"Ares! Downgrade This Verse, and My Life is Yours!" ⌈GoW Downgrades, Part 1/???⌋

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Hang on, I think there's a misunderstanding here. Kratos doesn't have resistance to RE. I was specifically talking about removing his Ragnarok key's reactive evolution, which has based on him adapting to and "resisting" Heimdall's telepathy. That's why the section was titled "Resistance to Telepathy & Reactive Evolution", which I assume you read as resistance to reactive evolution?

Ngl, I thought the same

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Hang on, I think there's a misunderstanding here. Kratos doesn't have resistance to RE. I was specifically talking about removing his Ragnarok key's reactive evolution, which has based on him adapting to and "resisting" Heimdall's telepathy. That's why the section was titled "Resistance to Telepathy & Reactive Evolution", which I assume you read as resistance to reactive evolution?

Yeah ngl read that as that, should probably change it to "Reactive Evolution and Resistance to Telepathy" just to avoid any future confusion

Also gonna read through this wall of text later

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Hang on, I think there's a misunderstanding here. Kratos doesn't have resistance to RE. I was specifically talking about removing his Ragnarok key's reactive evolution, which has based on him adapting to and "resisting" Heimdall's telepathy. That's why the section was titled "Resistance to Telepathy & Reactive Evolution", which I assume you read as resistance to reactive evolution?

Yeah.... I was hell a confused how that was even a thing. Thank you for correcting that. Have very big exams coming around the corner and barley have any free time so I am mentally exhuasted.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Though it seems like I was far the only one that misunderstood that...

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

I think you misunderstand. My point is that the twins do not necessarily have these abilities activate passively, and must draw out the power of the Amulet of Uroboros for them to take effect (as WoG puts it, they have limitations on the extent to which they can use it). When Kratos "negates" its magic, he's just disrupting the twins' use of it. They obviously cannot maintain the concentration needed to keep themselves de-aged (even if all it takes is thought) while Kratos is beating the crap out of them.

But that's what I'm kinda contesting tho.

The twins; were cleary unconscious when Kratos grabbed them, but they were still in their prime. Kratos has to hit them for us to see their true age.

You can't exactly interrupt someone thought process while they are unconscious. And by that logic, you can't interrupt a power that's unconsciously active.

And yes, wog does state that, but they also state later they had used the Amulet of Uroboros to its fullest extent, suggesting that these limits are holding back types of limits, especially when it's made clear the twins were toying around.

Again, I think you misunderstand. What you interpret as Kratos "overpowering" the amulet affecting him is actually just as simple as Kratos beating up the twins before they can use the amulet's full potential against him. The point is that, when they successfully use its power against him, he does not resist it at all. The entire reason he survives is because he never gives the twins the chance to actually use their instant-win magic.

But they do use it successfully, at both the time stamps i linked, and Kratos is shown resisting it at both of those instances.

Again, why are we cherry picking the qtes here? They're all pretty much contradicted by the canon, that being us successfully doing them, and if we are considering them, why aren't we considering the two failed qtes where Kratos resists these abilities?

I'm not sure why this is being interpreted as Kratos overpowering the amulet's effects when the twins just teleport around before clashing with Kratos. Pollux even says to "stop toying with [Kratos]" moments before, showing that they weren't actually using the amulet's full potential and likely weren't actually trying to kill Kratos in that moment.

It's interpreted as such because, as the wog provides, Kratos was affected by the amulet of Uroborus abilities and was pinned when we were in first person, yet, when the twins try to attack Kratos, he's able to move just fine and counterattack.

The first scan is a compilation of finishing moves; While I may not have made this clear before, one of the points I originally brought up was that Kratos is only shown killing legionnaires with finishing moves, as he cannot kill them through conventional means. It is made quite clear in both gameplay and in the novelization that Kratos can't just brute force his way through their immortality, and must kill them beyond what they can resurrect from (which I guess is still "brute forcing" his way through their immortality... point is, it's not immortality negation).

The cutscene is interesting, though inconsistent with the other depictions of Kratos battling legionnaires.

While the video is titled as finishing moves, they're not actual finishing moves. Kratos doesn't have to exactly wear them down.

They can be done at any moment by Kratos just grabbing them.

But their immortality is still being negged in the games, as he kills them stabbing, slashing, neck breaking and lastly throwing. Stuff they should survive if their immortality isn't being negged.

How does the game not make the opposite true?

 

[BLS]

because fiction, there are some verse out there with character with power that: you can't evolve against me, blah blah blah

At that point it's affecting the enemies ability and not adjusting your own resistance.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

But that's what I'm kinda contesting tho.

The twins; were cleary unconscious when Kratos grabbed them, but they were still in their prime. Kratos has to hit them for us to see their true age.

You can't exactly interrupt someone thought process while they are unconscious. And by that logic, you can't interrupt a power that's unconsciously active.

And yes, wog does state that, but they also state later they had used the Amulet of Uroboros to its fullest extent, suggesting that these limits are holding back types of limits, especially when it's made clear the twins were toying around.

The exact quote is "they used it to the full extent they were capable of at the time". So they still had limitations in place, even when going all out. As said in the scan you quoted, it's like a tool, where you get better at using it over time. I'm also struggling to see where they were unconscious; Sure, they're off balance and swaying from side to side, but that's quite different from literally being knocked out and unable to do anything. He even gets right back up and tries using the amulet again immediately after Kratos punches him, showing he wasn't really unconscious.

I think it's also important to note that, if this is power null, it's hardly very effective; Kratos "negates" their de-aging for mere moments (not even a full second), and then they go right back to normal. They can still use their magic just fine. It's not nearly as potent as it is currently made out to be (and even then, it's not really power null at all).

But they do use it successfully, at both the time stamps i linked, and Kratos is shown resisting it at both of those instances.

Again, why are we cherry picking the qtes here? They're all pretty much contradicted by the canon, that being us successfully doing them, and if we are considering them, why aren't we considering the two failed qtes where Kratos resists these abilities?

They really don't. They're shown struggling against Kratos while trying to channel the amulet's magic, but Kratos breaks free from their grip and pummels them before that can happen. The QTEs are meant to demonstrate what would happen if Kratos didn't dodge the amulet's effects; They're not canon, of course, but they are still usable in the context of "what would happen if (xyz)". And in this case, the answer is "Kratos would die".

I really don't know how to keep explaining that we see what happens when Kratos is exposed to the amulet's magic (he's affected by it), while the instances of him "resisting" it boil down to Castor and Pollux simply not being able to use their magic (I would also struggle to cast a magic spell if I was currently being grappled and beaten up by the world's angriest man).

It's interpreted as such because, as the wog provides, Kratos was affected by the amulet of Uroborus abilities and was pinned when we were in first person, yet, when the twins try to attack Kratos, he's able to move just fine and counterattack.

WoG confirms Kratos was only slowed, not outright unable to fight back. Obviously, he's at a disadvantage, but being able to fight back in spite of that doesn't mean he wasn't on the back foot. This is further compounded by the twins basically confirming they were holding back against him at the time.

While the video is titled as finishing moves, they're not actual finishing moves. Kratos doesn't have to exactly wear them down.

They can be done at any moment by Kratos just grabbing them.

But their immortality is still being negged in the games, as he kills them stabbing, slashing, neck breaking and lastly throwing. Stuff they should survive if their immortality isn't being negged.

They are still treated as moves distinct from his regular moveset, distinguished by how they can kill foes Kratos normally cannot slay. I think the novelization pointing out how Kratos cannot kill legionnaires normally and must find a workaround contextualizes those scenes as Kratos just brute forcing his was past the limits of their regeneration, rather than having some supernatural ability to ignore immortality outright.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Ngl, I thought the same

Would you still agree that what's happening in that scene is not reactive evolution on Kratos' end?

Yeah ngl read that as that, should probably change it to "Reactive Evolution and Resistance to Telepathy" just to avoid any future confusion

Also gonna read through this wall of text later

Fixed.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

I disagree there. When they refer to the River Styx killing someone, it's because of the souls trying to take yours and make you a part of it.

They strip him of his health and magic because these are part of his soul. It's the only reason he could survive at all.

Edit: btw yeah, if he has resistance to death manip because of that feat, I definitely agree should be removed

It's from a guidebook statement that a sip from the styx will instantly kill someone. Seen the argument many times, whether you take the guidebook statement seriously or not kratos would naturally end up engulfing some of the water from the height he fell.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Would you still agree that what's happening in that scene is not reactive evolution on Kratos' end?

Fixed.

I'm more ambivalent to that. The spear undeniably is a factor. But as shown in the thread, you kinda need it only once. While you could argue gameplay bs, that becomes moreso a standards thing.

