Tier 0 Swirl of the Root Retake

So, this happened. It was an utter mess. We decided to wipe the slate clean.

The topic is obvious: Is the Swirl of the Root a Tier 0? The following is a list of points for and against the proposal.

Points For​

The Root Is Apophatic​

Probably by far the most self-explanatory pieces of information here:

If you really wished to pronounce this term, call it “Kara.” Its meaning varied depending on each individual’s understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin. However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer “ ”. To properly express this term was a source of headache during the production of the drama CDs.

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Source: Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: 「　」

Beyond and below lay only darkness. This void, lifeless place could only mean one thing: I was dead. Without anything to even clothe me, I, Shiki Ryougi, floated, and then sank slowly into the fathomless, lightless sea.

There was no end in sight. There was nothing in sight, neither light, and yes, perhaps even darkness. This place was only a hollow, where all meaning ceased to be. A stygian abyss that could not be put into words, and without words it shall remain: a cypher called, simply, “ ”. I fell deeper into the “ ”, and my naked body slowly acquired the pallor of the grave, and it made me want to look away. In my mind, I knew that everything in this place comes to be the same way. “Is this death?” I whispered, though it came out so faint, I doubted if it was even real.

Though time too had no meaning inside “ ”, I observed it. Like a stream tracing out into the infinite, like the process of decay, I mark it. It was an eternity. I plunged ever deeper, and cast my eyes farther, and in that eternity, this place was still empty, devoid of anything except me.

And yet, it was all so calm and serene. It feels as if, in this place without meaning, the fact that I existed at all fits me. Here lay entropy, the end of all things, a place the living may never observe, but only the dead may enter. I died. And yet I am still alive. I felt my mind about to lose its grip. Two years. An instant, stretched out to an eternity. Both are accurate measures of my time spent in this “ ”. Here, I touched death. Here, I fought for my life. Here, I awakened.

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Source: Kara no Kyoukai, Chapter 4


Source: Lord El-Melloi II Case Files, Chapter 18

The above aligns with the following, from the Omnipotence page:

Furthermore, a valid question that some may have is with regards to the status of apophatic theology in relation to the above. Broadly speaking, apophaticism is closely related to the mechanics of Tier 0, insofar as existing beyond all divisions and separations entails an inability to be circumscribed by any singular concept. And historically, the two concepts have also walked hand-in-hand in one way or another. However, in order to qualify for 0 through apophatics, these guidelines must be followed alongside the other conditions for the tier:

1. The incomprehensibility of the character must not come from a contingent limitation of a lower being's intellect, which could conceivably be overcome through some manner of evolution (e.g. The way a 4-dimensional hypercube is incomprehensible to our 3-dimensional brains), but from the fundamental nature of the character.

2. The incomprehensibility in question, obviously, must be correlated to the "power" or "magnitude" of the character. It is perfectly possible for an object to be without any properties (For a strict definition of "property") and yet not be superior to these properties at all. As such, something being stated to be "unknowable," "undefinable," and similar is not grounds for Tier 0 on its own.

3. The incomprehensibility in question must be due to the character fundamentally surpassing the very qualities that would serve as the object of intellection to begin with. Therefore, the statements must not be hyperbolic statements that only serve to underscore how mighty the character is, but must be serious statements on their ontology. Refer back to the quote provided above.

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The Root Is Nondual​

English: As stated by law, emptiness is a territory of freedom.
Free from binary opposition, it is the heart that contemplates the world both as it should be and as it is.

The sky is distant, the colors pale.
A noble figure stands on an uncertain boundary, gazing at the whereabouts of the stars.

Japanese: 法に曰く、真空とは自在の境地。
二元対立の分別はなく、世の理、世の在り方をありのままに観ずる心。

空は遠く、色彩は淡く。
貴影は何処ともつかぬ境界に立ち、
星の行方を眺めている。

その恋は一時の夢。
その夢は永遠の名残。
有り得る筈のない、けれど束の間に灯った出会いを、
私は今も眺めている。

雪の夜、遙かな虚空を見るように。

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Source: Fate/Grand Order

English: All creation is an illusion. All things are nothingness. Even if this transient world is destroyed, as long as the virtual world remains there will be hope.

Japanese: 万物は幻。 一切は空。現世の世界が滅びようと、電子の世界があれば希望はあります。

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Source: Fate/Extra CCC

To examine both quotes, beginning with the second: 万物は幻。一切は空。現世の世界が滅びようと、電子の世界があれば希望はあります。"切は空". "All is emptiness." Emptiness being "空", the Buddhist term "Sunyata."

And the first: 法に曰く、真空とは自在の境地。"真空" being "True Emptiness," or "Absolute Emptiness." Same term as above.

The first quote also includes this bit: "世の在り方をありのままに観ずる心", and breaking it down:

心 = (A) mind.

観る = To look, to observe, to watch, etc.

ありのままに = "As it really is."

世 = World

Hence, the localization given: "A mind (心) that contemplates (観る) the world both as it should be (在り方) and as it is (ありのままに)." In turn, "free from binary opposition" is a rendering of "二元対立の分別はなく", broken down as follows:

なく= None, without, etc.

分別 = Judgement, consideration, discernment, etc.

対立 = Opposition.

二元 = Binary, duality.

So, a more exact translation would be "No sense/discernment of binary opposition," which makes clear that the sentence is referring to a mental operation of sorts, in keeping with the rest of it, which talks about a "mind" that contemplates something.

To summarize it all: Everything is illusory. The world, in truth, is emptiness (空). And to attain Nirvana is for the mind to contemplate this emptiness. It sees the world as it really is, which is a state with no binary opposition whatsoever.

And, for the matter, this does refer to the Root, judging by this description:

English: Amala-Vijnana・Kara no Kyoukai**
Rank:
Type: Anti-Unit
Range: 1~999
Maximum Targets: 64*** people
An all-party attack that applies the theory of the mystic eyes of direct death, severing the targets' "lines of death".
The sword stroke of the afterlife released from nirvana bestows peace to all existences.

Japanese: 『無垢識・空の境界』
ランク：　種別：対人宝具
レンジ：１～９９９　最大補足：６４人
むくしき・からのきょうかい。
直死の魔眼の理論を応用し、対象の“死の線”を切断する全体攻撃。
彼岸より放たれる幽世の一太刀は、あらゆる生命に安寧を与える。

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Source: Fate/Grand Order (Translated Here)

"The Mystic Eyes" in question are a power that's sourced directly from the Root, and this particular description describes their application as 彼岸より放たれる, literally "Released from the other side." Here, the relevant term is "彼岸", which can be translated both as "Nirvana" and as "Other side." A play on words, effectively, which equates the Root to Nirvana itself. Moreover, as Shiki uses this attack, she says:

English: "Dawn is approaching."
"All is a dream... this is the flower of the end.

Japanese: "空が明けるわ。"
"すべては夢と……これが、名残の花よ。

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Source: Fate/Grand Order

The word that was translated as "Dawn" in this voice line is "空", once again the Buddhist term for Emptiness, and so the sentence might be more accurately translated as "Emptiness is approaching." Further, she also says:

English: "The end of a dream, huh?"
"Direct Death... Vanish in the interval between Yin and Yang.

Japanese: "夢の終わりね。"
"直死……両儀の狭間に消えなさい。

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Source: Fate/Grand Order

Vanishing in "the interval between Yin and Yang" is a reference to the concept of the Taiji, which is explained elsewhere as:

A philosophy originated in ancient China, a graphical representation of the Yin-Yang theory.

It attempts to capture the essence of everything on a conceptual level: those that are active are defined as Yang (white), and the opposite are defined as Yin (black).
The Taiji symbolizes opposing concepts such as day and night, light and darkness, male and female. At the same time, you may also call it a condensed version of the ever-changing, dynamic World.

Furthermore, there is a dot of Yin in Yang, and conversely a dot of Yang in Yin. This indicates that the distinction between Yin and Yang is not absolute. There is darkness even in light.
Taiji is the “one” at the beginning, the Yin and Yang that divide the “one” are called Liangyi

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Source: Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Taiji

Add that to the fact Shiki mentions "All is a dream" and "The end of a dream" when using the attack, it's easy to understand what it is referring to: The Root is being identified as both the nondual Emptiness (Nirvana) and as the Taiji, which is the "one" before duality (Shiki's name itself is a play on 両儀, the term for the duality that emerges out of the Taiji).

The aforementioned fact of Nirvana/Emptiness being a state in which the mind no linger discerns or considers any duality whatsoever also ties in with the Root being described as pure intellectual nullity (Source: Kara no Kyoukai, Vol. 3), a total absence of cognition. Thus to "contemplate the Root" (The world as is) is really to eliminate all thought from your mind, and the "True Emptiness" (真空) that's left when this is accomplished, is itself the Root. In fact, the statement above also indicates that the "mind" that contemplates the emptiness is itself the emptiness.

This is in keeping with the apophatic statements done about the its nature, since if contemplating Nirvana/Emptiness/The Root ("The world as it really is") requires one to eliminate all thought and intellection, then there is a correspondence between thought and Maya (The illusion. The world as it appears to be). This, again, fits pretty comfortably into Tier 0, and to know why just requires a cursory knowledge of what the tier is supposed to be. Really, the entire Omnipotence page should inform you on this.

The Root Is Pure Existence​

English: All things have a foundational cause: An absolute first.
The point where the universe began. Yet also the point where it will end.
At this point, there is an 'archive of all things'. Though it is less of an 'archive' and more of just an 'existence'; not really information, it is 'existence', nothing more.

Japanese: すべての事象には大本になった原因、絶対の一がある。この宇宙のはじまりにしておしまいの地点。

そこには “全てを記録したモノ” がある。記録というよりは “有る” ものだから、情報とは呼べない。ただ “有る” だけ。それ自体に意思はないし、方向性もありえない。原因を垂れ流しているだけの、根源の渦みたいなものね

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Source: Tsukihime Remake, Arcueid Route. (1:32:20 and onwards)

This one, again, is basically self-explanatory. You can look at the Omnipotence, or even at some of my previous statements on the matter: A Tier 0 is, indeed, very properly described as "pure existence", "being itself", and so on and so forth. But most of all, this adds to the cumulative case; The world is an illusion, and the Swirl of the Root is its "true state," which is total emptiness and absence of thought. A mind in this state is in intellectual nullity and no longer perceives any duality, not even information, but "existence, nothing more."

Further:

English: Everything that exists in this world flowed from that Maelstrom, and all things derive their current form from it. You and me, bloodsuckers and humans... All nothing more than atoms that originated there.

By now we are all too far removed—too hopelessly complex, to return to that initial cause... Anyway, you should at least be able to understand that such a 'first' exists, right?

Japanese: この宇宙にあるものは、 その渦から流れ、 派生して、今のカタチに行き着いたわ。わたしも志貴も、吸血種も人間も、もとはそこから始まった原子にすぎない。

••••••もう離れすぎ、複雑になりすぎてしまって、原因である始まりに戻ることはできないけど、とにかくそういった “一” があるのは分かるでしょう?

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The focus here being the statement that all things are "too hopelessly complex (複雑)" to return to the Root. This indicates that the Root is not more complex than its products, it is less. Elsewhere, this same verbiage is repeated:

Humans are already connected to the source from the moment they are born. Primates have become more complex, more diverse, and have strayed too far from the source, the origin, but there are rare cases of people who are born directly from the source. Colorless souls are born connected to the " ". These are the only beings that can reach the source. So all we have to do is seek it out — and to find it

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Source: Kara no Kyoukai: Paradox Spiral

Notice the specific phrasing used: "More complex, more diverse" (複雑化し、種類を増やし), which again suggests that the Root is less diverse than the world. This is in keeping with the statements regarding it having no binary opposition, or anything graspable by thought (As thought is in the realm of illusion, as mentioned previously).

Elsewhere, we are explicitly informed of what exactly "returning to the Root" means:

English: "What did you mean about how there haven't been any survivors?"
"I meant that no one's ever come in contact with the Root and made it back to talk about it. Not a single person in the entire world..."
"Coming in contact with it means instant death. The soul of a mere human simply 'returns to the source', so to speak. In other words, it gets sucked into the Root."

Japanese: 「蒼崎。一人も生還者がいないって、どういう事だ？」

「根源に触れて、帰ってきた者は一人もいないの。世界規模でね。触れれば即消滅。人間程度の魂だと触れた瞬間に元・に・戻・る・とか、根源に取りこまれるとか」

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Source: Witch on the Holy Night (Script)

Source: Kara no Kyoukai: Paradox Spiral (RAW)

A relevant term in the first scans being "消滅", which means annihilation, extinction, termination, etc. Thus, a "return to the Root" (Enlightenment) is simply the annihilation of the individual self.

The Root Is Beyond Infinity​

English: Infinity is not “ ”. In order to render infinity, one must define limits. Without limits, infinity does not exist. Infinity can be observed because objects possess limits. Ryougi Shiki was immersed in infinity, but found the non-existent limit and severed it.

Of course, limits do not exist within infinity, thus one cannot sever something that does not exist. As a result, escaping from this prison is impossible.

However, without limits, infinity does not exist. Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki.

If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Ryougi would find it and cut away everything.

…. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself.

Japanese: 閉ざされた空間、マンションの壁と壁の間にもうけた異界の中で目を覚ました彼女は、その腕でありえない空間 の、ありえない壁を斬ったのだ。

無限は、「　」ではない。無限を無限たらしめるには有限を定めなくてはいけないのだ。有限がなければ無限 など存在しない。物事には果てがあるから、無限という事柄が観測される。両儀式は放りこまれた無限の中で、 ありえない有限を視つけだして断ち切った。

だが無論、無限の中には有限などない。存在しないものは斬れないが故に、あの檻は脱出が不可能なのである 。 しかし――有限がなければ、無限はないのだ。有限の壁が無かったにせよ有ったにせよ、両儀式の前にはそん な果てのない世界など意味をなさない。

有限が本当になければ、それは無限などではなく「　」であり。有限を内包しているのなら、式はそれを視つ けだして断ち切ってしまう。

……絶対の筈の黒い穴は、この相手にだけはただの狭い暗室にすぎなかったのだと、魔術師は

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Source: Kara no Kyoukai Vol. 2

To sum it up: The Root is not infinite, because infinity is contrasted with limits and finitude. The Root, however, is not contrasted with anything, and therefore is properly speaking beyond even infinity. This coheres with this part of the Omnipotence page:

Thus, a Tier 0 not only utterly transcends 1-A, but also transcends even the distinction between 1-A and below-1-A, and furthermore also the distinction between 1-A and High 1-A, and between any conceivable levels of the latter tier as well. Moreover, whereas all such tiers have "inverse" versions of themselves (For instance, a 1-A finds its inverse in a 11-C character who is qualitatively ''inferior'' to conventional reality), Tier 0 can have no such counterpart, as it is too all-encompassing to have any sort of opposite lying outside of itself.

