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Black Clover : Fleeting world in darkness (speed downgrade)

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This post was continue from this, this, this and this.


And yes according what our new standart multiplier it says that we need direct statements for multipliers. No statement means no multiplier. Plus this is was high multiplier which even statement alone itself doesn't enough to be, and need extra evidence for it.
But no one of those thread give us feats for it, also no one in universe directly give statement about "more magic = more speed"
Almost of them just matchlogy without any based of statement. Even using this logic, it's still unquantifiable due no even single statement was said it give exponential 2x times from before. Except zora counter trap that was directly state give double to force and speed, but keep in mind zora counter trap was a spell not magic capacity, so it's not scale to "more magic = more speed" logic. All of those feats was sent just simply "higher" or "far higher" rating.

Also previously, i already ask to DT before a month ago about multiplier relatement, and he said
"no matter how powerful amplification, it won't give multiplier if there is no relate statement although it has visually proof" in other word just "higher" rating.



Some of Inconsistent

  1. Dante in his 100% devil power can't react to suprised attack from Magna.
    i won't say this is was offguard, Because dante in his 60% form can react to yami dimension slash from out of nowhere instantly. With logic "more magic = more speed" he should constantly can dodge magna attack effortlessly due magna here was weaker than all post time skip character before he doing his soul chain spell.
  2. Nacht in his weaker state after his magic get burned/freezed by naalith, he can catch naalith who previously he state himself if naalith has great magic and flew away after facing asta even asta state himself state of naalith are fast. Simply with before logic he should be can't reach naalith due his magic get weaker or not even match them.
  3. Lucifero, who got stated lucifero although in half body, still possesed greatest magic in the world, he should the faster one that even DU asta can match his speed. But he still can get matched by yami in his unknown state after become qlipthoth sacrifice, Same logic with above lucifero should be become the fastest that shouldn't other character can match him in term speed except TDU asta. But yami in his unknown state along with natch can keep up although they're below from asta that was lucifero easily intercept attack from DU asta.


Summary

All of these multiplier should be remove and replace by old multiplier due no solid and reliable statement and multiplier itself must have direct statements instead of being reasoned from something else. As page multiplier write down.
 
I'll go in detail later but:

1: The multiplier crt that was accepted wasn't about character A being faster than Character B as long as they hare more Magic Power. In fact I made sure that having more Magic Power than someone else doesn't equate to being faster than them, but instead that "boosting your Magic Power = boosting your power and speed", otherwise base Noelle would have been scaled to be faster than most of the cast which isn't the case and thus I would have disagreed with the upgrade. So basing your argument on Magna tagging Dante despite having less magic is pointless.

2: I don't see your argument with this one ngl

3: Again no one said that those with more Magic Power are faster than those with less

To me it seems you misunderstood the whole revision to begin with
 
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Imagine I actually got a more magic = more speed crt passed and someone uses sneak attacks as “inconsistencies” to downgrade it.
 
That attack wasn't directly aim at dante it was just to stop him from getting closer to them and he only noticed it after it appeared in front of his view.
Nacht in his weaker state after his magic get burned/freezed by naalith, he can catch naalith.
The only reason he succeeded, is because natch appeared to an area where they can't see him i.e their back and not to mention they are too focused on asta at that time.
Lucifero, who got stated lucifero although in half body, still possesed greatest magic in the world
He was talking about his gravity magic being the greatest and not his mana
 
No statement means no multiplier
Well there's a statement, you simply refused to correlate and contextualise it to the tiering basis
Except zora
Actually, it's two and you're simplifying Zora's Depiction to negate the mechanics. Nevertheless...

Zora, is capable of using Trap Magic to double the speed and force of any attack as stated.Speed and force aren't just doubled without Zora doubling the Magic fueling the attack. To solidify, Asta mentioned the mechanics of the Spell to Zora which Zora indirectly confirmed as he did not dispute that it is what he does but replied by saying it won't be enough to defeat their opponent. This alone properly confirms the author adopts the proportional Multiplication to energy and speed. Futherly into the series, Zora once again validates this analogy when he took a hit from Lucifero's physical punch(which was infused with magic power) and stated he is going to repay it doubled the original.The attack was a physical attack which he took its energy from and returned it still as a physical attack but doubled the energy (magic) within that Physical attack to energise the arm to move two times faster and two times potent. It's a simple analogy and not something explicit to Zora alone, the only explicit Ideology would be he's the only one with such ability.