So while overall I personally wouldn't say Kratos is evolving a resistance in that instance, I don't fault the supporters for arguing it.
specially in this verse where abilities work randomly and then just stop working without explanation, like the sisters of fate, which is another instance I disagree with the OP

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

The exact quote is "they used it to the full extent they were capable of at the time

That's not the quote I was referring to, I was referring to this,

"They have limitations on what they can do with it. As the fight progressed, they used it to its fullest extent "

So they still had limitations in place, even when going all out. As said in the scan you quoted, it's like a tool, where you get better at using it over time. I'm also struggling to see where they were unconscious; Sure, they're off balance and swaying from side to side, but that's quite different from literally being knocked out and unable to do anything. He even gets right back up and tries using the amulet again immediately after Kratos punches him, showing he wasn't really unconscious.

Well, I think should've been more specific, Castor, was knocked out, Pollux is seemingly at a similar state but managed to awake (Pollux is one in the chest) at the last moment.

I think it's also important to note that, if this is power null, it's hardly very effective; Kratos "negates" their de-aging for mere moments (not even a full second), and then they go right back to normal. They can still use their magic just fine. It's not nearly as potent as it is currently made out to be (and even then, it's not really power null at all).

Doesn't matter in all honesty. Indexing is about adding the accurate label and category for the feats, It being minor or not doesn't matter.

They really don't. They're shown struggling against Kratos while trying to channel the amulet's magic, but Kratos breaks free from their grip and pummels them before that can happen. The QTEs are meant to demonstrate what would happen if Kratos didn't dodge the amulet's effects; They're not canon, of course, but they are still usable in the context of "what would happen if (xyz)". And in this case, the answer is "Kratos would die".

I really don't know how to keep explaining that we see what happens when Kratos is exposed to the amulet's magic (he's affected by it), while the instances of him "resisting" it boil down to Castor and Pollux simply not being able to use their magic (I would also struggle to cast a magic spell if I was currently being grappled and beaten up by the world's angriest man).

Pollux is holding him there for 3 seconds straight while having his magic activated, his magic is being used on Kratos, it just didn't affect him.

And again, two other failed QTEs show the opposite,

7:27,7:57

Kratos would resist regardless of that specific QTE.

WoG confirms Kratos was only slowed, not outright unable to fight back. Obviously, he's at a disadvantage, but being able to fight back in spite of that doesn't mean he wasn't on the back foot. This is further compounded by the twins basically confirming they were holding back against him at the time.

Sure, but pinned was also used. They even insist on that specific instant being where Kratos was pinned.

And they literally agree to stop holding back tho,

"Stop toying with him Castor!"

They are still treated as moves distinct from his regular moveset, distinguished by how they can kill foes Kratos normally cannot slay. I think the novelization pointing out how Kratos cannot kill legionnaires normally and must find a workaround contextualizes those scenes as Kratos just brute forcing his was past the limits of their regeneration, rather than having some supernatural ability to ignore immortality outright.

The novel is secondary canon, if the game shows Kratos killing the Legionnaires by slashing, we go with the games.

And, I mean, yeah? That's what Immortality Negation is? Killing people you normally can't?
But I'm going to stop responding, I think I should leave this to other supporters and hopefully not clutter the thread more then it already is.

 

[Deagonx]

That's due to the souls in the river stripping away his health and magic. It's not an innate property of the river itself. The fact that Kratos doesn't die despite the purported instant-death effects of the river show that the river's properties and the abilities of the souls that dwell there are two very different things.

I think that this distinction is mostly academic, but your point comes through either way: It's clear the river will kill you, but there's nothing to suggest that A) Touching the river in any capacity instantly kills you and B) The reason that it didn't immediately kill Kratos (and simply threatened to kill him quickly) was because of some undescribed resistance and C) That the reason Kratos could not "resist it" after Zeus' attack was due to an undescribed resistance negation.

In any case, the evidence is clearly in favor of removing the ability.

Spoiler: Various Quotes

Resistance to Divine Magic​

Gods are assumed to resist the basic properties of their own magic. There are a couple of supposed examples of individual gods resisting their own magic, but there is no evidence of this being a broad trait of godhood in general. It’s just assumed that they can resist their magic innately, with no source to back it up. Okay then.

But what about Zeus, Poseidon, and the like? They appear to resist their own abilities, right? Uh, not quite. Both scans of Zeus “resisting” his own lightning showcase him being damaged and staggered by it, which doesn’t really read as him “resisting” it in any capacity. Same goes for Hades; His attacks, when reflected back at him, knock him back and cause him to roar in pain. In Poseiden’s case, the only reason given for his “resistance” is him shooting lightning bolts out of his hands. This isn’t a resistance, unless we want to give every spellcaster in the history of forever a resistance to their own magic for the same exact reason.

Kratos “adapting” to Atlas’ magic is also bad. He doesn’t adapt to it; It is his own power that he is learning to control. Any character given a new power, without understanding what it is or what it does, would find it difficult to wield at first, but they can of course learn to do so through focus and practice (which Kratos does so). This does not mean such characters innately resist other people using similar magic on them; If I learn how to use a fireball spell, blow myself up the first time I use it, and then learn how to control it better, that doesn’t mean I’m suddenly immune to other people chucking fireballs at me.

All that leaves is this scene from Ragnarok, where Thor is consumed by his own electricity after his death. The implication is supposed to be that after he loses his soul - the source of his magic - he no longer has the means to resist his own magic, thus allowing the lightning to overtake his body. This is wrong for a few reasons. First is that this is described as lightning consuming his body, when what we see is that his body dissolves into a bunch of particles. Sure, there are some sparks of electricity here and there, but it is certainly not what any reasonable person would describe as “consuming his body”. Second is that there’s… not really a reason for this to be Thor’s own lightning? There’s no clear source for it, and I find it highly unlikely that Thor’s final actions as a dying man would be to conjure up a couple of tiny sparks of electricity to literally kill himself faster and not even leave a corpse behind for his daughter to bury or mourn over. Would be kind of a dick move, if I’m being honest!

I also take issue with Thor resisting lightning in the first place, since it’s unsourced and the only other scan for it involves Thor being visibly damaged by lightning, but that’s neither here nor there. I should also mention that this is being cross-scaled between Greek and Norse deities, despite there being no indication that the two should share physiological traits (that there is a Greek Godhood section with its own unique abilities shows that GoW supporters are aware of this).

This is sound. None of this constitutes a resistance.

Primordials

Soul Manipulation [+ Associated Abilities], Darkness Manipulation, Sleep Manipulation, Dream Manipulation, Water Manipulation, Earth Manipulation, & Death Manipulation​

Actually, all of these abilities are valid… for the characters who use them. These are listed not on each individual primordial’s page, but on the primordial page itself, treating these abilities as though they’re something the primordials can do collectively. Thanatos has nothing to do with sleep or dreams, while Morpheus has nothing to do with death, so don’t go around cross-scaling their abilities like this.

Agreed, these abilities should be particularized to the profiles of each individual Primordial, not generalized across the entire "species" so to speak.

Extrasensory Perception & Information Analysis [Demigod Key]​

This is not meant to remove these abilities entirely, just removing bad justifications for them (and slightly downgrading them by extension). There’s quite a lot of feats going for these, so let’s break down the pertinent scans going for them.

The tip of the staff is literally glowing blue.

There is no indication that this apparition would need some kind of enhanced senses or ESP in order to perceive. This feat moreso reads as “Kratos can see the color red”, which I would certainly hope he is capable of.

The passage in question states that Zeus had taught Kratos to be wary of strange weapons, and Kratos does not innately know what the spear is capable of (although he is aware that it is dangerous). He is simply referring back to past experiences in order to draw a conclusion here, and is not something attributable to some kind of information analysis. Speaking of past experiences…

This is a dishonest reading of what is actually presented. I’ll defer to Dammerung on this one, though, since his breakdown is pretty detailed.

This is a perplexing statement, as Kratos does no such thing in the cited novel. The cited passage “Old magic... We met a witch in the woods, she is knowing of the old ways," is presented in a dishonest manner. Mimir, in the sentence immediately preceding that one, says “The trick is, we need to find someone who can re-animate my head, using the old magic.” Kratos didn’t discern Freya’s ability to resurrect, Mimir brought it up and Kratos made an inference with the information he had available

Agreed. The first two are visual. If there was some indication that normal people couldn't see the apparition that would help, but we'd need to include that in the justification.

The third is straightforward, that's not ESP. The fourth is also straightforward. He says he met her and that she knows the old ways. There are no indications that he knew that due to "sensing" it. If such a scan exists, it would need to be included in the justification.

Immortality Negation [1, 2, 3, 4, 6, & 7] [Demigod Key]​

Kratos mainly has this via killing undead legionnaires, which can shrug off fatal wounds and resurrect after death. The first scan showcases how Kratos pins the heads of two of them to a wall, noting how this was done so other warriors could hack them apart at their leisure; Notably, this does not kill them, and also proves that anybody can kill undead legionnaires so long as they can wound them beyond what they are capable of regenerating from. Kratos is merely aware of the limits of their immortality, and knows how to exploit that. That leads me into the other scans, where Kratos shatters a frozen legionnaire, and then tears apart another one with his bare hands - These scans showcases that Kratos can’t kill legionnaires normally, and he must very specifically tear them apart to kill them (you can see them fall apart before reforming). He is not “negating” their immortality, but rather destroying them beyond what their immortality allows them to survive (a more extreme example would be giving someone regen negation for erasing a guy who can regenerate severed limbs from existence).

