"Ares! Downgrade This Verse, and My Life is Yours!" ⌈GoW Downgrades, Part 1/???⌋

Tony_di_bugalu · May 6, 2024

Deagonx said:
If something knocks you back and causes you to roar and pain, by what measure are we claiming they are "resisting it?" Yes, it is obviously true that this is a "lack of absolute immunity," but the "lack of absolute immunity" is not the point being made, it is not the argument for why the resistance should be removed. The argument is that the lightning affects him in the exact manner we would expect it to affect him if he didn't have resistance.

So basically you are saying that Zeus getting hit back with his own attack (lightning bolts which power null, disable magic and probably do more shit I'm unaware of) and not getting affected by all that beyond some damage is not resistance?

No, the point I'm making is that Zeus, Hades and likely anyone else who got hit by their own powers back and didn't get haxed to death should obviously have resistance towards said abilities.

In your case you seem to think that getting harmed but not absolutely ****** up by said abilities isn't ground for a resistance, which again is something we don't do.

Deagonx said:
Because the very existence of the Quick Time Event entails the fact that he does not have this resistance. If he did, you wouldn't need to react quickly. Nothing would happen to him anyways.

Once again, that's a not canonical, not relevant, ending. The existence of the QTE is to show what happens if you as a player suck ass at pressing some buttons, not what happens to the character in the story. The character story-wise straight up overpowers the amulet's powers and goes on with his journe, the player may die a few times but that's irrelevant for the story.

Deagonx said:
If you include inflammatory remarks like this in future comments, I am simply going to delete them.

I don't think pointing the obvious is inflammatory but very well. I don't want to be censured for now.

DaReaperMan · May 6, 2024

Deagonx said:
The basic concept of a video game involves thing occurring in various ways, otherwise it'd just be a movie. If a VN has a "bad ending" that shows how something in the verse works mechanically, the fact that the bad ending is not the canonical ending doesn't mean that the information provided within it about mechanics is false or inapplicable.

Similarly, if Kratos uses a certain ability on an opponent, and they resist the ability, but the "canonical" version of the fight didn't involve him using that ability on that opponent at all, we wouldn't declare that we have no applicable information about whether or not they can resist that ability. We'd say that we know that they can.

In this case, the game spells out the consequence of failing to react quickly enough to this ability. It instantly kills Kratos.

That Visual Novel most likely doesn't have approximately one shit ton of sequels. That's the difference, a bad ending can be "Alternate Universe"(like Fate) or some other explanation, if you desire to shout and yell "But this happened!" Then tell me why Kratos didn't have his 50th trip to the underworld and back then? That's right, it didn't happen, so we didn't see it.

Tony_di_bugalu · May 6, 2024

CurrySenpai said:
What makes these QTEs “not canon” they are something that occurs in game so how do you verifiably declare it non canon.

Did you fail a QTE and the game ended, having to start a new game cycle with that failed QTE as the intended ending of the story? Well, obviously not. The story is set in stone as it is a game. The story doesn't change just because you, me, deagon or anyone for that matter sucks at playing and dies several times in a QTE.

Now, if it was something like those 1 live games that end up the moment you **** up then you may have ground to argue that but as it stands you can't use some "skill issue" to disprove how a story goes.

CurrySenpai · May 6, 2024

Tony_di_bugalu said:
Did you fail a QTE and the game ended, having to start a new game cycle with that failed QTE as the intended ending of the story? Well, obviously not. The story is set in stone as it is a game. The story doesn't change just because you, me, deagon or anyone for that matter sucks at playing and dies several times in a QTE.

Now, if it was something like those 1 live games that end up the moment you **** up then you may have ground to argue that but as it stands you can't use some "skill issue" to disprove how a story goes.

This makes 0 sense, and I don’t think anyone should be applying this to any game we scale for this matter.

Obviously games do not end when you fail a QTE, this much is true, but just because the game wants to succeed doesn’t mean the result for failure is non-canon. Sure, the ending it provides isn’t, but if the game explicitly makes me do a QTE to push back say a lightning strike and my character has to do that then I don’t think resisted it. Game devs don’t just throw this in for ***** and giggles, if Kratos really resisted these abilities you claim he does then a QTE with the fail result being dying or getting damaged wouldn’t be at all necessary.

