Second Life Ranker Discussion Thread

Lysairth · Feb 13, 2024

A quick question

“Right. Mortals, transcendents… Gods, demons, dragons, giants… Any being that has a ‘soul’ is able to learn knowledge. They can gain enlightenment and twist the already existing laws to create new laws. And all these are only possible where light reaches.”

Among the infinite Wordlines, there were no more than five Emperors, and <Deus Ex Machina> was one of them.<Deus Ex Machina> was basically going to give Chang-Sun all the fundamental elements, such as laws and principles, that composed a concept. In other words, it meant he was giving another Divine Rank to a Celestial…!

From that statements, it can be deduced that Laws and Principles are something that is even more fundamental than that of a concept. So I have a question, with a case like this :

Let's take an example of the Transcendents whose domain/concept is of death, to twist the already existing law of death is equal to altering the first concept of Death, which is the part of the Black King itself who is known as a CM 1 user.

So, would those Transcendents gain Law Manipulation with Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 (Alteration) as a sub-ability from that?

Lysairth · Feb 13, 2024

EL_xWatcher1234x said:
What make it type 1?

For Conceptual Gods, there is one debatable reason for CM 1, and that is because they were created by the leftover fragments of powers from the fight between the 2 known users of CM 1 which is The Heavenly Demon and The Black King. There are two opinions on this thing though, with one side agreeing to it while the other is disagreeing with it, so it goes with the rating of 'Likely CM1' in my opinion.

For Elder Gods, it's because they predates reality and remains unaffected by it's destruction iirc, idk for sure but it can go with the same rating as the Conceptual Gods or become valid with enough context, which I haven't seen or collected yet.

EL_xWatcher1234x · Feb 13, 2024

Lysairth said:
For Conceptual Gods, there is one debatable reason for CM 1, and that is because they were created by the leftover fragments of powers from the fight between the 2 known users of CM 1 which is The Heavenly Demon and The Black King.

Need more info here, where they created from them or by them? or can you show the scan?

EL_xWatcher1234x · Feb 13, 2024

Lysairth said:
From that statements, it can be deduced that Laws and Principles are something that is even more fundamental than that of a concept. So I have a question, with a case like this :

Let's take an example of the Transcendents whose domain/concept is of death, to twist the already existing law of death is equal to altering the first concept of Death, which is the part of the Black King itself who is known as a CM 1 user.

Maybe, what type of concept They’re talking about here?

Lysairth said:
So, would those Transcendents gain Law Manipulation with Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 (Alteration) as a sub-ability from that?

Agree

Lysairth · Feb 13, 2024

EL_xWatcher1234x said:
Need more info here, where they created from them or by them? or can you show the scan?

It was from these statements, with the Light aka The Heavenly Demon reacting with the emptiness and nothingness, which refers to the Black King itself.

'Conceptual gods came into being when the first light shone and the universe was
created… ’ The creation of the universe could be understood as a process that began when light, a foreign substance, exploded into nothingness and emptiness.

As pieces of nothingness and emptiness reacted with the light, their properties
changed little by little. As actions and changes occurred, these became the
foundation for the birth of godly beings. These beings had undeveloped consciousnesses and primitive appearances, but they also had the power to peer into multiple universes and dimensions. These beings became known as conceptual gods or elder gods.

Most of these beings didn’t have desires, so even though they existed, it was almost like they didn’t. These gods usually settled in one part of the universe and became the elements of Ideas. On the other hand, the elder gods observed the changes in the universe and did not intervene.

The conceptual god called Mother Earth had risen from fragments of nothingness
and emptiness, and the original form of such fragments was the Black King.

The <Supreme Light> expanded universes and brought knowledge and wisdom to each civilization to develop conscious beings, while the <Dull Darkness> embodied the universes themselves, giving conscious beings space to act in. Although it seemed at first glance as if light and darkness would fight, they did not; rather, they meshed with each other, making up the laws of universes and worlds.

So it should be from them.

Lysairth · Feb 13, 2024

EL_xWatcher1234x said:
what type of concept They’re talking about here?

The concept aka the domains of the Transcendents, which is the thing they used to control their respected Laws. Such as the Gods of Death who rule upon Death, Gods of Creation who rule upon Creation, etc. Cmiiw.

EL_xWatcher1234x · Feb 13, 2024

So, none of them is Nothingness or emptiness?

That's sound like type 2 considering they come into being after the universe was created, unless their conceptual power is equal to the heavenly demon or Black King.

Lysairth · Feb 14, 2024

EL_xWatcher1234x said:
So, none of them is Nothingness or emptiness?

Nope, they were only made from fragments of nothingness, not the nothingness itself.

EL_xWatcher1234x said:
That's sound like type 2 considering they come into being after the universe was created, unless their conceptual power is equal to the heavenly demon or Black King.

And that's precisely why it is debatable, cuz most Conceptual Gods aren't capable of contending with either the Black King or The Heavenly Demon.

The main reason for it being debatable is because they're part of the Ideas, which is the fundamental laws and concepts that built up the reality, with the Ideas having a high chance of being independent of the reality with more context and statements, which haven't yet to be directly mentioned or I just haven't found it.

Lysairth · Feb 14, 2024

And now that I think about it, a question popped up in my mind, what exactly is an Idea/Ideas?