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Furthermore, notice this bit of the statement: "If limits exist, then Ryougi would find it and cut away everything." So: As long as it has limits, the Mystic Eyes can kill it. This is not even limited to things that are alive or dead. If it moves, and can be destroyed, it can be ended. This is explained to be because:


Source: Kara no Kyoukai, Movie 4: The Hollow Shrine


Source: Lord El-Melloi II's Case Files, Volume 5, Chapter 2, Part 4 (RAW)

So: Everything is imperfect. Nothing is absolutely perfect. Therefore, everything will die someday; it is held together by "seams." The Mystic Eyes work by cutting the seams of a given thing and thus actualizing its inevitable end. And as seen before, the Swirl of the Root is that very end, "death," the nothingness to which they return. So, obviously, it is excluded from that list of things. It is absolutely perfect. It will never have an end. The language of "seams" itself is interesting in that context, since if the Swirl of the Root has no seams whatsoever, then that means it is held together by nothing. It is self-sufficient.

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Bear in mind, the following statement is not an evaluation (As I haven't gone over the counterpoints, yet) so much as a simple statement of fact: As far as positive evidence goes, all of the above scans make the Swirl of the Root into an exemplary Tier 0. It, quite literally, checks all the boxes. Not debatable in the slightest.

The only way around the above, thus, is to argue that the information is contradicted. Arguing that the information is simply insufficient is not an option, because it is indeed more than sufficient.

Now, as for the other side...

Points Against​

The Hole To The Root​

So:

In short, the Holy Grail War is not a battle to obtain the Holy Grail, but a ritual to escape to the outside world. Attempts to reach the outside world. According to hermeticism, there's a power that governs dimensional theory outside of this world. It's called the 'swirl of the origin', and it's a coordinate that's considered to be the beginning of all things. It's the start and the end of all creation. It's the seat of God, recording everything and able to create anything

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"Ah, yes. I must tell you what that shadow is before anything else. In short, that is the content of the Holy Grail. People say the Holy Grail is an omnipotent pot, but the Holy Grail we aim for is not a pot. The Holy Grail is only a means. Einzbern, Makiri, and Tohsaka. What the three families aim for is to open a gate using the complete Holy Grail.
You can think of the complete Holy Grail as a gate to connect this world to a world where every wish comes true."
"...Hold on. Then the Holy Grail is..."
"Yes. The goal of every magus is to reach the origin. But I am not interested in such a thing. The Einzberns only thought for the completion of the Holy Grail. Tohsaka is the only family of magi that is still aiming for the origin."

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Source: Fate / Stay Night

Basically, mages want to reach the Swirl of the Root. In particular, the two quotes above describe a process in which the Holy Grail creates a "gate" to the Root. The idea is that, when this hole is opened, you can reach the Root (The "other side") and tap into unlimited quantities of unused mana contained in there.

"The Holy Grail collects the souls of the defeated heroic spirits and acts as the reactor core to activate the Great Holy Grail."

"And once the Holy Grail collects enough souls to activate the Great Holy Grail, it uses the heroic spirits' souls to open a hole. The Great Holy Grail fixes the small hole created when the heroic spirits return to their original place after their roles are fulfilled. This opens up the passage to the origin that humans cannot reach." "Of course, this is just the first step. Your wish isn't granted even if the hole is opened. The path to the origin is too far."

"But―――the one who obtains the Holy Grail gains access to unlimited magical energy. The other side has large quantities of unused mana unlike anything seen on this side. For an ordinary magus, it's nothing short of a miracle."

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Source: Fate / Stay Night

At face value, this contradicts the immutability that is required of a Tier 0, insofar as it seems to be describing a process where a gate to the Root is opened so that you can obtain something lying around in there. The very idea of creating a "gate" or a "hole" to a so-called Tier 0, of course, is also pretty suspicious. A Tier 0 is not an object in a set of objects, so accessing it through a portal in the same way you go to another universe is incoherent.

Elsewhere, this same process is described in similar terms. Moreover, True Magic is distinguished from magecraft as coming directly from the Root (Pay attention to the "Sun" comparisons):

Magic, True Magic, isn't just some manuscript derived from the Swirl of the Root like magecraft is, but something that comes directly from the Root itself."

"As for the Swirl of the Root, well... The simplest way I can describe it so you'll understand is to compare it to the sun. The Sun is really far away, and has been there from the beginning as far as we're concerned. Without it, you and I wouldn't be able to live."

"Magecraft merely lets us take advantage of the Sun's benefits, so to speak. Magecraft is all about imitating or paying for natural phenomena. We can use it to study, practice, and recreate Mystics-mysteries-but it can never truly create them. Actually, no matter how much you learn, you eventually hit a wall. It's like a limiter that human knowledge can never overcome."

"And beyond that wall is where Magic, the Sun itself, exists. To attain it means to go where no one can go, and awaken miracles no one could possibly reproduce. A technique to make things happen that humanity could never hope to accomplish with any amount of time or resources... that's True Magic."

"It's about overcoming that dimensional wall-like, running until you reach the end where you'll find a world with completely different rules from ours. That's the only way you can, well, learn it."

"I told you before that magecraft has no limits, right? Well I meant that it has no limits within the scope of human knowledge. Meanwhile, Magic has lots of limits; as in, it can only do one thing, and one thing alone. Makes sense, right? I mean, we're talking about unique, rule-breaking concepts and mechanisms that exist outside the boundaries of the very universe."

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"So... Magic is more amazing than magecraft. I think I get the general idea but... It's really limited?"

"Kinda. It's more like an exception a special privilege or an abuse of power. It's not versatile but in making the impossible possible it's all-powerful as far as magecraft is concerned." "Magic is like a reward a mage gets when reaching the Swirl of the Root and that even goes for mages who don't possess the mettle to wield it. Just making a path to the Root gives them free reign to use it in magecraft terms. In short it's like becoming the richest person in the world."

"The richest person in the world... In which case does it mean that no matter how rich you are only the richest person gets to have Magic?"

"...I guess so sure. ...Sometimes you sure get to the right conclusion from the weirdest of places. It's like you said-there are many routes and theories to reach the Root but unless you're first to the post Magic will elude you. No matter how good you are if you're not the first you're everyone else."

"There are only five... no four Magicians. And there are only four because once that path to the Root has been taken by one Magician it's closed off to all others. But it wasn't always like that in ancient times. Ironically mankind is responsible for closing off the paths to the Root; we've built walls that stand between us and the 'truth.'"

"The mages of old could never have imagined that the more we explored the unknown the more paths we would seal off. But the result was exactly that and by the time they realized it it was too late. After all that studying True Magic had all but disappeared from the world."

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Source: Witch of the Holy Night (Script)

And later on, obtaining True Magic is described as "To see, touch and understand" the Root:

English: "The place where all knowledge is recorded, where all matters are settled. To see, touch, and understand it makes even the impossible possible. It has gone by many names over the years, but you could say it's where God lives."

Japanese: 根源の渦っていうのは、全ての叡知えいちが記録された位置、全ての事柄が決定された場所。そこを見て、触れて、理解できれば不可能なんて言葉すら作り替えられる。伝承によって呼び名は様々だけど、ようするに神さまのいる位置なんでしょうね

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Source: Witch of the Holy Night (Script)

Overall, this is the strongest piece of counterevidence presented to the proposal.

The People In The Root​

What do you know, this objection comes from the exact same quote as one of the pieces of evidence for Tier 0! Namely:

Beyond and below lay only darkness. This void, lifeless place could only mean one thing: I was dead. Without anything to even clothe me, I, Shiki Ryougi, floated, and then sank slowly into the fathomless, lightless sea. There was no end in sight. There was nothing in sight, neither light, and yes, perhaps even darkness. This place was only a hollow, where all meaning ceased to be. A stygian abyss that could not be put into words, and without words it shall remain: a cypher called, simply, “ ”. I fell deeper into the “ ”, and my naked body slowly acquired the pallor of the grave, and it made me want to look away. In my mind, I knew that everything in this place comes to be the same way. “Is this death?” I whispered, though it came out so faint, I doubted if it was even real. Though time too had no meaning inside “ ”, I observed it. Like a stream tracing out into the infinite, like the process of decay, I mark it. It was an eternity. I plunged ever deeper, and cast my eyes farther, and in that eternity, this place was still empty, devoid of anything except me. And yet, it was all so calm and serene. It feels as if, in this place without meaning, the fact that I existed at all fits me. Here lay entropy, the end of all things, a place the living may never observe, but only the dead may enter. I died. And yet I am still alive. I felt my mind about to lose its grip. Two years. An instant, stretched out to an eternity. Both are accurate measures of my time spent in this “ ”. Here, I touched death. Here, I fought for my life. Here, I awakened.

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Source: Kara no Kyoukai, Chapter 4

—My origin is nihil. From nihil I originated, the flesh that I am, the corpse in the womb to which life was somehow given. That is why Shiki can perceive death. For two years, in her comatose state, she was unable to view the outside world, and could do nothing but gaze into the nihil that Ryougi Shiki "is." More than simply seeing, she felt death.

—All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of " ".

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Source: Kara no Kyoukai Vol. 3

So, basically, Ryougi Shiki actually floated in the Root for a while. The argument, thus, being that this contradicts the idea that the Root is totally undifferentiated, since Shiki was in it while maintaining the distinction between herself and the Root.

Elsewhere (Fate/Grand Order, specifically), the same seems to occur:

BB and The Root​

So:

English: The mother of the earth goddesses who created the Earth. In other words, the "root" of all things.

An Anti-World Noble Fantasm that outputs information like an ultra-precise 3-D printer that crushes the previous world with the world desired by the user.

Japanese: 大地を創造した地母神たちの母にあたる女神とは、即ち、万物を生み出した 「根源」 である。

この宝具はその情報を超精密立体プリンターとして出力し、使用者の望むままの世界で、いまある世界を握りつぶす対界宝具である。

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Source: Fate Extra/CCC


Source: Fate Extra/CCC

The argument here is that the "mother of the earth goddesses" up there is the Swirl of the Root. This chick was able to obtain the power of that Goddess, stored away in a giant supercomputer, and through it successfully "digitize" the "nothingness before life," again argued to be the Root itself. To quote the maker of that argument:

Deagonx said:

I think it presents a few problems. The first is that a supercomputer shouldn't be able to analyze, digitize, and then emulate an ineffable monad or replicate it's powers. Moreover, the Root is identified as being a specific Goddess whose power was passed down to some of the most powerful beings in the verse, and these powers of the Root -- too -- can be digitized and recreated.

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The association with the Root itself comes from two points: Firstly, the emphasis on the term "根源" (Root) in the above description. Secondly, the similarities in the following two descriptions:

"An Anti-World Noble Phantasm that outputs information like an ultra-precise 3D printer that crushes the present world with the world desired by the users."

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"So I can do anything. ... It's easy to rearrange the order of the world as it is now. Not to remake this world, but to crush the old world with a new world."

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ORT and The Throne of Heroes​

Source: Fate/Grand Order

So, ORT can damage and interfere with the Heroic Spirits recorded in the Throne of Heroes. Of the Throne of Heroes, the following is stated:

Source: Fate/Grand Order

The argument, thus, being:

1) ORT can meddle with the Throne of Heroes.

2) The Throne of Heroes is in the Root

∴ ORT can reach into the Root and affect it.

Microcosm Root​

English: "Yes, that is the ability of Shiki. The same as Asagami Fujino, a special channel that allows you to see things differently from ordinary people. A special eye that can catch a glimpse of the microcosm of the world, called the 'primordial vortex.'

Japanese:「そう、それが式の能力よ。浅上藤乃と同じ、人とは違ったモノが見れる特殊なチャンネル。根源の渦という世界の縮図を垣間見られる特別な眼。

　けど、わたしはもっと深いところまで潜っていける。いえ――わたし自身が、その渦なのかもし れないわ」

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Source: Kara no Kyoukai Epilogue

The Swirl of the Root is referred to as 世界の縮図, literally "A microcosm of the world." The argument, thus, being that the Root is a small part of a larger, unknown structure ("The world")

The Root and Dimensional Theory​

English: In short, the Holy Grail War is not a battle to obtain the Holy Grail, but a ritual to escape to the outside world. Attempts to reach the outside world. According to hermeticism, there's a power that governs dimensional theory outside of this world. It's called the 'swirl of the origin', and it's a coordinate that's considered to be the beginning of all things. It's the start and the end of all creation. It's the seat of God, recording everything and able to create anything.

Japanese: 神秘学の語るところによれば、この世界の外側には次元論の頂点に在る“力”があるという。 あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標。それが、すべての魔術師の悲願たる『根源の渦』……万物の始まりにして終焉しゅうえん、この世の全てを記録し、この世の全てを創造できるという神の座である。

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Source: Fate/Stay Night

The focus here being twofold. Firstly, there is this sentence: "次元論の頂点"

"次元論" = Dimensional theory. Theory of dimensions.

"頂点" = Apex, summit, pinnacle.

Secondly, there's this: あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標. "座標" meaning "Coordinate," referring to the Root.

So, the objection raised is that the Root is not above space and time, simply at the apex of it.

The Akashic Records Change?​

English: To answer the question of ‘if he doesn’t travel with his physical body, how could he be a Dead Apostle?’—as someone who has inherited the Hemonomic Principle of one of the 27 Ancestors, he has been corrupted on the soul-level, so it's impossible for him not to be.

Vampirification is not the transformation of the body, but of existence. It’s like if the entry in the Akashic Records that read ‘human’ changed class to ‘Dead Apostle’—to become a vampire in one’s very being.

Japanese: 生身じゃないなら死徒じゃないんじゃないの？という質問には、二十七祖の原理血戒を受け継いでしまったため魂レベルで汚染されているので無理、と返すように。
吸血鬼化なんてものは肉体の変容ではなく存在の変容である。アカシックレコードにある“人間”という記述が“死徒”にクラスチェンジしてしまったようなもの。もう生き物として“吸血鬼”なのである。

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Source: TYPE-MOON Manuscript - Zelretch Kishur Schweinorg, p.033-035

As seen above, the Akashic Records are the Root, ergo etc.