Just because the failure didn’t happen, doesn’t mean the actual event itself didn’t so like I don’t get this line of reasoning.

DaReaperMan · May 6, 2024

CurrySenpai said:
This makes 0 sense, and I don’t think anyone should be applying this to any game we scale for this matter.

Obviously games do not end when you fail a QTE, this much is true, but just because the game wants to succeed doesn’t mean the result for failure is non-canon. Sure, the ending it provides isn’t, but if the game explicitly makes me do a QTE to push back say a lightning strike and my character has to do that then I don’t think resisted it. Game devs don’t just throw this in for ***** and giggles, if Kratos really resisted these abilities you claim he does then a QTE with the fail result being dying or getting damaged wouldn’t be at all necessary.

Just because the failure didn’t happen, doesn’t mean the actual event itself didn’t so like I don’t get this line of reasoning.

Okay, so scale everyone to everyone in a MOBA or some other MMO like Fortnite or WoW and watch the circular scaling and anti-feats flow in because "well it COULD happen!"

If you really want to start telling me "Why not" when the entire storypoint of the cutscene moving on is literally that Kratos didn't get bodied by it, I don't know what to tell you other then "If you apply this to every verse scaling becomes 50x more of a headache"

Tony_di_bugalu · May 6, 2024

CurrySenpai said:
This makes 0 sense, and I don’t think anyone should be applying this to any game we scale for this matter.

I don't think you are understanding. But regardless, we don't do things but how you think, we do them by how they actually are.

CurrySenpai said:
Obviously games do not end when you fail a QTE, this much is true, but just because the game wants to succeed doesn’t mean the result for failure is non-canon. Sure, the ending it provides isn’t, but if the game explicitly makes me do a QTE to push back say a lightning strike and my character has to do that then I don’t think resisted it. Game devs don’t just throw this in for ***** and giggles, if Kratos really resisted these abilities you claim he does then a QTE with the fail result being dying or getting damaged wouldn’t be at all necessary.

By this logic kratos dies right then and there. GoW 1 never happens, nor does 2, 3, 2018 and ragnarok. Doesn't make sense, does it? The game, the story only has 1 single canonical route, a single way forward and a single ending. All that involves Kratos overpowering the amulet and it's haxes.

CurrySenpai said:
Just because the failure didn’t happen, doesn’t mean the actual event itself didn’t so like I don’t get this line of reasoning.

Read the above.

Deagonx · May 6, 2024

Tony_di_bugalu said:
So basically you are saying that Zeus getting hit back with his own attack (lightning bolts which power null, disable magic and probably do more shit I'm unaware of) and not getting affected by all that beyond some damage is not resistance?

No, the point I'm making is that Zeus, Hades and likely anyone else who got hit by their own powers back and didn't get haxed to death should obviously have resistance towards said abilities.

In your case you seem to think that getting harmed but not absolutely ****** up by said abilities isn't ground for a resistance, which again is something we don't do.

These instances of Zeus being staggered and damaged by his own lightning are currently the justifications for his "resistance." If you're proposing that something more than damage and being staggered should've happened to Zeus had he not had the resistance, you'd need to justify that. But as far as I can recall, Kratos doesn't lose the ability to use magic if he gets hit by the bolts during that boss fight.

Even if we said that Zeus is resisting the non-damage/stagger related effects of his own lightning attacks, this would -- at best -- be evidence of him having a resistance to those effects. It would not support the broader assessment that all gods inherently can resist the magic of their own attacks. Especially since they are still taking damage as you would expect them to.

Tony_di_bugalu said:
Once again, that's a not canonical, not relevant, ending. The existence of the QTE is to show what happens if you as a player suck ass at pressing some buttons, not what happens to the character in the story. The character story-wise straight up overpowers the amulet's powers and goes on with his journe, the player may die a few times but that's irrelevant for the story.

I'm aware, but this does not refute my previously stated response. The game makes it clear what would happen if you do fail. The fact that Kratos didn't canonically fail does not mean that the alternative outcome is not an accurate reflection of how the ability would have affected Kratos. There's no logical error being committed here.

DaReaperMan said:
That Visual Novel most likely doesn't have approximately one shit ton of sequels. That's the difference, a bad ending can be "Alternate Universe"(like Fate) or some other explanation, if you desire to shout and yell "But this happened!" Then tell me why Kratos didn't have his 50th trip to the underworld and back then? That's right, it didn't happen, so we didn't see it.

