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Hi3 scaling chain rework.

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PlungingThroughTime

PlungingThroughTime

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This is one of two (2nd here) CRTs, to simplify and change the overall Hi3 scaling chain. This CRT will:

A: Debunk L1C Durandal.
B: Prove Divine Key power output is variable.
C: Establish the Theatre of Domination as a L1C (5D) construct.

Let's begin.

Point A: Removing this feat from scaling: (Nuke of Low Complex Multiversal Chainscale) - This nukes all the low-end L1-C scaling in the verse.
It’s been accepted that this bubble worlds have compactified dimensions. Any feat with bubbles that involves affecting dimensions is not scalable, as bubbles are finite in size. As we know, bubble’s sizes vary significantly and they mirror the leaf worlds in the universe.
Bubble’s sizes can go from as small as a planet, all the way to as high as a universe. (Note that if you disagree with this it doesn’t change the point of the following).
So for scaling: The bubble worlds would instead be the size of an average solar system (unless contradicted), just as we have it for leaf worlds. This feat of Durandal destroying her bubble world and its dimensions are 4-B with extradimensional range.
They’re also debatably 4-A:
To prove bubble worlds are 4-A in size, there’s this bubble world with a starry sky in the background and this one with even more obvious 4-A scaling
There’s this scan for Holy Sword Durandal that also has power to destroy bubble worlds
These scans also count for the bubble world scaling with Bronya and Welt. Welt creates these bubble worlds while Bronya destroys one. Creation feats scale regardless as UES.

This proves characters like Welt, Bronya and Durandal can all get a Multi-Solar System rating based on feats of creating/destroying bubble worlds with their power. Anyone stronger than this weakened Welt, 12 year old Durandal and non-HoR Bronya’s Star of Eden should scale.

Point B: Variable Divine Keys
Establishing scaling with the Star of Eden is necessary as a recent HSR CRT portrayed the SoE’s output as fixed. Obviously not the case. The Star of Eden has multiple smaller showings. Bronya with her Zeroth Power only destroyed a 4-A world while Welt obviously has his 2-A feat.

Other Divine Keys like the Judgement of Shamash are capable of using Honkai Energy to charge and thus exhibit greater power. The Judgement of Shamash is accepted as the most destructive Divine Key, yet even this is capable of running out of power with extreme overuse. Herrscher Cores pull Honkai Energy from Imaginary Space to charge just like Herrschers do, the only distinction is Herrschers can continuously pull more energy from Imaginary Space while Divine Keys take considerably longer to do this. This means the energy within the Star of Eden should also be variable and its AP dependent on:

Just as an added bonus, all the Divine Keys are made of soulium (nanobots) so there's no difference in material either. They're functionally the same other than their Herrscher cores.


Point C: (Establishing the Theatre of Domination as a higher-dimensional, infinite realm, causing its creation and destruction to be L1C)
In Chapter 27 Bronya managed to destroy the Theatre of Domination, the entire realm was destroyed, as shown by Rita and Bronya being sent directly to the Sea of Quanta.
This realm is noted to be boundless and infinite in this scan, bottomless in this scan, and also to have more dimensions than base reality. (4D)
More evidence for the higher dimensional theatre: Otto rendered a singular Herrscher core of Domination ‘only effective in extra dimensions’.
Herrschers are also stated to be able to control higher-dimensional space adding credibility to the idea of the Theater of Domination being a higher dimensional space created by the Herrscher of Domination.

If this scaling gets accepted the 3-C ratings for Bronya and anyone stronger than her are removed. They’re replaced with a L1-C rating. This applies to Bronya, the Herrscher of Domination (via creating the realm) and anyone stronger than them. They’ll get placed at Low 1-C post Theatre of Domination, effectively making L1-C much more exclusive.

This applies to characters like Herrscher of Thunder (HoT) Mei (as of Chapter 25) and Herrscher of Flamescion (HoFS) Kiana.

Agree (3): Emirp sumitpo, Vietthai, Planck69
(1 Admin required)
 
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honkai: chainscale 3rd...

honkai: chainscale rail...

agree i read this before
 
PlungingThroughTime said:
To prove bubble worlds are 4-A in size, there’s this bubble world with a starry sky in the background and this one with even more obvious 4-A scalin
Click to expand...
In regards to this, I do have a few words to say.