The Root and Time Acceleration​

English: Norikata Emiya (Person's name)
Kiritsugu’s father. His family thaumaturgy involved time manipulation inside the body or possibly small cause-and-effect, and he was a genius who in only the fourth generation, a relatively shallow generation, rose to the rank of gaining a Sealing Designation.

Spent more than 20 years hiding from the pursuit of the Magic Association, and finally hid himself on a small southern island. Though Norikata’s wife died at the hands of the Magic Association’s hunters, Kiritsugu, who had just been born at the time, has no memory of the incident.

Accelerating or slowing the flow of time inside a Reality Marble free from the world’s interference is the thaumaturgy of the Emiya family. But after investigating it thoroughly, Norikata found that, in a Bounded Field that was minimized until resistance was almost zero, the flow of time could be accelerated without limit, and reaching the Root would be possible, right before observing the universe’s end.

Although the theory itself was very promising, finishing the experiment would still require several hundreds of years. In order to resolve the issue of life span, he decided to explore the methods of becoming a Dead Apostle.

The tragedy that arose as a result was the story narrated at the beginning of Volume 4 of Zero.

Japanese: 衛宮矩賢【人名】
衛宮切嗣の父。体内、あるいは小因果の時間操作に特化した家伝の魔術を、4代目という比較的浅い世代において封印指定の域にまで昇華させた天才。
20年以上に渉って魔術協会の追跡をかわし続け、最後は南国の小さな島に身を潜めていた。彼の妻もまた魔術協会からの追っ手によって命を落としているのだが、その経緯は、当時生まれて間もない切嗣の記憶にはない。
世界によって干渉されない固有結界の内側において時間の流れを加速あるいは停滞させるのが衛宮家の魔術だが、矩賢はこれを突き詰め、抵抗がほぼゼロに等しくなるは、ど極小まで縮めた結界の中で、時間流を無限に加速させ、宇宙の終烏を観測することでその先にあるはずの『根源』に至ろうと企んでいた。埋論そのものはかなり有望だったのだが、実験を完遂するためには数百年の期間が必要とされ、やむなく彼は寿命の問題を解決するべく死徒化の手段を模索しはじめる。
その結果もたらされた惨劇は、Zero4巻の冒頭に描かれた通り。

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Source: Fate/Zero Material - Encyclopedia: Emiya Norikata, p.093

So, basically: A guy planned to reach the Root by accelerating time infinitely until he reached the end of the universe. The objection being that this should be impossible if the Root is beyond time.

A small detail, also: The English translation seems to say that, through this method, he would reach the Root right before seeing the end of the universe. The Japanese phrasing is a bit different, though: "宇宙の終烏を観測することでその先にあるはずの『根源』に至ろうと企んでいた".

This seems to more literally say that he was planning to reach the Root by observing the end of the universe, because the Root is what lies beyond the universe's death. That "right before observing the universe’s end." seems to be exclusive to the translation, and to reverse the sense of the original text. Overall, though, translator's opinions would be appreciated.

Arcueid and the Root​

Source: Melty Blood, Chapter 26


Source: Melty Blood, Agitator Route (Script)

So, basically: A guy disappeared into the Root. Supposedly, he kept "existing" in some fashion afterwards (As a part of it, the argument goes), and Arcueid can both bring him back from this state and kill him. The objection runs thus: Arcueid can affect the Root and kill something in the same state as it.

Then there's this:

Source: Melty Blood

I've been told that the guy in question was basically planning to use 30% of Arcueid's power to become part of the Root and then rewrite it himself. I don't see the Root being mentioned anywhere in those scans, but I'll leave that to be discussed by the supporters.

---

So, all-in-all: Is the Root Tier 0? For that question, I'll leave a tally below:

Yea:

Nay:

Neutral:

After all this, comes my personal evaluation, but before that, comes a clarification on certain principles. To quote something from the previous thread:

Deagonx said:

I don't really think it does jive better, because neither interpretations actually contradict what we know about the Root.

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As demonstrated above, "what we know about the Root" is that it is described as having every single feature that is expected of a Tier 0. The statements about it might as well come from a philosophy textbook in how direct they are. Given these major pieces of information that, from what I see, Type-Moon constantly reiterates, it is absolutely fair to read other statements in light of them. That's just the principle of charity.

So, subdividing this by topic:

People in the Root​

To quote someone else from the previous thread:

ShadowWhoWalks said:

Shiki Ryogi's soul didn't leave her body and travel to the Root, before returning a couple of years later. Her very Origin is defined by "Emptiness" despite having multiple personalities, due to her Origin, being in a coma and looking inward caused her to gaze into the Root.

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The quote for this being:

—My origin is nihil. From nihil I originated, the flesh that I am, the corpse in the womb to which life was somehow given. That is why Shiki can perceive death. For two years, in her comatose state, she was unable to view the outside world, and could do nothing but gaze into the nihil that Ryougi Shiki "is." More than simply seeing, she felt death.

—All that time she was floating there in that ocean which others call the "swirl of the Root." Shipwrecked all alone in the midst of " ".

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Source: Kara no Kyoukai Vol. 3

With that in mind, let's look at how this experience of the Root is described:

it was dark there, and the bottom was dark. I realized that all that surrounded me was darkness, and I accepted that I had died. Floating in the ocean with no light or sound. Naked and without any decorations, the humanoid figure named Ryougi sinks down.

There was no end. Well, maybe it wasn't falling in the first place. Because there's nothing here. It's not that there's no light, there's not even darkness. I can't see anything because there's nothing. It doesn't even make sense to fall. There is probably no such thing as nothing. Even my body is sinking in a world where even the description is meaningless. When I am naked, the colors are so poisonous that I want to turn away. Everything that “is” here is too poisonous.

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So, I believe everyone can notice a pattern: Shiki gives descriptions of the experience, and then immediately after, she denies all of them. In order:

"It was a dark there, and the bottom was dark" —> "It's not that there's no light, there's not even darkness."

"Floating in the ocean with no light or sound. Naked and without any decorations, the humanoid figure named Ryougi sinks down." —> "There was no end. Well, maybe it wasn't falling in the first place. It doesn't even make sense to fall."

"I can't see anything because there's nothing." —> "There is probably no such thing as nothing."

And then finally, she ends by negating all description of it: "Even my body is sinking in a world where even the description is meaningless."

And again:


Source: Kara no Kyoukai: the Garden of Sinners, Volume 4, Chapter 22. (RAW)

So: Shiki was not physically in the Root. She's just comatose and having a vision of it (Though, to add to that: "More than seeing, she felt it"). And even this "vision" is extremely abstract, since, as you can see, she says quite literally nothing at all about it. All the descriptions she gives are immediately negated and recognized as false and inapplicable. So what we're left with is an individual still in the physical world just "gazing" into the Swirl of the Root and "feeling" it in some cryptic way. That is hardly an anti-feat.

To take a quote from the OP:

Beyond and below lay only darkness. This void, lifeless place could only mean one thing: I was dead. Without anything to even clothe me, I, Shiki Ryougi, floated, and then sank slowly into the fathomless, lightless sea.

There was no end in sight. There was nothing in sight, neither light, and yes, perhaps even darkness. This place was only a hollow, where all meaning ceased to be. A stygian abyss that could not be put into words, and without words it shall remain: a cypher called, simply, “ ”. I fell deeper into the “ ”, and my naked body slowly acquired the pallor of the grave, and it made me want to look away. In my mind, I knew that everything in this place comes to be the same way. “Is this death?” I whispered, though it came out so faint, I doubted if it was even real.

Though time too had no meaning inside “ ”, I observed it. Like a stream tracing out into the infinite, like the process of decay, I mark it. It was an eternity. I plunged ever deeper, and cast my eyes farther, and in that eternity, this place was still empty, devoid of anything except me.

And yet, it was all so calm and serene. It feels as if, in this place without meaning, the fact that I existed at all fits me. Here lay entropy, the end of all things, a place the living may never observe, but only the dead may enter. I died. And yet I am still alive. I felt my mind about to lose its grip. Two years. An instant, stretched out to an eternity. Both are accurate measures of my time spent in this “ ”. Here, I touched death. Here, I fought for my life. Here, I awakened.

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This entire exchange seems to characterize Shiki's situation as some sort of struggle between life and death, with "life" being her existing at all and "death" being the Root. She even says "I felt my mind about to lose its grip," indicating that she's on the brink of annihilating herself into the Root, as we know happens to people who come in contact with it, but still not quite there yet. The fact she is still existent, just comatose, also should probably tell us that she hasn't gone all the way in that process.

KnK itself looks like it informs us as much elsewhere, because, as previously mentioned: the Root is pure intellectual nullity. It's the total absence of thought. Yet Shiki is here, obviously still thinking and reasoning.

Elsewhere, it is also stated that you can get "close" to the Root without actually making contact with it, and this results in some sort of destabilization that happens before you're annihilated by proper contact:

English: "That's why not even the greatest mages in history dared to touch it. Just coming close is enough to send them frantically trying to stabilize their magecraft."

Japanese: 「なんで、どんなに歴史に名を残した魔術師でも、あれにだけは触れていないわ。せいぜい間近にして、大急ぎで自分の魔術を安定させた程度だもの」

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Source: Witch of the Holy Night (Script)

And as we already know: The Root is not some object existing parallel to the world. It is the world. Or, more precisely: It is "the world as is," which you begin contemplating when your mind stops perceiving duality and binary opposition. It's the very emptiness that arrives when you eliminate all thought and intellect from your mind.

Putting this information together, I think what's happening is pretty obvious: Shiki is not actually in the Root as if she was in some other place. She's just in a state where her cognition of everything apart from herself has been eliminated ("For two years, in her comatose state, she was unable to view the outside world"), with the last thing she has to hold on to being her own selfhood, which even then is starting to break down ("I felt my mind about to slip").

And, as for the Fate/Grand Order thing: Seems to be the same thing. The main character is having a dream, and in this dream, he appears in the Root. He is not actually physically there, and obviously hasn't ceased to exist. And to my mind this is made doubly obvious by how, as far as I see, the Root not being some object parallel to the world is information from F/GO itself.

The Hole in the Root​

So, the most problematic aspect of this whole thing is the "Large quantities of unushed mana" that are mentioned as being in the Root. If the Root is some piñata that you can poke into, so that stuff from inside of it starts gushing out, then that's obviously an issue. That said, from a glance I find this suspicious on two accounts:

Firstly because, from what I see, that statement is done by a character who has no actual experience with the Root itself. She has never been there, and that much was confirmed to me explicitly in the past thread.

Meanwhile, we actually have the testimony of a character who has gazed into the Root: Shiki. And as we've already extensively seen, she is very explicit in saying that the Root is nothing at all. There are no huge reserves of energy anywhere to be seen, according to her. So, weighing up the quality of the evidence, it looks like the "large quantities of mana" just don't exist in the Root at all. Furthermore:

"The Holy Grail collects the souls of the defeated heroic spirits and acts as the reactor core to activate the Great Holy Grail."

"And once the Holy Grail collects enough souls to activate the Great Holy Grail, it uses the heroic spirits' souls to open a hole. The Great Holy Grail fixes the small hole created when the heroic spirits return to their original place after their roles are fulfilled. This opens up the passage to the origin that humans cannot reach." "Of course, this is just the first step. Your wish isn't granted even if the hole is opened. The path to the origin is too far."

"But―――the one who obtains the Holy Grail gains access to unlimited magical energy. The other side has large quantities of unused mana unlike anything seen on this side. For an ordinary magus, it's nothing short of a miracle."

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Source: Fate / Stay Night

It looks like the text is pretty explicit in saying that the "hole" in question is just the first step taken. The actual path to the Root is still too distant even then, and the "large quantities of unused mana" are something obtained from that first step, not from inside the Root (Because, as we've already seen, the Root has nothing at all). So, yeah, this is not a problem in any way.

As for the "hole to the Root" itself: Well, see this post. I've already said before (In multiple occasions) that certain cosmologies do allow for some sort of "access" to a Tier 0, and Type-Moon seems to be exactly that kind of cosmology, as shown in the OP. So, given that, I don't believe there being paths to the Root is actually problematic in-and-of-itself.

To add to that:

Then why are there people who have been able to reach the root? The answer is simple. There is no way to reach it. There are simply people who can reach it. What wisdom can we learn?

In the end, magic is nothing more than an acquired skill. That's what talent is. You either have it when you're born or you don't. It's the difference between being chosen and not. Humans are already connected to the source from the moment they are born. Primates have become more complex, more diverse, and have strayed too far from the source, the origin, but there are rare cases of people who are born directly from the source.

Colorless souls are born connected to the " ". These are the only beings that can reach the source. So all we have to do is seek it out --- and to find it

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Source: Kara no Kyoukai: Paradox Spiral

So the only way to reach the Root, even with the above factors in mind, is effectively through privilege. Sufficient safeguarding, as far as I'm concerned.

The Root and Dimensional Theory​

This would imply that the Root is literally a physical location, which seems plainly contradicted by a lot of other statements (Including Shiki's gazing into it)

The Akashic Records Change?​

"It’s like if" is one hell of a word. That, alone, makes the statement not very solid in my eyes. Would be overridden by other pieces of information, especially seeing as the Root's records, from what I see, are explicitly stated to not even be information, but "existence, nothing more." There being "entries" of things in there doesn't seem to make much sense.

The Root and Time Acceleration​

The idea here seems to be basically that, since the universe is inevitably going to end and then dissolve into the nothingness of the Root, a possible method of reaching the Root would be by accelerating through that and skipping right to the end.

It's interesting, to say the least, but I'm not sure if that's an anti-feat, considering it's not actually affecting the Root but just trying to reach it by sending yourself to the natural death of all substances. Maybe an argument would be "If the dissolution of all things into the Root is itself a temporal process, then that's kinda weird," but I'd have to dwell a little on it.

Would also have to take into account whether that experiment was ever actually successful, in-universe. There's already a scan up there which quite explicitly says that there isn't really such a thing as a "way to reach the Root," just people who are born with a direct connection to the Root and are thus the only beings that can attain it. Seems to basically indicate that any formulation of methods and skills is irrelevant when it comes to that.

BB and the Root​

I'll let the supporters debate this one, since it heavily hinges on in-universe things that are outside my scope as an external observer of the verse.

ORT and the Throne​

Same as above.

Microcosm Root​

Same as above. Seems weird, though, seeing as the Root elsewhere is described as "an absolute first."

Arcueid and the Root​

Same as above. Although, I will say: If it is the case that Zepia disappeared into the Root and yet still remained "existing" in some fashion, as something of the same state of existence as it, and Arcueid in turn can both kill him and bring him out of that state, then, yeah. Massively problematic.

