Regulus Corneas Acausality| Re:Zero (NEED STAFF)

[Lloydblitzed]

Can someone summarize all the main counter arguments/arguments against the OP

 

[Fezzih_007]

Can someone summarize all the main counter arguments/arguments against the OP

I can link this thread, and you should be good to go, since is the same argument for Acasuality that got rejected before.

 

[Nonynho]

Good afternoon from Brazil, imma adress the answers to my post

Is the last part troll? Did you like forget that they turned off his ability for that to happen or what? Al and Subaru both have time travel too, it’s unknown how Regulus interacts with it though.

I mean that was when he was with his authority disabled. Also if you argue that he was still pushed around with his authority on:
"Regulus' only gets knocked back because he allows it to happen with his authority,"

idk, maybe if it said "possibly limited aca5", but i saw people saying he gets affected by other haxes such as an example of law working on him, so i think further analysis would bring up more anti-feats than stuff furthering this line of thought

No offense to zab, but I believe he didn't explain, represent, or debate the argument properly. And I believe my argument has some minor distinctions. Thus I made this, beating Zab on this topic isn't equivalent to beating me here. So, the discussion will be reopened.

fair enough. Will admit i skimmed through because i saw them as a bit similar, but if you say so i'll properly read it and answer accordingly

RTZ Larp check.

Welp, this type of acausality is the most binary featwise, either you have a solid claim on it or nah
RTZ is the literal only traveling back to time (at least that i can remember of rn) so when has him or his authority even been shown to not being affected by changes to the past?
Same for aca2, just change the end of the phrasis to "future"

Anyways, we do have more instances, such as Matrix.

where i'm reading rn i haven't met Aldebaran yet, sorry for the ignorance lol

While it's true we haven't seen a direct onscreen attempt to rewrite his past, we can definitely infer so from the pride IF, and perhaps early arc 5.

please bring up scans leading you to infer such and maybe i'll back up a "possibly aca1&2"

 

[Godslayermeli]

Because the condition for Victim of the Domain is that Al must remain within a metaphorical Domain around a set around a predefined set of coordinates chosen by Al, within which his death triggers the world to reset back to that predefined point in time.


It's "well someone stopped in time logically should-" which is not enough evidence for an ability. It would need a definite feat or statement.


This is a really terrible response. You didn't actually address any of the arguments and scans Tayman presented which clearly favour that Domain loops the world, just as long as Al is within the defined matrix. You sound like you care more about the idea of debating than you do about accurately indexing Re:Zero. Arguing like a debatebro instead of actually addressing points are unlikely to convince staff that your claims are legitimate.

I think you should actually consider the massive amount of evidence that Domain affects the world, and re-evaluate your position on this matter that doesn't even mean much to your CRT's topic.

Zabazab icl go ahead and look at either my responses or Hercules, there's still like 3 arguments directly against it (the reductio's) the scans are still in question, and the alleged massive amount of evidence... ...is still in question.

Also FYI, the alleged “debatebro” accusation isn't whatever you think it is, if you think I'm just spamming philosophy or logic or the likes; that is a very very incorrect interpretation. The arguments are simply formal to put my premises into an easier to understand format, they're a direct response to what you said.

 

[Godslayermeli]

I can link this thread, and you should be good to go, since is the same argument for Acasuality that got rejected before.

It isn't the same argument icl

 

[Nonynho]

First and foremost, Regulus Corneas's ability works by stopping time within his own body. This frees him from all physical limitations, concepts, and even laws of the world. This also has the effect of stopping all means of change within himself.

Given the evidence, it seems very clear and that he either (1) operates on a seperate system of cause and effect, or (2) operates without cause and effect while lion heart is active. Given that, an given further context from the series, it seems that (1) is more probable, and hence, type 4 is as well. The reason we say type 4 is more probable is due to the limitations of his ability. Being that lionheart needs to be active for this to work; thus, instead of being devoid of causality as a whole, it seems far more likely that he simply operates on a different level of causality, hence qualifying for type 4. This is consistent with the fact that he was utterly immune to physical attacks, magical attacks, among others.

First and foremost: where are this scans from? Were they validated by translators from our wiki such as the goat @RaikiKurohane99?

Also very important, everything you provided indicates someone absurdly prideful who's boasting themselves with the narration... Like, are we really going to trust 100% that he can ignore the laws of the world because this guy said so?

 

[Godslayermeli]

Can someone summarize all the main counter arguments/arguments against the OP

There haven't been any major ones, the only arguments against this CRT have been targeting the type 1/2 which I said is self admittedly just an interference, it's likely rather than certain. The main focus of this CRT is type 4; and nobody has provided a counter argument besides linking the former thread, which, icl, holds no relevance as the arguments are similar, but are frames different and have different evidence. It's like attacking an argument that argues Paris is the greatest city because you beat someone else on the topic.

 

[Godslayermeli]

First and foremost: where are this scans from? Were they validated by translators from our wiki such as the goat @RaikiKurohane99?

Also very important, everything you provided indicates someone absurdly prideful who's boasting themselves with the narration... Like, are we really going to trust 100% that he can ignore the laws of the world because this guy said so?

They're the scans on the official profile icl, also he's not the one who said it, it was a narrative thing.

 

[Fezzih_007]

It isn't the same argument icl

I guess you are trying to argue for Aca type 1 and 2 now, so there's one difference.

Besides that? You even using the same scans for the others threads.

 

[Nonynho]

Besides that? You even using the same scans for the others threads.

yikes

 

[Godslayermeli]

I guess you are trying to argue for Aca type 1 and 2 now, so there's one difference.

Besides that? You even using the same scans for the others threads.

Idk if you've seen but (1) we argue in a different manner, (2) we have more and new arguments such as the Minerva argument in the replied to this thread, as you said we added new types; and I've said this multiple times, but zab really just didn't properly respond to anything in the last thread nor represent the point properly. His way of wording and arguing led to a butterfly effect of critiques, mine; simply doesn't do that

 

[Godslayermeli]

yikes

It's a tracking error on his end icl

 

[Nonynho]

i'm not really sold into those ideas atm, but imma keep looking

 

[Fezzih_007]

we argue in a different manner

Like? The only different is your have way less details.

Did you even read the Other threads to confirm what you arguing is different?

we have more and new arguments such as the Minerva argument

The thread Zabazab also have the Minerva argument, and got rejected still. So like, that's already a No for my question.

as you said we added new types

I did say that, yeah.

