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Asriel VS Kumagawa
- Thread starter TauanVictor
- Start date
FoxySonicMaster108
He/Him- 2,553
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Son
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FoxySonicMaster108
He/Him- 2,553
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What does Kumagawa do against a Low 1-C bruh, not to mention I’m 99% sure Flowey outhaxes
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He doesn't have HDE so Kumagawa could affect him.
Eden_Warlock99
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"Asriel" this some clickbait
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It's just to turn easy the search lol.
FoxySonicMaster108
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Would the Conceptual Manip even work on Flowey? Kumagawa has only done it to erase colour to make a person’s skill worthless, and could use it to erase the concept of time if he wanted. Plus I doubt he’d do that off the bat.asriel does not resist type 2 concept hax
kumagawa wins
If his erasure can affect beings at the conceptual level (I doubt it) and it does work, Flowey takes it 90% of the time at least. Because Flowey’s save and load is some bs, it’d make bookmaker or any other methods to put him down worthless
FoxySonicMaster108
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No, but Save and Load is annoying because Flowey relies on it to come back, thus it’s most likely a hard counter to Misogi’s All Fiction anyway.
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What does that do ? I couldn't find a link to the profiles
Mbpoops
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I think it kinda works like immortality where he can just load a previous save file as a revival method
FoxySonicMaster108
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I don’t think it’s that simple, given Kumagawa hasn’t erased anyone in combat. Also Kumagawa himself doesn’t have Acausality so I don’t even think he’d understand what’s going on when Flowey uses Save and Load.
Here
Giving it some more thought, Bookmaker could maybe have a shot at incapping before Flowey thinks to use Save and Load (I believe it’s thought based), but who knows if it would even affect Flowey.
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I assume it'a the limited Info-2, if it functions similar to LGR then it wouldn't really work even if it uses Info-2 because Kumagawa's EE is causality based so he would erase the very act that resulted in Flowey's existence making Resurrection and anything of the sorts impossible but obviously that's not his SBA as the only time he did that is with Zenkichi and that was because he knew Zenkichi would come back and to teach Shiranui a lesson so yea....
Bookmaker ig ? Can flowey perma kill Kuma though ?
FoxySonicMaster108
He/Him- 2,553
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Save and Load affects all of reality so I doubt it’s anything like LGR (Maybe I really am in need of an Undertale replay LOL but that was pretty blatantly shown in the Omega Flowey fight)
Also I just recalled I’m not even sure if Bookmaker incapping is as likely, given Medaka didn’t get KO’d from it. And DETERMINATION gives WAY better Willpower than what Medaka has.
Alas I’m not sure if Flowey can put Kumagawa down for good (he probably can) but I’ll wait for other UT supporters.
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Misogi does not resist type 2 information haxasriel does not resist type 2 concept hax
kumagawa wins
Flowey wins
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GPR_Shadow
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Iirc, SAVE File is count as hypertimeline right ? So to affect Flowey's ability to SAVE and LOAD Kumagawa needs to reach the SAVE File first
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I am now extremely curious on what this save file is, I am assuming it's essentially a time reversal thing which effects all of reality. This explanation is from the AP section and a 2021 blog which I have 0 clue on whether it's accurate or not. Anyways correct me if I am wrong but the save file is essentially a Hypertimeline that contains all the timelines and the reality itself now Flowey can rewrite the Information of this Hypertimeline.
Say,
The Information of the Hypertimeline is [0001010101110] where
0 is the information used to represent their death, he can simply alter that information and make the Hypertimeline [0001110101110] which in turn resurrects him because he isn't dead which is a bit of LGR (Info) and Time shenanigans even Causality Manipulation. Now Kumagawa's ability should counter this because he simply erases the cause behind events. So he isn't strictly manipulating the Information
0&1 but rather he is ensuring that the (0&1) representing Flowey's existence never happened so there's no (0&1) representing his death for Flowey to overwrite because said (0&1) i.e his death never happened because he never existed so unless Flowey can Info bs his way into existence from never being born/created I think it's fair to say Kumagawa can erase him.But let's adress the elephant in the room,
Both Kumagawa's EE and Bookmaker is ultimately dependent on the fact that he can actually use them against flowey. Kumagawa's causality manipulation has no feats of working on a L1-C scale and his Bookmaker has no feats against a L1-C character so is it NLF to assume that he can do such ? Personally I think yes for Bookmaker but All Fiction is ultimately more debatable because it has shown to work against Concepts so maybe if could work against Flowey even if his resurrection scales to a Hypertimeline at the same time one can meaningfully argue that it won't because Flowey would essentially be rewriting the whole Video on an informational level whereas Kumagawa would be rewriting a singular snapshot.
This would leave Kumagawa wincon less.