I'm aware that it didn't happen, this is not an argument against what I am saying. The fact that the game ends when you die doesn't create any issue for what I am saying. The game shows that the ability can and will kill Kratos. Lots of things in the game can kill Kratos. We do not conclude that none of that is usable for evidence because "Kratos did not canonically die at that point in the story."

CurrySenpai · May 6, 2024

DaReaperMan said:
Okay, so scale everyone to everyone in a MOBA or some other MMO like Fortnite or WoW and watch the circular scaling and anti-feats flow in because "well it COULD happen!"

I’m talking about QTEs not “what if scenarios” in MOBAs or MMOs, to my knowledge neither of these have this kind of scaling.

Besides as the resident fortnite supporter scaling is already pretty circular except for story relevant characters although that’s a result of its content.

I think a good example of what I’m trying to show is through . it’s full of QTEs but just because you succeed the QTEs doesn’t mean that you can suddenly resist what occurs

DaReaperMan · May 6, 2024

CurrySenpai said:
I’m talking about QTEs not “what if scenarios” in MOBAs or MMOs, to my knowledge neither of these have this kind of scaling.

I'm not talking what-if scenarios. I'm talking gameplay Curry. Using Warcraft as my example with player characters, we could scale everyone notabke in the verse to 5-B because all racial leaders can fight the same numbers as raid bosses like Deathwing and Kil'jaeden and get away with it...

But that makes 0 sense in lore(scaling Sylvanas to Baine Bloodhoof, to name an example... the same Baine Bloodhoof who could snap her arm like a twig.)

Sounds familiar, right? An event that "could" happen that makes 0 sense in the story, hm...

CurrySenpai said:
Besides as the resident fortnite supporter scaling is already pretty circular except for story relevant characters although that’s a result of its content.

I think a good example of what I’m trying to show is through . it’s full of QTEs but just because you succeed the QTEs doesn’t mean that you can suddenly resist what occurs

Does the Story move on despite the failed QTE? If the answer is yes, it is as canon as the successful QTE. If the answer is no then the successful QTE is the sole canon. God of War Ascension goes to a game over screen if you fail that QTE. The failure is not canon.

Some verses like Asura's wrath have QTEs you are made to fail, those are canon and undeniably so.

Tony_di_bugalu · May 6, 2024

Deagonx said:
These instances of Zeus being staggered and damaged by his own lightning are currently the justifications for his "resistance." If you're proposing that something more than damage and being staggered should've happened to Zeus had he not had the resistance, you'd need to justify that.

The lightning is stated to do the stuff I mentioned plus some more unknown to me afaik. Him getting hit and not getting haxed is already the justification.

Your stance would be correct if instead of just getting "hurt and staggered" Zeus was straight up unable to use his magic.

Deagonx said:
But as far as I can recall, Kratos doesn't lose the ability to use magic if he gets hit by the bolts during that boss fight.

well damn, now you know why he has resistances too

Deagonx said:
Even if we said that Zeus is resisting the non-damage/stagger related effects of his own lightning attacks, this would -- at best -- be evidence of him having a resistance to those effects. It would not support the broader assessment that all gods inherently can resist the magic of their own attacks. Especially since they are still taking damage as you would expect them to.

Did zeus lose his powers or only got staggered? First one is evidence of your argument, second one isn't.

The logic still goes with every boss that had the same attack reflected back to them. They just got harmed, staggered, dazzed, not soul ******, mind destroyed or power nulled. That is a textbook resistance.

Just to make it clear: taking damage =/= getting haxed

Deagonx said:
I'm aware, but this does not refute my previously stated response. The game makes it clear what would happen if you do fail. The fact that Kratos didn't canonically fail does not mean that the alternative outcome is not an accurate reflection of how the ability would have affected Kratos. There's no logical error being committed here.

Did it happen then? Did kratos ******* died right then and there and the rest of the series never happend? No, duh. Why? Because canonically he resisted the effects of the amulet and went on with his day.

The fact that you think there is no error in your logic despite being the dumbest argument presented is just... Just refer to what I told curry.