From Second Life Ranker and Divine Twilight's Return's narration, Ideas are something that is comprised of all Conceptual Gods, being Small Cogwheels and Large Cogwheels that serve as the fundamental laws, principles, and concepts that made up the reality.

But there is also this statement, that said that <The Heavenly Demon> is the Idea itself. Yet there is a statement of <Deus Ex Machina> being surrounded by Idea that is stated to be the law of the world, and yet having to "Look Up" to see <The Heavenly Demon> which is also stated to be the Idea itself. So what kind of thing Ideas/Idea actually are? Are they the same thing or not?

donegbe · Feb 15, 2024

EL_xWatcher1234x said:
What make it type 1?

they predate the universe, are fragments of the black king

donegbe · Feb 15, 2024

Lysairth said:
And now that I think about it, a question popped up in my mind, what exactly is an Idea/Ideas?

From Second Life Ranker and Divine Twilight's Return's narration, Ideas are something that is comprised of all Conceptual Gods, being Small Cogwheels and Large Cogwheels that serve as the fundamental laws, principles, and concepts that made up the reality.

But there is also this statement, that said that <The Heavenly Demon> is the Idea itself. Yet there is a statement of <Deus Ex Machina> being surrounded by Idea that is stated to be the law of the world, and yet having to "Look Up" to see <The Heavenly Demon> which is also stated to be the Idea itself. So what kind of thing Ideas/Idea actually are? Are they the same thing or not?

take it on context. Personally, I won't try to generalize it except for HD.

Setsuna_tenma · Feb 15, 2024

Lysairth said:
And now that I think about it, a question popped up in my mind, what exactly is an Idea/Ideas?

From Second Life Ranker and Divine Twilight's Return's narration, Ideas are something that is comprised of all Conceptual Gods, being Small Cogwheels and Large Cogwheels that serve as the fundamental laws, principles, and concepts that made up the reality.

But there is also this statement, that said that <The Heavenly Demon> is the Idea itself. Yet there is a statement of <Deus Ex Machina> being surrounded by Idea that is stated to be the law of the world, and yet having to "Look Up" to see <The Heavenly Demon> which is also stated to be the Idea itself. So what kind of thing Ideas/Idea actually are? Are they the same thing or not?

concept/law hax

EL_xWatcher1234x · Feb 15, 2024

donegbe said:
they predate the universe, are fragments of the black king

But they come to existence after the begining of the universe, that's type 2 unless they're equal to the power of Nothingness emptiness.

Rikimarox2 · Feb 15, 2024

Even if you arrived after the universe, that doesn't necessarily disqualify you from type 1. All you need is just some statements that even if the things of that concept disappeared, the concept would exist. Or if the universe's existence is different from ours (ie say the concept existed, but the things of that concept still didn't exist), etc...

EL_xWatcher1234x · Feb 15, 2024

Rikimarox2 said:
Even if you arrived after the universe, that doesn't necessarily disqualify you from type 1. All you need is just some statements that even if the things of that concept disappeared, the concept would exist. Or if the universe's existence is different from ours (ie say the concept existed, but the things of that concept still didn't exist), etc...

Can you post a CRT to make this clear?

Lysairth · Mar 9, 2024

With The Tower's System being a causality system/laws of causality that binds all things in general since it is just another name of Laws of Causality, as stated by The Heavenly Demon. Next, Transcendents are said to be an Acausality type 4 beings with them being free from the constraints of the system once they passed the stage of <Exuviation>, which is a path one should took before going to <Transcendence>.

Here comes the question, Transcendents are Acausality type 4 beings, yet they could only stay in the Heavenly World (98th floor beyond the 1-97th floor) because of the different causality system level that was implied to them. So, is it safe to assume that the causality system of Heavenly World are superior than those of the Lower World? Since the lower world's Causality system looked pretty muchly like general Causality system that worked everywhere, while the Heavenly World's one are capable of binding even the Transcendents to Law of Causality.

Next, even though they're called Transcendents, they themselves said that their <Transcendence> wasn't <True Transcendence> since they haven't completely escaped the laws of causality aka being completely independent of causality, unlike the Emperors.

The Emperors are beings who existed beyond the Laws of The Worlds, Worldlines, etc. And was also said to be completely free and independent of causality as they exist outside and beyond of it, with them being almost impossible to interact. Hence, it seems plausible for the Emperors to be given Acausality type 5 as the benefit of their physiology.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and do share your opinion on this one

Lysairth · Mar 9, 2024

Ziplak said:
i didnt even know return of the shattered constellation was the sequel for slr.

Well, it's mentioned in the ending of Second Life Ranker's novel 1st Side Story, while the manhwa itself has some easter egg related to Second Life Ranker

Lysairth · Mar 9, 2024

Are these feats enough for BDE type 2?

Just as Mother Earth had many
names, the Black King did as well. But most of them were vague metaphors: Great Crevice, Egg of Chaos, Endless Whirlpool, the One in the Boiling Abyss. None actually provided a real identity.
It was because he had already existed even before the universes and dimensions were born. He wasn’t tied to space and time and transcended everything. He was considered blind because he could see beyond seeing. He was called “dull” because he could think beyond thinking. He was an unpredictable being even to the gods and demons and the truth-seeking dragons. It was no exaggeration to call him the void that existed before the universe began. -SLR Ch. 490

The ability of time itself was removed from the Black King. The Black King was
emptiness that had existed before the creation of the universe. He represented the condition of being “paused,” when the concept of time didn’t exist. Considering how time was a moving concept, it was the direct opposite of The Black King. -SLR Ch. 656

Rikimarox2 · Mar 9, 2024

BDE Type 2 standards got changed iirc, and you need to be like at least low 1-C in order to properly gain it.