Magna was able to come up with an unconventional spell which works by linking his Soul with his opponent, then adds up both their magic power and splits up the sum evenly between him and his opponent. The implication of this is the fact that Manga would scale infinitely weaker, slower and inferior to a Dante (Base Dante could easily react to base Dante who Magna would Downscale from). Nevertheless, when Manga linked his Soul to Dante, the difference between their magic power was visibly illustrated by the author to be a "1000 - 2" difference implying a 500x difference between both. Magna added it (1002) and splitted it evenly between both of them(501 each) and immediately became relative to Dante in Speed and engaged a close combat. This is heavily Implying that their speed became Equalised as soon as their magic power became Equalised. In other words, Magna Speed proportionally increased by the energy increase.

Your magna tagging Dante is simply illogical
if you refuse to accept he was caught off guard, then you have to accept it's a simple Outlier or CIS, whatever u gonna call em. There's no possible way Magna is relative to 100% Dante in anything conventional, that's absurd.

Then your rest points are based on "More Magic = You're the automatic Fastest" which is completely wrong making your premise inapplicable
 
He was talking about his gravity magic being the greatest and not his mana

By the way he was referring to his magic power.

also there is no need to provide counter arguments to the examples of a wrong premise.
 
By the way he was referring to his magic power.

also there is no need to provide counter arguments to the examples of a wrong premise.
I'm just correcting him and also do you mean mana? I also believe that at first but what he said prior to that made me believe he was referring to his gravity magic which makes sense cause gravity can almost warp everything.
 
By the way he was referring to his magic power.
I know we should use the japanese text, but in spanish it can be considered that Luci is talking about his type of magic and Lucius corrects him saying "ok, but we, humans, use magic better than devils"

So, if every version is gonna vary, go to the japanese
 
I'm just correcting him

Thats fine but just letting you know you don’t have to.


I also believe that at first but what he said prior to that made me believe he was referring to his gravity magic which makes sense cause gravity can almost counter/bend everything.

What did he say prior? Explain🤔. Cuz all he said prior was “impossible” or “inconceivable” which doesn’t really mean anything



I know we should use the japanese text, but in spanish it can be considered that Luci is talking about his type of magic and Lucius corrects him saying "ok, but we, humans, use magic better than devils"

So, if every version is gonna vary, go to the japanese

With you it’s not even a prior statement it’s Lucius statement which can be dumbed down to “Skill > Raw power”

In English he says “Humans have the most brilliant magic while you have raw magic power”
 
I know we should use the japanese text, but in spanish it can be considered that Luci is talking about his type of magic and Lucius corrects him saying "ok, but we, humans, use magic better than devils"

So, if every version is gonna vary, go to the japanese
In Fan TL it's

"The most powerful magic in the world" [1]
 
It means even if he is not at his peak condition he still has gravity magic which is the strongest type of magic in the world, yes.
 
Hence why he is the strongest devil in the underworld gravity > time > space and gravity is considered as an unnatural.
 
Last time I argued against mftl clover fans made up all these assumptions to say why I was wrong.

Asta out of his own mouth said he's not wizard king level.

Wizard king himself saying patri's light speed magic is the fastest magic. Which the wizard king himself stated he can only keep with using precog and time manipulation.

Clearly no one in clover is mftl it's just a just a bunch of inflated calcs
 
Hence why he is the strongest devil in the underworld gravity > time > space and gravity is considered as an unnatural.

Gravity magic isn't the best magic type. It can easily be resisted with magic power comparable to his (remember Magna?)

His power needs to be superior to everyone to have the best magic. That's why I said I didn't care which translation is correct.

Also, we see time magic neg gravity on panel lol

So yeah there is no best magic. The more magic you have the more haxed your magic type becomes.
 
Gravity magic isn't the best magic type. It can easily be resisted with magic power comparable to his (remember Magna?)

His power needs to be superior to everyone to have the best magic. That's why I said I didn't care which translation is correct.

Also, we see time magic neg gravity on panel lol

So yeah there is no best magic. The more magic you have the more haxed your magic type becomes.
Magna only resisted the normal one. And I and every BC fans already know that, idk how to put it into a words but just think of light magic.
 
Magna only resisted the normal one. And I and every BC fans already know that, idk how to put it into a words but just think of light magic.

wdym “normal one”.

Also let’s not derail the thread, you on discord?
 
Okay sorry for late response due i am bit busy with college stuff

But bruh, the inconsintent part is just mere supporting example. If it can be then it's good

1: The multiplier crt that was accepted wasn't about character A being faster than Character B as long as they hare more Magic Power. In fact I made sure that having more Magic Power than someone else doesn't equate to being faster than them, but instead that "boosting your Magic Power = boosting your power and speed", otherwise base Noelle would have been scaled to be faster than most of the cast which isn't the case and thus I would have disagreed with the upgrade. So basing your argument on Magna tagging Dante despite having less magic is pointless.

To me it seems you misunderstood the whole revision to begin with
Maybe i was misunderstood, but it doesn't change op about multiplier problem is.