The remainder of the justification is completely unsourced.

Also, type 1 immortality negation isn’t a thing. Kratos can kill old people, I guess, good for him.

Agreed. Unless there are indications that other people attempting to kill them in this manner would fail where Kratos succeeds, this is too presumptive.

Power Nullification [Demigod Key]​

Kratos has this because he can supposedly nullify Castor and Pollux’s magic with every strike. Aside from how there is very little visual indication of this (the green glow emanated by their weapons briefly vanishes in the second scan, but returns in under a second), it also just isn’t a logical interpretation. The Amulet of Uroboros is a magic item, whose effects must be activated in order to take place. It isn’t passively warping time or anything. So when Kratos “disrupts” its magic by hitting Castor and Pollux, he’s actually just interrupting them and briefly preventing them from tapping into their magic. This is, of course, something that happens in countless video games (even down to TTRPGs, with mechanics like concentration checks), and isn’t necessarily a form of power null so much as it is a weakness of magic users.

A more astute observer would notes that this justification is very similar to the one already listed in his reactive evolution justification; It seems that the page is insistent on the idea that he was being affected by the amulet, but grew to resist it, but he also nullified it, while ignoring that those are incompatible with one another. We can clearly see that Kratos doesn’t nullify its magic, so clearly reactive evolution is the better interpretation, right? Well, uh,

Reactive Evolution [Demigod Key]​

So, Kratos is supposedly affected by the Amulet of Uroboros, before adapting to resist its effects. This is backed by two WoG statements, saying he was indeed affected by the Amulet. But does Kratos ever actually fight back against it later in the fight? Well, uh… Castor and Pollux try to use it against Kratos, but Kratos physically overpowers them and prevents them from using the Amulet before that can happen. Knocking a weapon out of someone’s hands, or punching them in the gut before they kill you, is not “adapting” to shit. As explained further below, Kratos also demonstrably does not resist the Amulet of Uroboros when it matters most, so he very clearly did not adapt to it. But what about the Sisters of Fate? I’ll be covering that down below, alongside Kratos’ general resistance to their abilities.

Power Null is clearly unjustified. Interrupting a spellcaster is -- as you point out -- incredibly common and requires no special ability.

Agreed on Reactive Evolution, he pre-empted the amulet being used, he didn't evolve to resist it.

Resistance to Sirens’s Hax [Sound Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Madness Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, Explosion Manipulation, Body Puppetry, & Death Manipulation] [Demigod Key]​

Quite the mouthful, huh? Anyways, Kratos is said to be able to resist the abilities of the sirens, which have these effects. The source for this claim shows Kratos being affected by the song, and then sprinting headlong towards the sirens because he’s being manipulated. Not a good look, but surely he adapts and overpowers the effects, right? Well… in a manner of speaking, yes. He’s able to very briefly use the images of his deceased wife and daughter to power through the mental dominion held over him, taking the opportunity to deafen himself using the cacophony of Zeus’ thunder. Prior to this, the siren’s screech of anger broke the spell for long enough for Kratos to picture his wife in the first place, requiring no intervention from Kratos. However, he also notes how his hearing was returning, and questions if he had waited too long - Kratos himself knows this feat is not something he can replicate on a whim, so attributing it to some kind of innate resistance is just silly. For the record, the above explanation of Kratos deafening himself occurs moments before this cropped scan, so that’s also invalid.

There is another instance of him doing this later in the series. However, we yet again see him getting affected by the siren’s hax. The only reason he’s able to break free is because the siren finishes draining his energy, lets him go, and is caught off guard by Kratos’ inhuman strength even in a weakened state.

Yeah. Kratos explicitly remarks that Zeus' lightning deafens him in a manner that is comparable to the beeswax that Odysseus used. Prior to that it's made very clear that Kratos cannot resist them, and he tries to do so futilely by covering his ears. Later when the Sirens first approach him it literally says "Kratos knew the song for what it was - knew it sang the melody of his doom - but still he could not resist." It took all of his will just to reach back and briefly touch his blade, and the Siren didn't react because she knew it was futile.

Essentially Kratos used the full force of his willpower to manage to push a siren, and then she shrieked and that broke the spell. The other Sirens began bickering amongst themselves and Kratos took that opportunity to use Zeus' lightning which deafened him. This isn't resistance by any stretch of the imagination. It's very common for characters across fiction to be able to muster some limited movement in these circumstances even without having any special power, because the control is not portrayed as absolute.

Life Absorption, Magic Absorption, Energy Absorption, & Power Absorption [Demigod Key]​

I have no qualms with the abilities themselves, but GoW supporters frequently act as though Kratos’ mere touch is enough to cause these effects. This is not the case - In every single scan provided, it is made quite clear that he only does this on enemies that he slays.

So we would need to make this "Limited" right? Since he has only been portrayed doing it to dead opponents and not using it during combat itself?

Causality Manipulation [Demigod Key]​

The Amulet of Uroborus can rewind and stop time. That’s it. It manipulates time. It does not directly influence past events, it just rewinds time.

Self-evident. Agreed

Resistance to Petrification [Demigod Key]​

This stems from how Kratos can supposedly break free of the gorgon’s gaze, which petrifies those affected. Backing this up is a WoG statement regarding how Kratos was completely turned to stone, and not merely coated in an outer layer of stone. The question asked is a great example of a leading question. The wording presents a false binary: “does that mean he resists petrification or is the gorgon stare just weak so everyone can break out of it due to how it functions?” The options here for the developer, Bruno Valezquez, are that the gorgon stare is too weak to kill anybody, or Kratos can resist petrification. Does Bruno care about how powerful the gorgon stare is perceived? That’s unclear, but the asker certainly makes their stance on the potency of the stare known in a very unnecessary manner. (Say, for example, I called them the “whiny” or “ignorant” asker. Might it change your perception of them? It should of me.) There are a number of other potential ways that could have been worded (eg, “or could anybody break out of the gorgon stare if they were strong enough?”) which would have presented the option as a more neutral choice unassociated with negative connotations such as “weak.” The more important takeaway is what Bruno says in response: “...Kratos, although mostly encased in stone at that point…” He is not turned completely into stone. He explicitly is only “mostly encased in stone,” which means that not only is he not “just covered by a layer of it outside,” he is, in fact, not even entirely covered by a layer of it outside. This is an erroneous interpretation of the developer’s comments.

Credit to this document for the above explanation. However, it missed a vital piece of the puzzle; We actually have direct confirmation from Kratos himself that he doesn’t resist petrification. He says so here, noting that a Gorgon’s touch would be instantly lethal to him. This isn’t a case of Kratos underestimating himself, either. This passage happens in the GoW 2 novelization, whereas the feat of him “resisting” it comes from GoW 1.

Agreed. The WoG here is problematic, and the novelization makes it clear that Kratos has no such resistance.

Resistance to Poison & Acid [Demigod Key]​

The supposed feat is of Kratos breaking free from the chimera’s acidic poison, but we can see that this isn’t the case. He is left dazed and damaged, and is only “freed” by the chimera’s snake head tossing him around like a ragdoll. Also, “breaking free” from poison isn’t a resistance. He is merely leaving an area suffused with poison, while he takes damage while in that area of effect. I don’t “resist fire manipulation” for walking out of a burning building.

Self-evident. Agreed.

Resistance to Age Manipulation, Precognition, Clairvoyance, Time Manipulation, & Time Stop [Demigod Key]​

I’ve discussed before why I don’t believe the feats pertaining to Pollux and Castor’s abilities would give Kratos any sort of special hax, but he does, at the very least, resist their abilities, right? Well, in the scenes discussed before, Kratos is usually able to push away or interrupt the duo before they can call upon the full extent of their powers. It’s difficult to determine if Kratos is actually resisting their powers in these scenes, since they don’t really get a chance to properly use them. Still, there is one place we can see Kratos clearly exposed to their powers - A failed QTE. So, does Kratos no-sell their powers regardless and piledrive them into the ground? Is he left damaged or dazed, but still able to fight despite the power of time itself being brought to bear against him? No. He instantly dies. This justification is so bad it almost makes me want to “resist poison manipulation” (ie; drink bleach and instantly kill myself).

Yes, this is also poor reasoning. Pollux and Castor's abilities are clearly a serious threat to Kratos and he only avoids them by preventing them from being cast in the first place.

Resistance to Soul Manipulation/Absorption/Deconstruction/Transmutation [+ Associated Abilities] [Demigod Key]​

Kratos has this via fighting off the Arms of Hades. All well and good, but the problem is that this isn’t really a resistance. As seen in the scan, Kratos is tearing them apart while they aren’t even so much as scratching him. The manual backs this up by emphasizing how Kratos should keep the arms at bay with his attacks. When he is grabbed by them, they have no problem affecting him with their abilities. Him being able to break free can likely be attributed to how their effects aren’t instantaneous, giving anyone the opportunity to break out should they have the strength to do so. In short, what Kratos is doing isn’t a resistance, and he is visually shown to not resist it. There’s also the furies torturing Kratos in “body, mind, and soul”, but that is a very common turn of phrase that does not literally mean affecting someone’s soul.