His way of wording and arguing led to a butterfly effect of critiques, mine; simply doesn't do that

Brother, you have 4 people disagreeing with you already, wtf you mean "my way of wording don't led to critique"

It's a tracking error on his end icl

🫩

 

[Godslayermeli]

Like? The only different is your have way less details.

Did you even read the Other threads to confirm what you arguing is different?

The thread Zabazab also have the Minerva argument, and got rejected still. So like, that's already a No for my question.

I did say that, yeah.

Brother, you have 4 people disagreeing with you already, wtf you mean "my way of wording don't led to critique"

🫩

The issue is the type of critique, not the actual critique. Not a single critique to type 4 has been made. Only to type 1 and 2, which is debated over. So the proposition “my wording hasn't led to critique” is the case in context. Furthermore, the distinction is, yes, it's less details; it also requires less assumptions as a byproduct, and the Minerva argument is being reframed; along with the entire argument as a whole. Also icl, saying they explained a critique in this forum instead of just saying the critique makes it more complicated. But I simply just don't believe you can name a critique from that thread the applies here.

 

[Godslayermeli]

Good afternoon from Brazil, imma adress the answers to my post



idk, maybe if it said "possibly limited aca5", but i saw people saying he gets affected by other haxes such as an example of law working on him, so i think further analysis would bring up more anti-feats than stuff furthering this line of thought


fair enough. Will admit i skimmed through because i saw them as a bit similar, but if you say so i'll properly read it and answer accordingly


Welp, this type of acausality is the most binary featwise, either you have a solid claim on it or nah
RTZ is the literal only traveling back to time (at least that i can remember of rn) so when has him or his authority even been shown to not being affected by changes to the past?
Same for aca2, just change the end of the phrasis to "future"


where i'm reading rn i haven't met Aldebaran yet, sorry for the ignorance lol


please bring up scans leading you to infer such and maybe i'll back up a "possibly aca1&2"

Ngl it's just an internence without much data behind it, it's similar to the type 5 thing just more likely, the aim of the CRT is type 4, type 1, 2, and 5 are just possible

 

[Fezzih_007]

The issue is the type of critique, not the actual critique. Not a single critique to type 4 has been made.

It did, like "The arguments you posted already been rejected in a previous thread" is a critique, since you need to debunk the counter arguments on that threads to get this one accepted.

and the Minerva argument is being reframed;

How exactly? Zabazab argument is:

So it's established that Regulus can ignore every concept and law in the world, and we know from Witch's Evaluation Meeting that Minerva's Authority of Wrath– which heals people by twisting cause and effect– is a power that forcibly twists the world's rules, therefore cause and effect are a law of the world which Regulus can ignore.

The argument on this thread is:

I mean wouldnt Regulus's authority make him inmune to Minerva's? Which changes cause & effect to heal iirc? Like its a law and Regulus ignores laws (Among the rules of the world, cause and effect as well as the laws of fate are included)

Is the same, is not changing anything.

But I simply just don't believe you can name a critique from that thread the applies here.

You have blind confidence in your ability to argue.
I respect that, I have self-hatred so I don't think I can do that /joke

Well, If a mod comes here, I can lay out the argument then on what's the problem with this, If you could wait.

 

[Nonynho]

Ngl it's just an internence without much data behind it, it's similar to the type 5 thing just more likely, the aim of the CRT is type 4, type 1, 2, and 5 are just possible

Right

But all of them are already based on stuff that is implied (when 99,9999% of the time it needs direct and solid evidence for the claim) with absolutely no scans implying such or having to basically trust him to see the powers getting to be true (let's remember that narration is not absolute)

See why it's so weird?

 

[Godslayermeli]

Right

But all of them are already based on stuff that is implied (when 99,9999% of the time it needs direct and solid evidence for the claim) with absolutely no scans implying such or having to basically trust him to see the powers getting to be true (let's remember that narration is not absolute)

See why it's so weird?

Yeah, once more I don't really care for the other 3, it's kinda just there as a possibility. The main aim of this thread is type 4 after all.

 

[Godslayermeli]

It did, like "The arguments you posted already been rejected in a previous thread" is a critique, since you need to debunk the counter arguments on that threads to get this one accepted.

How exactly? Zabazab argument is:

The argument on this thread is:

Is the same, is not changing anything.

You have blind confidence in your ability to argue.
I respect that, I have self-hatred so I don't think I can do that /joke

Well, If a mod comes here, I can lay out the argument then on what's the problem with this, If you could wait.

That's not the entire Minerva argument, it's kinda spread around but that was mostly a question icl.

But, you know what; I'll entertain this. Nobody talk for the next little bit I'm gonna write a giant response responding to all the critiques in the other thread, both dismantling them, showing their assumptions, and showing the distinctions in these arguments between me and Zab, that way everyone can clearly see, (1) zab simply didn't represent the argument properly and distinctions between our points exist, (2) even if they did apply, they'll be dismantled, and (3) probably prove the invalidity of the critiques by standards due to the hidden assumptions anyways.

 

[Fezzih_007]

That's not the entire Minerva argument,

But, you know what; I'll entertain this.

Go for It

 

[Godslayermeli]

Go for It

So, as I previously stated, I will address every single critique given in this forum:

<https://vsbattles.com/threads/re-zero-regulus-corneas-revamp.177958/>

So, let's begin.

Spoiler: “Translation Arguments”

So, as raised by a few users, the original CRT didn't use the official translation. They proceed to argue that the official translation contradicts the original argument and doesn't imply the same thing. But, there exists a few issues here. For one, the original scans; used in both this current CRT and the original CRT for Type 4 Acausality made by Zabazab, we're approved by VSBW, do not contradict the original, and we're translated via the VSBW translation forum. Furthermore, they're the ones currently used on the profile.

But, let's just assume for some god unknown reason that they are invalid. Let's take only the novel scans from the official release, and see what they say.