Deagonx said:
I'm aware that it didn't happen, this is not an argument against what I am saying. The fact that the game ends when you die doesn't create any issue for what I am saying. The game shows that the ability can and will kill Kratos. Lots of things in the game can kill Kratos. We do not conclude that none of that is usable for evidence because "Kratos did not canonically die at that point in the story."

same as above

CurrySenpai · May 6, 2024

No lie, I’m feeling A LOT of passive aggressiveness from the counter arguments at least, so I’d appreciate if it could be dropped since I don’t think I’ve really responded in such a way myself.

Deagonx · May 6, 2024

DaReaperMan said:
Does the Story move on despite the failed QTE? If the answer is yes, it is as canon as the successful QTE. If the answer is no then the successful QTE is the sole canon. God of War Ascension goes to a game over screen if you fail that QTE. The failure is not canon.

I'll say this once more. No one is taking the stance that the failure is canon. The failed QTE event being non-canon is not an obstacle here, because it demonstrates that Kratos is indeed vulnerable to the ability.

Especially because the reason that Kratos does not succumb to the ability when you succeed is because you evade their attempts at using it, not because Kratos resists it.

Imagine a QTE event where Rogue from X-Men is trying to life drain you, and if you fail you die when she touches you, but if you succeed you manage to prevent Rogue from touching you in the first place. The game is still confirming that the character is vulnerable to Rogue's abilities. The fact that the canonical ending is succeeding in avoiding it doesn't mean you have a "resistance" to it. That's ridiculous. The game literally confirms you are vulnerable to it.

Tony_di_bugalu said:
The lightning is stated to do the stuff I mentioned plus some more unknown to me afaik. Him getting hit and not getting haxed is already the justification.

Your stance would be correct if instead of just getting "hurt and staggered" Zeus was straight up unable to use his magic.
well damn, now you know why he has resistances too
Did zeus lose his powers or only got staggered? First one is evidence of your argument, second one isn't.

The logic still goes with every boss that had the same attack reflected back to them. They just got harmed, staggered, dazzed, not soul ******, mind destroyed or power nulled. That is a textbook resistance.

Just to make it clear: taking damage =/= getting haxed

More likely, these attacks just didn't have those hax in that fight. Using a later game's mechanics and saying "the reason it wasn't in the earlier game was because everyone was resisting all of it" is not great, either.

In any case, Zeus' own magic does harm him. If you want to claim he has "resistance to magic negation" on that basis, that would be an entirely different claim from saying "all gods are immune to their own magic."

Dark_Soul20189 · May 6, 2024

CurrySenpai said:
No lie, I’m feeling A LOT of passive aggressiveness from the counter arguments at least, so I’d appreciate if it could be dropped since I don’t think I’ve really responded in such a way myself.

Honestly, dosen't that Always happen When Fujiwara makes a thread?

DaReaperMan · May 6, 2024

CurrySenpai said:
No lie, I’m feeling A LOT of passive aggressiveness from the counter arguments at least, so I’d appreciate if it could be dropped since I don’t think I’ve really responded in such a way myself.

Passive aggressive/blunt is just how I carry myself in debates, sorry/not sorry I suppose

Can't speak for Tony though

Tony_di_bugalu · May 6, 2024

CurrySenpai said:
No lie, I’m feeling A LOT of passive aggressiveness from the counter arguments at least, so I’d appreciate if it could be dropped since I don’t think I’ve really responded in such a way myself.

That would be my fault. My comments always come off like I'm trying to burn people where they stand with my words but most of the time it's just me talking how I normally do. ~~Sarcastic, bored and ready to get beaten by life but willing to keep going.~~

If anything I'll keep trying to not hurt feelings or make people uncomfortable.

Deagonx said:
More likely, these attacks just didn't have those hax in that fight. Using a later game's mechanics and saying "the reason it wasn't in the earlier game was because everyone was resisting all of it" is not great, either.

I'm not even close to being knowledgeable on GoW but is there any statement or something that says he was holding back in a fight for his life? Or that his lightning bolts didn't have the same properties as the rest?

Because if not then there is 0 reason to believe the ones he used there are different.

Deagonx said:
In any case, Zeus' own magic does harm him. If you want to claim he has "resistance to magic negation" on that basis, that would be an entirely different claim from saying "all gods are immune to their own magic."

eh?