Agreed. This would be like someone gaining resistance to Rogue's abilities by smacking her hand away with a broom, or ripping back their hand after being touched.

Resistance to Power Absorption [Demigod Key]​

This is the justification. Kratos doesn’t get his magic absorbed, sure, but that’s only because he pushes away the Priest of Fate attempting to do so before he actually gets a chance to absorb his powers. Obviously, if he doesn’t even get to use his power absorption in the first place, then Kratos doesn’t need to resist anything. If Kratos doesn’t break free of their grip, his magic gets absorbed just fine.

Resistance to Ice Manipulation [Demigod Key]​

Kratos is unphased by Typhon’s breath, which can flash freeze on contact. What’s the source for Typhon’s breath flash freezing on contact? Kratos saying that it would kill him instantly.

Resistance to Electricity Manipulation & Paralysis Inducement [God Key]​

Kratos is unphased by Zeus’ lightning, which can paralyze people. What’s the source for Zeus’ lightning paralyzing people? Kratos being paralyzed by his lightning.

Resistance to Madness Manipulation [Demigod Key]​

Kratos was able to resist the torture of the Furies, which can drive people insane. What’s the source for their torture driving people insane? Kratos being driven insane by their torture. I really don’t know how to explain that your source for a character resisting something should not be them explicitly being affected by that thing.

Self evident. My goodness.

Resistance to Power Nullification [Demigod Key]​

This stems from two scans, the first of which involves his clone throwing Zeus’ Fury - a lightning bolt that can negate magic - at Kratos… and missing. Of course, I shouldn’t have to say that having an attack miss you is not a resistance. The other justification is from resisting the waters of the River Lethe, which can erase the memory of one’s existence. There is no reason why these scans would indicate any form of power nullification.

Self evident.

Resistance to Memory & Mind Manipulation [Demigod Key]​

At the end of the first God of War, Kratos attempts to free himself from the nightmares that plague his mind by killing himself with the intent to erase his memories in the river Lethe. His profile says he resisted this (or that he should resist it, but who cares), which is made evident by the fact that he retains his memories after Athena raises him from the body of water he jumped into. Two problems with this. First, Kratos never entered the Lethe. The novel specifies that he fell into the Aegean sea (presumably, he would’ve killed himself, and then erase his memories in the Lethe after he arrived in the Underworld). Second, the fact that Kratos “resists” something that he intended to have affect him is very strange - Not unheard of for a character to resist their chosen means of suicide, but it casts doubt on the validity of that resistance.

Agreed. We would need more specific scans that actually indicate he entered the river Lethe, not just his intention to do so.

Resistance to Power of the Fates + Enhanced RE [Demigod & God Keys]​

Again, credit to Dammerung and his research document for the breakdown listed below. The claims for each ability are listed below.

The Sisters of Fate discuss cutting off his thread of fate in the cited passage (because he is resisting their efforts to manipulate them and causing their work to fall apart in the process), but they do not actually cut his thread. “You and Atropos are responsible, meddling individually. Cut the thread now!" Clotho plucked it again, but the vibrations died out quickly. Too quickly."

The thing is, we can set up a timeline for this. Kratos wasn’t immune to the Sisters of Fate at all. He was only able to escape the Underworld due to outside interference on the part of Lahkesis, who acted impetuously and didn’t consider the consequences of her actions (Chapter Eight).

This is because Lahkesis is bored with the state of things. Kratos entertains her. She withholds the information that she meddled carelessly with his thread of fate because she’s mad at her sisters and wants to see how he’ll change things up (Chapter Nine).

Atropos discovers her meddling in Chapter 13, which is actually the precipitating incident that leads to her sending out her projection at infinite speeds to speak with Iris.

I don’t want to post too many pages from the novel, but this pattern continues. It’s not that Kratos is immune, it’s that Atropos and Lahkesis are constantly meddling with his thread of fate to screw with each other as much as with him, and only realize the mistake they’ve made when it’s too late to change things without causing massive amounts of unforeseen consequences (Chapter 28).

There is another issue with this, one that Dammerung overlooked in his document. As shown in the GoW 2 novelization, even well after every other scan shown here (this particular scene takes place in chapter 46), Kratos inadvertently severs his own thread of fate - The implications of this are twofold. Obviously, if he severed his own thread, then the sisters never cut it in the first place (otherwise it wouldn’t still be there for Kratos to cut), contradicting the claim that he resisted the sisters’ attempts to sever it (or that it couldn’t be severed in the first place, having gone slack; Kratos cuts it just fine regardless). Beyond that, though, Kratos is crippled by this action, being brought to his knees and feeling agony akin to every muscle and nerve in his body being ripped apart. I would not call this a “resistance” to anything.

Then there’s the issue of the scans themselves. These two present a very obvious problem - In both of them, outside forces are credited for Kratos’ victories, not Kratos himself. Lahkesis orchestrates his victory as mentioned in the first scan, and Gaia was in part responsible for Kratos’ victory over Alrik by tampering with his destiny. It is the infighting between gods and their kin that save Kratos from a doomed fate time and time again, not Kratos “adapting” to his destiny. This removal would also apply to his “enhanced” supernatural willpower in his god key.

Also, Kratos shouldn’t resist life manipulation, sleep manipulation, or empathic manipulation anyways. The sisters only use life manipulation to forge new life, which Kratos does not necessarily need to resist. Sleep manipulation involves waking people up (not putting them to sleep, so effectively useless for trying to stop Kratos in the first place), and empathic manipulation involves playing matchmaker and making ugly people attractive (Kratos already Fucks Hard, so this is unnecessary).

It should be noted that, in the best case scenario, Kratos only should've ever been granted "resistance to fate manip." The other powers of the Fates are largely just "the various effects they have caused indirectly with Fate Manip" which Kratos never should've had resistance to.

In any case, the scans are very clear: Kratos is still affected by his own severing of the thread of fate, and the Fates were constrained by their own prior meddling, which meant that trying to resolve the issue with the Loom would've required a change to Kratos' fate so drastic that it would've had far-reaching consequences that they could not allow to occur. Further, the fact that Gaia's intervention was said to be responsible for his survival dictates that Kratos was not resisting things of his own accord. He was the beneficiary of powers even older than the Fates.

Martial Arts & Weapon Mastery [God Key]​

Before you kill me for this one, let me explain. Kratos is a skilled warrior, nobody is denying that. This removal is solely in regards to the idea that he’s somehow mastered all forms of combat of weaponry across all of time, as he can see all wars and conflicts across time due to that being his domain. However… that doesn’t mean he really understands what he’s seeing. He knows some basics here and there, but it’s made quite clear that the arms and armor of ages yet to come are things he struggles to grasp. Kratos can “see” people using guns in the future, but he clearly wouldn’t know how to actually effectively use a gun as an extension of that. This would also apply to Ares.

Agreed. He should have this for the styles of fighting he's actually portrayed as having skill in, but the notion that he can pick up any weapon across history and cultures and use it masterfully just because he has visions of wars when he approaches the throne is rather presumptive.

Resistance to Status Effect Inducement [God Key]​

This stems from Kratos “resisting” Helios’ light. Which he does not actually do. He is explicitly pushed back and stunned by it, and can only walk forward if he blocks out the light with his hands (if he ever lowers his hands, he is immediately pushed back and stunned again).

Self evident.

Resistance to Radiation [God Key]​

First of all, Kratos vibing in Ares’ dimension happened in GoW 1, prior to him becoming a god, so idk why that’s in this key. That aside, just because a pocket dimension has a space-like background doesn’t inherently mean that the area of the dimension that a character is transported to lacks oxygen or is rife with cosmic radiation. It’s not really a location bound by the typical rules of how space works in relation to earth, so more context would need to be given for us to assume it’s like space in ways other than size and visual appearance.

The second justification is just straight up baffling. Kratos witnesses the use of atomic weapons in WW2, remarking how he knows they cannot harm him. Contextually, this occurs while he is viewing acts of war across all of time; He is not physically present to experience the nuclear fallout of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it’s more like he’s watching a movie. In that same vein, him knowing he wouldn’t be affected is because he knows what he’s experiencing is a vision, and not the physical reality he occupies, just as I know a train coming towards the screen in a movie cannot hurt me (unlike those stupid Frenchies)

Self evident. The second scan is very clearly explaining that he can't be harmed by visions. If we were to take that literally, we would have to also take the following line "Nothing can harm him." literally as well, which is demonstrably false. Which means it's contextual to the situation, and therefore so is the sentence immediately preceding it.

