Second Life Ranker Discussion Thread

[Lysairth]

A quick question

“Right. Mortals, transcendents… Gods, demons, dragons, giants… Any being that has a ‘soul’ is able to learn knowledge. They can gain enlightenment and twist the already existing laws to create new laws. And all these are only possible where light reaches.”

Among the infinite Wordlines, there were no more than five Emperors, and <Deus Ex Machina> was one of them.<Deus Ex Machina> was basically going to give Chang-Sun all the fundamental elements, such as laws and principles, that composed a concept. In other words, it meant he was giving another Divine Rank to a Celestial…!

From that statements, it can be deduced that Laws and Principles are something that is even more fundamental than that of a concept. So I have a question, with a case like this :

Let's take an example of the Transcendents whose domain/concept is of death, to twist the already existing law of death is equal to altering the first concept of Death, which is the part of the Black King itself who is known as a CM 1 user.

So, would those Transcendents gain Law Manipulation with Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 (Alteration) as a sub-ability from that?

 

[Lysairth]

What make it type 1?

For Conceptual Gods, there is one debatable reason for CM 1, and that is because they were created by the leftover fragments of powers from the fight between the 2 known users of CM 1 which is The Heavenly Demon and The Black King. There are two opinions on this thing though, with one side agreeing to it while the other is disagreeing with it, so it goes with the rating of 'Likely CM1' in my opinion.

For Elder Gods, it's because they predates reality and remains unaffected by it's destruction iirc, idk for sure but it can go with the same rating as the Conceptual Gods or become valid with enough context, which I haven't seen or collected yet.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

For Conceptual Gods, there is one debatable reason for CM 1, and that is because they were created by the leftover fragments of powers from the fight between the 2 known users of CM 1 which is The Heavenly Demon and The Black King.

Need more info here, where they created from them or by them? or can you show the scan?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

From that statements, it can be deduced that Laws and Principles are something that is even more fundamental than that of a concept. So I have a question, with a case like this :

Let's take an example of the Transcendents whose domain/concept is of death, to twist the already existing law of death is equal to altering the first concept of Death, which is the part of the Black King itself who is known as a CM 1 user.

Maybe, what type of concept They’re talking about here?

So, would those Transcendents gain Law Manipulation with Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 (Alteration) as a sub-ability from that?

Agree

 

[Lysairth]

Need more info here, where they created from them or by them? or can you show the scan?

It was from these statements, with the Light aka The Heavenly Demon reacting with the emptiness and nothingness, which refers to the Black King itself.

'Conceptual gods came into being when the first light shone and the universe was
created… ’ The creation of the universe could be understood as a process that began when light, a foreign substance, exploded into nothingness and emptiness.

As pieces of nothingness and emptiness reacted with the light, their properties
changed little by little. As actions and changes occurred, these became the
foundation for the birth of godly beings. These beings had undeveloped consciousnesses and primitive appearances, but they also had the power to peer into multiple universes and dimensions. These beings became known as conceptual gods or elder gods.

Most of these beings didn’t have desires, so even though they existed, it was almost like they didn’t. These gods usually settled in one part of the universe and became the elements of Ideas. On the other hand, the elder gods observed the changes in the universe and did not intervene.

The conceptual god called Mother Earth had risen from fragments of nothingness
and emptiness, and the original form of such fragments was the Black King.

The <Supreme Light> expanded universes and brought knowledge and wisdom to each civilization to develop conscious beings, while the <Dull Darkness> embodied the universes themselves, giving conscious beings space to act in. Although it seemed at first glance as if light and darkness would fight, they did not; rather, they meshed with each other, making up the laws of universes and worlds.

So it should be from them.

 

[Lysairth]

what type of concept They’re talking about here?

The concept aka the domains of the Transcendents, which is the thing they used to control their respected Laws. Such as the Gods of Death who rule upon Death, Gods of Creation who rule upon Creation, etc. Cmiiw.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

So, none of them is Nothingness or emptiness?

That's sound like type 2 considering they come into being after the universe was created, unless their conceptual power is equal to the heavenly demon or Black King.