To begin with, I should start by presenting the actual size of the Seed of Sumeru (a bubble world):
IMG-9756.jpg

^ Which is slightly bigger than a small island with a tree.

Yet, from within the world, we can see this:
IMG-9757.jpg

Which is an entire sky. Meaning there’s a sort of complete disjunction between how the actual bubble world is, and how one perceives it from within.

And even if you claim that it only contains clouds, that would still require a massive size difference.

And to top it off, when Kevin destroys the world, this is how it appears:

IMG-9758.jpg

The crack of the world itself actually happens below the sky, which would be consistent with the actual size of the bubble world.

Now, it might be a special aspect of the Seed of Sumeru itself, but I can’t recall any statement like that at the moment. In any case, all I’m saying is that we ought to be more cautious when using the sky as a scaling precedent for these worlds, because it does appear that they can just be fake lol.

Some T4 rating is warranted in the worst case possible anyhow. Otto directly mentions that you can find a replica of the solar system, so Dudu should at the very least scale to that.

Now unto ToD:
PlungingThroughTime said:
bottomless in this scan
Click to expand...
Iirc this is referring to the stairs. Which are explicitly just not “truly” infinite and that it only appeared so because the puppets were re-organizing it constantly.

PlungingThroughTime said:
This realm is noted to be boundless and infinite in this scan
Click to expand...
This is likely where most of the contention is gonna come from, but honestly speaking, “infinity” and “boundless” here can still be predicates of the stairs/corridor (making it not truly infinite). The language used here doesn’t actually exclude that. At all.

The implied semantics would be that since the corridor is re-organized constantly, it leads to infinity, and thus the space the corridor inhibits becomes virtually infinite (i.e “boundless”).

And cuz of this, I don’t think I’m up to agreeing with Low 1-C as of now.
 
SuperNova55555 said:
In regards to this, I do have a few words to say.

To begin with, I should start by presenting the actual size of the Seed of Sumeru (a bubble world):
IMG-9756.jpg

^ Which is slightly bigger than a small island with a tree.

Yet, from within the world, we can see this:
IMG-9757.jpg

Which is an entire sky. Meaning there’s a sort of complete disjunction between how the actual bubble world is, and how one perceives it from within.

And even if you claim that it only contains clouds, that would still require a massive size difference.

And to top it off, when Kevin destroys the world, this is how it appears:

IMG-9758.jpg

The crack of the world itself actually happens below the sky, which would be consistent with the actual size of the bubble world.
Click to expand...
This CRT doesn't discuss the size of the seed of sumeru and it's blatantly a constructed bubble world via the 2nd divine key, it doesn't really matter here when every other bubble world is larger than this one.

SuperNova55555 said:
Now unto ToD:

Iirc this is referring to the stairs. Which are explicitly just not “truly” infinite and that it only appeared so because the puppets were re-organizing it constantly.

This is likely where most of the contention is gonna come from, but honestly speaking, “infinity” and “boundless” here can still be predicates of the stairs/corridor (making it not truly infinite). The language used here doesn’t actually exclude that. At all.
Click to expand...
It doesn't include the stairs/corridor because it's specifically mentioned that the puppets are the ones that make the stairs. Not the Herrscher of Dominance. The stairs say nothing about the Herrscher of Dominance's full power. Hell, the stairs themselves are a created space by the puppets that Hua and Bronya quickly escape.

Why would it just refer to the stairs? This is from the chapter 25 dialogue archive. It specifies the puppets made the space, while the stairs are inside the theatre.

Using that scan above, we know the puppets created the infinite stairs in the Theatre.

The scan around the puppet's head rolling into the bottomless abyss is from Chapter 23 and Seele blatantly isn't in the infinite stairs, so your recollection is wrong. Here. (Seele never enters the Theatre in Chapter 25, where the stairs are created and then bypassed) So the void of the theatre below is blatantly called bottomless (one infinite statement), and the things outside the Theatre (the structure) are called 'infinity within a boundless space.' (two infinite statements) - The theatre is blatantly infinite, it even specifies outside so it can't include the staircase.
 
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PlungingThroughTime said:
It doesn't include the stairs/corridor because it's specifically mentioned that the puppets are the ones that make the stairs. Not the Herrscher of Dominance. The stairs say nothing about the Herrscher of Dominance's full power. Hell, the stairs themselves are a created space by the puppets that Hua and Bronya quickly escape.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure what HoD’s full power has anything to do with this.