So, if we consider the whole "the universe's are just dreams of the Black King", then he can qualify for BDE2. If we don't, then he doesn't qualify.

Lysairth · Mar 9, 2024

Rikimarox2 said:
BDE Type 2 standards got changed iirc, and you need to be like at least low 1-C in order to properly gain it.

So, if we consider the whole "the universe's are just dreams of the Black King", then he can qualify for BDE2. If we don't, then he doesn't qualify.

I just checked it, and guess it won't be applicable then, considering that the Nil Domain aren't even possible to be 4th Dimensional Space that could qualify for L1C thing since it lacked Time and Space.

Tho it seems possible for BDE type 1.

Rikimarox2 · Mar 10, 2024

Most definitely fits for type 1, dude kinda fits all the criteria.

donegbe · Mar 11, 2024

Lysairth said:
With The Tower's System being a causality system/laws of causality that binds all things in general since it is just another name of Laws of Causality, as stated by The Heavenly Demon. Next, Transcendents are said to be an Acausality type 4 beings with them being free from the constraints of the system once they passed the stage of <Exuviation>, which is a path one should took before going to <Transcendence>.

Here comes the question, Transcendents are Acausality type 4 beings, yet they could only stay in the Heavenly World (98th floor beyond the 1-97th floor) because of the different causality system level that was implied to them. So, is it safe to assume that the causality system of Heavenly World are superior than those of the Lower World? Since the lower world's Causality system looked pretty muchly like general Causality system that worked everywhere, while the Heavenly World's one are capable of binding even the Transcendents to Law of Causality.

Next, even though they're called Transcendents, they themselves said that their <Transcendence> wasn't <True Transcendence> since they haven't completely escaped the laws of causality aka being completely independent of causality, unlike the Emperors.

The Emperors are beings who existed beyond the Laws of The Worlds, Worldlines, etc. And was also said to be completely free and independent of causality as they exist outside and beyond of it, with them being almost impossible to interact. Hence, it seems plausible for the Emperors to be given Acausality type 5 as the benefit of their physiology.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and do share your opinion on this one

I do agree with this

Lysairth · Apr 17, 2024

Misunderstood some thing back then by thinking that Nihil = Nil Domain = Outer Universe, when it should've been Nihil ≠ Nil Domain ≠ Outer Universe. So here's the summary of the actual things :

• Nihil = Emptiness/Void beyond the universe, pretty muchly the common things between each Worldlines. Nihil is such a thing that it's true to it's name as it's so empty it doesn't even have Space and Time.

Some might call Mephistopheles the observer of the many worldlines in <Nihil>, where time and space didn’t exist, but they didn’t know anything. -DTR Ch.176

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In the end, the entire Instance Dungeon was wiped from existence leaving only black nothingness behind. It was nihil itself, which was known to exist beyond the universe. -DTR Ch. 187

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<Nihil> was a pathway that allowed Outer Celestials to come into contact with Eros, and <Darkness> was a constituent of <Nihil>. Since <Darkness> was also <Dull Darkness>’ power, Outer Celestials could use it to activate their Authorities. However, they couldn’t influence it because it was the root of their existence. -DTR Ch. 459

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And judging by their description alone, it could be denoted that Nihil is pretty muchly like Nil Domain, the borderline.

• Nil Domain = Border that separated Inner Universe and Outer Universe.

The Nil Domain. The end of all Worldlines. The Great Universe’s shell... the border that separated the inner and outer universes. -DTR Ch. 428

This one is the thing that I confused with the Outer Universe back then.

• Outer Universe = Universe beyond Nil Domain, where it contained <Nihil>, <Abyss>, <Darkness>, etc. It's also filled with Darkness and Emptiness which is represented by those things. Universe so chaotic and disorderly where Light didn't flow.

The inner universe was influenced by the will of <Supreme Light>, becoming the ordered part of the universe. On the other hand, the outer universe was where <Supreme Light> could not reach, and chaos continued to run rampant. -DTR Ch. 322

Anyway, here is another thing. Eros (Inner Universe) and Nox (Outer Universe) are symbolized with Tree and Soil or Egg yolk and Egg White. With the continuous branching and growth of Worldlines that spanned infinitely, the Outer Universe continue to recede, though it would still be in the far future as Outer Universe is larger than the Inner Universe as a whole.

"This firmament library spans the realm of 'Idea' (εἶδος).”

“This Idea, the essence of all forms and the temple of truth, is located at the back of the entire macrocosm, but is located at the top and encompasses the entire outer universe."

Changseon just quietly listened to what <Deus Ex Machina> said.

Since he was also pursuing spiritual knowledge, he had basic knowledge and did not have much difficulty understanding it.

"And the realms of Eros and Nox are now becoming unclear as time goes by. Do you know why?"

"Isn't it because Eros keeps growing?"

"Right.

"As world lines continue to differentiate, infinite parallel universes and multiverses are filling Nox's domain." -DTR Ch. 547

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"It is the world tree."