Until these are resolved, I'm neutral on the proposal.

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Everything12 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @PrinceofPein @Planck69 @Ovy7 @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @RatherClueless @DarkGrath

What do you think about this?

Oh, yeah. There were things from the past thread that I ended up not adding to the OP due to a few misunderstandings. I'll be adding them to it shortly.

I am on vacation and won't be able to participate until Wednesday, at the earliest, just as a heads up.

Ultima_Reality said:

Oh, yeah. There were things from the past thread that I ended up not adding to the OP due to a few misunderstandings. I'll be adding them to it shortly.

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They've been added, and I've edited my evaluation to address them.

Okay, apologies for the delay (although I had a lovely vacation). I want to make a couple of primary points.

The first is that the root is not undifferentiated. On this point, I think even the quote given for non-dual speaks to this relatively clearly (from FGO):

As stated by law, emptiness is a territory of freedom.
Free from binary opposition, it is the heart that contemplates the world both as it should be and as it is.

The sky is distant, the colors pale.
A noble figure stands on an uncertain boundary, gazing at the whereabouts of the stars.

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The "noble figure" being referred to is Shiki, referencing the meeting between Ritsuke and Shiki in the Root. This also describes the root as a "territory." This is a location that people can go, and a location where Shiki is, even according to this. This is reflected again by Shiki during her experience in the root in KnK Chapter 4:

Beyond and below lay only darkness. This void, lifeless place could only mean one thing: I was dead. Without anything to even clothe me, I, Shiki Ryougi, floated, and then sank slowly into the fathomless, lightless sea.

There was no end in sight. There was nothing in sight, neither light, and yes, perhaps even darkness. This place was only a hollow, where all meaning ceased to be. A stygian abyss that could not be put into words, and without words it shall remain: a cypher called, simply, “ ”. I fell deeper into the “ ”, and my naked body slowly acquired the pallor of the grave, and it made me want to look away. In my mind, I knew that everything in this place comes to be the same way. “Is this death?” I whispered, though it came out so faint, I doubted if it was even real.

Though time too had no meaning inside “ ”, I observed it. Like a stream tracing out into the infinite, like the process of decay, I mark it. It was an eternity. I plunged ever deeper, and cast my eyes farther, and in that eternity, this place was still empty, devoid of anything except me.

And yet, it was all so calm and serene. It feels as if, in this place without meaning, the fact that I existed at all fits me. Here lay entropy, the end of all things, a place the living may never observe, but only the dead may enter. I died. And yet I am still alive. I felt my mind about to lose its grip. Two years. An instant, stretched out to an eternity. Both are accurate measures of my time spent in this “ ”. Here, I touched death. Here, I fought for my life. Here, I awakened.

Click to expand...

Shiki makes it abundantly clear that she is within this void, the Root. Then in the KnK Epilogue, Void Shiki (who is held to be omniscient) repeats the same thing:

Shiki was forever floating off in a sea called the Swirl of the Root. All alone, in the shape of Shiki, inside of 「 」."

Click to expand...

Shiki Ryogi's soul didn't leave her body and travel to the Root, before returning a couple of years later. Her very Origin is defined by "Emptiness" despite having multiple personalities, due to her Origin, being in a coma and looking inward caused her to gaze into the Root.

Click to expand...

Ultima_Reality said:

So: Shiki was not physically in the Root. She's just comatose and having a vision of it (Though, to add to that: "More than seeing, she felt it").

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As a result, I think this counterargument is insufficient. As you note, the text explicitly says this was not simply seeing. We have several statements, even one from an individual who is omniscient, that Shiki was literally inside the Root, that the Root contained nothing except Shiki, that Shiki was inside the Root "all alone, in the shape of Shiki." That Shiki touched death. We are subjugating all of this to metaphor because of a statement that describes her as looking at the void, even when we have a statement immediately afterwards that says she did more than look at it.

I don't think this is so easily overcome. We have another statement from FGO describing her as being there. The original post even took a statement by Shiki, when Ritsuke was there, as evidence for the Root being Tier 0, so there doesn't appear to be any controversy that the place they are in is the Root. Shiki finds it strange for Ritsuke to be there, but concludes that the connection was made from her side. The context of the scene really doesn't support the idea that Ritsuke just happened to dream it up. How would he obtain that information in the first place to even have a dream about it? Further, the "free from binary opposition" statement describing the Root later has text in the description that recounts this meeting:

As stated by law, emptiness is a territory of freedom.
Free from binary opposition, it is the heart that contemplates the world both as it should be and as it is.
The sky is distant, the colors pale.
A noble figure stands on an uncertain boundary, gazing at the whereabouts of the stars.

◆

That love is an ephemeral dream.
That dream is the remnants of eternity.
An impossible yet fleeting flash of an encounter that I, even now, gaze upon.

As if looking at the far off sky on a snowy night.

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Mind you, this is a craft essence you get from Saber Shiki, so there is no ambiguity as to what is being referred to. I just don't see how we can simultaneously use this description of "True Emptiness" to assert the nonduality of the Root, but then pretend that the meeting inside the Root was not genuine when that same description references that meeting.

Ultima_Reality said:

The Akashic Records Change?
"It’s like if" is one hell of a word. That, alone, makes the statement not very solid in my eyes. Would be overridden by other pieces of information, especially seeing as the Root's records, from what I see, are explicitly stated to not even be information, but "existence, nothing more." There being "entries" of things in there doesn't seem to make much sense.

Click to expand...

I think the idea of the Akashic Records not being information has other obstacles, such as in Chapter 6 of KnK when kind of the whole premise of Kurogiri's character is him obtaining information from the Akashic Records:

Kurogiri: "No matter how high I climbed, I could not retrieve my own memories. The brain never truly forgets memories. However, that is only the case when the brain is free from disorder. My memories had not been temporarily forgotten, but permanently damaged. If I could not rely on my own memories, then I had only one option left to me. I would have to view the records of the past stored within the world itself. Fortunately for me, I possessed the means to do so.

Still, no matter how much I tried, it didn't work. Just as a single man cannot shake his own hand, an observer cannot select themselves as their own target. That is why I had no option left but to recover myself from within others. The consciousness and memories of man are all tied to something that exists on a deeper level. As an aspiring mage yourself, you must already know of the location we refer to as the Swirl of the Root. I searched for memories that may have been connected to me from deep within the consciousnesses of others."

"You mean the Akashic Records?" I shook my head in disbelief. That was impossible. Even Ms. Touko had declared that reaching the origin of everything was inconceivable. Yet here stood Mr. Kurogiri, someone who had.

Click to expand...

Ultima_Reality said:

The argument here is that the "mother of the earth goddesses" up there is the Swirl of the Root. This chick was able to obtain the power of that Goddess, stored away in a giant supercomputer, and through it successfully "digitize" the "nothingness before life," again argued to be the Root itself.

Click to expand...

We also have this quote from Adventures of Lord El-Melloi II Vol. 3, Chapter 3, describing Chinese Magecraft:

"I already mentioned something to that effect in Singapore, but magecraft original to the Orient is different from the Occident's. That's because some concepts have different bases. Let me see if I have a good name for this concept. How about Sharing?"
"What's Sharing?"
"Think of the Philosophy Magecraft spread all over continental Asia. What makes it valid are the Philosophy Foundation, which is an effective simulation of an artificial Root."
"An artificial... Root?"
She lost me completely.
But those words alone were enough to make a shiver run down my spine.
"I know that the Root is the ultimate goal of every mage. I can't imagine it as something people have a way to make."
"Of course we can't. But by 'we', I mean modern Western mages."
I felt my definition of common sense being suddenly flipped upside-down.
I mean, I've heard the circumstances hundreds of times in the Clock Tower. All mages pursue the Root. The Root is the very truth of all, and whoever reaches it would learn the laws and reasons of everything, etc.
I've seen so many mages sacrificing their fortunes, lives, and families just to get one step closer to the Root.
A thought that took me years to digest was flipped on its head.
"I'm sure you heard in the Clock Tower about how pretty much everyone played by their own different rules in the Age of Gods, right? Did you know that Age of Gods mages weren't after the Root?"
I remember hearing that.
That was because the gods were a regular part of reality in the Age of Gods.
"If I recall correctly, it was because in the Age of Gods, making a contract with a god closer to the Root connected the mage directly to the Root."
"That's right", Rin nodded.
She reminded me of the Professor with her approach of taking things step-by-step, always checking how much the learning party knew before moving to the next layer. Although both of them would get angry if I said it out loud.
"But here's the thing, the East and the West's approach to Mystery is completely different. Mainly in how the mages who created Philosophy Magecraft didn't attach greater importance to the gods. Instead of connecting to the Root using the gods as a relay, they created their more refined magecraft systems by building a Mystic Code of themselves when they fused with the planet."
"... Say what?"
I'm sorry.
Listening to this insanity threw me so off myself that I can't even think about whether or not I understood it.
"Hey, wait a second. Did you just mention Mystic Codes fused with a planet? Which planet exactly are we talking about?"
"Our planet, which else? That's the Philosophy Foundation, a Supergiant Mystic Code fused with Earth."
Rin hopped up a hill.
"It's a pretty basic principle, but you'd be surprised by the amount of people who never heard about it even in the Clock Tower's New Age classes. I mean, it has barely anything in common with the magecraft we study. Actually, no... our teacher would probably call them the same in how they use spells as formulas to construct Mystery. He's very nitpicky when scoring tests."
I could almost see the Professor's figure in the background. I might be going insane, but I'll save that thought for later.
"Excuse me, could you put that in simpler terms?"
"The gist of it is that while the mages in the West use all sorts of foundations for their magecrafts, the Philosophy Mages stick to the Philosophy Foundation. That's all."
A "that's all" doesn't cut it here.
Rin speaks like this is common knowledge, but I still haven't accepted any of that. It's like she brought up nuclear power in a conversation about the steam engine. Wait, I remember the Professor saying something about how nuclear power is still generated by a steam turbine.
"Uh, I, uh..."
I can't find the words to say.
"Is this even possible? I mean, making Mystic Codes fused with the planet?"
"It's obviously impossible to build a second pseudo-Root, even in the Orient. The Philosophy Foundation is an item that took all those Xians from the Age of Gods working as a group to build."
"P-phew."
Learning that can't be mass produced restored the bare minimum of my sanity.
With this, I finally can push the most pressing question off my throat.
"Well, does that mean that Wuzhiqi... the one we fought in Singapore..."
"..."
Rin and I stopped talking at the same time.
It was a really uncomfortable silence. The kind we could tell we both already knew the answer but didn't want to say it. Speaking out loud is forcing ourselves to acknowledge the reality of it.
"Yeah, unfortunately."
Rin's sigh didn't interrupt her walk.
"The creation of the Philosophy Foundation is credited to the Ten Officials of the Fangling Shating. With that, they codified the law for the magecraft systems in continental Asia. But of course, she called herself an extra eleventh member, so she could be the exception."
"Oh..."
Now I lost my words for real.
She was basically a true god.

Click to expand...

So, that seems to be an issue as well, in my opinion, and lends credence to the concept mentioned above.

----------------------

I may have more to say later, but I think these obstacles, and the definitive nature in which they are stated, make it better to regard the Root as not being a true monad in the way that we've defined it in our standards.

Deagonx said:

I may have more to say later

Click to expand...

Going piecemeal here is better, anyway. I've been told by @ShadowWhoWalks that he plans to reply in here, so, I'd also ask that you hold off on your response until he does.

Deagonx said:

The first is that the root is not undifferentiated. On this point, I think even the quote given for non-dual speaks to this relatively clearly (from FGO):

The "noble figure" being referred to is Shiki, referencing the meeting between Ritsuke and Shiki in the Root. This also describes the root as a "territory." This is a location that people can go, and a location where Shiki is, even according to this. This is reflected again by Shiki during her experience in the root in KnK Chapter 4:

The original post even took a statement by Shiki, when Ritsuke was there, as evidence for the Root being Tier 0, so there doesn't appear to be any controversy that the place they are in is the Root. Shiki finds it strange for Ritsuke to be there, but concludes that the connection was made from her side. The context of the scene really doesn't support the idea that Ritsuke just happened to dream it up. How would he obtain that information in the first place to even have a dream about it? Further, the "free from binary opposition" statement describing the Root later has text in the description that recounts this meeting:

Mind you, this is a craft essence you get from Saber Shiki, so there is no ambiguity as to what is being referred to. I just don't see how we can simultaneously use this description of "True Emptiness" to assert the nonduality of the Root, but then pretend that the meeting inside the Root was not genuine when that same description references that meeting.

Click to expand...

Firstly, important to note that the term translated as "territory" in the localization is "境地," which can mean "place" but primarily means a "state", as in a state of mind. This coheres with the rest of the statement, which clearly is describing a sort of mental operation, first and foremost. To add to this: Mere usage of words is subordinate to what the work is establishing systematically, therefore one is taken in light of the other whenever possible.

Secondly, the argument presented in the OP is not that the encounter is "non-genuine," but that it is not an encounter that takes place in somewhere existing "side-by-side" with the world. F/GO itself makes clear that the Root is simply the world itself, when all duality and opposition is taken away. The encounter is not necessarily being denied, but the nature of the encounter is being read in light of the broader context. And this, of course, is only what the Omnipotence page warns about:

Finally: As seen above, a number of terms in our everyday vocabulary are, strictly speaking, misnomers when applied to such characters. However, as most writers are human beings, it would be unreasonable to assume they are always speaking in strict philosophical terms when featuring these concepts in their works. As such, mere usage of inadequate verbiage does not automatically disqualify a character, though it might, of course, need justification or amendment by the background context of the character in question, depending on the severity of the inappropriateness.

Click to expand...

This is the same general principle as the counterargument to "Shiki was in the Root." No one is saying "She wasn't in the Root in any sense whatsoever," as if her experience was not genuine. What is happening is that the "In the Root" is being appropriately qualified as demanded by the text. Case in point: You said the statements for your case are "definitive," but neglected to address the very important point that Shiki denies all descriptions she applies to the Root; basically everything she says is with an asterisk.

So the substance of your post ultimately boils down to "If X was not affirmed in precisely this sense, it was not affirmed at all, and therefore the text would be contradicted" which is ultimately an unsubstantiated point.

Ultima_Reality said:

You said the statements for your case are "definitive," but neglected to address the very important point that Shiki denies all descriptions she applies to the Root; basically everything she says is with an asterisk.

Click to expand...