 

[Lysairth]

So, none of them is Nothingness or emptiness?

Nope, they were only made from fragments of nothingness, not the nothingness itself.

That's sound like type 2 considering they come into being after the universe was created, unless their conceptual power is equal to the heavenly demon or Black King.

And that's precisely why it is debatable, cuz most Conceptual Gods aren't capable of contending with either the Black King or The Heavenly Demon.

The main reason for it being debatable is because they're part of the Ideas, which is the fundamental laws and concepts that built up the reality, with the Ideas having a high chance of being independent of the reality with more context and statements, which haven't yet to be directly mentioned or I just haven't found it.

 

[Lysairth]

And now that I think about it, a question popped up in my mind, what exactly is an Idea/Ideas?

From Second Life Ranker and Divine Twilight's Return's narration, Ideas are something that is comprised of all Conceptual Gods, being Small Cogwheels and Large Cogwheels that serve as the fundamental laws, principles, and concepts that made up the reality.

But there is also this statement, that said that <The Heavenly Demon> is the Idea itself. Yet there is a statement of <Deus Ex Machina> being surrounded by Idea that is stated to be the law of the world, and yet having to "Look Up" to see <The Heavenly Demon> which is also stated to be the Idea itself. So what kind of thing Ideas/Idea actually are? Are they the same thing or not?

 

[donegbe]

What make it type 1?

they predate the universe, are fragments of the black king

 

[donegbe]

And now that I think about it, a question popped up in my mind, what exactly is an Idea/Ideas?

From Second Life Ranker and Divine Twilight's Return's narration, Ideas are something that is comprised of all Conceptual Gods, being Small Cogwheels and Large Cogwheels that serve as the fundamental laws, principles, and concepts that made up the reality.

But there is also this statement, that said that <The Heavenly Demon> is the Idea itself. Yet there is a statement of <Deus Ex Machina> being surrounded by Idea that is stated to be the law of the world, and yet having to "Look Up" to see <The Heavenly Demon> which is also stated to be the Idea itself. So what kind of thing Ideas/Idea actually are? Are they the same thing or not?

take it on context. Personally, I won't try to generalize it except for HD.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

And now that I think about it, a question popped up in my mind, what exactly is an Idea/Ideas?

From Second Life Ranker and Divine Twilight's Return's narration, Ideas are something that is comprised of all Conceptual Gods, being Small Cogwheels and Large Cogwheels that serve as the fundamental laws, principles, and concepts that made up the reality.

But there is also this statement, that said that <The Heavenly Demon> is the Idea itself. Yet there is a statement of <Deus Ex Machina> being surrounded by Idea that is stated to be the law of the world, and yet having to "Look Up" to see <The Heavenly Demon> which is also stated to be the Idea itself. So what kind of thing Ideas/Idea actually are? Are they the same thing or not?

concept/law hax

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

they predate the universe, are fragments of the black king

But they come to existence after the begining of the universe, that's type 2 unless they're equal to the power of Nothingness emptiness.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Even if you arrived after the universe, that doesn't necessarily disqualify you from type 1. All you need is just some statements that even if the things of that concept disappeared, the concept would exist. Or if the universe's existence is different from ours (ie say the concept existed, but the things of that concept still didn't exist), etc...

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Even if you arrived after the universe, that doesn't necessarily disqualify you from type 1. All you need is just some statements that even if the things of that concept disappeared, the concept would exist. Or if the universe's existence is different from ours (ie say the concept existed, but the things of that concept still didn't exist), etc...

Can you post a CRT to make this clear?

 

[Lysairth]

With The Tower's System being a causality system/laws of causality that binds all things in general since it is just another name of Laws of Causality, as stated by The Heavenly Demon. Next, Transcendents are said to be an Acausality type 4 beings with them being free from the constraints of the system once they passed the stage of <Exuviation>, which is a path one should took before going to <Transcendence>.