Tony_di_bugalu · May 6, 2024

DaReaperMan said:
Passive aggressive/blunt is just how I carry myself in debates, sorry/not sorry I suppose

Can't speak for Tony though

same brother

DaReaperMan · May 6, 2024

Deagonx said:
I'll say this once more. No one is taking the stance that the failure is canon. The failed QTE event being non-canon is not an obstacle here, because it demonstrates that Kratos is indeed vulnerable to the ability.

If it's not canon it can't be used. At all. No matter what it shows. Unless of course you want me to start applying fuckery like Maiev nearly killing Malfurion in Wolfheart despite her part in that book having seven separate reasons it's retconned and Not Canon.

What about Storm of Chaos(Aka 6th Edition) in Warhammer Fantasy, it is obviously not canon and everyone-- even the Warhammer wiki-- accepts this... should we use feats/statements from it even though it's not canon?

Deagonx · May 6, 2024

Tony_di_bugalu said:
I'm not even close to being knowledgeable on GoW but is there any statement or something that says he was holding back in a fight for his life? Or that his lightning bolts didn't have the same properties as the rest?

Nothing says they even had those properties in that game. All of that stuff comes from God of War Ascension, where you can get these spells with the Zeus Alignment:

Magic	Description
Lightning Storm	Summon a powerful bolt of lightning to create an explosion beneath you. Your lightning storm pulls enemies towards the center of the lighting strike before it hits making it more difficult to escape. Greatly increase the size and radius of your lightning. Cost: 100 magic. Uses: 2 (Rank 3).
Reckoning of Zeus	Summon a powerful bolt of electricty that shocks and stuns all enemies. Damages within a large radius. The bolt will explode afterwards causing additional damage. The final explosion now silences anyone whom it hits. Duration: 4 seconds. Cost: 50 magic Uses: 2 (Rank 3).
Olympic Judgment	Project a powerful lightning cone directly in front of you, electrifying and causing massive damage to anyone it hits. A final shockwave will now send enemies flying. Duration: 4 seconds. Cost: 75 magic. Uses: 2 (Rank 3).
Annihilation	Channel bursts of lightning to electrocute enemies. Alternate between L1 and R1 to lengthen attack. Uninterruptable. Cost: 100 magic (Rank 3).

Yet, big problem here. Three out of four of these do not have the "silence" effect, and the one that does only applies it on the explosion. The lightning attack in God of War 2 doesn't explode, so why would we assume it has a "silence" effect that Kratos and Zeus are resisting?

DaReaperMan said:
If it's not canon it can't be used. At all. No matter what it shows

Yeah, that's not a rule. This isn't like a non-canon book adaptation or filler or something like that. This is the canon material saying that this is what would happen to Kratos if he does not react quickly enough and prevent them from hitting him with the attack. That's not a resistance, and it is canonical information even if the event itself did not canonically occur. Again, reacting fast enough to the QTE doesn't just let Kratos tank the ability, it prevents them from using it on Kratos at all.

The_Yellow_Topaz · May 6, 2024

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
I’m already the most hated woman on VSBW.

How have I not taken this title from you yet.

Still, this is really well done. Some arguments here and there are kind of hard for me since my last debate on GoW has been quite long ago.

I'll wait for more counterpoints.

DaReaperMan · May 6, 2024

Deagonx said:
Yeah, that's not a rule. This isn't like a non-canon book adaptation or filler or something like that. This is the canon material saying that this is what would happen to Kratos if he does not react quickly enough and prevent them from hitting him with the attack. That's not a resistance, and it is canonical information even if the event itself did not canonically occur.

Do ya have proof of that or should I just take your word that that's what the devs/story stuff intended

Bluntly put if it is just Kratos dodging I agree with the resistances being removed(even though I'm 90% sure you can get hit and not die in gameplay)

What I disagree with is using feats that are obviously not canon to back up arguments-- any arguments.

Deagonx · May 6, 2024

DaReaperMan said:
Do ya have proof of that or should I just take your word that that's what the devs/story stuff intended

Yes. The proof is the fact that if you succeed in the quick time event, you avoid letting Pollux and Castor cast the spell on you with agility, and if you fail they cast it on you and you instantly die.

DaReaperMan said:
What I disagree with is using feats that are obviously not canon to back up arguments-- any arguments.

