, I did check out what the untranslated scan says, and the phrase doesn't always mean transcend in that way, it can mean to detach from reality or to go beyond it.

(Which is one of the reasons why I can't like works that need translation because it becomes literal semantics)

i understand, but the context still talks about Otto exceeding beyond the Real World to go into the imaginary tree, on top of that he actually creates imaginary space using the part of trees power

 

[RigelBR7]

In addition to there not being enough evidence for this Imaginary Space to be 1-A, it is also ambiguous, and from what I saw above, it breaks all logic of qualitative superiority. Also about dreaming about all the mechanics of a reality, depending on where it fits, it can be something subjective to reality. At the moment, I disagree for the reasons above.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions so far in this thread?

 

[Weaver261]

So what are the conclusions so far in this thread?

Those who gave their votes are waiting for other staffs opinions to be sure about this. There's no conclusion yet for now

 

[Udlmaster]

i understand, but the context still talks about Otto exceeding beyond the Real World to go into the imaginary tree, on top of that he actually creates imaginary space using the part of trees power

I wouldn't say beyond the real world, just he's going to the places outside them, outside the Imaginary Tree

 

[PedjaTarzan]

I wouldn't say beyond the real world, just he's going to the places outside them, outside the Imaginary Tree

hes verbatim stated to transcend reality so its not just going places outside. also wheres he stated to be outside imaginary tree?

 

[Udlmaster]

hes verbatim stated to transcend reality so its not just going places outside. also wheres he stated to be outside imaginary tree?

We just discussed that. The original where you're translating "transcend" can also be translated as "to go beyond" or "to detach from"

 

[PedjaTarzan]

We just discussed that. The original where you're translating "transcend" can also be translated as "to go beyond" or "to detach from"

do you talk abt this text? might gonna get some TL helper here dunno.

 

[Udlmaster]

do you talk abt this text? might gonna get some TL helper here dunno.

They use the same phrase

 

[Weaver261]

We just discussed that. The original where you're translating "transcend" can also be translated as "to go beyond" or "to detach from"

Well, if it's just outside of real space, how would the imaginary have higher existence than reality? It doesn't make sense that way. Imaginary is shown to be higher existence, powerful existence than reality everytime. Imaginary is even the abstract idea from which the reality born from. It's only right to translate that into "Transcend" if we consider the whole context. En localization also used "Transcend"

 

[Weaver261]

Bump

 

[Udlmaster]

Well, if it's just outside of real space, how would the imaginary have higher existence than reality?

It wouldn't have to, it could just be outside of reality, with reality sitting inside of it like a bathtub and rubber ducky.

Imaginary is even the abstract idea from which the reality born from.

Okay but is it though? Because from what's shown in the OP, Abstracts just reside there, and with it being a pure, raw possibility, I don't see why that would matter.

And these Abstracts are direct creations of human consciousness, they're not concepts like Forms;

The origin of these "familiars," like many of the fantastical elements in this world, stems from projections of the human world. Humans hold diverse perceptions—of fairy tales, princesses, adventures... All such concepts are recreated and integrated in this new world through alternative means, either manifesting as unique lifeforms or emerging abruptly as landscapes in certain locations.

And none of this seems to me to indicate 1-A.

Even reading the story for the dream girl, it's not the case that the Universe she maintains is sustained by any actual power but more so a consequence of Dreams forming reality.

This isn't a 1-A power situation, this is beings with the power to manipulate a type of Dreaming. Hardly any different than things like the Dreaming from Sandman.

It's further backed up by the Rabbit explaining that his civilisation projected their Universe into other dimensions and eventually hit her Dream and her Dream became their universe, meaning it's not her creation, it's just using the Dream.

 

[Weaver261]

It wouldn't have to, it could just be outside of reality, with reality sitting inside of it like a bathtub and rubber ducky.

The problem is reality and imaginary are entirely different existences. Unlike the analogy of yours which has both material existences.