"Eros was symbolized to make it easier to understand the world we live in."

The moment Changseon saw it, he could easily understand its structure.

As said in <Deus Ex Machina>, the world tree was Eros. The root is Idea. The stem is the Changgong Library. The branches were a multiverse and the leaves were a parallel universe that differentiated from there. -DTR Ch. 547

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Idk what would that give, especially for the Idea which is further explained as something that exist at the back of the entire macrocosm and simultaneously being at the top and encompasses even the outer universe as it's the essence of all forms.

Lysairth · Apr 17, 2024

Maybe the author took reference of this?

Eidos - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Considering that it's pretty muchly fitting with how Idea are being described throughout the story.

Highness · May 11, 2024

May I ask what tier Cha Yeon-Woo should be in, because I've only read 412 chapters of his novel?

Lysairth · May 11, 2024

Highness said:
May I ask what tier Cha Yeon-Woo should be in, because I've only read 412 chapters of his novel?

At the end of the novel, he would be tier 2B from his AP that is scaled with the Black King, and 2C in terms of Destructive Capability.

Lysairth · May 18, 2024

Ideas = Concept type 1, Justification :

In this verse, it applied a particularly known theory, and that is Plato's Theory of Forms. And how do we know that? It's simply by correlating it with the characteristics shown by the things itself. Such as :

1. The Ideal and The Phenomena / The Perfect Reality and The Physical World

Argh! Mother Earth was overcome with excruciating pain and screamed. 『Stop! I said stop! If you continue, the World Tree will be ruined! Even your natural laws…
the divine providence of your physical world will be destroyed! Don’t you know this? And yet, you wish to continue?』-SLR Ch. 585

By forcing Mother Earth from the World Tree, it was inevitable that part of the World Tree would be torn off since she was in the process of assimilating with it. Yeon-woo wasn’t sure he could rip off only the infected parts, and if he continued, he might accidentally rip off the parts of the World Tree that weren’t infected. This meant that he might damage the Ideas. Since the natural laws were the basis for the existence of divine beings, they naturally had a strong attachment to the World Tree. Apart from this, damaging the World Tree would mean damaging the physical world, so it was something that even the gods avoided. No matter how crazy the gods were and no matter how severe their conflicts, they still avoided affecting the Ideas. - SLR Ch. 585

2. Ideas exist beyond Space and Time

Same as the reasoning below and above, both World Tree and River of Souls are stated to be beyond both Space and Time, and The Realm of Ideas should also scale with it.

3. Ideas are many in number / plural

I don't think I have to explain this one, since I've discussed it a while ago and still on this same page, about Ideas and Idea.

4. Soul of all beings, comes from the Realm of Ideas of which they shared memories or aka Consciousness from the River of Souls / Group Subconscious, where it existed beneath The World Tree that existed in The Realm of Ideas.

There were things all living things could identify and connect to regardless of the environment they grew up in. Everyone was born with an instinctive way of reacting to things. There was a shared space where images and symbols manifested even before birth, and all living things were connected to this space beyond time and space. - SLR Ch. 535

「What you’ve seen is part of the group subconscious, the birthplace where all souls are born and where they return after they are destroyed. Additionally, it’s the root of all truth and laws. It’s like a river where fish, which are the souls, live. It’s always flowing and affecting souls. The reason why all living beings have instincts and can think is that this river exists.」「No. It’s different. Reincarnation begins in Sumeru. It is a cycle that allows souls to continue existing as part of a branch of the world tree. On the other hand, this is more like the earth that the roots of the world tree touch. This is on the very bottom of the universe.」- SLR Ch. 535

5. Ideas are also independent of their replica, on which they are told to be the root that is indirectly stated to be independent of the things they governed with.

The World Tree that managed the system of reincarnation was rooted here. Souls that wanted to reincarnate were absorbed into fruits and when the fruits were matured, they fell into the river and joined the other souls. This place was the original form of collective unconscious that all living forms possessed. Moreover, this was the root of the present universe with the concepts of dreams and wheel now gone. - SLR Ch. 797

Can't quite remember the feats but it's pretty much like how World Tree and River of Souls are beyond space and time, and those two are being contained by the Realm of Ideas.

So, yeah. Anybody who are capable of affecting the ideas should reasonably given with CM type 1 & type 2 as their abilities. E.g. of who would got it :

1. The Emperors : CM 1 (Alteration & Destruction) & CM 2 of All Existing Concepts (Alteration and Destruction)

2. 5th Step Dragons & Above : CM 1 (Alteration) & CM 2 of All Existing Concepts (A little NLF tbh)

3. Transcendents are arguably able to have those as well, based on this one statement.

Since the natural laws were the basis for the existence of divine beings, they naturally had a strong attachment to the World Tree. Apart from this, damaging the World Tree would mean damaging the physical world, so it was something that even the gods avoided. No matter how crazy the gods were and no matter how severe their conflicts, they still avoided affecting the Ideas.

That should be a solid reasoning for CM 1 in Sa Doyeon's verse, though the feats are quite incomplete due to how scattered they are, or the feats are simply being underlined by another feats that I've forgotten and overlooked. Anw, share your thoughts on this one

Lysairth · Jun 16, 2024

Lysairth said:
Next, even though they're called Transcendents, they themselves said that their <Transcendence> wasn't <True Transcendence> since they haven't completely escaped the laws of causality aka being completely independent of causality, unlike the Emperors.