This game is canon. Once again, games have lots of possibilities but ultimately only one set of things can actually occur. That does not mean that only the information derived from the canonical version of events can inform us on how things work in the verse. This is not a rule that we have, nor is it one that we should have. If a "bad ending" for a VN character showed him dying via electrocution, that would be evidence he did not have Lightning Resistance even if he canonically wasn't electrocuted in the first place.

DaReaperMan · May 6, 2024

Deagonx said:
Yes. The proof is the fact that if you succeed in the quick time event, you avoid letting Pollux and Castor cast the spell on you with agility, and if you fail they cast it on you and you instantly die.

Already answered what my thoughts on that are in my literal last post.(hint hint, it's if Kratos dodges it and never gets hit I'm fine with removing the resistance)

Deagonx said:
This game is canon. Once again, games have lots of possibilities but ultimately only one set of things can actually occur. That does not mean that only the information derived from the canonical version of events can inform us on how things work in the verse. This is not a rule that we have, nor is it one that we should have. If a "bad ending" for a VN character showed him dying via electrocution, that would be evidence he did not have Lightning Resistance even if he canonically wasn't electrocuted in the first place.

God of War Ascension is a game with a lot of things moving so the story can work, Kratos dying would break the entire story, I am one of those people of the opinion of "if it's not canon don't use it for anything."

If the VN moves on or even gives you an ending where the MC got the electric chair, AND doesn't have a sequel where they are alive and well-- sure. We can use it, because a VN/choice game relies on those kinds of things... God of War has one story on a set path. There aren't choices, there's no 2 endings to a game, it has one path, one narrative, one story. If that story can't work if a QTE is failed, that QTE fail is immediately unusuable.

Deagonx · May 6, 2024

DaReaperMan said:
God of War Ascension is a game with a lot of things moving so the story can work, Kratos dying would break the entire story, I am one of those people of the opinion of "if it's not canon don't use it for anything."

If the VN moves on or even gives you an ending where the MC got the electric chair, AND doesn't have a sequel where they are alive and well-- sure. We can use it, because a VN/choice game relies on those kinds of things... God of War has one story on a set path. There aren't choices, there's no 2 endings to a game, it has one path, one narrative, one story. If that story can't work if a QTE is failed, that QTE fail is immediately unusuable.

There is no substantive difference. The canonical outcome of Super Mario probably involves Mario evading fireballs, jumping on Goombas, and etc. This does not mean that we cannot conclude canonically that these things can kill Mario, even if we know the point of the story is for him to succeed.

You are free to disagree, but we do not have any rule against using such information. The fact that Kratos would be killed if he's not agile enough to avoid the attack is usable information, this isn't a secondary or tertiary canon source, this is one of the main games of the series.

DaReaperMan · May 6, 2024

Deagonx said:
There is no substantive difference. The canonical outcome of Super Mario probably involves Mario evading fireballs, jumping on Goombas, and etc. This does not mean that we cannot conclude canonically that these things can kill Mario, even if we know the point of the story is for him to succeed.

Mario is a terrible example considering Mario & Luigi shows Mario and Luigi both just sweeping armies of Goombas and whatnot-- there's a reason Goombas in base doing shit to the normal cast is considered Game Mechanics. A better example would be any game of the Souls Series, as each canonically has the MC be immortal, so them dying wouldn't break the story, nor would them being a dodge God and no-hitting the fight... but both examples are game series without a 100% set in stone story when we play it, both Mario and Luigi have 1-ups and Bowser himself literally goes Kaiju if he dies canonically. God of War is a series with a set story.

Deagonx said:
You are free to disagree, but we do not have any rule against using such information. The fact that Kratos would be killed if he's not agile enough to avoid the attack is usable information, this isn't a secondary or tertiary canon source, this is one of the main games of the series.

Then we should make a rule on it, permission to start setting up a Staff Thread for such?

Deagonx · May 6, 2024

DaReaperMan said:
Mario is a terrible example considering Mario & Luigi shows Mario and Luigi both just sweeping armies of Goombas and whatnot-- there's a reason Goombas in base doing shit to the normal cast is considered Game Mechanics. A better example would be any game of the Souls Series, as each canonically has the MC be immortal, so them dying wouldn't break the story, nor would them being a dodge God and no-hitting the fight... but both examples are game series without a 100% set in stone story when we play it, both Mario and Luigi have 1-ups and Bowser himself literally goes Kaiju if he dies canonically. God of War is a series with a set story.