PlungingThroughTime said:
Why would it just refer to the stairs? This is from the chapter 25 dialogue archive. It specifies the puppets made the space, while the stairs are inside the theatre.

Using that scan above, we know the puppets created the infinite stairs in the Theatre.
Click to expand...
This happens beforeeeee the statement I posted. The scan I posted is literally Bronya later on going back on the words she said in the very scan you linked and realizing the trick the puppets were doing, and that they didn’t actually create infinite stairs.

PlungingThroughTime said:
The scan around the puppet's head rolling into the bottomless abyss is from Chapter 32 and Seele blatantly isn't in the infinite stairs, so your recollection is wrong. Here. (Seele never enters the Theatre in Chapter 35, where the stairs are created and then bypassed) So the void of the theatre below is blatantly called bottomless (one infinite statement), and the things outside the Theatre (the structure) are called 'infinity within a boundless space.' (two infinite statements) - The theatre is blatantly infinite, it even specifies outside so it can't include the staircase.
Click to expand...
Since I haven’t gotten to this part in the story, I’ll just take your words on it. But your previous paragraph is kinda larp
 
SuperNova55555 said:
I’m not sure what HoD’s full power has anything to do with this.

This happens beforeeeee the statement I posted. The scan I posted is literally Bronya later on going back on the words she said in the very scan you linked and realizing the trick the puppets were doing, and that they didn’t actually create infinite stairs.
Click to expand...
Okay, even if the stairs aren't actually infinite, which they aren't obviously, that's not what I'm arguing. I'm saying the puppets doing this doesn't reflect on the Herrscher of Domination, because the puppets are massively weaker than the Herrscher of Domination.
They have to make an illusion of an infinite space and are greatly exerted by doing this. Note how Bronya never says the puppets aren't taxed. Husks even fight instead of puppets themselves (BTW she wouldn't know about the 'Owner of the Theatre' at this point considering it hadn't shown itself yet).

The whole point is that the stairs are inside the theatre regardless, and they're created in chapter 25. The bottomless statement is chapter 23, so one infinite statement stands. The guidebook statement specifies the Void Corridor leads to infinity within a boundless space, and is outside the structure of the 'theatre' itself.

The infinite stairs are never once called the Void Corridor btw, and the images are completely different than the looping staircase the puppets create. So the 2nd infinite theatre statement stands too.
SuperNova55555 said:
Since I haven’t gotten to this part in the story, I’ll just take your words on it. But your previous paragraph is kinda larp
Click to expand...
MB, I mistyped and put '32' and '35' instead of '23' and '25' so I edited the original message. My apologise about the infinite part too, they're functionally infinite via looping, just not actually infinite. My brain is cutting out a bit of nuance since I'm tired, but this message should be enough to rectify any misunderstandings.
I'm on my 14th hour awake, forgive me lol.
 
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PlungingThroughTime said:
The bottomless statement is chapter 22
Click to expand...
Huh…? Isn’t this in Sentience arc…? I don’t recall we having any statement of ToD during it.

PlungingThroughTime said:
The infinite stairs are never once called the Void Corridor btw, and the images are completely different than the looping staircase the puppets create. So the 2nd infinite theatre statement stands too.
Click to expand...
Can I have the chapter where we explore this “Void Corridor” bro…

In any case, there does seem to be like 3 whole different sections. But the space itself might be infinite… hmm.
 
SuperNova55555 said:
Can I have the chapter where we explore this “Void Corridor” bro…

In any case, there does seem to be like 3 whole different sections. But the space itself might be infinite… hmm.
Click to expand...
It's the space outside of the looping staircase, where Hua and Bronya find Kiana.

Also it's present in Kiana's dreamspace in Chapter 25 Act 1, Bronya also explores this space again here in Chapter 27.

So the Void Corridor, via the art they present in the guidebook tracks into the game and is explicitly a place within the Theatre that's explored by several characters and isn't the pseudo-infinite looping stairs. It's just actually flat out infinite.
 
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Point A and B is fine. I'm neutral about point C cause wasn't there a point about compactified dimensions or smthn? I don't really handle cosmology, moreso scaling.