The Emperors are beings who existed beyond the Laws of The Worlds, Worldlines, etc. And was also said to be completely free and independent of causality as they exist outside and beyond of it, with them being almost impossible to interact. Hence, it seems plausible for the Emperors to be given Acausality type 5 as the benefit of their physiology.

This reply is nothing more than to solidify what I said above, without further ado, here are the feats :

• Complete Independence

Even if they transcended, gods, demons, dragons, and giants all said their transcendence wasn’t true transcendence.
They weren’t able to escape the laws of causality spread throughout the universe and dimensions, so how could they be called true transcendents? The same went for Uranus.
But beings who escaped the laws of causality and gained “freedom” were called differently: Emperors. They were the rulers of all. - Second Life Ranker Ch. 659

Except for those who were at the ‘emperor’ level, who were completely independent entities free from the constraints of time, space, and causality, everyone, from gods to demons, had no choice but to be entangled to the effects and whims of the clockwork wheel. - Second Life Ranker Ch. 724

An emperor is a being who is completely free from the countless iterations of the ‘wheel’ and freed from the laws of the world and the constraints of Ideas. - Second Life Ranker Side Story Ch. 16

Further context, wheel represents the reality, and Ideas represents the Realm of Ideas.

Mortals thought transcendental and supreme beings were from a whole different world that no mortal could reach, but even those beings thought of themselves as halfwits. After all, despite having completed their <Transcendence>, they still weren’t free from the law of causality. There were beings far superior to them. Emperors, they were called. Having broken free from even the law of causality, Emperors obtained true freedom, becoming complete and flawless. Nothing was capable of damaging them, allowing them to reign as the rulers of Worldlines and the Great Universe. - Divine Twilight's Return Ch. 428

• Lack of, Uninteractable through conventional means, and Superiority

“The reason why I can see you right now is I used Sinmara’s ability to observe timelines, but you can’t meet me or talk with me through any normal method anymore, can you?” [1]

It was the collapse of one’s existence—no, perhaps it could be called elimination from the law of causality. [2]

“Judging from the spatial distortion around you, you’re being erased from Eros much more quickly. The traces you left as Peter will eventually disappear or be forgotten.” [3] - Divine Twilight's Return Ch. 455

Half of Chang-Sun was already harmonized with Nyx, gradually becoming free from the law of causality. His other half was midway through becoming a Celestial King, reaching one of the most supreme levels that could be reached in Eros. - Divine Twilight's Return Ch. 468

The 4 feats above are shown to explain the things about the Worldlines, whereas someone who's simply getting erased from Eros, are uninteractable because they're eliminated from the law of causality, and all those beings aren't even qualified to become an Emperor yet.

But at the same time, I’m no longer their son, because I surpassed the restrictions of the law of causality by becoming an Emperor, so my original ties to everyone I knew were naturally severed.” [1]

Becoming an Emperor meant that one had transcended their Worldline and become a fully self-contained being. In other words, all the causal links that defined that person disappeared, because an Emperor was beyond time and space. They stayed the same all throughout, from the beginning of time to the present, and even into the distant future. [2] - Divine Twilight's Return Ch. 325

These 2 are to further prove that Emperors causality are truly gone and they have superiority over it.

Done, and that should be it, feel free to comment, as I might have overlooked some inconspicious feats.

Highness · Jun 22, 2024

May I ask question top10 in SLR who are they?

and should the Black King be 1-A? because he sees the universe dimensions as just his dream. should this be R>F?

I don't know much about it so I apologize if my questions are bad.

Lysairth · Jun 27, 2024

Highness said:
May I ask question top10 in SLR who are they?

Subjectively, from my pure opinion :
1. Yeon-Woo/Heavenly Demon (Their capabilities are debatable, while HD has never shown his full power as he is exhausted, but his growth of power continued with the expansion of the Worldlines, Yeon-Woo are not to be triffled either, with him being BK's mind itself as of currently, enabling him to freely use BK's powers.)
3. Bull Demon King/Deus Ex Machina (I still can't quite tell which one is stronger)
5. Martial King / Lee Changseon
7. Resident of The Border / Mephistopeles
9. Gaia
10. The rest of the Outer Transcendents.

Highness said:
and should the Black King be 1-A? because he sees the universe dimensions as just his dream. should this be R>F?

This one is a no, but the Black King seems fine to be L1C with some feats that I've reviewed once again.

Lysairth · Jun 28, 2024

While I was trying to search for some philosophical & theoretical references that was being used in the verse, I've reviewed some feats once again and found out that this verse can be extended to L1C, so without further ado, here are the feats :

— First mention of higher dimension

Shake. The push and pull between Yeon-woo and the Crawling Chaos began to make the universe bend around them. The dimensions of the physical world began to collapse as though the universe were on the verge of destruction. A bent space of the fourth dimension appeared.

Crack. It was a singularity that swallowed all matter, anti-matter, time, and space, creating an ergosphere bounded by an event horizon. Both Yeon-woo and the Crawling Chaos slowly lost their sanity as they were swept away into the collapsing dimension.

Yeon-woo endured with the strength of the Sin Stone while the Crawling Chaos released more vestiges. As they did, the gravitational singularity widened, and the dimension began to collapse faster than the speed of light, creating a black hole.