The main problem is no direct statement explaining those thing give 2x boosting speed then before. Even statement like "increasing speed" alone not even enough to give 2x than before.

We have pokemon verse (sorry to associate this with another verse) for best example where most of them have increasing speed move ability but it doesn't directly give 2 times than before, even there's "extreme speed" move called. It just like higher or far higher rating at best.


Well there's a statement, you simply refused to correlate and contextualise it to the tiering basis

"Zora, is capable of using Trap Magic to double the speed and force of any attack as stated.Speed and force aren't just doubled without Zora doubling the Magic fueling the attack. To solidify, Asta mentioned the mechanics of the Spell to Zora which Zora indirectly confirmed as he did not dispute that it is what he does but replied by saying it won't be enough to defeat their opponent. This alone properly confirms the author adopts the proportional Multiplication to energy and speed.
Okay first, clearly zora only referring that he can't use it because they will not get the momentum of 5 elf attack at once as he clearly state. He doesn't even mention about speed relatement here, because he and asta directly mean about about magic that will reflected doesn't enough to defeat them because they get massive amp from elf unlike various holy knight at previous arc that he easily defeat after he reflected their magic force. It doesn't even claim anything about the whole proportional magic can translate to speed. Even it does still not giving directly two times for every magic amplifies to give directly 2x multiplier.
Futherly into the series, Zora once again validates this analogy when he took a hit from Lucifero's physical punch(which was infused with magic power) and stated he is going to repay it doubled the original.The attack was a physical attack which he took its energy from and returned it still as a physical attack but doubled the energy (magic) within that Physical attack to energise the arm to move two times faster and two times potent. It's a simple analogy and not something explicit to Zora alone, the only explicit Ideology would be he's the only one with such ability."
Second, when he took lucifero punch
he absorbs and concentrates the force into his hand fist so he can turn it to lucifero. It's not directly physical because he just transferred magic to his fist unlike normally he cast this counter trap magic. Plus this he using along with nero sealing mana method magic as supporting him. Which we known it's can seal magic and devil power. Even after repay back the fist, his hand can't hold it as the result magic he took.

I can't see it tbh, it yes does give double speed and force as i agree and already applied in past crt god tier speed in lucifero part, but i can't see why does it's translated to all magic? While asta and zora himself only state reffering to his spesifically countertrap magic spell. It's doesn't even state once it's can be applied to other.
Actually, it's two and you're simplifying Zora's Depiction to negate the mechanics. Nevertheless... "Magna was able to come up with an unconventional spell which works by linking his Soul with his opponent, then adds up both their magic power and splits up the sum evenly between him and his opponent. The implication of this is the fact that Manga would scale infinitely weaker, slower and inferior to a Dante (Base Dante could easily react to base Dante who Magna would Downscale from). Nevertheless, when Manga linked his Soul to Dante, the difference between their magic power was visibly illustrated by the author to be a "1000 - 2" difference implying a 500x difference between both. Magna added it (1002) and splitted it evenly between both of them(501 each) and immediately became relative to Dante in Speed and engaged a close combat. This is heavily Implying that their speed became Equalised as soon as their magic power became Equalised. In other words, Magna Speed proportionally increased by the energy increase."
Two, as soul chain can make his magic and dante devil power magic equalized. I believe magic part he stated referring to dante statistics growing rose after gaining devil power magic percentage per percentage. As we know he reach his peak devil power after qlipthoth accident. Without devil magic dark triad will have no spesifically physical at this rate. Magne simply take half of his stat to make him equally to dante. If it referring to otherwise magic, damn dude doesn't he will get the gravity magic? But no he only gaining the statistic part.

I am also curious why in the previous crt the conclusion take god tier in 12000c but ended in 60000c in the verse profile?
 
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A year ago on FB I always used Jokes where Asta and Yami vs Dante, where within 50 seconds (timeframe of Asta's Demon form limit) constantly and sequentially their movement from scan to scan was very minor and it was funny for characters who have FTL movement.
 
Agree with deleting the multiplier

Always thought it was weird that a verse could get to 12000x FTL off of a 2x FTL calc without any explicit multipliers and just assumptions
 
Is the issue here the inconsistency of a concrete multiplier or is it that a multiplier shouldn’t be used in the first place for not meeting standards?
 