If someone can clarify, than point C should be fine.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
Point A and B is fine. I'm neutral about point C cause wasn't there a point about compactified dimensions or smthn? I don't really handle cosmology, moreso scaling.

If someone can clarify, than point C should be fine.
Click to expand...
Compactified dimensions applies to real space (the normal universe like where Earth is and where HSR leaves are) and bubble worlds

But the Theater of domination isn’t A bubble world. It’s why the whole SoQ, The Imaginary Membeane and Ryusuke’s False R>F aren’t assumed to be compact ig
More detail on it is here
 
Thanks to the like on Jack's message I think I should mark Emirp down as agree as the point was clarified and he clearly liked the post. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, and you don't actually agree Emirp.
 
Didn't the Theatre still exist within the Bubble World?
 
Mbpoops said:
It exists in an extradimensional imaginary space not a bubble world bubbles are only in the soq unless theres special cases like the seed of sumeru dudu’s bubble and the sugars
Click to expand...
Scan?
 
Mbpoops said:
imgchest.com

Image Chest

Post with 1 views.
imgchest.com imgchest.com

Hered the scan for it being higher dimensional than the base reality give me a bit to find the imaginary space scan if its not in the op already
Click to expand...
If the number of dimensions
Click to expand...
I saw a big "If" there, and nothing said the Theatre is in some special place that not the bubble world
 
It's even clear the Theatre is a unique dimension.

https://honkai-impact-3rd-archives.fandom.com/wiki/Immortal_Blades/Dialogue

b6220764f589.png


Is this clear enough for the Theatre to reside in a higher dimension of the Herrscher of Domination's making? It's clear that the Theatre can't reside in the SoQ for reasons above, so there's legitimately no other place it could reside.
You used the SoQ as an example, so I debunked that. It's the only other place the Theatre could reside in but it's explicitly shut down by the game, so being told 'I didn't answer the question' is rather annoying.

Even this scan says that the Herrscher makes its own unique dimension, we know from the rest it's higher dimensional.
 
PlungingThroughTime said:
Point C: (Establishing the Theatre of Domination as a higher-dimensional, infinite realm, causing its creation and destruction to be L1C)
In Chapter 27 Bronya managed to destroy the Theatre of Domination, the entire realm was destroyed, as shown by Rita and Bronya being sent directly to the Sea of Quanta.
This realm is noted to be boundless and infinite in this scan, bottomless in this scan, and also to have more dimensions than base reality. (4D)
More evidence for the higher dimensional theatre: Otto rendered a singular Herrscher core of Domination ‘only effective in extra dimensions’.
Click to expand...
I would recommend rereading this part of the op because the scans are all there

Nagamitsu proposed the idea that because the theatre’s dimensions are much higher than the reality then the singularity would be harder to find and this is then confirmed by einstein and tesla’s conversation that it is only effective in extradimensional space
 
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Even more supporting evidence for why the Herrscher of Dominance would be able to create a 5-D realm (Herrschers possess the capability to control higher-dimensional space) and the Herrscher of Dominance is capable of using its ability across dimensions:

https://honkai-impact-3rd-archives.fandom.com/wiki/The_Birth_of_Tragedy/Dialogue
Tesla: No wonder we couldn’t find the Herrscher Core before… it’s now entangling innocent people from another dimension!

Tesla: Can our active Schicksal S-rank Valkyrie take a look at this? It was because of your unique perspective that we were able to find this clue so quickly?

Durandal: …Yeah. This really does seem similar to the “puppet strings” explained in the report. Doctor, if we follow this trail, can’t we…

Tesla: Ah, it’s not that simple. It’s possible that our target is not based in the same dimension.
Click to expand...
“The ability Herrschers possess to control higher-dimensional space could be channeled to induce a fracture in the dimension of time”.
Click to expand...

Here's the scan explaining the 'if' away btw.
 
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Vietthai96 said:
I saw a big "If" there
Click to expand...
To add my opinion viet
The “if” (putting on my Megumi cap)
Linguistically, is Nagamitsu using already existing information she knows to form another hypothesis

It’s like saying
“If the supermarket sells ice cream, then logically it should also have long life milk”

The first part of the statement isn’t meant to be debatable or questionable. Otherwise then she’d be making a hypothesis from nothing. Which isn’t how hypotheses work, since many good ones are based on existing rigid knowledge.
 
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