Here comes the question, Transcendents are Acausality type 4 beings, yet they could only stay in the Heavenly World (98th floor beyond the 1-97th floor) because of the different causality system level that was implied to them. So, is it safe to assume that the causality system of Heavenly World are superior than those of the Lower World? Since the lower world's Causality system looked pretty muchly like general Causality system that worked everywhere, while the Heavenly World's one are capable of binding even the Transcendents to Law of Causality.

Next, even though they're called Transcendents, they themselves said that their <Transcendence> wasn't <True Transcendence> since they haven't completely escaped the laws of causality aka being completely independent of causality, unlike the Emperors.

The Emperors are beings who existed beyond the Laws of The Worlds, Worldlines, etc. And was also said to be completely free and independent of causality as they exist outside and beyond of it, with them being almost impossible to interact. Hence, it seems plausible for the Emperors to be given Acausality type 5 as the benefit of their physiology.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and do share your opinion on this one

 

[Lysairth]

i didnt even know return of the shattered constellation was the sequel for slr.

Well, it's mentioned in the ending of Second Life Ranker's novel 1st Side Story, while the manhwa itself has some easter egg related to Second Life Ranker

 

[Lysairth]

Are these feats enough for BDE type 2?

Just as Mother Earth had many
names, the Black King did as well. But most of them were vague metaphors: Great Crevice, Egg of Chaos, Endless Whirlpool, the One in the Boiling Abyss. None actually provided a real identity.
It was because he had already existed even before the universes and dimensions were born. He wasn’t tied to space and time and transcended everything. He was considered blind because he could see beyond seeing. He was called “dull” because he could think beyond thinking. He was an unpredictable being even to the gods and demons and the truth-seeking dragons. It was no exaggeration to call him the void that existed before the universe began. -SLR Ch. 490

The ability of time itself was removed from the Black King. The Black King was
emptiness that had existed before the creation of the universe. He represented the condition of being “paused,” when the concept of time didn’t exist. Considering how time was a moving concept, it was the direct opposite of The Black King. -SLR Ch. 656

 

[Rikimarox2]

BDE Type 2 standards got changed iirc, and you need to be like at least low 1-C in order to properly gain it.

So, if we consider the whole "the universe's are just dreams of the Black King", then he can qualify for BDE2. If we don't, then he doesn't qualify.

 

[Lysairth]

BDE Type 2 standards got changed iirc, and you need to be like at least low 1-C in order to properly gain it.

So, if we consider the whole "the universe's are just dreams of the Black King", then he can qualify for BDE2. If we don't, then he doesn't qualify.

I just checked it, and guess it won't be applicable then, considering that the Nil Domain aren't even possible to be 4th Dimensional Space that could qualify for L1C thing since it lacked Time and Space.

Tho it seems possible for BDE type 1.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Most definitely fits for type 1, dude kinda fits all the criteria.

 

[donegbe]

With The Tower's System being a causality system/laws of causality that binds all things in general since it is just another name of Laws of Causality, as stated by The Heavenly Demon. Next, Transcendents are said to be an Acausality type 4 beings with them being free from the constraints of the system once they passed the stage of <Exuviation>, which is a path one should took before going to <Transcendence>.

Here comes the question, Transcendents are Acausality type 4 beings, yet they could only stay in the Heavenly World (98th floor beyond the 1-97th floor) because of the different causality system level that was implied to them. So, is it safe to assume that the causality system of Heavenly World are superior than those of the Lower World? Since the lower world's Causality system looked pretty muchly like general Causality system that worked everywhere, while the Heavenly World's one are capable of binding even the Transcendents to Law of Causality.

Next, even though they're called Transcendents, they themselves said that their <Transcendence> wasn't <True Transcendence> since they haven't completely escaped the laws of causality aka being completely independent of causality, unlike the Emperors.