Okay but is it though? Because from what's shown in the OP, Abstracts just reside there, and with it being a pure, raw possibility, I don't see why that would matter.

And these Abstracts are direct creations of human consciousness, they're not concepts like

The point I am trying to make here is, the imaginary being more real than reality. I have shown multiple proofs of why. It's not just abstract nor it's just raw possibility.
The scan you are quoting is about wonderland where concepts are reproduced. Wonderland isn't the place which birth the Cosmo.

It's further backed up by the Rabbit explaining that his civilisation projected their Universe into other dimensions and eventually hit her Dream and her Dream became their universe, meaning it's not her creation, it's just using the Dream.

Does it really need to be her creation? As far as I know about R>F, you just need ontological superiority in a form of fiction (eg. Dreams) The fact that her existence being more real than the dream universe already indicate R>F. I don't understand the logic of how it shouldn't be qualified.

However, it can also be applied to any character who authors a lower world of existence or even a 'player' who simply consumes the media rather than authors it.

I have shown multiple scans each connecting to another to present the whole idea of Imaginary being more real than reality. But you keep snipping out a portion of it which would cause problems cuz you are not connecting the scans.

It's already explained how Spirit is the true essence of the cosmo which is imaginary where Cosmo is born from. How imaginary entity like Spiritual Adam being able see humanity as just dreams and stigmata being the forms that will eventually create new humans this stigmata being the true thing while humanity is the shadow.

Imaginary is continuously shown to be superior to reality in term of power and existence throughout the game. Just saying "Imaginary is just outside of reality" won't really refute the claims before.

 

[Telomera]

Does it really need to be her creation? As far as I know about R>F, you just need ontological superiority in a form of fiction (eg. Dreams) The fact that her existence being more real than the dream universe already indicate R>F. I don't understand the logic of how it shouldn't be qualified.

No. It also needs to be made clear that the lower world is "not really real" or that the higher world is "more real," and directly as a result of its being "not really real," being insubstantial compared to the higher world in a manner that is not quantitative. Of course, this analogy would naturally lend itself to mean this, but the text actually needs to clarify this. What exactly do they mean by "humans are the shadows on the wall, and Stigmata are all things true outside the cave"?

Also, where are you getting the allegory of the cave scan? You just put a bunch of text down but didn't give an actual scan. You need to give actual scans.

Imaginary is continuously shown to be superior to reality in term of power and existence throughout the game. Just saying "Imaginary is just outside of reality" won't really refute the claims before.

Well in a quantitative sense, yes. But that's not enough for 1-A or even Low 1-A.

 

[Udlmaster]

The problem is reality and imaginary are entirely different existences. Unlike the analogy of yours which has both material existences.

Well, that's what we're arguing. Leading with the conclusion won't get us anywhere.

The point I am trying to make here is, the imaginary being more real than reality.

Which is what we're arguing, yes.

I have shown multiple proofs of why.

You've given your evidence, but as I've shown above, it's not conclusive. The issue here isn't amount, it's the quality.

The scan you are quoting is about wonderland where concepts are reproduced. Wonderland isn't the place which birth the Cosmo.

If by concepts you mean the Godheads, I already discussed that part.

They're created by cognition and faith. You didn't even provide any scans to prove that the Godheads and Aeons are the same, just asserted it.

It being the origins of the Universe don't mean it's qualitatively superior either. Hence why not every single Void is 1-A or every Big-bang.

Does it really need to be her creation?

Yes for your argument to work the way you're arguing it. Because it's not a Universe that's unreal to her. It's a real Universe that's being projected into her Dream and hides there.

This is like arguing Gruncle Stan should be 1-A+ because Bill Cipher was in his head and is therefore qualitatively different to him.

But you keep snipping out a portion of it which would cause problems cuz you are not connecting the scans.

I'm not snipping anything, I'm using your own evidence to show your argument isn't as sound as you make it out to be.

