Asriel VS Kumagawa

[TauanVictor]

"Flowey" Asriel Dreemurr VS "Bookmaker User" Misogi Kumagawa​

• Both in-character and 10m away
• Equalized speed
• Omega Flowey | EoS Kumagawa

Asriel:
Kumagawa:
Inconclusive:

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Son

 

[TauanVictor]

Son

?

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

?

What does Kumagawa do against a Low 1-C bruh, not to mention I’m 99% sure Flowey outhaxes

 

[TauanVictor]

What does Kumagawa do against a Low 1-C bruh

He doesn't have HDE so Kumagawa could affect him.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

"Asriel" this some clickbait

 

[Robo432343]

What does Kumagawa do against a Low 1-C bruh, not to mention I’m 99% sure Flowey outhaxes

asriel does not resist type 2 concept hax
kumagawa wins

 

[TauanVictor]

"Asriel" this some clickbait

It's just to turn easy the search lol.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

asriel does not resist type 2 concept hax
kumagawa wins

Would the Conceptual Manip even work on Flowey? Kumagawa has only done it to erase colour to make a person’s skill worthless, and could use it to erase the concept of time if he wanted. Plus I doubt he’d do that off the bat.

If his erasure can affect beings at the conceptual level (I doubt it) and it does work, Flowey takes it 90% of the time at least. Because Flowey’s save and load is some bs, it’d make bookmaker or any other methods to put him down worthless

 

[Cipher72]

Well to start off the SBA is definitely not helping, does Flowey resist causality manipulation or is acausal or sth ?

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Well to start off the SBA is definitely not helping, does Flowey resist causality manipulation or is acausal or sth ?

No, but Save and Load is annoying because Flowey relies on it to come back, thus it’s most likely a hard counter to Misogi’s All Fiction anyway.

 

[Mbpoops]

I mean cm2 kinda negs no?

 

[Cipher72]

No, but Save and Load is annoying because Flowey relies on it to come back, thus it’s most likely a hard counter to Misogi’s All Fiction anyway.

What does that do ? I couldn't find a link to the profiles

 

[Mbpoops]

What does that do ? I couldn't find a link to the profiles

I think it kinda works like immortality where he can just load a previous save file as a revival method

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I mean cm2 kinda negs no?

I don’t think it’s that simple, given Kumagawa hasn’t erased anyone in combat. Also Kumagawa himself doesn’t have Acausality so I don’t even think he’d understand what’s going on when Flowey uses Save and Load.

What does that do ? I couldn't find a link to the profiles

Here


Giving it some more thought, Bookmaker could maybe have a shot at incapping before Flowey thinks to use Save and Load (I believe it’s thought based), but who knows if it would even affect Flowey.

 

[Cipher72]

Snip

I assume it'a the limited Info-2, if it functions similar to LGR then it wouldn't really work even if it uses Info-2 because Kumagawa's EE is causality based so he would erase the very act that resulted in Flowey's existence making Resurrection and anything of the sorts impossible but obviously that's not his SBA as the only time he did that is with Zenkichi and that was because he knew Zenkichi would come back and to teach Shiranui a lesson so yea....
Bookmaker ig ? Can flowey perma kill Kuma though ?

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

snip

Save and Load affects all of reality so I doubt it’s anything like LGR (Maybe I really am in need of an Undertale replay LOL but that was pretty blatantly shown in the Omega Flowey fight)

Also I just recalled I’m not even sure if Bookmaker incapping is as likely, given Medaka didn’t get KO’d from it. And DETERMINATION gives WAY better Willpower than what Medaka has.

Alas I’m not sure if Flowey can put Kumagawa down for good (he probably can) but I’ll wait for other UT supporters.

 

[StrymULTRA]

asriel does not resist type 2 concept hax
kumagawa wins

Misogi does not resist type 2 information hax
Flowey wins

 

[Robo432343]

ewww info hax

 

[StrymULTRA]

ewww info hax

 

[GPR_Shadow]

Iirc, SAVE File is count as hypertimeline right ? So to affect Flowey's ability to SAVE and LOAD Kumagawa needs to reach the SAVE File first

 

[Cipher72]

Save and Load affects all of reality so I doubt it’s anything like LGR

Iirc, SAVE File is count as hypertimeline right ? So to affect Flowey's ability to SAVE and LOAD Kumagawa needs to reach the SAVE File first

I am now extremely curious on what this save file is, I am assuming it's essentially a time reversal thing which effects all of reality. This explanation is from the AP section and a 2021 blog which I have 0 clue on whether it's accurate or not. Anyways correct me if I am wrong but the save file is essentially a Hypertimeline that contains all the timelines and the reality itself now Flowey can rewrite the Information of this Hypertimeline.
Say,
The Information of the Hypertimeline is [0001010101110] where 0 is the information used to represent their death, he can simply alter that information and make the Hypertimeline [0001110101110] which in turn resurrects him because he isn't dead which is a bit of LGR (Info) and Time shenanigans even Causality Manipulation. Now Kumagawa's ability should counter this because he simply erases the cause behind events.

Kumagawa's EE is causality based so he would erase the very act that resulted in Flowey's existence something along the lines of
[Flowey was born](Cause) ------» [Flowey Exists](effect)

So he isn't strictly manipulating the Information 0&1 but rather he is ensuring that the (0&1) representing Flowey's existence never happened so there's no (0&1) representing his death for Flowey to overwrite because said (0&1) i.e his death never happened because he never existed so unless Flowey can Info bs his way into existence from never being born/created I think it's fair to say Kumagawa can erase him.
But let's adress the elephant in the room,
Both Kumagawa's EE and Bookmaker is ultimately dependent on the fact that he can actually use them against flowey. Kumagawa's causality manipulation has no feats of working on a L1-C scale and his Bookmaker has no feats against a L1-C character so is it NLF to assume that he can do such ? Personally I think yes for Bookmaker but All Fiction is ultimately more debatable because it has shown to work against Concepts so maybe if could work against Flowey even if his resurrection scales to a Hypertimeline at the same time one can meaningfully argue that it won't because Flowey would essentially be rewriting the whole Video on an informational level whereas Kumagawa would be rewriting a singular snapshot.
This would leave Kumagawa wincon less.

Misogi does not resist type 2 information hax
Flowey wins

Can Flowey use Info hax in an offensive manner if so it's gg and a stomp.
If he can't and has no other way past what's effectively LGR via causality manipulation then Incon ig
For now I am voting incon

 

[GPR_Shadow]

All Fiction is ultimately more debatable because it has shown to work against Concepts so maybe if could work against Flowey even if his resurrection scales to a Hypertimeline

I'm not that familiar about All fiction and Concept manipulation, but what's make Concept type 2 that works against lower Temporal affect higher temporal ?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Can Flowey use Info hax in an offensive manner if so it's gg and a stomp.

Pretty much (more specifically here at the last page lol)

 

[Cipher72]

I'm not that familiar about All fiction and Concept manipulation, but what's make Concept type 2 that works against lower Temporal affect higher temporal ?

The two don't have any correlation directly, my point was more so "Since he can affect CM-2 on a L2-C scale maybe a L1-C Regen won't be able to negate that" but ultimately that's debatable and with how the wiki treats casualty manipulation not the best feat to crutch on especially given it's Kuma and SBA

more specifically here at the last page lol)

I see EE on an Informational level well there's that ig causality manipulation can't really help against that especially with no feats of negating an Info erasure if it was normal EE then there was at least a hope for incon. Guess this is a stomp and can be closed.

 

[ARandomDude127]

Flowey/Asriel when it comes to always having stomp matches

It’s a stomp or be stomped world I suppose