Of course, it's made clear through the text that Ryougi Shiki is confused by what she is experiencing and is struggling to reconcile where she is with her normal perception of reality. She's no longer in a physical space, the concept of "darkness" doesn't even really apply. That doesn't take away from the fact that although she is struggling to understand her experience, it is made abundantly clear that her experience is that of being inside the Root.

Further, we have the other statement from Void Shiki (a different person, Void Shiki being the actual persona that is the Root and is said to be omniscient) describing Ryougi Shiki's experience the same way:

"Shiki was forever floating off in a sea called the Swirl of the Root. All alone, in the shape of Shiki, inside of 「 」."

I believe that should be addressed as well. If we are taking the stance that Ryougi Shiki's experience constituted nothing more than "gazing" into the Root, would we not expect that an omniscient being's description of that experience reflects this, instead of directly affirming the description that we are working our way around? Regardless of whether the exact details of Shiki being inside the Root entails, the fact that she can be inside of this place at all without being dissolved into unity is a clear anti-feat.

Deagonx said:

The "noble figure" being referred to is Shiki, referencing the meeting between Ritsuke and Shiki in the Root.

Click to expand...

Deagonx said:

Mind you, this is a craft essence you get from Saber Shiki, so there is no ambiguity as to what is being referred to.

Click to expand...

How'd you come to this conclusion? Do you also think the Swirl of the Root literally has stars you gaze at?



This is actually a reference is to Mikiya meeting 「Shiki Ryougi」 gazing up into the sky in a snowy night, which happens during the Kara no Kyoukai epilogue.

Deagonx said:

This also describes the root as a "territory."

Click to expand...

Shiki, among others (including Nasu himself), negated all descriptions given to the Swirl of the Root. Descriptions, such as it being a territory or a place, would thus not be literal.

Deagonx said:

We are subjugating all of this to metaphor because of a statement that describes her as looking at the void, even when we have a statement immediately afterwards that says she did more than look at it.

Click to expand...

Deagonx said:

Further, we have the other statement from Void Shiki (a different person, Void Shiki being the actual persona that is the Root and is said to be omniscient) describing Ryougi Shiki's experience the same way

Click to expand...

That person seems capable of conveying metaphors.



Is the Swirl of the Root literally a sea containing liquids and bubbles?

Deagonx said:

The context of the scene really doesn't support the idea that Ritsuke just happened to dream it up. How would he obtain that information in the first place to even have a dream about it?

Click to expand...

Deagonx said:

I think the idea of the Akashic Records not being information has other obstacles, such as in Chapter 6 of KnK when kind of the whole premise of Kurogiri's character is him obtaining information from the Akashic Records

Click to expand...

As explained in-verse by Arcueid, when the term "Akashic Record" is used for the Swirl of the Root, the term is not literal and is actually a misnormer:


Satsuki Kurogiri's ability has been explained as obtaining recorded information stored by the World:

Kurogiri himself explains his ability as such:

The Swirl of the Root is outside of the World and distinct from it.
His ability has the same connection to the Swirl of the Root as Shiki's Mystic Eyes of Death Perception, but that is beside the point.

Deagonx said:

We also have this quote from Adventures of Lord El-Melloi II Vol. 3, Chapter 3, describing Chinese Magecraft

Click to expand...

We also know that the endeavor described is not only a failure, but impossible. So the point is moot.

---

Also to make some inputs regarding the points against.

Ultima_Reality said:

The Hole To The Root​

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It is of note that the mechanism of the Holy Grail Ritual are as such:

1. The seven souls of Servants are sent to return to the Throne of Heroes.
2. The process of return for the Servants' souls opens a hole to the Outside of the World (where the Throne of Heroes exists)
3. The Holy Grail keeps the hole open and prevents it from closing.
4. The Holy Grail ritual or the hole opened are by themselves not enough to reach the Root, but it is just one step toward this far-off journey.

Things stated to exist Outside of the World are:
1- Swirl of the Root
2- The Throne of Heroes
3- The Land of Shadows

If we include what is outside the universe (as Aoko describes), then we entirely different universes with differing laws and lifeforms (universe of Outer Gods, and the universe the Machine Gods came from).
Within a Texture/dimension of the planet hosting a mythology's cosmology, characters are stated to access the "rift between worlds", the "gap between heaven and earth" and the "space outside the universe".


It is also of note that you don't need to get to the Outside of the World to have a massive amount of mana. It is stated that the amount of ambient mana avaliable during the Age of Gods was akin to infinite gazoline from the prespective of a modern mage:

The Outside of the World, which acess is still considered far-off from the Swirl of the Root, is just theorized to have a large amount of ambient mana.

Ultima_Reality said:

The People In The Root​

Click to expand...

The reply to Deagonx in the beginning is highly relevant to this point.
Specifically in the two spoiler buttons made to avoid clutter.

Ultima_Reality said:

BB and The Root​

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There are so many problems with this position.







The similarities in the two descriptions is superficial at best.
If we look at the description of how BB's Noble Phantasm works, she:

• Draws malignant information from her territory of Imaginary Number Space that can overwrites the world and her target.
• She spreads shadows and black tentacles made from Imaginary Number Space.
• She swallows and traps her target inside Imaginary Number Space.
• She modifies/overwrites the target within Imaginary Number Space.

If the opposition is to argue that the two feats are completely identical (not just in end-result, but in mechanism), they'll have to argue that 「Shiki Ryougi」 makes use of Imaginary Number Space for her reality warping.
If they are not identical in mechanism, then it is no more significant than a description of two characters doing a healing feat using two different powers.

Ultima_Reality said:

ORT and The Throne of Heroes​

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I have reservations about highlighting arguments sent by proxy from someone permanently topic banned (and coincidently banned from the forum as a whole). But I'll put them aside.

The second premise goes against all statements that the Swirl of the Root is true emptiness. Also considering Paracelsus, as a Servant, still dreams of reaching the Swirl of the Root, the proposal is disqualified. Otherwise, he has already reached the Swirl of the Root by being recorded in the Throne of Heroes, and it would be the aspiration of every Magus to be recorded as a hero.

The "Throne of the Root" is non-standard terminology with no elaboration, which could be an other name for the Throne of Heroes, or a reference to how everything comes from the Swirl of the Root.

Dr. Romani's makes a proclamation about the Root making a choice, but it is contradicted in the same chapter by Andersen who is the resident expert on Grand Servants. His exposition attributes the Grand Servants to the Counter Force. Once characters actually see Grand Servants being summoned they attribute their summoning to the Counter Force:




Is the Counter Force similar to the Root?
No. The Counter Force (made from Gaia - the will of the planet to survive and prosper, and Alaya - the subconscious will of mankind to avoid extinction) are defensive mechanisms born after the establishment of the planet and humans.

Ultima_Reality said:

Microcosm Root​

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Microcosm can mean a small part of, or an embodiment/encapsulation.
There are many statements that refute the Swirl of the Root being a part of the world, but it has been called an embodiment of everything that exists, most relevantly with the Taiji.



Why highlight the Taiji specifically? Araya's building complex is made to symbolize the Taiji through a ritual where he attempts to comprehend death, and he called the ritual/structure a "microcosm of all the world".
And Touko explains that he means to bring everything back into "oneness", going beyond differentiation through opposition such as light and darkness.


So said point against is actually further supporting evidence when examined.

Ultima_Reality said:

The Akashic Records Change?​

Click to expand...

A point to add is that the record and concept of one's existence is inscriped within the soul itself.


Zouken has his soul create new bodies for himself similar to Zelretch (though Zouken has his soul take over corpses, while Zelretch has his soul take over jewel golems).

And due to this record, Zouken is unable to take any other form other than his own using this method. In addition, his soul/blueprint is rotting, so he increasingly can only create the body of a withered old man.

So the analogy ("It’s like if") of Zelretch's record being corrupted, and registered as a vampire instead of a human, would directly apply to his soul corruption.
Also, the material is not talking about a single unified record of all Zelretchs in all timelines. It is talking about individual souls of specific Zelretchs in the timelines where he got turned into a vampire.

Ultima_Reality said:

Arcueid and the Root​

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Absurd amount of headcanon. Have no clue how these claims were made from those scans.

Night of Wallachia's existence is as a phenomenon of the world; a manifestation - for one night at a time - of a rumored monster among a community.


When Zepia died, he left behind scattered spirt elements/particles in the world. Normally those spirit particles are supposed to disappear overtime due to the lack of a body, however he made them into a phenomena, such that the spirit particles repeatedly converge upon rumors before dispersing again.
His existence as information does not occur within the Swirl of the Root.

ShadowWhoWalks said:

It is of note that the mechanism of the Holy Grail Ritual are as such:

1. The seven souls of Servants are sent to return to the Throne of Heroes.
2. The process of return for the Servants' souls opens a hole to the Outside of the World (where the Throne of Heroes exists)
3. The Holy Grail keeps the hole open and prevents it from closing.
4. The Holy Grail ritual or the hole opened are by themselves not enough to reach the Root, but it is just one step toward this far-off journey.

Click to expand...

Huh. Yeah, if true, then that's a slam dunk against that particular point (Unless the ToH is in the Root after all). One thing, though: Do you have scans establishing that the "original place" mentioned in that scene is the Throne of Heroes?

Ultima_Reality said:

Huh. Yeah, if true, then that's a slam dunk against that particular point (Unless the ToH is in the Root after all). One thing, though: Do you have scans establishing that the "original place" mentioned in that scene is the Throne of Heroes?

Click to expand...

It is the Throne of Heroes.



However, I don't think it is a slam dunk. The same person in the same scene said:

...In short, the Holy Grail War is not a battle to obtain the Holy Grail, but a ritual to escape to the outside world.

Attempts to reach the outside world.
According to hermeticism, there's a power that governs dimensional theory outside of this world.
It's called the 'swirl of the Root', and it's a coordinate that's considered to be the beginning of all things.
It's the start and the end of all creation. It's the seat of God, recording everything and able to create anything

Click to expand...

Even though the details are different, all sorceries are a way to reach the Root! What does it have to do with the Holy Grail?"

"No. First of all, there's only one administrated land in Japan that can activate a sorcery.
I know the ley line in Fuyuki is first-class, but there's not enough distortion to connect to the Root."

"Right. It's not distorted enough to reach the Root. That's why you make a hole. If the path is obstructed, you have to destroy the wall yourself, right?"

"The Holy Grail War is the process of destroying the wall."

Click to expand...

Everything in the verse across numerous storylines describes the Grail war as a process for reaching the root, "securing a bridge" to the root, etc. We'd be overriding a core element of the franchise to reimagine the Grail War as nothing more than obtaining mana from the Throne of Heroes and not the Root. Even if we did imagine that, we would have the issue of the Throne being "closer" to the Root or acting as something in between the human world and the Root. For our standards, the Root should not be anywhere, and it isn't at the top of a hierarchy.

Deagonx said:

Everything in the verse across numerous storylines describes the Grail war as a process for reaching the root, "securing a bridge" to the root, etc. We'd be overriding a core element of the franchise to reimagine the Grail War as nothing more than obtaining mana from the Throne of Heroes and not the Root.

Click to expand...

That much is not being denied, to my understanding. The point is that the "hole" created and fixed in place leads to the Throne of Heroes and not to the Root properly speaking, which coheres with the text saying that the path to the Root itself is still too distant even once the hole is in place.

So, either the Throne is in the Root, and the objection remains the same as before, or the Throne isn't in the Root, and a different objection needs to be raised (What you just argued, for instance). The points and counterpoints should be laid out clearly for the sake of the thread going smoothly, so, settle on a specific position on this.

bumping this so it doesn't get forgotten.

KingNanaya said:

bumping this so it doesn't get forgotten.

Click to expand...

@Ultima_Reality

What currently needs to be done here?

Well, @Deagonx needs to respond to the above posts (Mostly the points to do with the "People can hang out in the Root" contention, first, since going piecemeal is better here) so this thread can continue, mostly.

I've also gotten some extra information that I'll add to the OP, later.

Okay. Thank you very much for helping out so much.

ShadowWhoWalks said:

How'd you come to this conclusion?

Click to expand...

It's simple. This is a description of the Root, delivered through a Craft Essence that is obtained through Shiki. The description describes a brief and impossible encounter with a noble figure as a dream. I suppose we could theorize that this is just random nonsense, but it's just very logical to connect this to the meeting (brief encounter) in the Root with Shiki (the noble figure) while Ritsuka was dreaming.

ShadowWhoWalks said:

Shiki, among others (including Nasu himself), negated all descriptions given to the Swirl of the Root. Descriptions, such as it being a territory or a place, would thus not be literal.

Click to expand...

I don't know why you're using the English translation of a manga rather than the source material the manga is adapting. In any case, I don't see what in these scans is suppose to "negate it being a place," so that point would need to be expanded upon.

ShadowWhoWalks said:

We can all agree that Shiki experienced/felt being inside the Swirl of the Root by gazing into it

Click to expand...

No, this is an obfuscation of the text. We are told explicitly that she did more than simply gaze into it. You are rewording it to pretend everything that happened was a function of gazing when this is (A) an implausible reading of the various quotes about her literally being there and (B) contradicts the aforementioned statement.

ShadowWhoWalks said:

--- I can't believe it now. Remembering that world after I woke up I thought about it and there couldn't be anything more pathetic than that world. That darkness, even if it was just a nightmare I dreamt up during my sleep --- I can't stand the thought of falling into that place again.

If you are claiming the experience/feeling was gained through an alternative mechanism, such as the soul leaving the body, citation need to be provided.

Click to expand...

This is Shiki trying to understand the unbelievable experience she just went through after first waking up confused. She proposes the possibility of it being a nightmare, that isn't her saying it was literally nothing more than a dream and other statements contradict that.

ShadowWhoWalks said:

That person seems capable of conveying metaphors.

Click to expand...

Of course, but there's no indication that Void Shiki was using some kind of metaphor when she directly stated: All alone, in the shape of Shiki, inside of 「 」."

Shiki's experience in the Root is a central part of the story, and your theory that it was just a dream about the Root or where she looked at the Root is contradicted multiple times. I'm not a fan of the argument that every quote that contradicts you is just some kind of metaphor that should be brought into unity with the dream theory even when neither the context or content of the quotes suggests it.

ShadowWhoWalks said:

Mentioning Ritsuka, and the sky imagery, is also curious, since it is explicitly a dream.

Click to expand...

Ritsuka is dreaming, yes, but Shiki is clear about where they are and the fact that Ritsuka's presence there is unusual, and she then realizes the connection was made on her side (the Root).

ShadowWhoWalks said:

Is the mechanism of this dream explained? Yes it is.