Resistance to Advanced Non-Physical Interaction [Power of Hope Key]​

Yes, this is as stupid as it sounds. For starters, Kratos isn’t incorporeal. You don’t even need NPI to interact with him. Fear Zeus also doesn’t have “advanced” NPI, nor is there any reason why he should. Zeus also… does interact with Kratos. He doesn’t phase through him, his attacks physically clash against Kratos and cause Zeus to physically recoil. This would be impossible if Kratos was on a level of incorporeality that Zeus couldn’t affect (which, again, Kratos isn’t even incorporeal in the first place).

Nothing about this is right.

Self evident.

Weather Manipulation [Norse Key]​

Kratos has this because his presence caused a mini-Fimbulwinter upon his entrance to the Nine Realms. However, the scan only says these two events occurred at the same time. Nothing says Kratos himself caused the Fimbulwinter. This would be like saying I have passive explosion manipulation because I was born two weeks before 9/11 (verified true Fuji Fact btw).

This scan doesn't even mention Kratos. Is there a different scan along with it?

Accelerated Development [Norse Key]​

Again, credit to Dammerung for this one. Their willingness to debate semantics is impressive, and kind of scary if I’m being honest?

“due to having lost most of his strength from his God of War days and having become less muscular than before to the point where he was a shell of his former self…” I own the God of War 2018 novelization and can confirm that the phrase “shell of his former self” is not mentioned in the novel once. (And that the word “shell” is only used once, in chapter 11.) This statement cites chapter 48 of the novelization, which includes the line "Appearing much younger, beardless, and more muscular..." when Kratos sees a vision of his younger self in Helheim. The problem here is that the phrase “shell of his former self” is used to interpret the passage to hyperbolize Kratos' loss of strength, signifying a dramatic change that leaves it nigh unrecognizable. I would say that the addition of a phrase that isn’t used in the description is improper. Simply saying “having become much less muscular than before” is more accurate. This would not be worth mentioning on its own, but, as is evidenced by the next section, is part of a dubious pattern for this section.

1. “to eventually ending up regaining his old strength within mere seconds and completely turning the tide in the fight, effortlessly ragdolling and defeating Baldur.” Anybody who has played the introduction to 2018’s God of War, or watched the video cited as evidence for this claim, knows that this statement at best is a gross mischaracterization of what happens. Nothing about Kratos' first victory against Baldur is effortless, and the fight ends with Kratos literally covered in blood, limping back to his home and wondering if he and Atreus are ready to face the journey which he now knows awaits them. This section in particular is using inappropriate language to mischaracterize game events to make Kratos seem more impressive. It also makes a wild assertion, that Kratos regains his old strength within seconds, that is simply not supported by statements made in the game or in the accompanying lore, and is instantly contradicted by the very next line in this section of the VSBattles Wiki page.
2. “The entire journey revolves around Kratos slowly regaining his old strength from his old days as the God of War in order to protect and better prepare his son Atreus to face the harsh Norse Worlds…” This sentence is literally the one after the sentence claiming Kratos regained “his old strength within mere seconds.” Much like the status of hope within Kratos after the events of God of War 3 (WPHR, Section 1), this contradicts claims made for Kratos and makes following the events of the games impossible. Kratos cannot both slowly regain his old powers over the course of a journey and regain his old powers within seconds of a single battle.
3. “...as confirmed by numerous other statements.” The funny thing about this section is that it flat out disproves the claims made earlier in this section. Kratos is not a shell of himself. "He's still a highly competent warrior, but is constantly restraining himself…”, “...Kratos is supposed to be a little rusty in this fight…”, "You get the sense that he's older and that he's kind of shaking off the cobwebs", and “"...when Baldur shows up, that's like knocking the rust off. So he was a little rusty..." are much more nuanced and restrained than “he was a shell of his former self.” If the author of that statement was interested in using an idiom to describe Kratos' state accurately, they would have had a plethora of statements to choose from. (Saying Kratos was rusty would be the most accurate choice, given that it appears multiple times throughout those cited statements.) I am comfortable concluding that their word choice in NEI Section 3 (that’s this section btw [Fuji Editorial Moment]) was intentional, deliberate, and inaccurate. Kratos likewise regains his old strength over the course of GOW 2018 instead of during his first fight with Baldur. Eric Williams literally says as much in his interview: “as that game progresses, the rust really starts to come off... inbetween finishing Baldur off in the last game... he and Atreus have been training, so this is Kratos getting really back into it."

For a TL;DR of the points made -

• Kratos did not “effortlessly overpower” Baldur, as after the fight he is severely wounded, limping, and questioning of his ability to carry out the journey before him.
• Kratos’ improvement is done over the course of a long journey, contradicting the previous claim that he reclaimed his lost strength in a matter of seconds.
• Kratos’ improvement is treated as him just being a little rusty and getting back into the swing of things, rather than developing faster than normal. It’s like how you never forget how to ride a bike, except replace “ride” with “slaughter” and “bike” with “gods”.

Agreed. The evidence provided for this contains internal contradictions, the fight against Baldur is very clearly not effortless, and Kratos having such an ability directly counters the plot line of the 2018 game.

Resistance to Telepathy & Reactive Evolution [Norse & Ragnarok Keys]​

For the record, the Atreus thing is valid, so resistance to telepathy stays (but is somewhat nerfed). These both stem from Kratos adapting to and resisting Heimdall’s attempts to read his mind. This is, devoid of context, fine. The problem is that in this fight, Kratos wields the Draupnir spear, a weapon forged specifically to counter Heimdall's abilities by overloading his senses. You can't really take an instance of Kratos wielding his Anti-Heimdall spear (the spear forged for the purpose of fucking over Heimdall) and use that to prove that Kratos wreck's Heimdall's shit innately. There's also the problem of how, if Kratos can just resist/adapt Heimdall's hax by himself, then him needing the Draupnir spear at all makes 0 goddamn sense.

Agreed, this doesn't really make any sense. If Kratos could resist these abilities, the entire plotline of him seeking out Draupnir becomes meaningless. "Resistance to Reactive Evolution" also inherently makes no sense. If you can deactivate someone's reactive evolution, that'd just be powernull.

Resistance to Sleep Manipulation [Ragnarok Key]​

Credit to Dammerung again, because I’m lazy and couldn’t think of anything new to add anyways.

"Sleep Manipulation (Scaling from his Demigod and God selves. Has no issues carrying around Slumber Stones, which can put its victim into an eternal sleep, and can comfortably wear the Steinbjorn Armor, which is forged of said stones.” The item description for the slumber stones does not say that they put their victims into an eternal sleep. The item description reads "The magic that maintained their owner's eternal slumber still courses through these fragments,” The usage of term maintained indicates that the slumber stones perpetuated the state, but do not cause it on their own.

Agreed. Without evidence that other people would fall asleep due to touching these, this doesn't constitute a resistance.

Resistance Negation/Reactive Evolution​

I have no idea why this is RE in the first place, but I’ll just roll with it for now. The feat comes from GoW 3, where Zeus hurls a lightning bolt at Kratos, and he becomes unable to resist the waters of the River Styx. Okay, sure. If Kratos resists the waters of the River Styx, this would indeed be resistance negation. So why does Kratos have that resistance? Well, it’s from this scene, where he falls… and then there’s a hard cut to him being chained to a stone wall (he is also very dry, which would not be the case if he was wading through a river mere moments ago). It also specifies that it kills anything that drinks from the river; There is no implication that contact alone will kill you (just like how it’s unsafe to drink pool water, but nobody’s out here dying from going swimming in a pool), nor is there an implication that Kratos got really thirsty in the Underworld and decided to take a sip. There is no resistance here, so Zeus doesn’t need to negate anything for Kratos to get BTFO’d. Pretty simple.

Agreed. RE also makes no sense here.

Resistance to Siren Hax​

Zeus is claimed to be able to resist the voices of the sirens. This is demonstrably false, as you can clearly see him affected by them in the scan provided.

Agreed.

Hermes​

Soul Manipulation [+ Associated Abilities]​

Hermes can ferry souls to the Underworld. That’s it. Being a glorified taxi driver doesn’t inherently have any hax associated with it, get rid of this.

Self-evident.

Persephone​

Mind BFR​

This is from how she can supposedly banish Kratos’ mind to another world. Looking at the in-game context though… She tells Kratos to leave the world behind and be with his wife. I believe most people would view this as something akin to a daydream or hallucination, where Kratos “leaves behind this world” (in a metaphorical sense) and enters a better world found within his imagination. I do not think many people would assume that this involves Persephone banishing Kratos’ consciousness to an alternate reality. All the language used in regards to leaving this world behind is equally applicable when it comes to experiencing some kind of vision, hallucination, or other mental influence that makes it appear as though you are no longer a part of the world (I’ve done a not insubstantial amount of acid, so I can personally attest to this fact).

If this were truly BFR, then it would imply the existence of an alternate dimension where Kratos’ wife never died, and this is something that is never brought up again even though Persephone can apparently just send people there at will. That seems like a far more extreme conclusion to come to than “Persephone made Kratos see his dead wife to put him at ease so he’d let his guard down”.