Can Flowey use Info hax in an offensive manner if so it's gg and a stomp.Misogi does not resist type 2 information hax
Flowey wins
If he can't and has no other way past what's effectively LGR via causality manipulation then Incon ig
For now I am voting incon
GPR_Shadow
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I'm not that familiar about All fiction and Concept manipulation, but what's make Concept type 2 that works against lower Temporal affect higher temporal ?
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The two don't have any correlation directly, my point was more so "Since he can affect CM-2 on a L2-C scale maybe a L1-C Regen won't be able to negate that" but ultimately that's debatable and with how the wiki treats casualty manipulation not the best feat to crutch on especially given it's Kuma and SBA
I see EE on an Informational level well there's that ig causality manipulation can't really help against that especially with no feats of negating an Info erasure if it was normal EE then there was at least a hope for incon. Guess this is a stomp and can be closed.
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It’s a stomp or be stomped world I suppose
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Kumagawa could prevent Flowey to start with this though. He couldn't interact with the info hax but he could interact with Flowey.
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He could yea but in the end you would be arguing that All Fiction can erase the cause behind the action [Erasure of a L1-C structure] which sounds stupid.
FoxySonicMaster108
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I just remembered Kumagawa wouldn’t even go first anyway, he usually gets hit first meaning in SBA Flowey just info haxes. I’ll request to be closed given it’s a stomp already, just thought I’d point that out.
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Bloodlusted Kumagawa maybe work, both doesn't resist to their principal thought-based haxes, resulting in incon.
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Bump.
Delusionaltx2
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This is a horrendously bad match up for misogi tbh
Misogi is a massive jobber. He's gonna sit there and tank stuff then use AF to undo the dmg. If he does this s*** against asriel he gets info EE'D
He literally lost to the color dude because he just sorta tanked stuff and got incapped. Even zenkichi could put hands on him for a bit before he locked in
Misogi is a massive jobber. He's gonna sit there and tank stuff then use AF to undo the dmg. If he does this s*** against asriel he gets info EE'D
He literally lost to the color dude because he just sorta tanked stuff and got incapped. Even zenkichi could put hands on him for a bit before he locked in
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He's bloodlusted now.
Delusionaltx2
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We've never really seen a bloodlusted kumagawa (at least I don't think so but I haven't seen medaka box in a MINUTE) so it's hard to say if that would change anything
Ig we assume he just leads with AF on asriel? If that's the case then it depends on if you think asriel can save/load himself outta AF (definitely should work on book maker though)
If he can then this is a stomp, if not, then it becomes a who hits who first situation and since AF is thought based whole info EE is gesture based I'd probably lean on misogi
Delusionaltx2
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I'll wait for a minute but I'm leaning towards misogi (it's hard to say though since I'm not sure how a bloodlusted misogi would act considering his loser philosophy)
Delusionaltx2
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Actually without HDE asriel would just be one of those cases where he's physically 3D with low 1-C stats
So misogi can def interact with him it's really just a question of if save load works on conceptual EE. It might not when considering how metaphysical aspects (in this case history vs concept) are normally assumed to not interact with each other but idk
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Not what I meant, I was talking about how Kumagawa can't undo his death i.e revive himself after Flowey uses his Info EE to erase him. On the other hand if Save File does act on a L1-C scale then that's far above Kumagawa's shown capabilities (L2-C) as such there's nothing stopping Flowey from resurrecting using his Info LGR which works on a L1-C scale. I still think that this is a stomp secondly a "bloodlusted" Kuma will just attempt to blindly stab Flowey instead of Opting for EE via All Fiction, at best we would be looking at minor EE and not full blown EE. Saying that kuma's starting move is All Fiction EE in bloodlusted is eh because the only time he used EE was against Zenkichi to teach Shiranui a lesson and he did that knowing Zenkichi would come back. (he had April Fiction then iirc)
Delusionaltx2
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Oh if that's the case then I agree with u there
Reading this made me remember that we still consider range when talking about hax with levels of dimensionality attached to it (4D range, 5D range....etc) which i sorta forgot
Assuming ur talking about that then yeah I actually agree with low 2-C AF not working on low 1-C save since it can't really delete all the history
Figures...(I vaguely remember smth about most of the cast going against killing due to being high schoolers but just sorta pushed it aside)
Delusionaltx2
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Alright I've changed my stance
Asriel stomps for reasons above
Edit: I just realized this is Photoshop flowey not tf asriel so his EE is just 5D history (and he also lacks some of the stuff frisk has) but ig that doesn't change anything since that still outranges the low 2-C AF.
Asriel stomps for reasons above
Edit: I just realized this is Photoshop flowey not tf asriel so his EE is just 5D history (and he also lacks some of the stuff frisk has) but ig that doesn't change anything since that still outranges the low 2-C AF.
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Bloodlusted means that Misogi will use everything at his disposal to kill as quickly as possible. What he did or didn't do in the manga is irrelevant.
Delusionaltx2
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Bloodlusting the character just means they are willing to kill regardless of previously established morals
How they choose to kill still depends on what they do in character.
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