Scan 1:
“There was only one possibility left of all the patterns he had imagined that could explain—his power didn't make him invincible at all. It was a time stop ability.
More precisely, Regulus could stop time for all sorts of objects.
Fulfilled. Not lacking. Complete.
The twisted worldview that Regulus espoused in all things spoke to the hideous way he lived, but it was also a confession of his power.
"If time has stopped for an object, then that means it doesn't change. No change means no getting injured, and it also means no getting wet, either. The dirt you throw and the water droplets all had their time stopped, too, so they couldn't be held back by the things they hit and just passed right through."
It was like the classic manga vacuum slash ability. There were all sorts of abilities in stories where people could cut through space itself, so that no matter how hard the thing they were trying to cut, they could still slice right through it. And Regulus's ability allowed something similar.
With his time stopped, Regulus Corneas himself was a distortion in space.
The bits of dirt that had been suspended in time had the destructive power to break through any and all defenses. It was possible to walk freely across the top of water whose time had been frozen. And he could nullify all attacks against him by simply stopping his own time.
It was the ultimate attack and the ultimate defense depending on how it was used. The invincibility was just a side effect of time stopping.”

Now, let's compare with the VSBW translated scan used on mine and Zab's CRTs, that was claimed to have a completely seperate meaning from this one:

VSBW Version of Scan 1:
“More precisely, Regulus could stop time for all sorts of objects.
Fulfilled. Not lacking. Complete.
The twisted worldview that Regulus espoused in all things spoke to the hideous way he lived, but it was also a confession of his power.
"If time has stopped for an object, then that means it doesn't change. No change means no getting injured, and it also means no getting wet, either. The dirt you throw and the water droplets all had their time stopped, too, so they couldn't be held back by the things they hit and just passed right through."
It was like the classic manga vacuum slash ability. There were all sorts of abilities in stories where people could cut through space itself, so that no matter how hard the thing they were trying to cut, they could still slice right through it. And Regulus's ability allowed something similar.
With his time stopped, Regulus Corneas himself was a distortion in space.
The bits of dirt that had been suspended in time had the destructive power to break through any and all defenses. It was possible to walk freely across the top of water whose time had been frozen. And he could nullify all attacks against him by simply stopping his own time.
It was the ultimate attack and the ultimate defense depending on how it was used. The invincibility was just a side effect of time stopping.”

It's almost like they both say that he stops time in his own body, and he doesn't change!

Next, let's look at scan two:

Official Scan 2:
“Despite his amateur stance and bearing, his speed was beyond all reason. Every once in a while, Regulus had displayed an ability to instantaneously accelerate that had shocked even Reinhard. However, now that Subaru knew what his power was, he also understood the trick behind that.
"Fgh!"
That moment, he unleashed all the power he had built up in his right leg, not hesitating as he leaped to the side, dodging in the exact way he had planned before even standing up. Since Regulus could only dash straight forward, his attack completely missed.
Regulus's superhuman change was also an effect of stopping time for his body.
By freezing time for his body, he could prevent all physical phenomena from interacting with him. That was the crux of his power. That meant freedom from every possible concept that might hold him back.
By freeing himself from gravity, air resistance, and conservation of momentum, Regulus gained an extraordinary source of power. But the fact that he didn't use it more often was probably because he couldn't fully control it himself—”

VSBW Scan 2:
“Regulus's superhuminization was also an application of applying time-stoppage to his body.
The core of Regulus's power was to apply time-stoppage to his body, making him immune to effects from all physical phenomena. In other words, it was the greatest/ultimate form of liberation/freedom from all concepts.
Freed from the laws of gravity, air pressure and ineteria, Regulus had obtained the ultimate power. The reason for why he doesn't always use it was it was a power even he couldn't properly control. –Volume 19, Chapter 3”

Once more, they explore the same concept. Notably, they both directly mention his immunity / prevention of physical phenomenon liberating him from concepts. The LN translation not only says the same thing, but actually adds further evidence to the CRT. It proclaims that Regulus doesn't know how to fully control this, and we know its an on-off style ability, so, any time he has an anti feat it could be chalked up to him not controlling it properly. I won't do this myself but it should be noted.

Next, let's look at scan 3, one the attackers state:

“is also completely different from the actual official volume”

So, let's look:

Official Scan 3:
“All thoughts of holding back had gone out the window. This was the limit of his mercy. It didn't matter that that boy had figured out Lion Heart or that some Sword Saint had showed up again.
Even with only five seconds, if he was invincible, there were any number of ways he could kill them all. The only thing that had stopped him was that he didn't enjoy seeing scenes of despair and the echoes of death cries, so he had chosen to abstain. That was all.
With Lion Heart active, Regulus could ignore all the rules of the world if he wanted to. If he used that method, then any being chained down by such concepts couldn't begin to match him.”

VSBW Scan 3:
“He wouldn't even consider going easy on them. Such was the limits of his mercy. It mattered not to him whether the other person knew of "Lion's Heart" power or that the "Sword Saint" was there.
Even for just five seconds, Regulus could kill his enemies as many times as he wanted with "Lion's Heart". Though he wouldn't be able to savor in seeing their faces of despair on their death throes, which is why he didn't dare to use it.
While "Lion's Heart" is active, Regulus could, if he wishes, ignore all of the world's laws. Through this method, those who are bound by concepts are no match for him. –Volume 19, Chapter 6”

Again, both explore the same concept. Notably, both passages proclaim using lionheart, he can ignore the rules / laws of the world, and subsequently, any being limited by them is no match for him. There really isn't a distinction besides a few wording distances.

Thus, arguments in relation to translations in this instance; fail, and perhaps even support the CRT they aim to deny.

Spoiler: “Time Stop Arguments”

This section will respond to a few arguments dating back to the stone age, primarily this one:

“In the one scan [the second] in which regulus brings up his freedom from every possible law and actually exposit on this freedom in any degree of clarity, beyond just the vaguest notion, all of what he specifically goes about mentioning is in relation to Physical laws aka Gravity, Air Resistance and Conservation of Momentum but non of this inherently has to do with him being in a state of irregular from causality or him being free from causality as a whole.

He doesn't experience change as an obviously side effect of his body being time locked, literally anything in a time stop obviously won't experience change. I don't see how this has an bearing on Acausality besides the mention of the word "Change" but to the best of my knowledge the Wiki doesn't treat every time stopped object as Acausal despite the fact that they inherently won't experience change.