Naturally, Kratos should also lose his resistance to mind BFR.

Agreed. Also, the scan doesn't even reference Kratos' "mind." It just says she grabs him and tries to dragging him under into another world. If anything I would just assume this is the underworld. It has nothing to do with his consciousness necessarily.

Telekinesis​

Persephone can summon light/energy pillars. There is no reason why this should be telekinesis.

Oceanus​

Life Manipulation & Creation​

This comes from how Oceanus has 3000 offspring. In other words, he has a lot of sex. I mean, I can relate, but it’s not any sort of special hax ability.

Atlas​

Resistance to Electricity Manipulation & Deconstruction​

“Resisted Poseiden’s lightning”- Wrong. He does not fight it off, and there’s only a very brief moment between when Poseiden blasts him and Hades rips out his soul. He is never shown to be “resisting” it in any capacity, and is in fact visibly stunned by the attack while we see the electricity course through his body.

Deimos​

Resistance to Electricity/Soul Manipulation [+ Associated Abilities]​

Deimos resists the Eye of Atlantis- No he doesn’t. You can see right here, he is knocked flat on his back and can’t even so much as approach Kratos while his ass is getting Biden Blasted. Like, why even add this when it’s so blatantly wrong? Do GoW supporters know that anybody can look at the scans they post?

Erinys​

Resistance to Electricity/Soul Manipulation [+ Associated Abilities]​

This stems from how she’s able to resist the effects of Poseiden’s lightning, which can destroy souls. One problem though. She doesn’t resist it. She is explicitly being affected, damaged, pushed back, harmed, or whatever other synonym you can conjure up for “damn she’s kinda getting fucked up by that lightning”.

Thanatos​

Resistance to Electricity/Soul Manipulation [+ Associated Abilities]​

I don’t have a scan for this one since it isn’t linked on Thanatos’ page, but we’re 3-for-3 now on characters “resisting” things by getting blasted to hell and back by them. So I would really like to see a scan where Thanatos actually shrugs off the Eye of Atlantis and its associated abilities, without Kratos using it to blast him into submission.

That said, even in the worst case scenario, it’s not like Thanatos’ page would give him two resistances stemming from being visibly harmed by an attack, right?

Self-evident.

Resistance to Void Manipulation​

oh fuck lol

TL;DR page says he resists his own void, scan says otherwise. There is at least a second feat for this, which involves Thanatos battling Chaos. Not only is this very speculative, since we don’t know if Chaos actually used this ability on Thanatos, it’s also not something that can be “resisted”, since it stems from Chaos willing the Greek world into existence and also existing as a void, rather than weaponizing the void itself to kill people.

Self evident.

Sisters of Fate​

Causality Manipulation & Probability Manipulation​

Let me just post the justification and work my way down from there.
The easy debunk is that everything described here is just fate manipulation, and only resembles probability and causality manipulation due to these abilities sharing some surface level similarities (such as the ability to cause different events and outcomes through indirect manipulation). The more difficult debunk is taking these statements one at a time, which I will do right now.

Causing war does not require altering the past, especially not in this case, where Atropos plots out a series of events that would occur in the future. It also does not alter the odds of something happening, instead decreeing a set outcome (a “fate”, if you will), which is merely fate manipulation.

This one is interesting, because altering possibilities is the one thing written here that sounds like it could be probability hax. Unfortunately, the context shoots this possibility (heh) in the foot. Atropos brings up the topic of Kratos and how they ought to observe him. Clotho refutes this by noting that he isn’t very interesting, stating that they could instead create some new monster for gods and humans to couple with, start a war, or spread diseases to alleviate their boredom. In essence, the “so many possibilities” line merely represents the vast range of options the fates have at their disposal for keeping things interesting, just as I could say there are “so many possibilities” for what I’m having for lunch. That doesn’t mean I’m warping probability to my will, of course, and neither are the fates.

Nothing here describes probability or causality manipulation; Yes, these are potentially mechanisms through which events can be manipulated, but the problem is that the fates already possess such a mechanism in the form of fate manipulation. That is how they accomplish more or less everything they do, so it is reasonable to conclude that they manipulate outcomes by changing fate (because the Sisters of Fate typically operate by changing fate).

I would say that this is just fate manipulation again, but I don’t even need to do that. The scan itself literally says that Lahkesis was manipulating fate/destiny.

So they can counteract fates they don’t like and replace them with those of their own design. This is fine, of course, but it also isn’t probability or causality manipulation. This is also another scan where it is explicitly said that fate manipulation, and not some other force, is at play here.

This is, yet again, a description of fate manipulation being misconstrued as probability and causality manipulation. It literally says they’re tinkering with fate in the scan, I don’t know how you could possibly get anything but fate manipulation from that.

This one’s just funny. Even the justification itself acknowledges this is fatehax, yet somehow pivots to “but it totally isn’t fatehax for some reason!”.

The only thing I could find that would support either ability is a statement that one of the sisters could change Kratos’ past. This is fine in a vacuum, but it’s been established that the sisters possess the ability to travel into the past. Kratos himself uses this power to avert his fate; This is likely what was meant by “changing his past”. Not changing it through some magic power to warp the past, but by going there physically and doing the dirty work yourself. This would be a basic function of time travel, and in no way attributable to some sort of causality hax.

Agreed, these scans are also specious. These are either taken out of context or just plainly do not support the ability they are being used to justify.

BFR​

The Sisters of Fate can send souls to the Underworld. By killing people. That’s what happens when people die, they go to the Underworld. This isn’t BFR at all, it’s just how the afterlife works.

Self evident.

Spear of Destiny​

Transmutation & Durability Negation​

The Spear of Destiny can turn people purple and make them explode. For starters, making a thing purple isn’t transmutation; It’s not turning their flesh to crystal, it’s not shooting a beam that turns enemies into candy, it just… makes them purple. Explosions also don’t negate durability by default, they can be tanked with sufficient durability just fine. Like, a not insubstantial number of durability feats on the site are from surviving explosions.

Agreed.

Soul Manipulation [+ Associated Abilities]​

If Kratos died to the Spear of Destiny, his soul would be forfeit for all eternity. That is how dying works, you die and your soul goes to Hades/the Underworld.

Self evident. Nothing suggests the Spear of Destiny does something special to souls.

Fate Manipulation [+ Associated Abilities]​

We need to talk about the threads of fate. The Spear of Destiny can indeed sever them, and affect people’s fates by extension - However, it is assumed that this is something it is always doing, and not merely an extension of having access to the strings in the first place. The strings of fate are only really found at the Loom of Fate, a highly specific location Kratos only goes to once in the series. The strings of fate are not metaphysical lines connected to every person, they are a mechanism through which their fates can be controlled. Obviously, controlling destiny on a whim using such strings would require having the strings in your possession (or just nearby).

So when Kratos stabs someone with the spear, they’re not getting their destiny obliterated on the spot. That can only happen if their string is cut, which Kratos can only do if he has access to the Loom of Fate (which, 99.9% of the time, he does not). While fate manipulation itself is valid, this caveat (which would make the fate manipulation non-combat applicable) ought to be mentioned, and anybody who survives being hit with the spear should have their fate manipulation resistance removed by extension.

There’s also the simple logical issue of how, if the spear can just do this innately, then the plot of GoW 2 falls apart. Kratos’ driving motivation in GoW 2 is changing his fate, and he intends to seek out the Loom of Fate in order to do so. Kratos acquires the spear well before ever finding the loom; If he could, at any time, sever his own fate, he would have done so. But he obviously didn’t do that.

Finally, some of the fates’ abilities shouldn’t even apply to the spear. Life manipulation comes from weaving new threads to create new life, but the spear can’t do that. It can only sever threads. Same goes for sleep manipulation, empathic manipulation, and age manipulation; Those are achieved via minute alterations to the threads, not just hacking them apart. The spear’s functions are totally different from how the Sisters of Fate usually do things, save for ending a person’s fate.

Agreed, this blatantly contradicts the plot of the game. "Can interact with loom threads" and "inherently has fate manip" are not the same thing.

Empowerment​

The claim is that the Blade of Olympus grows stronger after absorbing life force. There is no indication of this. It just glows brighter.

Agreed. This is just Kratos taking back his own life force.

Non-Physical Interaction​

Zeus uses the blade to turn an entire army to embers. Why is this NPI? What non-physical element is the blade interacting with here?

Self-evident.

Sirens​

Body Puppetry​

Sirens have body puppetry because of this scan, which implies they were controlling Kratos’ physical movements. The context makes this absurd, of course; Kratos is just horny. That’s what sirens do, they manipulate people’s emotions and fill them with lust so they can be lured closer. While Kratos is moving against his will, this is because his body is moving in response to his emotions/state of mind, as bodies are known to do. This would be like giving someone with empathic hax body puppetry by extension because they can make people cry by making them sad.

While sirens don’t have a page, this removal would apply to anybody accepted to resist their abilities, or to anybody who can conjure sirens in combat.

Self-evident.

