Kingdom Heart cosmology

[TheGreatJedi13]

The character being able to return to being real after becoming fictional is the proof, as long as the reality-fiction transcendence has evidence substantiating its legitimacy.

Again, that basically posit that they never truly shifted their entirety into fiction and would just be an avatar with an extra step.
If you argue

A.) They have a physical 1-A form and a metaphysical 1-A form, and the metaphysical supersedes the physical and has the ability to shift its state of being. (But this requires explicit evidence)
Then i can concede with that logic

But if you argue
B.) Their 1-A form is the unison or purely metaphysical, and they are bringing this form into the fictional world, and can simply go back to being 1-A through this potential

Then I would disagree, as you would need to first establish this kind of system in FAQ,

Another example could be cosmologies where a higher level originates from the thoughts/beliefs/etc of inhabitants of a lower level; while these thoughts literally originating within the lower reality and then somehow "floating away" to form a higher one would be a disqualifier, no anti-feat is present if the verse has it so these operations simply already exist in a higher reality.

which again needed to be established and elaborated first. Which is something as far as I'm aware Bobsican is working on for several months now, but he hasn't shown me stuff yet, so I can't comment on it.
But currently, the argument within the OP is something that lacks enough evidence to properly allow this kind of assumptions

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Again, that basically posit that they never truly shifted their entirety into fiction and would just be an avatar with an extra step.

That's not what "avatar" means. Under that logic, literally everything in a verse established to have such metaphysical potential would be an avatar.

If you argue

A.) They have a physical 1-A form and a metaphysical 1-A form, and the metaphysical supersedes the physical and has the ability to shift its state of being. (But this requires explicit evidence)
Then i can concede with that logic

But if you argue
B.) Their 1-A form is the unison or purely metaphysical, and they are bringing this form into the fictional world, and can simply go back to being 1-A through this potential

Then I would disagree, as you would need to first establish this kind of system in FAQ,
which again needed to be established and elaborated first. Which is something as far as I'm aware Bobsican is working on for several months now, but he hasn't shown me stuff yet, so I can't comment on it.
But currently, the argument within the OP is something that lacks enough evidence to properly allow this kind of assumptions

I don't know which one the thread is arguing. I was merely attempting to clear up one possible line of reasoning.

 

[Bobsican]

The OP is trying to debunk the currently accepted stuff here, rather than defending or trying to upgrade it, so strictly speaking my side of the argument merely aims to preserve what's currently accepted (if low-balled if anything as this was concluded before the whole revamping for tiering regarding qualitative layers, hence why it has been brought up that it should be "negative High 1-A" levels of 11-C nowadays).

B.) Their 1-A form is the unison or purely metaphysical, and they are bringing this form into the fictional world, and can simply go back to being 1-A through this potential

Then I would disagree, as you would need to first establish this kind of system in FAQ,

With light and darkness making up all that exists, that'd fill the bill of their "1-A form" (in this case the baseline reality level (regular 3-D) given the context) being the unison of metaphysical aspects, and as elaborated earlier (last paragraphs) such metaphysical essence still sustains such lower realities.

The capability for some characters to freely travel in and out of qualitative layers is made a plot point with the Power of Waking, which I think should suffice as a justification as every character traveling in and out of qualitative layers has that or is otherwise assisted by a character with it, with the rest simply retaining their true self in the baseline reality while having dreams.

 

[Thanganimator]

The OP is trying to debunk the currently accepted stuff here, rather than defending or trying to upgrade it, so strictly speaking my side of the argument merely aims to preserve what's currently accepted (if low-balled if anything as this was concluded before the whole revamping for tiering regarding qualitative layers, hence why it has been brought up that it should be "negative High 1-A" levels of 11-C nowadays).


With light and darkness making up all that exists, that'd fill the bill of their "1-A form" (in this case the baseline reality level (regular 3-D) given the context) being the unison of metaphysical aspects, and as elaborated earlier (last paragraphs) such metaphysical essence still sustains such lower realities.

The capability for some characters to freely travel in and out of qualitative layers is made a plot point with the Power of Waking, which I think should suffice as a justification as every character traveling in and out of qualitative layers has that or is otherwise assisted by a character with it, with the rest simply retaining their true self in the baseline reality while having dreams.

"So, have you accepted that Quadratum doesn't belong in Tier 11 yet?

In the end, it’s just a matter of the limited perception of the two worlds, so it’s not really a big deal. One side views the other as "fiction" while seeing themselves as "reality"—and it’s exactly the same the other way around.

The Power of Waking allows movement between worlds, but it can also be used in other ways, like how Sora rewrote history. Besides, Sora didn’t even reach Quadratum using the Power of Waking anyway. Therefore, it makes more sense for Quadratum to be just as "real" as Sora’s world, because reality can contain reality.