Imaginary is continuously shown to be superior to reality in term of power and existence throughout the game.

It might be. But the evidence you've provided doesn't support it being a qualitative superiority.

Just saying "Imaginary is just outside of reality" won't really refute the claims before.

I'm providing an equally plausible conclusion based on the evidence provided to show that your conclusion isn't concrete.

And if just pointing that out is able to discredit the certainty of your argument, I don't see why we should all agree to it being 1-A, which has more strict guidelines.

 

[Weaver261]

What exactly do they mean by "humans are the shadows on the wall, and Stigmata are all things true outside the cave"?

Also, where are you getting the allegory of the cave scan? You just put a bunch of text down but didn't give an actual scan. You need to give actual scans.

The texts I am giving are a lot for just to put them in imgur album, you can play or watch project stigma story from chapter 31ex for these scans.

Well in a quantitative sense, yes. But that's not enough for 1-A or even Low 1

When it's said, it is in quantitative sense? I have provided multiple scans pointing qualitative superiority.

 

[Udlmaster]

The texts I am giving are a lot for just to put them in imgur album, you can play or watch project stigma story from chapter 31ex for these scans.

Okay, but doing the research part isn't for us to do.

If you don't have the scans or sources available, ask for a pause and continue your searches, don't foist it off on us when you was supposed to have done this prior to making the thread.

You cannot reasonably throw over 2 hours of gameplay and say "this is my source" because I'm sorry but no one has time to spend 2 hours watching scantily clad women and girls waffle at each other.

 

[Telomera]

The texts I am giving are a lot for just to put them in imgur album, you can play or watch project stigma story from chapter 31ex for these scans.

I just asked for the part with the allegory of the cave. Just give me the timestamp at least, that should be easy enough.

 

[Telomera]

You cannot reasonably throw over 2 hours of gameplay and say "this is my source" because I'm sorry but no one has time to spend 2 hours watching scantily clad women and girls waffle at each other.

Yurif**s BTFO

 

[Weaver261]

Okay, but doing the research part isn't for us to do.

If you don't have the scans or sources available, ask for a pause and continue your searches, don't foist it off on us when you was supposed to have done this prior to making the thread.

You cannot reasonably throw over 2 hours of gameplay and say "this is my source" because I'm sorry but no one has time to spend 2 hours watching scantily clad women and girls waffle at each other.

Well, the one who asked was Telomera who supposedly should have knowledge about the game. I assumed he played the game since he is the one making continuous Honkai downgrade threads.

You can read it from here, go to "Shadow in a cave" section

 

[Udlmaster]

You can read it from here, go to "Shadow in a cave" section

Reading that, you was this close to convincing me until;

???: Oh? That’s an interesting answer. But Kevin, don’t tell me you’ve…

???: …Taken yourself as that fire in the cave?

Kevin in the analogy is the one projecting the Shadows as the Light.

Just like how in Gravity Falls, GIFfany and Rumble McSkirmish don't make the base Gravity Falls universe 1-A, in this case, it wouldn't change anything, since it's inferior.

 

[Weaver261]

Kevin in the analogy is the one projecting the Shadows as the Light.

Just like how in Gravity Falls, GIFfany and Rumble McSkirmish don't make the base Gravity Falls universe 1-A, in this case, it wouldn't change anything, since it's inferior.

Kevin is the one who leads the project stigma. Ofc he will be the light which will transform shadow (humans) into true forms (stigma) through project stigma. That lines you gave were followed up by this

Will of Stigmata: Stigmata record their knowledge and your history. If we apply that allegory to our civilisation…

Will of Stigmata: I fear that humans are the shadows on the wall, and Stigmata are all things true outside the cave.

Sorry, I don't get your other shows references. But I don't see anything that would contradict my proposal of 1-A.

 

[Hjdjdhf]

These feels bold, and I don't know what to say.