Krrrrr. Whoosh! The space around the two vanished to reveal an entirely new location. It was a dark world without a single ray of light. Before Yeon-woo could discover where he was, from far away, the Crawling Chaos laughed. - SLR Ch. 531

The place they were falling to is the Group Subconscious or also known as The River of Souls.

Still using Jeong-woo’s appearance, the Crawling Chaos unfurled his Sky Wings and quickly flew off. Yeon-woo had no idea where he was headed. He couldn’t tell which way was up, down, right, or left. He remembered fighting with the Crawling Chaos just moments ago, so he had no idea what had happened. Just as he was about to catch up to the Crawling Chaos to ask…

『Don’t go there. It’s dangerous.』 Someone grabbed his shoulder.

Yeon-woo turned around, and his eyes widened in surprise. “Monkey King?”

It was a man with mischievous eyes and long white hair, the exuviae that the Devil Army had snatched before Yeon-woo could meet him on the Five Element Mountains.
He and the Summer Queen had helped Yeon-woo save Jeong-woo in the pocket watch. Why was he here?

『This is the world of your unconscious, kiddo.』

Only then did Yeon-woo understand. When the Crawling Chaos’ vestiges reached a certain area in his mind, Yeon-woo’s defense mechanisms forced him into this world.

There were things all living things could identify and connect to regardless of the environment they grew up in. Everyone was born with an instinctive way of reacting to things. There was a shared space where images and symbols manifested even before birth, and all living things were connected to this space beyond time and space. However, there were no details about this storage space. - SLR Ch. 535

As it has stated already, the Group Subconscious is basically a four dimensional space, as it's a space beyond time and space, and specifically mentioned to be fourth dimension of space.

And as far as I can tell, The Group Subconscious, The World Tree, The Realm of Ideas, Realm of Nyx, etc. that wasn't part of Eros, were pretty muchly fit to be chain-scaled. As even the likes of Odin and Mephistopheles are said to be higher-dimensional being.

『‘Abyss-Chasing Great Devil’, hm?』

Chang-Sun held his head high as ‘he’ spoke. Although the voice emerged from his mouth, it did not belong to him. It came from a higher-dimensional being deep in his soul. ‘Chang-Sun’ continued.

『I have heard of you before. In the first universe, a realm completely different from mine, there was a human who worshiped <Dull Darkness>. He ate an ancient devil and became an Outer Celestial himself to grow closer to <Dull Darkness>.』 The <Darkness> that had been leaking out of the gradually opening door dyed the world pitch-black. The mirror maze was gone, replaced by a night sky completely bereft of stars.

Meanwhile, many monsters prepared to rise into the world in pursuit of that sky, the <Darkness>. Those monsters had appearances and physiques that could not possibly exist according to the laws of this universe. Some had limbs in impossible places, while others resembled great, hundred-eyed spheres. Many of them resembled creatures from dreams born of the deepest slumber.

However, Chang-Sun—no, Odin in Chang-Sun’s body—paid little heed to those monsters, treating them as insignificant. His sole focus was on Mephistopheles, who was the only one observing this place from beyond. - DTR Ch. 316

So yeah, L1C & HDE.

Pedonar · Jul 24, 2024

how strong is Cha Yeon-Woo by the end of the novel 1-A or higher with the new tier?

Lysairth · Aug 4, 2024

Pedonar said:
how strong is Cha Yeon-Woo by the end of the novel 1-A or higher with the new tier?

He's atmost L1C with all the complied feats of :

• Emperor is a being that resides in a higher dimension, like literally, as even Jeong-Woo see a 4D Space and 1D Time just like how one would perceive 3D Space and 1D Time. Or shortly 4D HDE with that evidence alone.
• 5D Space-Time (Group Subconscious), is nothing but something that is contained within the Abyss, which is a part of the Outer Universe.
• Yeon-Woo got a feats where he is capable of creating a Wheel, which is technically Time Axis, that covered even the Outer Universe, without giving that Outer Universe a Time, which is confusing, right? Like, he created a Time Axis that could affect a place, but the place of which he created it remains as nothingness that lacked Space-Time.

Lysairth · Aug 4, 2024

Laws of Nature is Ideas.

I think the feats are self explanatory, so I won't bother explaining once again.

By forcing Mother Earth from the World Tree, it was inevitable that part of the World Tree would be torn off since she was in the process of assimilating with it. Yeon-woo wasn’t sure he could rip off only the infected parts, and if he continued, he might accidentally rip off the parts of the World Tree that weren’t infected. This meant that he might damage the Ideas. Since the natural laws were the basis for the existence of divine beings, they naturally had a strong attachment to the World Tree. Apart from this, damaging the World Tree would mean damaging the physical world, so it was something that even the gods avoided. No matter how crazy the gods were and no matter how severe their conflicts, they still avoided affecting the Ideas. - SLR Ch. 585

Demiurges brought natural elements from Idea, the world where the <Laws of Nature> could never be modified, and built new worlds, sustaining them afterward. Demiurges did not originate from nothing and made their creations based on existing materials, so they were incomplete. However, they also tended to keep trying to become complete. - DTR Ch. 499

So yeah, anyone who can affect Laws of Nature would got CM 1. And those feats basically further validate that every Transcendents would got AE type 1 (Type 1 Concept) and not simply Type 2 anymore since every Transcendents is part of Idea. Also some concepts such as Death and Time, would got a plus rating somehow as it's stated directly to transcend even the Laws of Nature.