Note that Ritsuka said that this is "Another strange dream".

Click to expand...

I suppose you could theorize that Ritsuka just dreamed about Shiki by chance and that none of it was real, but the fact that the description of the True Emptiness in Craft Essence form (which, I mean, that shouldn't be possible either. How would True Emptiness be an object that can be equipped on Shiki) references this meeting suggests otherwise, and even describes the encounter as impossible. We seek to recognize that both of these instances really are referring to the Root, because both Shiki's description of the location during the meeting was used in the OP, and so was the description of the craft essence called True Emptiness that Shiki can equip, but now we move away from it being authentic because it creates issues? Can't say I agree with that.

Bump, Because I want to know how this will end.

Deagonx said:

It's simple. This is a description of the Root, delivered through a Craft Essence that is obtained through Shiki. The description describes a brief and impossible encounter with a noble figure as a dream. I suppose we could theorize that this is just random nonsense, but it's just very logical to connect this to the meeting (brief encounter) in the Root with Shiki (the noble figure) while Ritsuka was dreaming.

Click to expand...

A brief and impossible encounter you say?

That would be her encounter with Mikiya then. As stated within Saber Shiki's profile, her extremely rare and brief 'encounters' occur on a snowy night:

Her craft Essence itself mentions the snowy night, which is very on the nose. The only two encounters we know of that 「Shiki Ryougi」 had in a snowy night are with Mikiya.

That is not random non-sense, that is a very balatant reference for people familiar with Kara no Kyoukai as a work.

Deagonx said:

I don't know why you're using the English translation of a manga rather than the source material the manga is adapting. In any case, I don't see what in these scans is suppose to "negate it being a place," so that point would need to be expanded upon.

Click to expand...

Because the manga has further elaboration.

I'll highlight sections of the scans previously posted just for you.


You are using the term "place" as a literal description of 「 」.
However, 「 」 lacks any description that can be conveyed, in other words it transcends definition.

In fact, merely using words, in an attempt to descripe 「 」, in actuality ends up describing something else besides 「 」, and this has been explained multiple times.




「 」 is without limits or binary opposition, and Nasu acknowledges that the act of describing with words sets boundaries and limits.



The term "place" is a word and description.
To attempt to use the term "place" as a literal description is to discuss a strawman.

Deagonx said:

No, this is an obfuscation of the text. We are told explicitly that she did more than simply gaze into it. You are rewording it to pretend everything that happened was a function of gazing when this is (A) an implausible reading of the various quotes about her literally being there and (B) contradicts the aforementioned statement.

Click to expand...

We are explicitly told that all she did was gaze.
The gazing involved more than simply seeing, but experiencing/feeling death as well.

If we are going by the literal translation, it has three sentences:
1- Shiki was in a coma for two years unable to see the outside world.
2- Shiki was forced to endlessly gazed into the void that 「Shiki Ryougi」 is.
3- Shiki learnt what death felt like.

What Shiki experienced is the furthest thing from literal.

Deagonx said:

This is Shiki trying to understand the unbelievable experience she just went through after first waking up confused. She proposes the possibility of it being a nightmare, that isn't her saying it was literally nothing more than a dream and other statements contradict that.

Click to expand...

Shiki recognized the experience as a dream from the very beginning.
She literally said it was nothing more than a dream.

Just like she recognized that:

• She did not literally sink into sea/ocean, as there is no form or space.
• She did not literally see darkness, as there is no light or darkness.
• Time does not literally pass in the Swirl of the Root, as there is no time.

Deagonx said:

Of course, but there's no indication that Void Shiki was using some kind of metaphor when she directly stated: All alone, in the shape of Shiki, inside of 「 」."

Click to expand...

Yes, Shiki was looking at the interior while in a coma, and incapable of looking at the outside world. And the interior is Shiki's body, which has the Origin of 「 」 with connection to the Swirl of the Root. And?

Even taking the sentence literally doesn't help your case.
You keep alluding to some illusive 'contradiction' that doesn't get explained or elaborated on when presented with evidence.

We are staight-up told that it is a dream.
We are straight-up told that the imagery described/shown have no meaning nor exist.

Deagonx said:

Ritsuka is dreaming, yes, but Shiki is clear about where they are and the fact that Ritsuka's presence there is unusual, and she then realizes the connection was made on her side (the Root).

Click to expand...

Both of them were dreaming. From 「Shiki Ryougi」's prespective, everything in the outside world is a dream due to her omniscience.
But objectively, from the context of the mechanism of Ritsuka's regular dreams, they were in a shared dream world created by the memories of Ritsuka and a Servant (Saber Shiki in this case).

Deagonx said:

I suppose you could theorize that Ritsuka just dreamed about Shiki by chance and that none of it was real, but the fact that the description of the True Emptiness in Craft Essence form (which, I mean, that shouldn't be possible either. How would True Emptiness be an object that can be equipped on Shiki) references this meeting suggests otherwise, and even describes the encounter as impossible. We seek to recognize that both of these instances really are referring to the Root, because both Shiki's description of the location during the meeting was used in the OP, and so was the description of the craft essence called True Emptiness that Shiki can equip, but now we move away from it being authentic because it creates issues? Can't say I agree with that.

Click to expand...

I am not theorizing. I am stating what happened.



I already took the effort to gather the quote explaining how Ritsuka's dreams work. For instance:




The facts are quite simple:

1. Ritsuka was explicitly having another of his 'strange dreams'.
2. When Ritsuka has 'strange dreams', Ritsuka and a Servant share a dream world created from their memories.

---

They are refeering to the Swirl of the Root while dreaming about it. They are able to refer to it this way among others, even if it is not the particular way you would have prefered. This has been consistently explained to you multiple times. What part of the concept are you finding difficulty understanding?

1. The Swirl of the Root is depicted abstractly in a dream.
2. The people dreaming talk about or refer to the Swirl of the Root.

Maybe that is not 'authentic' (whatever that means) enough for you, but that is not relevant to the position/argument.
At this point, I am genuinely wondering if you believe or argue that the Swirl of the Root literally has colors, bubbles, and clouds.

---

There are anniversaries, video game releases, and anime releases made into Craft Essences; for example there is a Craft Essence called "Fate/Grand Carnival 2nd Season". So I guess they, too, can be an object that can be equipped.
The bulk of 「Shiki Ryougi」's Max Bond Craft Essence is about her tendency to stare into the sky (in the very rare occasion she isn't asleep within Shiki), and her ecnounter with Mikiya in the outside world.

got permission from @Propellus

ShadowWhoWalks said:

A brief and impossible encounter you say?

That would be her encounter with Mikiya then. As stated within Saber Shiki's profile, her extremely rare and brief 'encounters' occur on a snowy night:

A woman you'd never meet under normal circumstances. Even so...if an encounter were at all possible, it would be on a snowy night, after everyone had gone to sleep.

Her craft Essence itself mentions the snowy night, which is very on the nose. The only two encounters we know of that 「Shiki Ryougi」 had in a snowy night are with Mikiya.

That is not random non-sense, that is a very balatant reference for people familiar with Kara no Kyoukai as a work.

Click to expand...

There's no conceivable reason why Shiki's meeting with Mikiya in some normal location would be referenced in a description of the Root instead of the meeting in the Root that happened in the same game with this character.

ShadowWhoWalks said:

Because the manga has further elaboration.

I'll highlight sections of the scans previously posted just for you.

You are using the term "place" as a literal description of 「 」.
However, 「 」 lacks any description that can be conveyed, in other words it transcends definition.

In fact, merely using words, in an attempt to descripe 「 」, in actuality ends up describing something else besides 「 」, and this has been explained multiple times.

“ ” other If you really wished to pronounce this term, call it “Kara.” Its meaning varied depending on each individual’s understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin. However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer “ ”. To properly express this term was a source of headache during the production of the drama CDs.

「 」 is without limits or binary opposition, and Nasu acknowledges that the act of describing with words sets boundaries and limits.

Infinity is not “ ”. In order to render infinity, one must define limits. Without limits, infinity does not exist. Infinity can be observed because objects possess limits. Ryougi Shiki was immersed in infinity, but found the non-existent limit and severed it. Of course, limits do not exist within infinity, thus one cannot sever something that does not exist. As a result, escaping from this prison is impossible. However -- - without limits, infinity does not exist. Regardless if a finite wall existed, an limitless world is meaningless before Ryougi Shiki. If there is no limit, then it is not infinity, but “ ”. If limits exist, then Rougi would find it and cut away everything. …. What is supposed to be an absolute black hole, to an opponent such as Ryougi Shiki is merely a confined dark cell. The magus felt ashamed of himself.

Q: Does Mana have any special talents? Like her mother's disturbing power and her father's special ability? Nasu: No special power is the greatest special power ~. Humans who solve problems with Mystic Eyes and special abilities don't deserve praises. Takeuchi: You don't have the right to say that. (laughs) Nasu:If an ability can be described in words, then that means it has a limit~.

The term "place" is a word and description.
To attempt to use the term "place" as a literal description is to discuss a strawman.

Click to expand...

To be clear, that's not at all what the word "strawman" means. In any case, the manga is written by a different person who is adapating the LN source material. None of these quotes from the LN (and arguably not even the quote from the Manga adaptation) rebut the fact that it is a place, which is attested to dozens of times. We can't even reasonably apply this logic and still have a discussion about the Root. By the same virtue you're objecting to the Root being a "place" I could object to you saying literally anything about the Root. You can't discard descriptions that are inconvenient to the CRT whilst keeping the ones that are convenient.

ShadowWhoWalks said:

We are explicitly told that all she did was gaze.

For two years, in her comatose state, she was unable to view the outside world, and could do nothing but gaze into the nihil that Ryougi Shiki "is."

The gazing involved more than simply seeing, but experiencing/feeling death as well.

Click to expand...

The fact that she was incapable of taking any action aside from looking isn't in conflict with the fact that she was there. You cut off the part immediately after it:
We are told in the same section that she was there, in the shape of Shiki, inside of " ". While she was inside the root, there was nothing that she could do except stare at the void.

ShadowWhoWalks said:

Shiki recognized the experience as a dream from the very beginning.
She literally said it was nothing more than a dream.

Just like she recognized that:

• She did not literally sink into sea/ocean, as there is no form or space.
• She did not literally see darkness, as there is no light or darkness.
• Time does not literally pass in the Swirl of the Root, as there is no time.

Click to expand...

That's not in the source material. What she says in the actual KnK story is:
And again, these are the musings of a confused Shiki during her first experience with the Root, trying to make sense of what is happening to her. It doesn't rebut what Void Shiki said about it in the least.

ShadowWhoWalks said:

Both of them were dreaming. From 「Shiki Ryougi」's prespective, everything in the outside world is a dream due to her omniscience.
But objectively, from the context of the mechanism of Ritsuka's regular dreams, they were in a shared dream world created by the memories of Ritsuka and a Servant (Saber Shiki in this case).

I am not theorizing. I am stating what happened.

I already took the effort to gather the quote explaining how Ritsuka's dreams work. For instance:

Click to expand...

Except Shiki directly stated that the connection was made on her side, not Ritsuka's side. Then, when Shiki describes the location she is in, she confirms that it is the Root and says that Ritsuka isn't supposed to be capable of being there. The fact that this occurred during Ritsuka's sleep doesn't confirm your theory that it was a dream world instead of the Root, which is what Shiki said it was. This tracks with KNK, since we know Shiki went to the Root when she was comatose, if Ritsuka tends to fall into people's dreams, no reason that Shiki could've have brought him into the Root while she slept, since that is where she goes.

Deagonx said:

There's no conceivable reason why Shiki's meeting with Mikiya in some normal location would be referenced in a description of the Root instead of the meeting in the Root that happened in the same game with this character.

Click to expand...

Actually it is the norm for Max Bond Craft Essence to reference events in the character's past.
The meeting with Mikiya is Kara no Kyoukai's major reveal and epilogue; a significant event indeed.

Deagonx said:

To be clear, that's not at all what the word "strawman" means. In any case, the manga is written by a different person who is adapating the LN source material. None of these quotes from the LN (and arguably not even the quote from the Manga adaptation) rebut the fact that it is a place, which is attested to dozens of times. We can't even reasonably apply this logic and still have a discussion about the Root. By the same virtue you're objecting to the Root being a "place" I could object to you saying literally anything about the Root. You can't discard descriptions that are inconvenient to the CRT whilst keeping the ones that are convenient.

Click to expand...

I gave an accurate example of a strawman; I did not define it. The meaning of a strawman should be self-evident, so I focused on the explanation on why the highlighted position is a strawman.

---

In any case, the manga is "under the full supervision of Kinoko Nasu and Takashi Takeuchi" (奈須きのこ&武内崇による全面監修のもとに), Nasu writes afterwords for the manga volumes, and Nasu has the copyright ownership for the manga. Virtually all official works and adaptions have supervision from TYPE-MOON, but here we even have it from the original author himself.

---

If you acknowledge that "place" is a description, then what argument do you exactly have that doesn't amount to: "The rules established by the author and these characters are wrong and delusional! They can't be trusted!"

---

The wiki's standards does indeed allow discussing apophaticism (it is discussed in the OP for instance, with the three required conditions quoted). Requirements for the tier can be fulfilled notwithstanding appeals to absurdity.
Feel free to object to any description given to the Swirl of the Root, as long as we agree the reason the description is not apt is that the Swirl of the Root is ontologically beyond that description.
Parts of the wiki's standard might not be to your liking, but this is not the place to revise it, and no one is forcing you into a discussion.

Deagonx said:

The fact that she was incapable of taking any action aside from looking isn't in conflict with the fact that she was there. You cut off the part immediately after it:

My origin is emptiness, so the Shiki who controls this body can see death. For two years, she was in a coma and had no contact with the outside world, so all she could do was stare at the void known as Ryougi Shiki. There she knew the taste of death. Shiki was forever floating off in a sea called the Swirl of the Root. All alone, in the shape of Shiki, inside of 「 」.

We are told in the same section that she was there, in the shape of Shiki, inside of " ". While she was inside the root, there was nothing that she could do except stare at the void.

Click to expand...

She had the dream and experience of being 'there' due to the very fact that she gazed within her body.
Nothing mention is in conflict that her experience of being inside 「 」 is an abstract dream, as stated.

Deagonx said:

That's not in the source material. What she says in the actual KnK story is:

"--- This is death." Even the sound of my muttering seems like a dream.

And again, these are the musings of a confused Shiki during her first experience with the Root, trying to make sense of what is happening to her. It doesn't rebut what Void Shiki said about it in the least.

Click to expand...