The Emperors are beings who existed beyond the Laws of The Worlds, Worldlines, etc. And was also said to be completely free and independent of causality as they exist outside and beyond of it, with them being almost impossible to interact. Hence, it seems plausible for the Emperors to be given Acausality type 5 as the benefit of their physiology.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and do share your opinion on this one

I do agree with this

 

[Lysairth]

Misunderstood some thing back then by thinking that Nihil = Nil Domain = Outer Universe, when it should've been Nihil ≠ Nil Domain ≠ Outer Universe. So here's the summary of the actual things :

• Nihil = Emptiness/Void beyond the universe, pretty muchly the common things between each Worldlines. Nihil is such a thing that it's true to it's name as it's so empty it doesn't even have Space and Time.

Spoiler: Nihil

Some might call Mephistopheles the observer of the many worldlines in <Nihil>, where time and space didn’t exist, but they didn’t know anything. -DTR Ch.176

In the end, the entire Instance Dungeon was wiped from existence leaving only black nothingness behind. It was nihil itself, which was known to exist beyond the universe. -DTR Ch. 187

<Nihil> was a pathway that allowed Outer Celestials to come into contact with Eros, and <Darkness> was a constituent of <Nihil>. Since <Darkness> was also <Dull Darkness>’ power, Outer Celestials could use it to activate their Authorities. However, they couldn’t influence it because it was the root of their existence. -DTR Ch. 459

And judging by their description alone, it could be denoted that Nihil is pretty muchly like Nil Domain, the borderline.

• Nil Domain = Border that separated Inner Universe and Outer Universe.

Spoiler: Nil Domain

The Nil Domain. The end of all Worldlines. The Great Universe’s shell... the border that separated the inner and outer universes. -DTR Ch. 428

This one is the thing that I confused with the Outer Universe back then.

• Outer Universe = Universe beyond Nil Domain, where it contained <Nihil>, <Abyss>, <Darkness>, etc. It's also filled with Darkness and Emptiness which is represented by those things. Universe so chaotic and disorderly where Light didn't flow.

Spoiler: Outer Universe

The inner universe was influenced by the will of <Supreme Light>, becoming the ordered part of the universe. On the other hand, the outer universe was where <Supreme Light> could not reach, and chaos continued to run rampant. -DTR Ch. 322

Anyway, here is another thing. Eros (Inner Universe) and Nox (Outer Universe) are symbolized with Tree and Soil or Egg yolk and Egg White. With the continuous branching and growth of Worldlines that spanned infinitely, the Outer Universe continue to recede, though it would still be in the far future as Outer Universe is larger than the Inner Universe as a whole.

Spoiler: Eros and Nox

"This firmament library spans the realm of 'Idea' (εἶδος).”

“This Idea, the essence of all forms and the temple of truth, is located at the back of the entire macrocosm, but is located at the top and encompasses the entire outer universe."

Changseon just quietly listened to what <Deus Ex Machina> said.

Since he was also pursuing spiritual knowledge, he had basic knowledge and did not have much difficulty understanding it.

"And the realms of Eros and Nox are now becoming unclear as time goes by. Do you know why?"

"Isn't it because Eros keeps growing?"

"Right.

"As world lines continue to differentiate, infinite parallel universes and multiverses are filling Nox's domain." -DTR Ch. 547

"It is the world tree."

"Eros was symbolized to make it easier to understand the world we live in."

The moment Changseon saw it, he could easily understand its structure.

As said in <Deus Ex Machina>, the world tree was Eros. The root is Idea. The stem is the Changgong Library. The branches were a multiverse and the leaves were a parallel universe that differentiated from there. -DTR Ch. 547

Idk what would that give, especially for the Idea which is further explained as something that exist at the back of the entire macrocosm and simultaneously being at the top and encompasses even the outer universe as it's the essence of all forms.

 

[Lysairth]

Maybe the author took reference of this?

Eidos - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Considering that it's pretty muchly fitting with how Idea are being described throughout the story.

 

[Highness]

May I ask what tier Cha Yeon-Woo should be in, because I've only read 412 chapters of his novel?

 

[Lysairth]

May I ask what tier Cha Yeon-Woo should be in, because I've only read 412 chapters of his novel?

At the end of the novel, he would be tier 2B from his AP that is scaled with the Black King, and 2C in terms of Destructive Capability.