The most glaring and obvious point against the notion of Regulus having Acausality Type 4 is the simple fact that he literally has direct showing of not having any of the inherent resistance that Acausality Type 4 would grant
He's blatantly not immune to causality manipulation in any way as it is literally on Pandora's profile that she uses causality manipulation on him with 0 issues and specifically explains it all being a natural result of his actions vanishing
He's blatantly not immune to precognition in any way as it is literally on Regulus' own profile in the standard equipment section that he carries around a book which vaguely tells his own future
The only way to reconcile these clear contradictions to the notion of him having Acausality is to posit that both Pandora's causality manipulation and the Book's Precognition are themselves able to affect irregular systems of causality simply by virtue of them affecting regulus despite neither her/nor anyone else bringing any attention to Regulus' unique state of existence as being something that would otherwise prevent any other causality manipulation/precog from working on him and the fact that Pandora's ability in particular is stated to basically have been the result of her changing the world and the world affirming her word so she's affecting him by altering the causality of the world which obviously wouldn't work if his supposed Acausality put him in a state of irregular causality separate from that of the worlds conventional system of causality.

It would be an extremely generous interpretation of events to assume that both Pandora's ability and the Books precog are simply able to affect irregular causality with little to no actual evidence in way of this being pointed out or mentioned at any point.

I think the qualifications for Acausality Type 4 (especially anything to do with statements of being exempt from laws/rules) are way too lax and generous as they are which leads to too many assumptions.

If we are given a statement that X character is exempt from rules/laws (the nature of this exclusion isn't explained in any sense of detail nor is causality specifically mentioned amongst those laws) -> The character is then assumed by the wiki to have an relevantly irregular relationship to causality and thus they are subsequently assumed to have immunity to Precog/Fate/Causality hax -> Any abilities of this kind which affect them are then assumed to have Acausality bypassing properties

These are extraordinary claims which require extraordinary evidence but often such cases only just have one or more unexplored statement of being exempt from laws/rules.”

For one, this argument fails in the first paragraph. We have a direct example of Regulus bypassing a non-physical “law” of the world. Being Sirius's authority. Authorities are directly stated to be the ability to bend the laws of the world to ones favor, and in some cases to redefine them. Authorities are, also obviously, not physical. The only argument you could make for a physical authority is the unseen hand / sloth; but even that's iffy. Before you ask for evidence, this was in the original CRT made by Zabazab, as apart of the supportimy evidence, evidence is there.

But, let's continue, what type of time is being operated under when you claim something cannot change without time? There's multiple theories here and no concrete definition of time. This is a vague metaphorical claim that everyone bows to you for as nobody you debate has read basic metaphysics.

Also, the time-lock interpretation only holds when you ignore the direct statements of fate being a law of the world, and Minerva authority effecting the law of cause of effect. Soo.?

Next, for the Pandora thing, I beat this to death in my most recent CRT but I shall make it clear by stating this:

Why does she have causality manipulation? Her abilities can be indexed as reality warping or some form of phenomenon manipulation (which is what Tappei calls it fyi), and proclaiming it's just stated on the her wiki doesn't really matter, as it's in question.

Next, for the gospels, have we forgotten they're imperfect replicas of Echidna's authority and the Tome of Wisdom? Ya’ know, the ability that allowed Roswaal to know Subaru has an authority, or that allowed Echidna to perfectly understand anything she wanted to. The only distinction shown between the two is that one is vague precogs and directions (gospel), and the other is perfect knowledge on the thing. So we actually do have reason for an irregular causality gospel. This also presupposes his gospel can see him, something that is neither confirmed or denied, while it's true we may have some supporting evidence of it showing him, it is ultimately unknownable, as gospels are left vague on purpose.

Finally, the conclusion does infact follow when you take in account full context, don't rat arbitrary translation difference, and actually look at the evidence.

Besides these two arguments, arguments against type 4 kinds just fail, as they all hinge on the time-stop interpretation.

 

[Crymachina]

So, as I previously stated, I will address every single critique given in this forum:

<https://vsbattles.com/threads/re-zero-regulus-corneas-revamp.177958/>

So, let's begin.

Spoiler: “Translation Arguments”

So, as raised by a few users, the original CRT didn't use the official translation. They proceed to argue that the official translation contradicts the original argument and doesn't imply the same thing. But, there exists a few issues here. For one, the original scans; used in both this current CRT and the original CRT for Type 4 Acausality made by Zabazab, we're approved by VSBW, do not contradict the original, and we're translated via the VSBW translation forum. Furthermore, they're the ones currently used on the profile.

But, let's just assume for some god unknown reason that they are invalid. Let's take only the novel scans from the official release, and see what they say.



Now, let's compare with the VSBW translated scan used on mine and Zab's CRTs, that was claimed to have a completely seperate meaning from this one:

It's almost like they both say that he stops time in his own body, and he doesn't change!

Next, let's look at scan two:




Once more, they explore the same concept. Notably, they both directly mention his immunity / prevention of physical phenomenon liberating him from concepts. The LN translation not only says the same thing, but actually adds further evidence to the CRT. It proclaims that Regulus doesn't know how to fully control this, and we know its an on-off style ability, so, any time he has an anti feat it could be chalked up to him not controlling it properly. I won't do this myself but it should be noted.

Next, let's look at scan 3, one the attackers state:

“is also completely different from the actual official volume”

So, let's look:





Again, both explore the same concept. Notably, both passages proclaim using lionheart, he can ignore the rules / laws of the world, and subsequently, any being limited by them is no match for him. There really isn't a distinction besides a few wording distances.

Thus, arguments in relation to translations in this instance; fail, and perhaps even support the CRT they aim to deny.

Spoiler: “Time Stop Arguments”

This section will respond to a few arguments dating back to the stone age, primarily this one:



For one, this argument fails in the first paragraph. We have a direct example of Regulus bypassing a non-physical “law” of the world. Being Sirius's authority. Authorities are directly stated to be the ability to bend the laws of the world to ones favor, and in some cases to redefine them. Authorities are, also obviously, not physical. The only argument you could make for a physical authority is the unseen hand / sloth; but even that's iffy. Before you ask for evidence, this was in the original CRT made by Zabazab, as apart of the supportimy evidence, evidence is there.

But, let's continue, what type of time is being operated under when you claim something cannot change without time? There's multiple theories here and no concrete definition of time. This is a vague metaphorical claim that everyone bows to you for as nobody you debate has read basic metaphysics.

Also, the time-lock interpretation only holds when you ignore the direct statements of fate being a law of the world, and Minerva authority effecting the law of cause of effect. Soo.?