That isn't a parallel to what's happening here, you aren't saying this isn't canon because it's contradicted by the canon established in a different game. You are saying it isn't canon because the main character canonically succeeds. I am using Super Mario 1 as an example of how this logic fails. For the purposes of the analogy, SM1 needs to be thought of as being in a vacuum. If that hang-up is really so significant I can come up with a stand-alone game where this logic fails similarly.

DaReaperMan said:
Then we should make a rule on it, permission to start setting up a Staff Thread for such?

No. We are never going to exclude info from canon games about the verse mechanics, simply because a specific event that demonstrates those mechanics are not part of the canonical ending. There is no argument to be made here. The event doesn't need to occur in canon, so long as canon material tells us that's how it would work if it did happen. That will always be usable.

DaReaperMan · May 6, 2024

Deagonx said:
That isn't a parallel to what's happening here, you aren't saying this isn't canon because it's contradicted by the canon established in a different game. You are saying it isn't canon because the main character canonically succeeds. I am using Super Mario 1 as an example of how this logic fails. For the purposes of the analogy, SM1 needs to be thought of as being in a vacuum. If that hang-up is really so significant I can come up with a stand-alone game where this logic fails similarly.

And Mario still has 1-ups in SM1. He can die a lot and the story would indeed still work.

Deagonx said:
No. We are never going to exclude info from canon games about the verse mechanics, simply because a specific event that demonstrates those mechanics are not part of the canonical ending. There is no argument to be made here. The event doesn't need to occur in canon, so long as canon material tells us that's how it would work if it did happen. That will always be

That's the problem, if it's not part of the canonical ending, what canon is it a part of Deagonx? If it never happens in the story that is told in the game, why should we use it?

This isn't "it goes against my argument so I want it gone" because I have literally said that if the canonical showing is that Kratos never gets hit by the hax in the first place the resistances should be removed. That applies to all resistances for dodging it, BTW.

Hasty12345 · May 6, 2024

Do these characters have abilities based on what would of happened to Kratos if the QTE doesn’t succeed?

DaReaperMan · May 6, 2024

Hasty12345 said:
Do these characters have abilities based on what would of happened to Kratos if the QTE doesn’t succeed?

If so, they should be removed, that's my stance.

Hasty12345 · May 6, 2024

DaReaperMan said:
If so, they should be removed, that's my stance.

I agree, any ability that is a result of something that could of happened to Kratos due to failing a QTE needs to be removed.

I will look over the profiles when I get time and maybe we could add them to the OP or I’ll make my own crt.

After all, Kratos can’t resist an ability that’s not canon.

BestMGQScalerEver · May 6, 2024

QTEs should never be disregarded. Alternate endings may not be the "canon" or official ending but they still give context around the scenario.

Georredannea15 · May 6, 2024

Hasty12345 said:
Do these characters have abilities based on what would of happened to Kratos if the QTE doesn’t succeed?

You can understand it however you want, but if mc dies because you don't act fast in a game and that's why you go back to the beginning, that doesn't in any way mean that character can't withstand that attack. What interests us is the direction of the story and the game wants Kratos to have the power to counter it, so it starts the game from the beginning. It would be utterly ridiculous to consider that an anti-feat or to consider that failure canon because we don't do that in this kind of game series

Hasty12345 · May 6, 2024

Georredannea15 said:
You can understand it however you want, but if mc dies because you don't act fast in a game and that's why you go back to the beginning, that doesn't in any way mean that character can't withstand that attack. What interests us is the direction of the story and the game wants Kratos to have the power to counter it, so it starts the game from the beginning. It would be utterly ridiculous to consider that an anti-feat or to consider that failure canon because we don't do that in this kind of game series

It’s equally ridiculous to give characters a resistance to an ability the game makes the point to showcase if Kratos is hit by it he dies.

Deagonx · May 6, 2024

DaReaperMan said:
And Mario still has 1-ups in SM1. He can die a lot and the story would indeed still work.

That's not the point of the hypothetical. Even if 1-Ups didn't exist we would still know that fireballs can kill Mario. The fact that canonically he successfully avoided ever being hit by one doesn't mean we can't regard his vulnerability to fireballs as canon info.