Okay first, clearly zora only referring that he can't use it because they will not get the momentum of 5 elf attack at once as he clearly state. He doesn't even mention about speed relatement here, because he and asta directly mean about about magic that will reflected doesn't enough to defeat them because they get massive amp from elf unlike various holy knight at previous arc that he easily defeat after he reflected their magic force. It doesn't even claim anything about the whole proportional magic can translate to speed. Even it does still not giving directly two times for every magic amplifies to give directly 2x multiplier.
K, did you completely misinterpret or something?
The point there wasn't about if speed was mentioned to double and quadruple via Zora's Spell. No, that has already been previously stated, power and speed is always doubled so no one is looking for him stating it everytime. Anyways, the point there was how Asta mentioned the mechanics of spell "Double magic and send back" then he didn't refute it but simply talked about how it goes won't be enough to they went for the quad. That proves he doubles magic power behind it for speed and strength to become proportionally affected.
Second, when he took lucifero punch
he absorbs and concentrates the force into his hand fist so he can turn it to lucifero. It's not directly physical because he just transferred magic to his fist unlike normally he cast this counter trap magic. Plus this he using along with nero sealing mana method magic as supporting him. Which we known it's can seal magic and devil power. Even after repay back the fist, his hand can't hold it as the result magic he took.
The physicality I meant was simply his first returning back. We're all aware it was the magic he took it and doubled
That still supports the notion of doubling the Magic doubled speed as to how his abilities works
While asta and zora himself only state reffering to his spesifically countertrap magic spell. It's doesn't even state once it's can be applied to other.
Zora's Spell is the only spell that doubles speed and force. How he does it is what matters. And how he does it is applicable to Evey Quantifiable increase.
Two, as soul chain can make his magic and dante devil power magic equalized. I believe magic part he stated referring to dante statistics growing rose after gaining devil power magic percentage per percentage. As we know he reach his peak devil power after qlipthoth accident. Without devil magic dark triad will have no spesifically physical at this rate. Magne simply take half of his stat to make him equally to dante. If it referring to otherwise magic, damn dude doesn't he will get the gravity magic? But no he only gaining the statistic part.
I can't even make out what u tryna imply here.
How did Magna equate stats without equating Magic?
Magna stated "And Split Our Magic Equally".
You can't simply negate that based on your personal feelings and say "he was not refering to magic"
And your other analogy is a Fallacy, Lucuis didn't gain Gravity Magic after he got half of Lucifero's Magic. So no again, Magna didn't have to possess gravity Magic because he splitted Magic power between himself and Dante.
 
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Maybe i was misunderstood, but it doesn't change op about multiplier problem is.

The main problem is no direct statement explaining those thing give 2x boosting speed then before. Even statement like "increasing speed" alone not even enough to give 2x than before.

We have pokemon verse (sorry to associate this with another verse) for best example where most of them have increasing speed move ability but it doesn't directly give 2 times than before, even there's "extreme speed" move called. It just like higher or far higher rating at best.

This shows that you still don't understand or even read anything that was being discussed in those previous threads.

Zora's spell doubles magic to double the speed and power before sending it back to the enemy.

And nobody is using "increasing speed" as a basis for 2x or any multiplier as a matter of fact.

It's simple. Since we know that a magic boost is directly proportional to speed and power boost from Zora and Magna's abilities. Then the logic that all valid magic multipliers are not just power multipliers but also speed multipliers holds water.


Okay first, clearly zora only referring that he can't use it because they will not get the momentum of 5 elf attack at once as he clearly state. He doesn't even mention about speed relatement here, because he and asta directly mean about about magic that will reflected doesn't enough to defeat them because they get massive amp from elf unlike various holy knight at previous arc that he easily defeat after he reflected their magic force. It doesn't even claim anything about the whole proportional magic can translate to speed. Even it does still not giving directly two times for every magic amplifies to give directly 2x multiplier.

So basically your angle is to ignore how the spell works. Zora's spell works by doubling the magic of attacks and sending them back at double the speed and power. Since we know how Zora's spell works it doesn't have to be stated over and over again. A 2x magic boost = A 2x speed boost.

I can't see it tbh, it yes does give double speed and force as i agree and already applied in past crt god tier speed in lucifero part, but i can't see why does it's translated to all magic? While asta and zora himself only state reffering to his spesifically countertrap magic spell. It's doesn't even state once it's can be applied to other.


To prove that a quantifiable magic multiplier is a quantifiable speed multiplier. I used Zora and Magna's abilities to manipulate magic power. Zora doubles magic power to double speed while Magna equalizes magic power between himself and Dante so he can fight on par with Dante.



Two, as soul chain can make his magic and dante devil power magic equalized. I believe magic part he stated referring to dante statistics growing rose after gaining devil power magic percentage per percentage. As we know he reach his peak devil power after qlipthoth accident. Without devil magic dark triad will have no spesifically physical at this rate. Magne simply take half of his stat to make him equally to dante. If it referring to otherwise magic, damn dude doesn't he will get the gravity magic? But no he only gaining the statistic part.

Magna receives half magic power while Dante's magic power is reduced by half. That's why their stats are equalized.
 
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