The sheer magnitude of this revision is obviously going to be an obstacle, but by my estimate every single one of this removals is justified. It may be the case that there are better scans/reasoning for some of these, but as-written the majority of this CRT is simply self-evident. Characters having resistances to things that they are explicitly affected by in a serious manner. Abilities that have absolutely no correlation to the information (like NPI for turning an army to embers, telekinesis for using energy-based spells), and many abilities that have a tenuous connection to the information at hand, but where that information very clearly does not justify it, like Sirens having "body puppetry" or Kratos having "resistance to radiation."

I have not yet read the counter-arguments by Pepsiman. I will do so and respond to them soon, and it is possible that they will change my mind, but right now I can be counted as a full "agree."

 

[CloverDragon03]

And so the counting begins...

Agree: DarkDragonMedeus (same as Planck69), Elizhaa (same as Planck69), LordGriffin1000 (same as Planck69 plus Immortality Negation), Deagonx (fully), Planck69 (Removing Thesus from ESP justification, Body Puppetry for Sirens, Telekinesis for Persephone, Life Manipulation for Oceanus, and Resistances to Helios's Status Effect Inducement; give Zeus limited Resistance to Sirens' ability), KingTempest (same as Planck69), AbaddonTheDisappointment (same as Planck69 plus Immortality Negation, Transmutation, Durability Negation, Power Nullification, Reactive Evolution, Empowerment, Resistance to Power Absorption, and Resistance to Sleep Manipulation)
Disagree: DarkDragonMedeus (same as Planck69), Elizhaa (same as Planck69), LordGriffin1000 (same as Planck69 minus Immortality Negation), Planck69 (literally everything else not in Agree or Neutral), KingTempest (same as Planck69), AbaddonTheDisappointment (same as Planck69 minus abilities mentioned to agree with removing above)
Neutral: DarkDragonMedeus (same as Planck69), Elizhaa (same as Planck69), LordGriffin1000 (same as Planck69), Planck69 (removing Transmutation and Dura Neg for Spear of Destiny and Resistance to Advanced NPI for Power of Hope), KingTempest (same as Planck69), AbaddonTheDisappointment (same as Planck69)

 

[CurrySenpai]

And so the counting begins...

Agree: Deagonx
Disagree:
Neutral:

Wow... not even gonna count me??? the most VALUABLE staff member

 

[CloverDragon03]

Wow... not even gonna count me??? the most VALUABLE staff member

You are a FRAUD

 

[CurrySenpai]

You are a FRAUD

 

[Deagonx]

The context here, is that Kratos sensed a presence of an "apparition"(something that usually relates to ghosts and the like) appearing in the room without anything to necessarily to altert him of that presence.

"Although the axe blade gleamed sharp and deadly within the sunlight, Kratos Instinctively knew that the real weapon was the spear, it had the aura of power, deadly power."

"Took Gaia's warning to heart about the spear since he felt it's power even from this distance."

Kratos Instinctively knew of the spear's deadly power, He literally felt it. And while it's correct he didn't about it's abilities, he had known about it as threat due to his senses and information analysis, not his past experiences.

It's not uncommon in fiction for normal people to "feel" ghostly apparitions near them without requiring a special ability or "feel" another person's power, but this is not generally what ESP is meant for. We could keep it, but it would still have to be "limited" as the implications are too restrained to fall under any of the "possible uses"

The problem with this, is Kratos had killed Legionnaires like that before(Here's a cutscene where he kills them by slashing, if you wanna consider these game mechanics).

Kratos has killed Legionnaires by, slashing, stabing, throwing, and neck breaking, as such, he does indeed negates their immortality.

If he truly isn't negging their immortality, then they would simply regenerate, ressurect, or just survive.

(and immortality type 1 can be negged if you kill them by age, although this isn't something Kratos has done)

The novelization makes it clear that Kratos does not have a special ability to negate their immortality. "The arrows didn't destroy the creatures, but pinning them to the wall like a rabbit on a spit held them in place so that even Athenians could dismember them."

If Kratos had a special negation, then why wouldn't the arrows destroy them? Why would Athenians be able to dismember them? We could say "Well, him saying the Athenians could dismember them doesn't mean they wouldn't survive due to immortality" but then we'd expect to see something like "held them in place so that they were no longer a threat." The context behind their ability makes the meaning very clear. Kratos is pinning them to the wall because he can't simply negate their abilities, but he can put them in such a vulnerable position that even normal people can damage them enough to completely destroy them.

Kratos's power nullification isn’t him nullifying the abilities of the Amulet of Uroboros on him, it's him nullifying the twin's use of it on themselves, as seen by how Kratos's every hit causes them to go back into their true old age, rather then their prime.

As for the ability being passive or not is unimportant, as it's pretty clear that the twins having their age as their prime is something they can do unconsciously as seen in the same scan.

This would merely suggest he is causing them to lose focus or that damage in general causes them to revert. There's no indications this is occurring because Kratos has a special ability to deactivate their magic.

And so the counting begins...

Agree: Deagonx
Disagree:
Neutral:

Fuji has expressed her intention to keep her own tally. You're free to run this tally, but I ask that you simply update this tally rather than commenting a new tally after each individual vote.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean... Sure?

Though I may comment every once in a while if the tally gets buried under the inevitable length of this thread, just so it doesn't get completely lost

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

No, I meant someone unaffiliated with the thread. If Clover is keeping track but not biased one way or the other, then that's fine (though so will have other people from off site keep track as well).

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'll make sure to keep an unbiased tally, yeah. Though, if I make a mistake as far as counting someone or not counting someone goes, anyone's free to let me know

 

[Deagonx]

specially in this verse where abilities work randomly and then just stop working without explanation, like the sisters of fate, which is another instance I disagree with the OP

Can you explain what you mean about the sisters of fate?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This scan doesn't even mention Kratos. Is there a different scan along with it?

IIRC, this is written from Atreus' (Kratos' son) perspective. So when the text says "[my] father", it is referring to Kratos.

Agreed, this doesn't really make any sense. If Kratos could resist these abilities, the entire plotline of him seeking out Draupnir becomes meaningless. "Resistance to Reactive Evolution" also inherently makes no sense. If you can deactivate someone's reactive evolution, that'd just be powernull.

You misunderstand. Kratos has RE for "adapting" to Heimdall's telepathy, when in fact he just wielded the Draupnir spear to counteract him. Nobody has resistance to RE here, that was poor phrasing on my part.

Agreed. Also, the scan doesn't even reference Kratos' "mind." It just says she grabs him and tries to dragging him under into another world. If anything I would just assume this is the underworld. It has nothing to do with his consciousness necessarily.

Kratos' physical body does not move in the scene itself, so I do believe Persephone taking him to another world is meant in a metaphorical sense. The point was to lure him into a false sense of comfort and serenity so he wouldn't fight back against Atlas attempting to crush him.

These minor things aside, thank you for the evaluation, and apologies for the thread's length.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

It's not uncommon in fiction for normal people to "feel" ghostly apparitions near them without requiring a special ability or "feel" another person's power, but this is not generally what ESP is meant for. We could keep it, but it would still have to be "limited" as the implications are too restrained to fall under any of the "possible uses"

Gow souls are not normal regardless, As they are the luck, form, mind and direction of a being. Sensing them would be the same as sensing luck, or someone's mind.

The novelization makes it clear that Kratos does not have a special ability to negate their immortality. "The arrows didn't destroy the creatures, but pinning them to the wall like a rabbit on a spit held them in place so that even Athenians could dismember them."

If Kratos had a special negation, then why wouldn't the arrows destroy them? Why would Athenians be able to dismember them? We could say "Well, him saying the Athenians could dismember them doesn't mean they wouldn't survive due to immortality" but then we'd expect to see something like "held them in place so that they were no longer a threat." The context behind their ability makes the meaning very clear. Kratos is pinning them to the wall because he can't simply negate their abilities, but he can put them in such a vulnerable position that even normal people can damage them enough to completely destroy them.

That's under the assumption that Kratos can use the proposed ability with whatever tool or item he gets his hands on, something with no evidence of.

And regardless, the novel is secondary canon, and is contradicted by the games in this instance.

This would merely suggest he is causing them to lose focus or that damage in general causes them to revert. There's no indications this is occurring because Kratos has a special ability to deactivate their magic.

You can read my other posts with Fuji regarding the subject if you wanna my response to this claim,

But that's what I'm kinda contesting tho.

The twins; were cleary unconscious when Kratos grabbed them, but they were still in their prime. Kratos has to hit them for us to see their true age.

You can't exactly interrupt someone thought process while they are unconscious. And by that logic, you can't interrupt a power that's unconsciously active.

And yes, wog does state that, but they also state later they had used the Amulet of Uroboros to its fullest extent, suggesting that these limits are holding back types of limits, especially when it's made clear the twins were toying around.

was knocked out, Pollux is seemingly at a similar state but managed to awake (Pollux is one in the chest) at the last moment.