Even though he was being devoured by the Demonism, Kronos occasionally regained his senses and made multiple preparations. The domains of time and death transcended the laws of nature, so he needed to organize them once in a while. - SLR Ch. 567

Boom! The Martial King did not just collapse space. He collapsed everything within that space. The atmosphere, the particles, the laws, the existences… everything collapsed. If ordinary gods were parts of an Idea, an emperor-level being could freely utilize those parts or break them. - SLR Ch. 622

Pedonar · Aug 4, 2024

Some wank him to tier 1-A possibly 0 for his true form

Lysairth · Aug 4, 2024

Pedonar said:
Some wank him to tier 1-A possibly 0 for his true form

I have seen it aswell, which is kinda funny.

Lysairth · Aug 4, 2024

— Bright Tai Chi Pangu Sword Capabilities —

First of all, it had to be known that Bright Tai Chi Pangu Sword could only be done by combining two techniques, which is Yang Sword and Yin Sword.

Yeon-woo nodded heavily. Although Edora succeeded in protecting the Psychic Medium from Laplace, she couldn’t do more than that. The Yang Sword was lacking when compared to the potential of the Bright Tai Chi Pangu Sword.
“It’s because it wasn’t in harmony with its other half, the Yin Sword. The Yang Sword and Yin Sword aren’t special at all when they exist separately. They must be combined as one for their true appearances to shine through… only then can the curse of the system be repelled.” - SLR Ch. 627

[1] Yang Sword, is the power to make law of the world revolve around one's body.

A strong whirlwind rotated around Scythe in a clockwise direction. When Kronos released his vestiges to fit the frame of the world, the law of the world began to revolve with him as its center. Soon, the strong wind that rotated around Kronos ascended upwards towards the sky and became the sun, yang. - SLR Ch. 683

[1.1] It's the same case with Yin Sword, just that it's counter clockwise.

Yeon-woo’s yin sword rotated its forces in the reverse direction and slowly sank downwards as it became darkness, yin. The conversely rotating air currents and forces did not interfere with each other, but rather, they interlocked like cogs to accelerate each other’s rotational speed. - SLR Ch. 683

[2] It will boost its power depending on the user's Will.

『Oho. Its power is amplified by several multiples based on the release of one’s will…!』

[3] Even the imperfect Bright Tai Chi Pangu Sword could already wreak havoc to the Tower's System and even breaking free of it, where System is basically the Law of Causality itself.

Yeon-woo was shocked again. Divine iron, law of causality, and the system—these all referred to the same thing? He hadn’t known the law of causality that bound the beings on the ninety-eighth floor also applied to players as well. ‘No. I suppose it’s obvious, in a way.’ - SLR Ch. 490

Soon, the world assimilated with the power and began to shake. [An unknown force wants to break free from the constraints of the system!] [Warning! An enormous amount of information is flowing out. The system cannot process properly. System lag is occurring.] [Warning! The computation of the massive amount of information is slowing the system down. The system may soon shut down.]

[Warning! An unknown force is wreaking havoc on the entire system!] [The control unit has stopped operating!] Throughout all this, Yeon-woo realized that this was the true Bright Tai Chi Pangu Sword.

[All functions supporting the seventy-seventh floor have been paralyzed.] [The stage is collapsing.] The world full of light and darkness was crumbling. Like how mixing white and black paints would turn the paint’s color gray, the entire stage was bending, refracting, and distorting. The space was becoming increasingly gray. The Tower’s system had been disrupted. Then, once all information processing functions such as comparison, calculation, and judgment were forcefully stopped, Allforone’s rapid movements also stopped. - SLR Ch. 683

[4] Bright Tai Chi Pangu Sword mixed two opposing forces, which is Yin and Yang that is a Duality, that tried to change the world's laws.

This was the Bright Tai Chi Pangu Sword. The two opposing forces that tried to change the world’s laws were intertwined and constantly returning to each other, Tai Chi. As a blessing of mixed, opposing wills, its shape was reminiscent of the basic material for the creation of the universe, an egg from which a giant was born, Pangu. And the unfolding shape was reminiscent of a sword. - SLR Ch. 683

[4.1] It also had to be known that by world's laws/Laws of the Worlds/also known as the Law of Nature, it refers to Idea. So basically, changing the world's laws is the act to change the Idea.

In contrast to his appearance, however, there was something overwhelming about him. Idea, the law of the world, surrounded him. Despite that, Changsun had never seen or heard about such a being. - DTR Ch. 286

[4.2] Proof for Duality.

The three stages of heaven, earth, and being were derived from the duality of yin and yang, leading to the classical elements, then the five elements. From there, the six pairs of yin and yang arose, leading to the seven stars and eight trigrams. Then, the perfection of the nine expedient means developed into the ten paramitas. The inevitable return of all worldly affairs back to the duality of yin and yang was a topic that Yeon-woo had listened to the Martial King speak about endlessly.

『The Five Elements and the Eight Trigrams are branches of study created to discuss and understand the laws of the world. However, the content and details of these branches of study are bound to change. That’s probably why you’ve faced so many ups and downs in developing Sword Thunder. For example, a difference in interpretation or a waste of energy efficiency may have arisen without you even realizing it.』 - SLR Ch. 537

^ even the Five Elements and Eight Trigrams that were derived from the duality of Yin-Yang could already be used to understand the Laws of The World.