Next, for the Pandora thing, I beat this to death in my most recent CRT but I shall make it clear by stating this:

Why does she have causality manipulation? Her abilities can be indexed as reality warping or some form of phenomenon manipulation (which is what Tappei calls it fyi), and proclaiming it's just stated on the her wiki doesn't really matter, as it's in question.

Next, for the gospels, have we forgotten they're imperfect replicas of Echidna's authority and the Tome of Wisdom? Ya’ know, the ability that allowed Roswaal to know Subaru has an authority, or that allowed Echidna to perfectly understand anything she wanted to. The only distinction shown between the two is that one is vague precogs and directions (gospel), and the other is perfect knowledge on the thing. So we actually do have reason for an irregular causality gospel. This also presupposes his gospel can see him, something that is neither confirmed or denied, while it's true we may have some supporting evidence of it showing him, it is ultimately unknownable, as gospels are left vague on purpose.

Finally, the conclusion does infact follow when you take in account full context, don't rat arbitrary translation difference, and actually look at the evidence.

Besides these two arguments, arguments against type 4 kinds just fail, as they all hinge on the time-stop interpretation.

This will be my further justification for how the scans between the VSBW versions and official translations that Godslayermeli has presented, don’t have any meaningful distinctions in terms of substance, even though some of them may seem to have entire paragraphs worth of lexical differences.

Official Scan 2:
“Despite his amateur stance and bearing, his speed was beyond all reason. Every once in a while, Regulus had displayed an ability to instantaneously accelerate that had shocked even Reinhard. However, now that Subaru knew what his power was, he also understood the trick behind that.
"Fgh!"
That moment, he unleashed all the power he had built up in his right leg, not hesitating as he leaped to the side, dodging in the exact way he had planned before even standing up. Since Regulus could only dash straight forward, his attack completely missed.
Regulus's superhuman change was also an effect of stopping time for his body.
By freezing time for his body, he could prevent all physical phenomena from interacting with him. That was the crux of his power. That meant freedom from every possible concept that might hold him back.
By freeing himself from gravity, air resistance, and conservation of momentum, Regulus gained an extraordinary source of power. But the fact that he didn't use it more often was probably because he couldn't fully control it himself—”



VSBW Scan 2:
“Regulus's superhuminization was also an application of applying time-stoppage to his body.
The core of Regulus's power was to apply time-stoppage to his body, making him immune to effects from all physical phenomena. In other words, it was the greatest/ultimate form of liberation/freedom from all concepts.
Freed from the laws of gravity, air pressure and ineteria, Regulus had obtained the ultimate power. The reason for why he doesn't always use it was it was a power even he couldn't properly control. –Volume 19, Chapter 3”

Before rendering my argument, I will first provide justification for why the words “rule” and “law” in this context are just lexical variants.

Both words denote the governing principles by which a system operates. Lexically, rule is defined as a governing or regulating principle, and law is defined as a principle established as governing or binding. When the referent to these words is the world itself, both expressions are going to identify in accordance with their class, that being the governing principles of the world.

This is backed up by context, In the official translation, it’s stated that Regulus can “ignore all the rules of the world,” after which “any being chained down by such concepts couldn’t begin to match him.” The VSBW version basically renders the same sequence as ignoring “all of the world’s laws,” after which “those who are bound by concepts are no match for him.” Since “such concepts” and “concepts” occupy the identical referential role immediately after “rules” and “laws,” the passages themselves treat the two terms as denoting the same governing framework, this can also be seen in reference to the laws of physics such as momentum, gravity and pressure.


Now to actually start; as Godslayermeli already stated, these passages describe the same concept. Regulus stops time for his own body, which prevents physical phenomena from affecting or interacting with him, to which this immunity consequently liberates him from the constraints said phenomena would’ve imposed.

The official translation expresses this; “prevent all physical phenomena from interacting with him” which is followed by “freedom from every possible concept that might hold him back”

The VSBW version compresses the same idea, but in a broader manner; “making him immune to effects from all physical phenomena” and “the greatest form of freedom from all concepts.”

The subsequent examples in both versions such as gravity, air resistance, and momentum function as explanatory premises that define “concepts”, that being the principles that govern physical reality, thus, “immunity to physical phenomena” and “freedom from concepts” are presented as two descriptions of the same state with the latter being consequential to the former. The VSBW version only describes it in a more stepwise manner.

Furthermore, when looking at the rhetorical structure the passages follow if not extremely similar, then literally the same chain of explanations:

Official:
“Regulus’s superhuman change was also an effect of stopping time for his body.”

VSBW version:
“Regulus’s superhuminization was also an application of applying time-stoppage to his body.”

Both quotes establish the mechanism of lionheart

Official:
“By freezing time for his body, he could prevent all physical phenomena from interacting with him. That was the crux of his power.”

VSBW version:
“The core of Regulus’s power was to apply time-stoppage to his body, making him immune to effects from all physical phenomena.

Both quotes state physical phenomena not working against regulus

Official:
“That meant freedom from every possible concept that might hold him back.”

VSBW version:
“In other words, it was the greatest/ultimate form of liberation/freedom from all concepts.”

Now, notice how both signal that the sentence is a restatement or reformation of the immediate preceding explanation with “In other words,” and “That meant…” which would entail the same, or at least similar inferential relation. Thus, both translations explicitly entail liberation from concepts as being consequential to immunity of physical phenomena.

Official:
“By freeing himself from gravity, air resistance, and conservation of momentum…”

VSBW version:
“Freed from the laws of gravity, air pressure and inertia…”

Basically the same sentence with different wording , but this still serves as a anchor semantically to the preceding statement.

Official:
“Regulus gained an extraordinary source of power.”

VSBW version:
“Regulus had obtained the ultimate power.”

This is irrelevant, but nonetheless further proves that the two passages have the same chain of explanation.

Now following up with scan 3, there are practically no differences, lol, even semantically, the key line of purpose is almost in direct correspondence.

Literally, almost every key sentence relating to lionheart is the same in terms of substance.

Official:
“With Lion Heart active…”

Vsbw Version:
“While Lion Heart is active…”

Identical conditionals

Official:
“Regulus could ignore all the rules of the world if he wanted to.”

Vsbw version:
“Regulus could, if he wishes, ignore all of the world’s laws.”

“Rules” and “laws” are just lexical variants referring to the governing principles of the world, as justified earlier

Official:
“If he used that method…”

Vsbw version:
“Through this method…”

Identical references

Official:
“then any being chained down by such concepts…”

Vsbw version:
“those who are bound by concepts…”

“Chained down” and “bound” are both just synonymous metaphors of constraint

Official:
“couldn’t begin to match him.”