I'm not going to participate in the thread anymore other than the need of asking for clarification or the like. I might come back if I get the time and motivation for the other stuff I didn't tackle but other then that I won't be participating in the thread that much.

 

[Deagonx]

You misunderstand. Kratos has RE for "adapting" to Heimdall's telepathy, when in fact he just wielded the Draupnir spear to counteract him. Nobody has resistance to RE here, that was poor phrasing on my part.

I wasn't saying resistance to RE, I am saying Kratos doesn't have resistance to telepathy nor can he "evolve" to resist it, and the notion that he could renders the search for Draupnir nonsensical.

Kratos' physical body does not move in the scene itself, so I do believe Persephone taking him to another world is meant in a metaphorical sense. The point was to lure him into a false sense of comfort and serenity so he wouldn't fight back against Atlas attempting to crush him.

Yeah, it's too vague to know for sure what is being intended. It could even be a form of soul manip, rather than mind manip (trying to literally drag his soul down to another world) or etc. In any case "Mind BFR" is specious.

Gow souls are not normal regardless, As they are the luck, form, mind and direction of a being. Sensing them would be the same as sensing luck, or someone's mind.

This would not change the reasoning I provided for it being limited, and the fact that souls are said to be made up of those four "parts" does not mean that it does not also have otherwise standard attributes of souls. i.e. "more than the sum of its parts." People sensing the presence of ghosts is fairly normal.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I wasn't saying resistance to RE, I am saying Kratos doesn't have resistance to telepathy nor can he "evolve" to resist it, and the notion that he could renders the search for Draupnir nonsensical.

Stepping in for this-- Resistance=/=Immunity, Heimdall could still get very limited things from Kratos, and we saw how he treated Kratos' attacks until he got AoE'd

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

I wasn't saying resistance to RE, I am saying Kratos doesn't have resistance to telepathy nor can he "evolve" to resist it, and the notion that he could renders the search for Draupnir nonsensical.

Kratos resists telepathy

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

And again, two other failed QTEs show the opposite,

Kratos would resist regardless of that specific QTE.

To respond to this real quick, neither scan shows the twins using the amulet against Kratos. They simply break out of his grip and perform a series of regular attacks against him. The QTE where Kratos dies is the only time he is fully exposed to the amulet's full power.

Gow souls are not normal regardless, As they are the luck, form, mind and direction of a being. Sensing them would be the same as sensing luck, or someone's mind.

Those are a soul's constituent parts, yes, but that doesn't mean GoW souls are inherently harder to sense than souls in any other fictional verse.

That's under the assumption that Kratos can use the proposed ability with whatever tool or item he gets his hands on, something with no evidence of.

And regardless, the novel is secondary canon, and is contradicted by the games in this instance.

Except the games actually support the novels by showing that Kratos must incapacitate such enemies first, before following up with a separate attack to truly destroy them.

That's not the quote I was referring to, I was referring to this,

"They have limitations on what they can do with it. As the fight progressed, they used it to its fullest extent "

Yes, but the earlier quote about them using it "to the fullest extent they were capable of" contextualizes that statement and shows that "the fullest extent" in this case still has limitations in place.

Sure, but pinned was also used. They even insist on that specific instant being where Kratos was pinned.

This is, again, contextualized by the statements of time slowing, supported by how the first person POV of Kratos has him visibly moving somewhat and tracking the twins' movements as they teleport. He is not frozen in place, even if he is "pinned", as the devs describe it.

I wasn't saying resistance to RE, I am saying Kratos doesn't have resistance to telepathy nor can he "evolve" to resist it, and the notion that he could renders the search for Draupnir nonsensical.

Ah, my bad.

Kratos resists telepathy

Not from Heimdall though.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

Not from Heimdall though.

Let me have my fun, wanted to see how far that was gonna go

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

This would not change the reasoning I provided for it being limited, and the fact that souls are said to be made up of those four "parts" does not mean that it does not also have otherwise standard attributes of souls. i.e. "more than the sum of its parts." People sensing the presence of ghosts is fairly normal.

People sensing ghosts who are made up of luck, concepts, minds, and direction is not normal. And fiction having it as a common thing is not a counter, when the subject being sensed is not your average soul to begin with.

 

[Deagonx]

People sensing ghosts who are made up of luck, concepts, minds, and direction is not normal.

It needn't be normal. As I said, even if we accepted such an interpretation this would still be Limited ESP.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'd prefer if we didn't get too hung up over this point, as I just wanted to remove bad justifications from Kratos' ESP and not get rid of it entirely.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

I'm gonna have a retort, as well as a response for the full op later (if other gow supporters don't precede me).

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

What I got from a quick read is that this thread in a nutshell is "X didn't show absolute immunity thus his resistances are null and void".

That's something we don't do for obvious reasons.

 

[Deagonx]

What I got from a quick read is that this thread in a nutshell is "X didn't show absolute immunity thus his resistances are null and void".

None of the proposed removals were based on a lack of absolute immunity but rather (for the resistances) cases where the person with the resistance was significantly hurt or affected by the thing they had a resistance for. Or in other cases, resistances to abilities they literally dodged or were just not hit with in the first place.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah, what Deagon said. Much more eloquent than what I was typing.

Also, it's not a matter of just "being affected". There are multiple examples of Kratos dying (or saying he would die) in response to certain hax. How are you going to argue in good faith that literally dying constitutes a resistance?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

But what about Zeus, Poseidon, and the like? They appear to resist their own abilities, right? Uh, not quite. Both scans of Zeus “resisting” his own lightning showcase him being damaged and staggered by it, which doesn’t really read as him “resisting” it in any capacity. Same goes for Hades; His attacks, when reflected back at him, knock him back and cause him to roar in pain.

Literally the beginning of the thread and it's already a "didn't display absolute immunity so he shouldn't get resistances" case

Yeah, what Deagon said. Much more eloquent than what I was typing.
Also, it's not a matter of just "being affected". There are multiple examples of Kratos dying (or saying he would die) in response to certain hax. How are you going to argue in good faith that literally dying constitutes a resistance?

You mean stuff like the obviously non canonical deaths after failing a QTE? Great argument.

Still, there is one place we can see Kratos clearly exposed to their powers - A failed QTE. So, does Kratos no-sell their powers regardless and piledrive them into the ground? Is he left damaged or dazed, but still able to fight despite the power of time itself being brought to bear against him? No. He instantly dies. This justification is so bad it almost makes me want to “resist poison manipulation” (ie; drink bleach and instantly kill myself).

This is what I mean. How is a failed, non canonical QTE going to be used as proof he doesn't resist something? That's just plain dumb and actually an argument from bad faith. In fact it's the complete opposite, canonically he didn't die, he overpowered the amulet being used on his ass and then killed Castor and Pollux.


And like I said, the thread goes on and on with several similar cases. I just can't understand how those arguments are being entertained (with the exception of a certain someone but we all know how that person acts)

 

[Deagonx]

Literally the beginning of the thread and it's already a "didn't display absolute immunity so he shouldn't get resistances" case

If something knocks you back and causes you to roar and pain, by what measure are we claiming they are "resisting it?" Yes, it is obviously true that this is a "lack of absolute immunity," but the "lack of absolute immunity" is not the point being made, it is not the argument for why the resistance should be removed. The argument is that the lightning affects him in the exact manner we would expect it to affect him if he didn't have resistance.

This is what I mean. How is a failed, non canonical QTE going to be used as proof he doesn't resist something? That's just plain dumb and actually an argument from bad faith. In fact it's the complete opposite, canonically he didn't die, he overpowered the amulet being used on his ass and then killed Castor and Pollux.

Because the very existence of the Quick Time Event entails the fact that he does not have this resistance. If he did, you wouldn't need to react quickly. Nothing would happen to him anyways.

I just can't understand how those arguments are being entertained (with the exception of a certain someone but we all know how that person acts)

If you include inflammatory remarks like this in future comments, I am simply going to delete them.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Because the very existence of the Quick Time Event entails the fact that he does not have this resistance. If he did, you wouldn't need to react quickly. Nothing would happen to him anyways.

Not canon.

As in "Can't be used"

Not "well it shows this!"

 

[CurrySenpai]

Not canon.

As in "Can't be used"

Not "well it shows this!"

What makes these QTEs “not canon” they are something that occurs in game so how do you verifiably declare it non canon.

 

[Deagonx]

Not canon.

As in "Can't be used"

Not "well it shows this!"

The basic concept of a video game involves thing occurring in various ways, otherwise it'd just be a movie. If a VN has a "bad ending" that shows how something in the verse works mechanically, the fact that the bad ending is not the canonical ending doesn't mean that the information provided within it about mechanics is false or inapplicable.

Similarly, if Kratos uses a certain ability on an opponent, and they resist the ability, but the "canonical" version of the fight didn't involve him using that ability on that opponent at all, we wouldn't declare that we have no applicable information about whether or not they can resist that ability. We'd say that we know that they can.

In this case, the game spells out the consequence of failing to react quickly enough to this ability. It instantly kills Kratos.