What the KnK story also says is:

A case closed if we are not going into conspiracy theories about attempting to decieve the reader.

Shiki was objectively able to comprehend death, and successfully comprehend that 「 」 is beyond description. She is cognizant and able to tell whether her experience is a dream or not.

Deagonx said:

Except Shiki directly stated that the connection was made on her side, not Ritsuka's side. Then, when Shiki describes the location she is in, she confirms that it is the Root and says that Ritsuka isn't supposed to be capable of being there. The fact that this occurred during Ritsuka's sleep doesn't confirm your theory that it was a dream world instead of the Root, which is what Shiki said it was. This tracks with KNK, since we know Shiki went to the Root when she was comatose, if Ritsuka tends to fall into people's dreams, no reason that Shiki could've have brought him into the Root while she slept, since that is where she goes.

Click to expand...

Doesn't matter. Mental connection can be done by others.
For example below is a dream world about a frozen landscape. Characters experience things associated with a frozen landscape and can describe said frozen landscape.


Are you saying Ritsuka's dream was not an abstract experience, and the Swirl of the Root is literally bound by colors and clouds? Feel free to explain whether the Swirl of the Root has light and water particles.

「Shiki Ryougi」 confirms that she doesn't sleep as a Servant in her dialogue.
In general, Servants don't sleep or dream, unless they are sharing memories in a dream world with a Master.

Glancing over this discussion:

ShadowWhoWalks said:

If you acknowledge that "place" is a description, then what argument do you exactly have that doesn't amount to: "The rules established by the author and these characters are wrong and delusional! They can't be trusted!"

Click to expand...

The opposition could probably hurl a reductio on this particular point by saying "If all descriptions of the Root are inapplicable, then even the descriptions giving it Tier 0 are inapplicable, so by that logic it should be rated at unknown." I don't think that's really particularly pertinent, though, since the core point can be expressed with much more force by pointing out that Shiki does, in fact, specifically negate all the attributes associated with "place"ness during her experience of the Root, as I already went over in my first evaluation. That, alongside the other statements making it clear that attaining the Root has at least partly to do with a mental operation and not actual locomotion, should already do the trick here.

This has already been pointed out, has it not? Shiki wasn't physically in the Root. She was comatose and having a cryptic mystical experience of it, whereas the counter-argument basically requires that her soul was hanging around in there like a literal fish in a water tank. As already expressed, it basically amounts to "Either Shiki was in the Root in this specific sense or the statements saying she was there are all false and we are going against the text," which is a claim pending substantiation.

Further, this has been quoted twice, by now. Make this a third time:

Finally: As seen above, a number of terms in our everyday vocabulary are, strictly speaking, misnomers when applied to such characters. However, as most writers are human beings, it would be unreasonable to assume they are always speaking in strict philosophical terms when featuring these concepts in their works. As such, mere usage of inadequate verbiage does not automatically disqualify a character, though it might, of course, need justification or amendment by the background context of the character in question, depending on the severity of the inappropriateness.

Click to expand...

So, the Root being called a "territory," a "place," yada yada, isn't inherently problematic.

Ultima_Reality said:

I don't think that's really particularly pertinent, though, since the core point can be expressed with much more force by pointing out that Shiki does, in fact, specifically negate all the attributes associated with "place"ness during her experience of the Root, as I already went over in my first evaluation. That, alongside the other statements making it clear that attaining the Root has at least partly to do with a mental operation and not actual locomotion, should already do the trick here.

This has already been pointed out, has it not? Shiki wasn't physically in the Root. She was comatose and having a cryptic mystical experience of it, whereas the counter-argument basically requires that her soul was hanging around in there like a literal fish in a water tank. As already expressed, it basically amounts to "Either Shiki was in the Root in this specific sense or the statements saying she was there are all false and we are going against the text," which is a claim pending substantiation.

Click to expand...

I can't agree really that it is pending substantiation. The purportedly omnipotent/omniscient Void Shiki asserted:
This is an excruciatingly direct assertion. She was alone, in the shape of Shiki, inside of the Root. The only possible rebuttal is to just assume it meant something other than what it plainly says. I've already explained why I think that approach is such a bluster. If we can freely rewrite/reimagine even the most directly stated and credible contradictions as metaphors (such as a direct statement from the omniscient avatar of the Root itself) then Tier 0 can functionally never be contradicted.

As far as "not actual locomotion" goes, I have to disagree to an extent. There are statements to the effect of reaching the root mentally, but the majority of methods discussed in the verse do involve some kind of traversal. If you recall, the counter-argument to the Holy Grail "opening up a hole to the root, from which mana comes out" was that it merely opened up some sort of intermediary pathway which contained the mana. We've seen statements where characters are said to have physically blocked off paths to the root that existed in certain physical locations on earth.

I'd disagree that Shiki negates the attributes of "placeness." Rather, she negates the attributes of physical placeness, which is fine, I've never contended that the Root is a physical spacetime any more than something like Nil or Limbo is, but it is certainly a place that Shiki was. This is affirmed by other characters in KnK as well:

So again, Shiki definitely negates the physical concepts, she recognizes that she wasn't really falling and that she was just in a void that was completely nothing, but she was there in the shape of Shiki inside the Root, and locomotion does bring you "closer" to it.

Wankbreaker said:

got permission from @Propellus

Spoiler: yap city

i won’t respond to deagons points, i think he can handle those on his own. but im not sure where the other points came from, but they’re in the OP, so its fair game.



No, the night of wallachia is not inside of the world. this is literally one of the first information dumps we get about it.

“Yes. Tatari—No, ‘The Night of Wallachia’ does not have a lair. In the first place, it is something that does not even exist in this world.”

this is enough.





as for the throne of heroes,this would be very simple to prove.



“The Throne of Heroic Spirits that's said to be a hall of records within the void? Unfortunately, it's nothing so noble and innocent as that.”



touko also says that the first thing that would come out of a hole to the root if he opened one would be a CG. the context implies not a CG being summoned in response, but a CG existing on the other side and coming out of the hole.



But, how? Even if you don't set out a magical ward to testify that you aren't a mage, you can't fool the will of the dominant race. The only ones you can fool by using a technological ward are other mages. If you use this building a path will definitely open. Since its the realization of the Taeguekdo, a hole would certainly appear. **But the first thing to come out of that hole will be a Counter Guardian. **As long as we are who we are, there is no way we can stand up to that."



this also doesn’t discount anything, as arcueid says in MBAA that the “will of emptiness/the heavens”, and the will of the planet, have their own laws and will seperate.





Angra’s existence as a pseudo grail, the Inverted Moon of the Heavens, creates some sort of area where the root is on one end, and the normal world on the other.







both he and bazett physically run in opposite directions.



also, you only need 6 servants to grant your wish, but the 7th servant is what you need to reach the root.



the root does indeed contain some form of magical energy.



神代の文明は循環、現代の文明は消費。

神代は真理と共にあり、現代は真理を識ろうとする。

循環の理で世界が回っていた神代において、魔術師は根源に到達する必要がない。

だって根源から魔力を得ているようなものだから。

同時に、あまりに身近に感じられるため、根源にいたろうという考え自体思いつかない。



Ancient civilizations were about cycles, modern civilizations are about consumption. The ancient era existed with truth, while the modern era seeks to understand truth. In the ancient world, where the principle of cycles governed everything, magicians didn't need to reach the Root (the origin of all things). After all, it was as if they were already obtaining magical energy from the Root. At the same time, because it felt so close, the idea of reaching the Root didn't even occur to them.



the “truth” in question is the root, and the energy obtained from it is “true ether”. explains why it vanishes from the surface after the AOG,as mages don’t exist along side “truth”.

ether in nasu sometimes uses the kanji “空”.

meaning true ether would be “真空” (true emptiness). meaning by manipulating and using true ether, you are essentially using true emptiness as energy, or manipulating it to your own ends.



i won’t comment on the other points, I’ve just decided to focus on the ones i find most promising and relevant here.

but as an additional comment. the taiji uses the same microcosm kanji shiki uses in that paragraph.



also for araya:

「無論だ。だがおまえが知りえない真実もある。

　確かに、私は死の数ばかりを追っていた。何万という異なる人間の異なる死を経験すれば、その中に根源に通 じる魂の拡散があると信じていた。だが、それでは大元には到達できない。それで辿着けるのはその人間の『起 源』だけだ。霊長という総体の起源には辿り着けない。

　重要なのは死の量ではない。死の質だ。元を辿れば死に方の種類はより大きく区別される。私は死途を可能な まで大きく腑分けし、結果それが六十四種であると迫った。ここに集まった者達は一人一人がその種の死に方を 背負った者。いうなれば世界の縮図だ。私は彼らの苦しみを体験し、彼らの苦しみを内包する。いずれ八卦より四象へと単純化させ、両儀へと至るため に」



he says iu nareba ['so to speak', 'you might call it', 'one way to describe it'] which suggests that he thinks 世界の縮図 is a loose description, or at best just one way to look at it.

this particular phrasing is not present in ryougis case.

im not particularly ready to ride on this point,but i found it REALLY interesting how nasu uses this phrasing.


i actually have new antifeats to bring up, but that’s going to clutter the thread, so i would rather have these resolved before making the next move

Click to expand...

got permission from @Ultima_Reality to “make one comment, and then scram.”
so that’s exactly what I’ll do

pretty much, it’s entirely useless to debate about the negative theology portion of this, as this did not exist during the age of gods.

I covered a bit of this in my last comment, but ill explain it more clearly.

mages from the age of god existed alongside truth (the root), and modern mages seek to regain that lost understanding.

This leads to the conclusion that AOG mages had an understanding of the Root, and it was lost during the switch to the age of man.

this is supported by most,if not all magecraft being true magic, the fact that AOG mages manipulated and used energy directly from the root (true emptiness/ether), and the fact that the act of reaching the root was useless to them,because they existed alongside it.

im new to the site,so im not sure if this is not a contradiction under the vsbw system(so ultima or whoever can correct me if im making a fatal error) but it doesn’t make sense for something to “become” apophatic overtime.

Wankbreaker said:

got permission from @Ultima_Reality to “make one comment, and then scram.”
so that’s exactly what I’ll do

pretty much, it’s entirely useless to debate about the negative theology portion of this, as this did not exist during the age of gods.

I covered a bit of this in my last comment, but ill explain it more clearly.

mages from the age of god existed alongside truth (the root), and modern mages seek to regain that lost understanding.

This leads to the conclusion that AOG mages had an understanding of the Root, and it was lost during the switch to the age of man.

this is supported by most,if not all magecraft being true magic, the fact that AOG mages manipulated and used energy directly from the root (true emptiness/ether), and the fact that the act of reaching the root was useless to them,because they existed alongside it.

im new to the site,so im not sure if this is not a contradiction under the vsbw system(so ultima or whoever can correct me if im making a fatal error) but it doesn’t make sense for something to “become” apophatic overtime.

Click to expand...

I suspect that it won't be considered a potent anti-feat, although I would be interested in clarification from @Ultima_Reality as to what, if anything, would be considered an anti-feat for an entity that has apophatic statements. In the real-world analogues that use apophatic theology, it doesn't generally prohibit that sort of thing. For instance, in Catholicism:


In essence, it's fine to say things about an apophatic deity, they don't necessarily have to be "absolutely unknowable" and information about it can be obtained through natural reason (described as 'analogical' to qualities that we have) but we can't fully understand it. I'm an outspoken critic of this because I think it's inherently meaningless doublespeak, but that's just how it is.

There are statements where it's said that in the Age of the Gods, the magus at that time weren't driven seek the Root the way modern magus do because they were so much closer to the Root and understood it much better. I find it challenging to think of a framework where that makes sense with apophatic theology, but I have to imagine it won't have much stopping power here.

Deagonx said:

I suspect that it won't be considered a potent anti-feat, although I would be interested in clarification from @Ultima_Reality as to what, if anything, would be considered an anti-feat for an entity that has apophatic statements. In the real-world analogues that use apophatic theology, it doesn't generally prohibit that sort of thing. For instance, in Catholicism:

God is not absolutely unknowable, and yet it is true that we cannot define Him adequately. But we can conceive and name Him in an "analogical way". The perfections manifested by creatures are in God, not merely nominally (equivoce) but really and positively, since He is their source. Yet, they are not in Him as they are in the creature, with a mere difference of degree, nor even with a mere specific or generic difference (univoce), for there is no common concept including the finite and the Infinite. They are really in Him in a supereminent manner (eminenter) which is wholly incommensurable with their mode of being in creatures

In essence, it's fine to say things about an apophatic deity, they don't necessarily have to be "absolutely unknowable" and information about it can be obtained through natural reason (described as 'analogical' to qualities that we have) but we can't fully understand it. I'm an outspoken critic of this because I think it's inherently meaningless doublespeak, but that's just how it is.

There are statements where it's said that in the Age of the Gods, the magus at that time weren't driven seek the Root the way modern magus do because they were so much closer to the Root and understood it much better. I find it challenging to think of a framework where that makes sense with apophatic theology, but I have to imagine it won't have much stopping power here.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I told as much to a few people off-site. Generally, the point is that if a Tier 0 is a mind or some analogue thereof, necessarily it understands itself perfectly. This "perfect understanding" is what something other than a Tier 0 can by no means have. But having a greater-but-imperfect awareness of it is passable; what you can't do is comprehend it to the extent it comprehends (Or would comprehend) itself, since that'd imply you're somehow on the same level of existence as it in some respect.

I've been told in the aforementioned off-site conversations that there are things on the same level of existence as the Root (True Ether and Divine Spirits, specifically), which is big if true. But that's probably better reserved for later into the thread.

ShadowWhoWalks said:

Actually it is the norm for Max Bond Craft Essence to reference events in the character's past.
The meeting with Mikiya is Kara no Kyoukai's major reveal and epilogue; a significant event indeed.

Click to expand...

Except Shiki's dialogue literally has her saying this to Fujimaru:

ShadowWhoWalks said:

In any case, the manga is "under the full supervision of Kinoko Nasu and Takashi Takeuchi" (奈須きのこ&武内崇による全面監修のもとに), Nasu writes afterwords for the manga volumes, and Nasu has the copyright ownership for the manga. Virtually all official works and adaptions have supervision from TYPE-MOON, but here we even have it from the original author himself.

Click to expand...

That's fine, but that does not mean that every slight change in dialogue comes from him, nor do I think it gives the manga adaptation greater weight than the source material. Moreover, as I've said, this entire thread pertains to descriptions of the Root. There's nothing special about the description of it as a "place."