Vsbw version:
“are no match for him.”

Identical conclusions

As for the first two scans, the only textual difference is the omission of the opening sentence, so yeah, the difference between all these passages are but semantic and stylistic.

This is just my improv on nulling the scan's lexical differentiations, Godslayermeli can do whatever they will of this.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

First and foremost: where are this scans from? Were they validated by translators from our wiki such as the goat @RaikiKurohane99?

I think you forgot that you don't have permission to tag staff members.

 

[Nonynho]

I think you forgot that you don't have permission to tag staff members.

Our pings don't call them out and i indicated the Translation Helper that i see in activity to potentially help with scans
So idk what you mean

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Our pings don't call them out and i indicated the Translation Helper that i see in activity to potentially help with scans
So idk what you mean

I know, but only staffs can tag other staffs

Edit: nvm, ignore me, I want watch

 

[Nonynho]

I know, but only staffs can tag other staffs

Edit: nvm, ignore me, I want watch

fyi, a small correction: only staff's pings pop up in user's notification, be it if they ping a regular user or if they ping other staff members, so we (regular blue names) can ping only for formatting sake

lemme answer the matter at hand though

 

[Nonynho]

For one, the original scans; used in both this current CRT and the original CRT for Type 4 Acausality made by Zabazab, we're approved by VSBW, do not contradict the original

"The original scans don't contradict the original"? wym?

and we're translated via the VSBW translation forum.

friendly note: "we're" = "we are"
i think you mean "were"

would be a small nitpick but i've seen it more than once in the text so i hope you don't see me as being rude or something alike

But, let's just assume for some god unknown reason that they are invalid. Let's take only the novel scans from the official release, and see what they say.

Quite important: i think you gotta let us know how you acessed those official release scans and if possible link them too

Other than that, won't lie that re-reading brought up evidence and reading this i am more inclined towards Limited Acausality type 4, yeah
Not convinced on the others but you went out of way to say they're minor so imma not even adress them further

 

[Godslayermeli]

"The original scans don't contradict the original"? wym?

friendly note: "we're" = "we are"
i think you mean "were"

would be a small nitpick but i've seen it more than once in the text so i hope you don't see me as being rude or something alike


Quite important: i think you gotta let us know how you acessed those official release scans and if possible link them too

Other than that, won't lie that re-reading brought up evidence and reading this i am more inclined towards Limited Acausality type 4, yeah
Not convinced on the others but you went out of way to say they're minor so imma not even adress them further

Oh, I got them from the person who I linked. They originally argued that their alleged official releases contradict everything I and Zab used; so I literally used the exact scans he gave.

Also, for original scans don't contradict the original I meant official don't contradiction the original; i was really tired when I wrote that ick

 

[Nonynho]

Also, for original scans don't contradict the original I meant official don't contradiction the original; i was really tired when I wrote that ick

i can't kie
/j

i feel ya, really thought it could be something like that but asked just to be sure lol

Oh, I got them from the person who I linked

You only linked this thread...
Or you mean you linked elsewhere?

 

[Godslayermeli]

i can't kie
/j

i feel ya, really thought it could be something like that but asked just to be sure lol

You only linked this thread...
Or you mean you linked elsewhere?

The thread has them plus a large explaination and justification for them being official in the replied to that forum, it's about 4-5 posts down, it's the very first objection

 

[Nonynho]

The thread has them plus a large explaination and justification for them being official in the replied to that forum, it's about 4-5 posts down, it's the very first objection

Cool by me
I rest my case then, put me up for agreeing with type 4 and disagreeing with type 5

 

[Godslayermeli]

Cool by me
I rest my case then, put me up for agreeing with type 4 and disagreeing with type 5

Done

 

[Fezzih_007]

So, as I previously stated, I will address every single critique given in this forum:

Wow.

The way you said, I expecting a SilverChariot level of response, but this is pretty tame.

 

[Godslayermeli]

Wow.

The way you said, I expecting a SilverChariot level of response, but this is pretty tame.

This isn't a rebuttal to what I said, plus my rebuttal does exactly as I said. Do not waste time with arbitrary comments.

 

[Fezzih_007]

This isn't a rebuttal to what I said,

True, you complety right.

Do not waste time with arbitrary comments.

Pretty ironic, but well.

plus my rebuttal does exactly as I said.

It sure does.

So, let's begin.

Hmmmmm.

Can't say I surprised with this. I gonna Skip the Translations, since is boring.

For one, this argument fails in the first paragraph. We have a direct example of Regulus bypassing a non-physical “law” of the world. Being Sirius's authority. Authorities are directly stated to be the ability to bend the laws of the world to ones favor, and in some cases to redefine them. Authorities are, also obviously, not physical.

So I assume you only read the first comment made by @Sonoftanavast9 and didn't the rest of the conversation. Because Zabazab bring Sirius authority here.

Spoiler: Zabazab 1#

Yet it's clearly not just physical laws, or just laws of physics, it's "The laws of the world." His power is not at all restricted to merely physical phenomena, as blatantly non-physical phenomena does not affect him. A passive Authority– which in itself is an ability that twists the laws of reality– with the power to manipulate souls fails to do anything to Regulus. Even if you ignored every physical law, every physical phenomenon, there's no way that would be possible. Its unchangeability beyond just the physical.

Paraphrasing: "With Lion's Heart, Regulus could ignore all of the rules/laws of the world, making those who are bound by concepts no match for him." is not a particularly vague statement, it's saying that at his absolute maximum he can ignore every law or concept. If what was meant was "just the laws of physics" in that quote, why would "rules of the world" (a term that was also used in regards to Minerva's Authority in Witch's Evaluation Meeting) be used instead of just "laws of physics", which is even brought up later? Mentioning the laws of physics being restored the moment deactivated Lion's Heart in his death scene is not meaningful either, as I've clarified that what Regulus ignores is selective, and without Little King it becomes harder to control, he very well could have been ignoring just a few laws of physics in that scene. It's not as though saying that Regulus was interfering with the laws of physics somehow makes earlier mentions of him ignoring all the rules/concepts of the world suddenly restricted to just physics.

And Sonoftanavast9 responded:

Spoiler: Sonoftanavast9 #1

Each Authority has a function/a specific ability it induces and if that function does not operate within context of working regardless of a time stop it would automatically not have an effect of Regulus because he is.