My main goal is simply to get Quadratum out of Tier 11; I don’t really care about it hitting Tier 1. I just want it to be around 3D or 4D or something like that"

 

[Bobsican]

Sora specifically ended up in Quadratum out of using the Power of Waking in an unintended manner (watch until around 2:14), case in point Riku even directly uses the Power of Waking to get to Quadratum.

Quadratum not having light/darkness seems to be actively contradicted with Riku seemingly retaining his powers unlike Sora (given he used the PoW in a correct manner to do so and it's stated that he can go back), as well as the known lore of hearts being indirectly stated to go to Quadratum after death once they move on from the Final World as it's a sort of afterlife, which the KH4 trailer confirms, so with that in mind the argument previously brought up to justify the capability to cross between different levels of reality while respecting proper R>F also applies for Quadratum.

 

[Thanganimator]

Sora specifically ended up in Quadratum out of using the Power of Waking in an unintended manner (watch until around 2:14), case in point Riku even directly uses the Power of Waking to get to Quadratum.

Quadratum not having light/darkness seems to be actively contradicted with Riku seemingly retaining his powers unlike Sora (given he used the PoW in a correct manner to do so and it's stated that he can go back), as well as the known lore of hearts being indirectly stated to go to Quadratum after death once they move on from the Final World as it's a sort of afterlife, which the KH4 trailer confirms, so with that in mind the argument previously brought up to justify the capability to cross between different levels of reality while respecting proper R>F also applies for Quadratum.

"Sora didn't use the Power of Waking to get there; he ended up there as the price he had to pay for breaking the rules. Chirithy even stated that Sora would lose the Power of Waking. Besides, Sora clearly still retains his strength in the fight against Yozora and in the trailers.

Using the Power of Waking to descend to the "lower tier" doesn't automatically make Quadratum 2D. Even the worlds within the Sleeping Worlds possess their own space-time, making them 4D constructs.

The fact that both sides view each other as "fiction" still depends entirely on their mutual perception. As Vietthai mentioned, this doesn't impact the cosmology, so there is no loss of R>F (Reality over Fiction) transcendence, nor is Quadratum actually fiction."

 

[Bobsican]

"Sora didn't use the Power of Waking to get there; he ended up there as the price he had to pay for breaking the rules. Chirithy even stated that Sora would lose the Power of Waking. Besides, Sora clearly still retains his strength in the fight against Yozora and in the trailers.

A price that was caused by using it in the first place, so it was ultimately caused by it for these purposes, case in point if Sora didn't have the PoW nothing of this would've happened.

Sora evidently simply lost his powers a bit later from the Yozora fight as much Chirithy explained the consequences to him in the future tense, as much he still had everything in the events of Re:Mind, the KH4 trailers don't really showcase him as still having everything like before, in fact the whole plot is started on Sora's inability to go back on his own, which is relevant as this inability is caused by him losing his powers to begin with as stated by Chirithy, so to claim otherwise just invites a big plot hole / contradiction over just going with what's being confirmed.

Using the Power of Waking to descend to the "lower tier" doesn't automatically make Quadratum 2D. Even the worlds within the Sleeping Worlds possess their own space-time, making them 4D constructs.

Eh? This isn't dimensional tiering, but rather of the qualitative kind, so that's not an argument to begin with and just comes across as being unaware of how this kind of tiering even works. The practice of treating R>Fs and dimensional layers as the exact same thing hasn't been done for years for a variety of good reasons.

The fact that both sides view each other as "fiction" still depends entirely on their mutual perception. As Vietthai mentioned, this doesn't impact the cosmology, so there is no loss of R>F (Reality over Fiction) transcendence, nor is Quadratum actually fiction."

Uh no, that was regarding specifically any claims using either in-universe side thinking that the other is fictional / real as a basis, rather than any details whatsoever pertaining Quadratum and the surrounding known cosmological structure.

Those are just different people's perspective, it do not have any impact on cosmology whatsoever

 

[Thanganimator]

A price that was caused by using it in the first place, so it was ultimately caused by it for these purposes, case in point if Sora didn't have the PoW nothing of this would've happened.

Sora evidently simply lost his powers a bit later from the Yozora fight as much Chirithy explained the consequences to him in the future tense, as much he still had everything in the events of Re:Mind, the KH4 trailers don't really showcase him as still having everything like before, in fact the whole plot is started on Sora's inability to go back on his own, which is relevant as this inability is caused by him losing his powers to begin with as stated by Chirithy, so to claim otherwise just invites a big plot hole / contradiction over just going with what's being confirmed.


Eh? This isn't dimensional tiering, but rather of the qualitative kind, so that's not an argument to begin with and just comes across as being unaware of how this kind of tiering even works. The practice of treating R>Fs and dimensional layers as the exact same thing hasn't been done for years for a variety of good reasons.