DaReaperMan said:
That's the problem, if it's not part of the canonical ending, what canon is it a part of Deagonx? If it never happens in the story that is told in the game, why should we use it?

It is canon information for the verse. The same reason we use bad endings for info, too. There's no distinction between the failed QTE and a Bad Ending in a VN, etc.

All games involve a variety of choices, and choices/outcomes that aren't the "canon ending" still communicate information about how the verse works.

You're free to take the stance otherwise but this more or less isn't relevant to the thread. There's no reason for us to discard that information.

Georredannea15 · May 6, 2024

Hasty12345 said:
It’s equally ridiculous to give characters a resistance to an ability the game makes the point to showcase if Kratos is hit by it he dies.

But that's an element that continues in the main story, and the other one doesn't continue in the main story at all, and the game keeps sending you back to the chapter you were in (because it's not an element in the story), so it's not canon. Whatever you call it, wiki has this kind of attitude for this kind of games.

Seriously, I hope you are not comparing a non-canon element with a canon element in the story

Deagonx · May 6, 2024

Georredannea15 said:
so it's not canon. Whatever you call it, wiki has this kind of attitude for this kind of games.

Seriously, I hope you are not comparing a non-canon element with a canon element in the story

It needn't occur canonically. If it's one of the possible outcomes then that's still usable information for verse mechanics. We do this for VNs and RPG games all the time. GoW isn't special in that regard

Hasty12345 · May 6, 2024

Georredannea15 said:
But that's an element that continues in the main story, and the other one doesn't continue in the main story at all, and the game keeps sending you back to the chapter you were in (because it's not an element in the story), so it's not canon. Whatever you call it, wiki has this kind of attitude for this kind of games.

Seriously, I hope you are not comparing a non-canon element with a canon element in the story

I’m not comparing canon to non canon elements, just because Kratos canonically dodges doesn’t mean the attack cannot canonically kill Kratos.

The game goes out of its way to show us this.

The argument you are pulling is absurd at its very foundation.

The_Unknown_Warrior1 · May 6, 2024

In all fairness, I can understand what Deagonx is trying to say. Even if ultimately a failed QTE is not considered as being the "canon" outcome of the event, it being an alternate possibility to what could've happened is something that still provides viable information regardless if it's not the actual outcome.

Now do I personally agree with such an assessment? Not necessarily, and I think that succeeded QTEs should take precedence over failed ones, but I'm trying to be fair and looking at through the other perspective of the argument. That's just my take anyway, and outside of my initial comments in regards to the Heimdall stuff I'm generally in agreement with the thread so far

Georredannea15 · May 6, 2024

Deagonx said:
It needn't occur canonically. If it's one of the possible outcomes then that's still usable information for verse mechanics. We do this for VNs and RPG games all the time. GoW isn't special in that regard

Give me an example for a game, or a rule that explains this. I'm waiting.

And no, if something is not canon we don't consider it in the verse. The verse goes through a certain canonicality.

So let's use things which are not canon but which upgrade the verse, are you in favor of that?

CurrySenpai · May 6, 2024

The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
In all fairness, I can understand what Deagonx is trying to say. Even if ultimately a failed QTE is not considered as being the "canon" outcome of the event, it being an alternate possibility regardless of the fact is something to consider and I can see why it would be seen as being usable information.

Now do I personally agree with such an assessment? Not necessarily, and I think that succeeded QTEs should take precedence over failed ones, but I'm trying to be fair and looking at through the other perspective of the argument. That's just my take anyway, and outside of my initial comments in regards to the Heimdall stuff I'm generally in agreement with the thread so far

Okay but no one is saying that a succeeded QTE doesn’t take precedence over a failed one. Why would it not? That’s how the story progresses. The point is if it goes out of its way to show that the attack would have killed you via a QTE then you probably don’t resist it.

Georredannea15 · May 6, 2024

Hasty12345 said:
I’m not comparing canon to non canon elements, just because Kratos canonically dodges doesn’t mean the attack cannot canonically kill Kratos.

The game goes out of its way to show us this.

The argument you are pulling is absurd at its very foundation.

Dude, you're the one trying to add non-canon stuff to the verse, not me. Personally, if I were to do something like this, I would look at my own post of the other person's arguments before calling them "absurd".

"Ares! Downgrade This Verse, and My Life is Yours!" ⌈GoW Downgrades, Part 1/???⌋

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