Regardless of if all Authority is fundamentally sourced from a baseline ability of law Manipulation what the specific abilities of Sirius herself does is that of a specific power which lets her affect souls to transfer damage/emotions so if this abilities doesn't function under a time stop then Regulus stopping his own time would make him immune to it.

Basically if I stopped time in an area and would Sirius's ability still work? If the answer is no then theres no reason to assume it would just bypass the stopped time of lions heart to begin with regardless of if Regulus was or wasn't talking about any laws beyond the physical.

Then when it comes to souls themselves if they aren't transcending time or have feats of being immune to time stop then Regulus stopping his time would fundamentally affect his soul in the area in which his time was stopped meaning it would be invulnerable as well.

I see you have been specifying that he can only reject physical laws when that is only partially true since soul, mind and other forms of non physical hax are also uninteractable including Carmilla's death hax?
https://vsbattles.com/threads/re-ze...les-are-way-to-lax-anyway.165480/post-6415686
Thats a natural result of the timestop acting on him, unless the soul & mind in rezero is like beyond time or something it would be affected by him stopping his own time. To the best of my knowledge peoples souls/minds etc. are assumed to be kinda immaterially layered over their bodies or immaterially inside the bodies so if the body is frozen in time affected them would logically not be viable though this can vary from verse to verse depending on the way the Author chooses to portray the supposed timefreeze & the mechanics of souls but with no explicit statement of the soul being unaffected by altering time in verse then his time stop stopping stuff from affecting his soul is just a logical extension of the idea. Like most incorporeal beings which exists as just souls/conscious aren't automatically assumed immune to time stop on the wiki so time stop logically will affect his soul/mind etc. - This argument essentially would mean any incorporeal spiritual/mental etc. being would be immune to timestop automatically.

So basically.

Sirius authority is not a counter, Regulus time stop also affects his Soul. So Sirius powers wouldn't affect him by default. Sirius powers can't really affect things where time is stopped.

Zabazab try to argue why Souls considered physical phenomena:

Spoiler: Zabazab #2

His time being stopped and therefore granting immunity to only all physical phenomena would not include a potent metaphysical ability that twists the "laws of reality" (and can't be beaten out by the effects of divine protections, which are themselves constraints of the world created by the Od Lagna) like Sirius' Soulwashing— which of the laws of physics could be ignored in order to prevent such an interaction? If "all the laws/concepts of the world" just meant "The laws of physics", surely something like that would work on him. But it doesn't, because Lion's Heart blatantly is not restricted to just physical phenomena. If they meant just the laws of physics, they'd only say laws of physics instead of all laws/concepts of the world. You're viewing his timestop akin to the timestops of say Satella, when the two abilities couldn't be more different. Nobody frozen by Regulus has even been shown as physically frozen/unable to move, and people frozen in time by Satella are easily injured rather than possessing the "natural invincibility" that time-stop would supposedly grant. If Sirius was under Lion's Heart I'm certain Soulwashing would still work on people. If Sirius was under Satella's timestop I'm certain Soulwashing would be active, just not very effective beyond her frozen figure drawing one's attention, since it's moreso a potent passive charm that rapidly devolves into basically mind-control as one falls into her theatrics. If Sirius was under Minya she'd be shattered crystals on the ground, so Soulwashing would not work (she's dead).

I simply can't get on board with the logic that souls could be considered a physical phenomenon that immunity from the laws of physics like gravity, and inertia, and friction would render the manipulation of them useless (particularly Re:Zero souls, or really, Ods, which have some funky stuff involved). I can't get behind the idea that a term as broad as all the laws/concepts of the world actually means just the laws of physics, when we know the world has laws other than physical ones. Timestop is not a power which I believe covers his feats/statements.

And again, Sonoftanavast9:

Spoiler: Sonoftanavast9 #2

Spoiler: Sonoftanavast9 #2

The abilities do not require anything beyond just regular time stop to to be stopped... That's the entire point regardless of if he had actual statements that went into detail about anything beyond physical laws (He doesn't) he would still ignore their abilities because the mechanics of a timestop would still provide protection from them simply due to how Timestop works.

Regardless of if Divine Protections/Authority are based in Law Manipulation they each induce different specific effects, which are not in any way shape or form inherently resistant to time being stopped. For example, Garfield's divine protection of Earth Spirits just allows him to manipulate earth as long as his feat are planted to the ground, meaning that despite the core of divine protection being law manipulation the practical effect is just earth manipulation which a regular ass timestop would stop regardless of if it were law manipulation or not.

Sirius's ability operates by working on the soul directly to induce a resonance that allows for the spreading of here own Damage or Emotion across anyone affected [That is the actual practical effect of the Authority] - That is the practical effect of the ability in of itself which would inherently be stopped by a time stop regardless of if that time stop has any statement related to broader laws beyond the physical or not.

Regulus stops time for his body, his soul/mind etc. are assumed to be either immaterially layered over his body or immaterially inside the body so if the body so when his time is frozen they would both naturally be affected in tandem with it thus Sirius' authority will just not be able to bypass the inherent nature of the timestop

It's not that hard of a basic line of logic to comprehend

A) In relation to Powers [Authorities/Divine Protections] - An ability is sourced from Law Manipulation -> The actual practical usage of that ability does a specific thing -> The specific thing it is used for is not exempt from time being stopped in any capacity -> Regulus's time stopped body would not be affected by it [And frankly any timestop would stop it]
Nothing you've said has actually changed much from the main downgrade thread, it's literally the same argument except now the specific focus is on Authorities rather than Divine Protections. The point remains the same, a regular ass timestop would stop the ability regardless of if it was caused by Law Manipulation or not so there's no reason to use Regulus being immune to it as a result of his authority as an indicator that it is anything more than the Timestoppage of his body

Which basically saying, a regular time stop would make anyone unaffected by powers that really can't bypass shit like that.

Tho, that's not exactly the point anyway.

@Sonoftanavast9 saying all the scans that try to prove he have Aca type 4, they mention physical things.

In the one scan [the second] in which regulus brings up his freedom from every possible law and actually exposit on this freedom in any degree of clarity, beyond just the vaguest notion, all of what he specifically goes about mentioning is in relation to Physical laws aka Gravity, Air Resistance and Conservation of Momentum but non of this inherently has to do with him being in a state of irregular from causality or him being free from causality as a whole.