 

[Lysairth]

Ideas = Concept type 1, Justification :

In this verse, it applied a particularly known theory, and that is Plato's Theory of Forms. And how do we know that? It's simply by correlating it with the characteristics shown by the things itself. Such as :

1. The Ideal and The Phenomena / The Perfect Reality and The Physical World

Argh! Mother Earth was overcome with excruciating pain and screamed. 『Stop! I said stop! If you continue, the World Tree will be ruined! Even your natural laws…
the divine providence of your physical world will be destroyed! Don’t you know this? And yet, you wish to continue?』-SLR Ch. 585

By forcing Mother Earth from the World Tree, it was inevitable that part of the World Tree would be torn off since she was in the process of assimilating with it. Yeon-woo wasn’t sure he could rip off only the infected parts, and if he continued, he might accidentally rip off the parts of the World Tree that weren’t infected. This meant that he might damage the Ideas. Since the natural laws were the basis for the existence of divine beings, they naturally had a strong attachment to the World Tree. Apart from this, damaging the World Tree would mean damaging the physical world, so it was something that even the gods avoided. No matter how crazy the gods were and no matter how severe their conflicts, they still avoided affecting the Ideas. - SLR Ch. 585

2. Ideas exist beyond Space and Time

Same as the reasoning below and above, both World Tree and River of Souls are stated to be beyond both Space and Time, and The Realm of Ideas should also scale with it.

3. Ideas are many in number / plural

I don't think I have to explain this one, since I've discussed it a while ago and still on this same page, about Ideas and Idea.

4. Soul of all beings, comes from the Realm of Ideas of which they shared memories or aka Consciousness from the River of Souls / Group Subconscious, where it existed beneath The World Tree that existed in The Realm of Ideas.

There were things all living things could identify and connect to regardless of the environment they grew up in. Everyone was born with an instinctive way of reacting to things. There was a shared space where images and symbols manifested even before birth, and all living things were connected to this space beyond time and space. - SLR Ch. 535

「What you’ve seen is part of the group subconscious, the birthplace where all souls are born and where they return after they are destroyed. Additionally, it’s the root of all truth and laws. It’s like a river where fish, which are the souls, live. It’s always flowing and affecting souls. The reason why all living beings have instincts and can think is that this river exists.」 「No. It’s different. Reincarnation begins in Sumeru. It is a cycle that allows souls to continue existing as part of a branch of the world tree. On the other hand, this is more like the earth that the roots of the world tree touch. This is on the very bottom of the universe.」- SLR Ch. 535

5. Ideas are also independent of their replica, on which they are told to be the root that is indirectly stated to be independent of the things they governed with.

The World Tree that managed the system of reincarnation was rooted here. Souls that wanted to reincarnate were absorbed into fruits and when the fruits were matured, they fell into the river and joined the other souls. This place was the original form of collective unconscious that all living forms possessed. Moreover, this was the root of the present universe with the concepts of dreams and wheel now gone. - SLR Ch. 797

Can't quite remember the feats but it's pretty much like how World Tree and River of Souls are beyond space and time, and those two are being contained by the Realm of Ideas.


So, yeah. Anybody who are capable of affecting the ideas should reasonably given with CM type 1 & type 2 as their abilities. E.g. of who would got it :

1. The Emperors : CM 1 (Alteration & Destruction) & CM 2 of All Existing Concepts (Alteration and Destruction)

2. 5th Step Dragons & Above : CM 1 (Alteration) & CM 2 of All Existing Concepts (A little NLF tbh)

3. Transcendents are arguably able to have those as well, based on this one statement.

Since the natural laws were the basis for the existence of divine beings, they naturally had a strong attachment to the World Tree. Apart from this, damaging the World Tree would mean damaging the physical world, so it was something that even the gods avoided. No matter how crazy the gods were and no matter how severe their conflicts, they still avoided affecting the Ideas.

That should be a solid reasoning for CM 1 in Sa Doyeon's verse, though the feats are quite incomplete due to how scattered they are, or the feats are simply being underlined by another feats that I've forgotten and overlooked. Anw, share your thoughts on this one