The <Supreme Light> expanded universes and brought knowledge and wisdom to each civilization to develop conscious beings, while the <Dull Darkness> embodied the universes themselves, giving conscious beings space to act in. Although it seemed at first glance as if light and darkness would fight, they did not; rather, they meshed with each other, making up the laws of universes and worlds.

However, the <Supreme Light> and <Dull Darkness> were just entities in charge of ‘stages’ and ‘characters’. They did not provide those characters with rules to guide them in leading their lives. That was why there was an entity beside the two dualistic powers that adjusted those rules as the occasion demanded. - DTR Ch. 286

^ mention of Dualistic Powers.

This was because the Black King’s traces remained all over the universe. From the unconsciousness of all creatures to the cycle of the soul… death, darkness, dreams, soul, winter, evil, destruction, so on and so forth. The negative concepts that made up the world were all part of the ‘Black King’. The Black King was those negative concepts. ‘If you juxtapose the Black King with the Heavenly Demon, a dualism could be seen… ’ -SLR Ch. 698

^ the Black King acts as the Yin of the dualism, while the Heavenly Demon acts as the Yang.

[5] Perfected Bright Tai Chi Pangu Sword

However, the eighth extreme sword thunder strike did not only contain the principles of the Eight Extremes of Sword Thunder. It also contained the principles of the Bright Tai Chi Pangu Sword. It was what Yeon-woo utilized when he tore down the Tower, and he had completed it after repeating countless mistakes in the darkness.

From the movement, the Martial king saw another universe within. Life and death. Positive and negative. Light and darkness. Fire and water. Above and below. Left and right… He saw opposite properties, like two sides of a coin, but they were also inseparable. Tai Chi was the mixing of two opposing forces and turning them around, and Bright Pangu was the act of breaking free from this cycle.

^ Contained Dualistic powers and even breaking free from them.

The realization of the Bright Tai Chi Pangu Sword started from there. One must throw away the preconceived notions one had and escape from the overarching providence by untangling oneself from the superstructure.

However, despite his achievements and realization, the Martial King had not been able to obtain the Bright Tai Chi Pangu Sword until the end because his very existence was completely entangled in providence. It was a limitation that one had since birth, and it was also a weakness that every existence possessed. - SLR SS Ch. 24

^ One who could obtain and use Bright Tai Chi Pangu Sword must throw away their preconceived notion they had and escape from providence/fate or to say, to be independent from fate as they untangle themselves from providence itself.

In conclusion :
1. Law Manipulation that could affect duality of Yin and Yang, and Conceptual Manipulation type 1;Alteration.
2. Causality Manipulation
3. Atleast Resistance to Fate Manipulation, and possibly Acausality type 4 via being unbound by Laws and Fate, where as the technique itself is breaking free from the system's constraints because of its very own principle that the users must realize, and that's one of the basic requirement for one to use the technique.

Rikimarox2 · Aug 4, 2024

Pedonar said:
Some wank him to tier 1-A possibly 0 for his true form

It comes from stuff like the whole layered dimensions and transcending time and space, and all that jazz. The problem is, the former does not really qualify, since it isn't actual dimensional transcendence that the Wiki usually indexes. As for the latter, if we get like pristine statements of a place actually transcending time and space, being above it and being formless, not being limited by time and space and dimensions in a way that implies superiority, etc... really any good statement showcasing an actual usage of being superior to time and space, then maaaaybe we can get Low 1-A. Since, well, the standards have changed quite a bit and it's easier to get Low 1-A.

Problem is that it's been forever since I read the novel, and haven't picked it up in forever. There might be statements, i don't quite recall good statements, but the verse is more than likely to just peak at Low 1-C.

Rikimarox2 · Sep 8, 2024

Alright I'm kind of starting to reread the series (Reading SLR from the beginning again due to kind of forgetting everything), and I got a few questions;

Didn't we have quite a few statements about Emperors and other beings transcending time and space, and are actually beyond it? Just a few statements of these actually qualify for Low 1-A, iirc.

Lysairth · Sep 10, 2024

Rikimarox2 said:
Alright I'm kind of starting to reread the series (Reading SLR from the beginning again due to kind of forgetting everything), and I got a few questions;

Same here

Rikimarox2 said:
Didn't we have quite a few statements about Emperors and other beings transcending time and space, and are actually beyond it? Just a few statements of these actually qualify for Low 1-A, iirc.

That might be the case if they actually see them as an irrelevantly tiny thing, or the infinite dimension thingy is an actual hierarchical dimensions instead of pocket dimensions.

Because as far as the novel has shown, Emperors transcend Space-Time in the sense of 4D Space-Time, not so superior like L1A & 1A thingy whatsoever. You might want to take a look at the case of Jeong-Woo, where he see 4D Spatial Dimension (Group Subconscious) just like how 3D being perceive the 3D World, meaning that they're approximately 4D in terms of existence.

But anyway, I kinda forgot about it, but rather than HDE, Emperors feats of transcending Space-Time seems more suited to be classified as BDE, with how they're said to be above and independent of all universes, which should mean they aren't bound by Eros and Nyx. And how they'd be unaffected by Wheel's rewinding because of it too.

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