First and foremost, Regulus Corneas's ability works by stopping time within his own body. This frees him from all physical limitations, concepts, and even laws of the world. This also has the effect of stopping all means of change within himself.

All this scans you post only talk about physical things. Even the one talking about concepts is only talking about physical things.

So, regardless If Regulus authority protect him from Sirius, and that proves is not only physical things that he can defend against It, It don't actually nescessary mean he have Acasu type 4.

He also just lacks any feats of resistance that would grant him that, like being unaffected by Fate Manipulation, Causality Manipulation and Precognition.

"The scan says he unaffected by all Laws" is not enough, he still would need to show being unaffected by someone using that on him.

This is a vague metaphorical claim that everyone bows to you for as nobody you debate has read basic metaphysics.

Is not me btw, I just copy and pasting Sonoftanavast9 arguments since I agree with them.

Not sure If they gonna appear here tho

Why does she have causality manipulation?

What she does is quite blatanly Causality Manipulation.

She removed Regulus/The cause, and immediatly all the damage/The Effects of that Cause, got undone. Pandora Death, the forest that got damaged.

"If Archbishop Corneas was never here, It followed that all results of Archbishop Corneas's action would also vanish"

It can't get more blatant than that.

Next, for the gospels, have we forgotten they're imperfect replicas of Echidna's authority and the Tome of Wisdom? Ya’ know, the ability that allowed Roswaal to know Subaru has an authority, or that allowed Echidna to perfectly understand anything she wanted to. The only distinction shown between the two is that one is vague precogs and directions (gospel), and the other is perfect knowledge on the thing. So we actually do have reason for an irregular causality gospel.

I have no Idea wtf you mean with this point.

The Gospel show the cultist the Future with vague ass details, and they different from Echdina books. So that means they can ignore Causality? Is that your point, because that's weakest arg I read.

It took me 2 minutes to write all this.

I have more things to say, but I got bored halfway. So this is gonna be my last reply. All I did was copy the Other rebuttal from the other thread, Because is the same arguments already used that got rejected so I don't see any point on continuing. If this gets accepted (somehow), someone will just remove again. Is the same repetitive pattern

 

[Godslayermeli]

True, you complety right.

Pretty ironic, but well.

It sure does.

Hmmmmm.

Can't say I surprised with this. I gonna Skip the Translations, since is boring.

So I assume you only read the first comment made by @Sonoftanavast9 and didn't the rest of the conversation. Because Zabazab bring Sirius authority here.

And Sonoftanavast9 responded:

So basically.

Sirius authority is not a counter, Regulus time stop also affects his Soul. So Sirius powers wouldn't affect him by default. Sirius powers can't really affect things where time is stopped.

Zabazab try to argue why Souls considered physical phenomena:

And again, Sonoftanavast9:

Which basically saying, a regular time stop would make anyone unaffected by powers that really can't bypass shit like that.

Tho, that's not exactly the point anyway.

@Sonoftanavast9 saying all the scans that try to prove he have Aca type 4, they mention physical things.


All this scans you post only talk about physical things. Even the one talking about concepts is only talking about physical things.

So, regardless If Regulus authority protect him from Sirius, and that proves is not only physical things that he can defend against It, It don't actually nescessary mean he have Acasu type 4.

He also just lacks any feats of resistance that would grant him that, like being unaffected by Fate Manipulation, Causality Manipulation and Precognition.

"The scan says he unaffected by all Laws" is not enough, he still would need to show being unaffected by someone using that on him.


Is not me btw, I just copy and pasting Sonoftanavast9 arguments since I agree with them.

Not sure If they gonna appear here tho

What she does is quite blatanly Causality Manipulation.

She removed Regulus/The cause, and immediatly all the damage/The Effects of that Cause, got undone. Pandora Death, the forest that got damaged.

"If Archbishop Corneas was never here, It followed that all results of Archbishop Corneas's action would also vanish"

It can't get more blatant than that.


I have no Idea wtf you mean with this point.

The Gospel show the cultist the Future with vague ass details, and they different from Echdina books. So that means they can ignore Causality? Is that your point, because that's weakest arg I read.

It took me 2 minutes to write all this.

I have more things to say, but I got bored halfway. So this is gonna be my last reply. All I did was copy the Other rebuttal from the other thread, Because is the same arguments already used that got rejected so I don't see any point on continuing. If this gets accepted (somehow), someone will just remove again. Is the same repetitive pattern

This can be summed up and responded to in a few quick points, the first being

(1) The soul, is, inherently non-physical both by definition and by the mechanics it rezero. Have we forgotten arc 6? The corridor of memories?

(2) Your ignoring the implications of being able to simply be immune to an authority. Sure, Sirius's authority in particular may be soul manip; but it's power comes from law manipulation, subsequently, Regulus's ability is immune to law manipulation. This is important as fate and cause and effect are both established laws of the verse given Minerva and Priscilla's statements. Also, could we remember that it's stated Regulus could beat every single sinrchbishop and witch besides Satella and Pandora? How would he do that if not immune to their abilities, as he's a regular human without immunity. If he wasn't immune, how would he beat anyone there?

(3) The example you are looking for, is Sirius.

 

[Godslayermeli]

This can be summed up and responded to in a few quick points, the first being

(1) The soul, is, inherently non-physical both by definition and by the mechanics it rezero. Have we forgotten arc 6? The corridor of memories?

(2) Your ignoring the implications of being able to simply be immune to an authority. Sure, Sirius's authority in particular may be soul manip; but it's power comes from law manipulation, subsequently, Regulus's ability is immune to law manipulation. This is important as fate and cause and effect are both established laws of the verse given Minerva and Priscilla's statements. Also, could we remember that it's stated Regulus could beat every single sinrchbishop and witch besides Satella and Pandora? How would he do that if not immune to their abilities, as he's a regular human without immunit. If he wasn't immune, how would he beat anyone there?

(3) The example you are looking for, is Sirius.

I sent this early on accident, I'll continue in a moment. But the gospels are derived form Echidna's tote of wisdom, share a ton of properties, and the only major distinction is scope. Given that, we could infer it's perhaps possible that they can also see causality and fate manip, akin to how they see authorities like Subaru's or Al's.

 

[Godslayermeli]

Bump

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

After reading through, i am gonna say disagree with type 1,2 and 5 acausality and agree with type 4