ShadowWhoWalks said:

If you acknowledge that "place" is a description, then what argument do you exactly have that doesn't amount to: "The rules established by the author and these characters are wrong and delusional! They can't be trusted!"

Feel free to object to any description given to the Swirl of the Root, as long as we agree the reason the description is not apt is that the Swirl of the Root is ontologically beyond that description.
Parts of the wiki's standard might not be to your liking, but this is not the place to revise it, and no one is forcing you into a discussion.

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I'm not objecting to the standards, I'm objecting to your argument. The only manner through which we could reject it being a "place" vis-a-vis apophatic theology could just as easily be wielded against the entirety of your evidence, so we must conclude there's nothing special about the "place" description that allows it to be discarded. As to your claim that the Root is "ontologically beyond" descriptions, that's a phrase of your own making and not something the source material actually says. Apophaticism is not a get out of jail free card for all potentially problematic descriptions. This has largely been a discussion about what people say about the Root. We can't arbitrarily pick and choose what statements we let bypass apophaticism and which ones we don't. The argument just doesn't work, it's special pleading.

ShadowWhoWalks said:

She had the dream and experience of being 'there' due to the very fact that she gazed within her body.
Nothing mention is in conflict that her experience of being inside 「 」 is an abstract dream, as stated.

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This, again, is just blatant editorializing. The first problem is that -- again -- her gazing and her being inside of it are not at odds with eachother. The second is that the only statement about it being a "dream" was stated as an if by Shiki when she had first woken up and didn't understand what had happened to her:


Shiki proposing the possibility of it being a dream does not override everything else and doesn't even actually conflict with it. When 「 Shiki Ryougi 」discusses Shiki's experience, she says directly that Shiki was inside the Root in the shape of Shiki, not that she had a dream about the root.

ShadowWhoWalks said:

Are you saying Ritsuka's dream was not an abstract experience, and the Swirl of the Root is literally bound by colors and clouds? Feel free to explain whether the Swirl of the Root has light and water particles.

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Imaginary Number Space is described as a place where "real world distances have no meaning" "depth does not exist" and "exists on a negative vector." It lacks the laws of physics, you have to erase yourself from reality to reach it, and nothing can exist there except what's made of void. Time doesn't progress. In FGO, you are able to travel to Imaginary Number Space in a submarine, where a painter servant fills it with various fish that you can eat and cook. At one point the ship literally collides with the barrier between Void Space and Reality Space. You run aground in a physical reef, and detect fish enemies with sonar. Sonar. In the unobservable non-physical non-existent void. You can then eat the void fish. For sustenance. In a world where time does not progress. After a crack is made in the ship's hull, the void space starts literally flooding the ship, as if it were water.

Point being, if your argument is that the Root having colors and clouds makes no sense then I agree with you, but that doesn't mean that isn't what happened, because as demonstrated above, FGO has a lot of things that make no sense. Do I need to remind you of the time that they traversed to the Reverse Side of the World? The Reverse Side, which you guys argued was a viable candidate for the "outside of the world" location that the Greater Holy Grail was required to get to, which is said to be outside the Laws of Physics and outside the realm of human knowledge was reached by "spelunking" 2,700km into the Earth.

Remember when Da Vinci said of the Outer Gods: "Regardless of what they look like, they're not immortal metaphysical or conceptual beings. They're still flesh and blood creatures with life spans just as finite as ours." The Outer Gods, who are also said to exist outside the universe's laws and logic and are higher than pretty much anything in the entire series, are explicitly defined as not metaphysical, not conceptual, not immortal, flesh and blood creatures with finite lifespans.

Don't blame me that FGO doesn't make any sense.

ShadowWhoWalks said:

「Shiki Ryougi」 confirms that she doesn't sleep as a Servant in her dialogue.

To be honest, I don't sleep. That's why I spend the nights all alone by myself. I can't help but feel like I'm missing out, but I suppose it does give me the chance to watch you sleep. I only wish I could protect you in your dreams, too.

In general, Servants don't sleep or dream, unless they are sharing memories in a dream world with a Master.

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I got permission from Ultima to speak (I kind of wish my other posts weren't deleted, but it's not like they were too relevant anyway).

Deagonx said:

Except Shiki's dialogue literally has her saying this to Fujimaru:

What do I like? Of course it's you, the Master who summoned me. Even if our encounter is nothing but a fleeting dream.

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Sure, but that still doesn't change that her Bond CE references her meeting with Mikiya.

Deagonx said:

That's fine, but that does not mean that every slight change in dialogue comes from him, nor do I think it gives the manga adaptation greater weight than the source material. Moreover, as I've said, this entire thread pertains to descriptions of the Root. There's nothing special about the description of it as a "place."

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Eh, that's not entirely true. Nasu will sometimes make changes in adaptions that override the original in future works; the biggest example of that is the inclusion of Atrum Galliasta as Caster's original Master in the 2014 Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works anime (in the visual novel, her original master was just some nameless old man). Regardless, it's still something to take into account.

Deagonx said:

I'm not objecting to the standards, I'm objecting to your argument. The only manner through which we could reject it being a "place" vis-a-vis apophatic theology could just as easily be wielded against the entirety of your evidence, so we must conclude there's nothing special about the "place" description that allows it to be discarded. As to your claim that the Root is "ontologically beyond" descriptions, that's a phrase of your own making and not something the source material actually says. Apophaticism is not a get out of jail free card for all potentially problematic descriptions. This has largely been a discussion about what people say about the Root. We can't arbitrarily pick and choose what statements we let bypass apophaticism and which ones we don't. The argument just doesn't work, it's special pleading.


This, again, is just blatant editorializing. The first problem is that -- again -- her gazing and her being inside of it are not at odds with eachother. The second is that the only statement about it being a "dream" was stated as an if by Shiki when she had first woken up and didn't understand what had happened to her:

That darkness, even if it was just a nightmare I dreamt up during my sleep --- I can't stand the thought of falling into that place again.

Shiki proposing the possibility of it being a dream does not override everything else and doesn't even actually conflict with it. When 「 Shiki Ryougi 」discusses Shiki's experience, she says directly that Shiki was inside the Root in the shape of Shiki, not that she had a dream about the root.

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I won't comment on this since I'm not as knowledgeable on The Garden of Sinners, but have you considered that this statement might just eb an outlier when compared to all of the other statements about the Root?

Deagonx said:

Imaginary Number Space is described as a place where "real world distances have no meaning" "depth does not exist" and "exists on a negative vector." It lacks the laws of physics, you have to erase yourself from reality to reach it, and nothing can exist there except what's made of void. Time doesn't progress. In FGO, you are able to travel to Imaginary Number Space in a submarine, where a painter servant fills it with various fish that you can eat and cook. At one point the ship literally collides with the barrier between Void Space and Reality Space. You run aground in a physical reef, and detect fish enemies with sonar. Sonar. In the unobservable non-physical non-existent void. You can then eat the void fish. For sustenance. In a world where time does not progress. After a crack is made in the ship's hull, the void space starts literally flooding the ship, as if it were water.

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That's not a great example because all of that happened because Hokusai was powered up by Van Gogh's Noble Phantasm, which allowed her to rewrite Void Space to be able to interact with Reality Space and contain "physical" things, including all of the monsters and coral reefs, which is also why Void Space/Imaginary Number Space can be "flood" the Nautlius. Also, the only reason sound even worked was because of Yang Guifei being able to hear it and specialized equipment made to interact with Void Space, and Van Gogh had to turn the creatures into "real" things so we could use their materials and/or eat them.

Deagonx said:

Point being, if your argument is that the Root having colors and clouds makes no sense then I agree with you, but that doesn't mean that isn't what happened, because as demonstrated above, FGO has a lot of things that make no sense. Do I need to remind you of the time that they traversed to the Reverse Side of the World? The Reverse Side, which you guys argued was a viable candidate for the "outside of the world" location that the Greater Holy Grail was required to get to, which is said to be outside the Laws of Physics and outside the realm of human knowledge was reached by "spelunking" 2,700km into the Earth.

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You're talking about Spirit Cave Albion in Lostbelt 6, right? Well, that's also not a great example as it was created by Albion, the Dragon of Boundaries, which is the reason it even reached the Reverse Side of the World in the first place. Plus, the whole cave is described as a separate dimension itself (which lines up with how Spirit Tomb Albion is depicted and described in Proper/Pan-Human History).

Deagonx said:

Remember when Da Vinci said of the Outer Gods: "Regardless of what they look like, they're not immortal metaphysical or conceptual beings. They're still flesh and blood creatures with life spans just as finite as ours." The Outer Gods, who are also said to exist outside the universe's laws and logic and are higher than pretty much anything in the entire series, are explicitly defined as not metaphysical, not conceptual, not immortal, flesh and blood creatures with finite lifespans.

Don't blame me that FGO doesn't make any sense.

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I mean, that's not the weirdest thing. Why does a higher dimensional creature, outside of the human laws and logic have to conceptual or immortal?

Deagonx said:

Musashi	The last thing you remember, you were still in your own world and bam! Next thing you know, you're waking up here.
Musashi	I can't say for sure whether you're dreaming or not...
Musashi	But I have heard stories about people's spirits leaving their bodies while they dream.
Musashi	Some puppeteer with glasses once told me that while it was extremely rare to travel to other worlds while dreaming, it does happen occasionally...
Choices	I...see... Something like that is going on with Shiki...

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This is more a reference to why Shiki is a Servant in the first place. Her timeline got incinerated by Goetia, but she's in a dream, which allowed her to manifest in Chaldea as a Servant (I can't remember if that was Void Shiki's doing or not). Keep in mind that the one dreaming is not Shiki Ryougi the Servant, but Shiki Ryougi the human.

I don't think it's prudent to have the same debate with two people at the same time, so if ShadowWhoWalks still intends to produce his own response, I'll limit my reply to that once its posted. If he does not, I'll respond to you instead.

Deagonx said:

I don't think it's prudent to have the same debate with two people at the same time, so if ShadowWhoWalks still intends to produce his own response, I'll limit my reply to that once its posted. If he does not, I'll respond to you instead.

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Ok, sorry about that.

Antvasima gave me permission to make a few comments, due to the lack of response from his pinging of ultima or deagon regarding my other request (not meant to be passive aggressive, fyi)

i was going to reply to @ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn’s other comments, but they’re deleted now, and I forgot most of its contents.

for now im just going to address the one thing I did remember being mentioned, the throne of heroes stuff.

i already addressed this mostly in my first comment

as for the throne of heroes,this would be very simple to prove.



“The Throne of Heroic Spirits that's said to be a hall of records within the void? Unfortunately, it's nothing so noble and innocent as that.”



touko also says that the first thing that would come out of a hole to the root if he opened one would be a CG. the context implies not a CG being summoned in response, but a CG existing on the other side and coming out of the hole.



But, how? Even if you don't set out a magical ward to testify that you aren't a mage, you can't fool the will of the dominant race. The only ones you can fool by using a technological ward are other mages. If you use this building a path will definitely open. Since its the realization of the Taeguekdo, a hole would certainly appear. **But the first thing to come out of that hole will be a Counter Guardian. **As long as we are who we are, there is no way we can stand up to that."



this also doesn’t discount anything, as arcueid says in MBAA that the “will of emptiness/the heavens”, and the will of the planet, have their own laws and will seperate.





Angra’s existence as a pseudo grail, the Inverted Moon of the Heavens, creates some sort of area where the root is on one end, and the normal world on the other.







both he and bazett physically run in opposite directions.

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(there’s supposed to be Imgur scans here,but just check the original comment.)

but I actually have one new piece of evidence to bring up regarding this point.

英霊を聖杯によって根源の渦を固定化 使役し生き残った者だけが、聖する事


Only the one who survives, utilizing the heroic spirits, is supposed to obtain the Holy Grail, fixate (TL note: or stabilize) the Swirl of the Root by means of the Holy Grail, and eventually reach the Root itself.

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cut the relevant line from here.


This is very self-explanatory.


regardless, the grail not reaching the root is contradictory, as that’s the reason why it was made

ive seen other people bump without permission, so I hope this doesn’t eat one of the comments I have left.

i would like to see staff/member opinion of the above

Wankbreaker said:

Antvasima gave me permission to make a few comments, due to the lack of response from his pinging of ultima or deagon regarding my other request (not meant to be passive aggressive, fyi)

i was going to reply to @ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn’s other comments, but they’re deleted now, and I forgot most of its contents.

for now im just going to address the one thing I did remember being mentioned, the throne of heroes stuff.

i already addressed this mostly in my first comment




(there’s supposed to be Imgur scans here,but just check the original comment.)

but I actually have one new piece of evidence to bring up regarding this point.



cut the relevant line from here.


This is very self-explanatory.


regardless, the grail not reaching the root is contradictory, as that’s the reason why it was made

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It's  designed to reach the Root, but it never  reached the Root. The ritual was never propearly completed.

Edit: I'm talking about the Holy Grail.

Deagonx said:

There are statements where it's said that in the Age of the Gods, the magus at that time weren't driven seek the Root the way modern magus do because they were so much closer to the Root and understood it much better.

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The only reason mages in the Age of Gods "understood" the Root better and were "closer" to it is because the Gods walked the earth at that time. Divine Spirits and Gods are "connected" to the Root, and the magecraft of the Age of Gods involved invoking a God's name (and therefore its power), which is why they didn't necessarily need to seek out the Root.

ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn said:

It's  designed to reach the Root, but it never  reached the Root. The ritual was never propearly completed.

Edit: I'm talking about the Holy Grail.

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that has nothing to do with the stated capabilities of the grail,which is:

fixate (TL note: or stabilize) the Swirl of the Root by means of the Holy Grail, and eventually reach the Root itself.

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Angra Mainyu also does this with merely a fraction of the grail’s powers.

The only reason mages in the Age of Gods "understood" the Root better and were "closer" to it is because the Gods walked the earth at that time. Divine Spirits and Gods are "connected" to the Root, and the magecraft of the Age of Gods involved invoking a God's name (and therefore its power), which is why they didn't necessarily need to seek out the Root.

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not the only reason, if you read the quote that I sent, it says AOG mages received energy directly from the root (True Ether), and the kanji for true ether, can also be translated as “true emptiness”.

Gods are also likened to the root itself,which considering they are True Ether bodies, makes sense, as they are literally part of the root’s essence given form.

Their magecraft, on the other hand, directly connected with the Root and Divine Spirits- no, the gods themselves."

Please stop arguing amongst yourselves, this is a staff thread.

What are the staff conclusions here so far?

Antvasima said:

What are the staff conclusions here so far?

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no staff has actually put an opinion down yet