Uh no, that was regarding specifically any claims using either in-universe side thinking that the other is fictional / real as a basis, rather than any details whatsoever pertaining Quadratum and the surrounding known cosmological structure.

"Sora was struck by the "price to pay" (the penalty); it's not like he used the Power of Waking to travel to Quadratum of his own free will.

And obviously, Sora still retains his powers. The trailer shows him wielding the Keyblade and even creating a drill-like.

Wait, I never claimed that "reality" and "fiction" exist on the same level. My point is that while the Power of Waking can be used to travel to lower tiers, you can't use that as a justification to lock Quadratum into Tier 11. Just like the Sleeping Worlds, it still functions as a higher-dimensional structure.

The conclusion regarding the cosmology remains unchanged: Ansem and the others think Quadratum is fiction, but they’ve never actually set foot there. It’s like you watching other countries through a screen without ever visiting them—how could you possibly grasp the true nature of whether that place is "real" or "fictional"?

Even the Master of Masters, who has been there, only dropped a few cryptic lines about it; he never once explicitly stated that Quadratum is fiction."

 

[Bobsican]

"Sora was struck by the "price to pay" (the penalty); it's not like he used the Power of Waking to travel to Quadratum of his own free will.

Irrelevant, it was still caused by using the manipulation of light and darkness in a manner forbidden by nature that caused his state of being to end there, the whole point is on this still falling as a proper way to fall into a lower reality that still respects a proper R>F, rather than this being something under control.

And obviously, Sora still retains his powers. The trailer shows him wielding the Keyblade and even creating a drill-like.

Sora generally doesn't lose all of his powers, as much the plot of CoM, KH2, KH3D and KH3 can tell you, but ultimately it's still clear that he doesn't retain them properly as noted with the whole implicit inability to use the Power of Waking, especially as he's been trapped in Quadratum for a year.

Wait, I never claimed that "reality" and "fiction" exist on the same level. My point is that while the Power of Waking can be used to travel to lower tiers, you can't use that as a justification to lock Quadratum into Tier 11. Just like the Sleeping Worlds, it still functions as a higher-dimensional structure.

The conclusion regarding the cosmology remains unchanged: Ansem and the others think Quadratum is fiction, but they’ve never actually set foot there. It’s like you watching other countries through a screen without ever visiting them—how could you possibly grasp the true nature of whether that place is "real" or "fictional"?

Even the Master of Masters, who has been there, only dropped a few cryptic lines about it; he never once explicitly stated that Quadratum is fiction."

Based on what information? In the best case scenario of your argument Quadratum is still not far away from the existencial level of the Station of Awakening / The Final World, which in themselves sit qualitatively below a set of R>Fs within R>Fs. If that wasn't the case, the majority of the cast (namely including those that mundanely die) wouldn't need to cross into The Final World before going to Quadratum.

I can concede on just ignoring Quadratum as far tiering goes for the time being, but the overall set of R>Fs with the whole dream within dreams junk and the SoA / TFW would still net "negative" High 1-A (to reiterate, deep in 11-C).

 

[Thanganimator]

Irrelevant, it was still caused by using the manipulation of light and darkness in a manner forbidden by nature that caused his state of being to end there, the whole point is on this still falling as a proper way to fall into a lower reality that still respects a proper R>F, rather than this being something under control.


Sora generally doesn't lose all of his powers, as much the plot of CoM, KH2, KH3D and KH3 can tell you, but ultimately it's still clear that he doesn't retain them properly as noted with the whole implicit inability to use the Power of Waking, especially as he's been trapped in Quadratum for a year.


Based on what information? In the best case scenario of your argument Quadratum is still not far away from the existencial level of the Station of Awakening / The Final World, which in themselves sit qualitatively below a set of R>Fs within R>Fs. If that wasn't the case, the majority of the cast (namely including those that mundanely die) wouldn't need to cross into The Final World before going to Quadratum.

I can concede on just ignoring Quadratum as far tiering goes for the time being, but the overall set of R>Fs with the whole dream within dreams junk and the SoA / TFW would still net "negative" High 1-A (to reiterate, deep in 11-C).

Exactly—we’re basically operating on the crumbs of information provided by Nomura and the Master of Masters.

The statements made by characters from Sora’s world are already unreliable because of what Nomura himself said: Quadratum exists outside of Sora’s world and beneath the R>F structures.

However, I don’t buy that. If Quadratum can observe, feel, and perceive Sora’s world, how can it be "less real"? I see them as two distinct realms, but there is zero concrete evidence to prove it’s a "lower tier" than the R>F layers. Since most in-game statements are untrustworthy, claiming that Quadratum sits below the R>F hierarchy is a huge stretch

 

[Bobsican]

Exactly—we’re basically operating on the crumbs of information provided by Nomura and the Master of Masters.

The statements made by characters from Sora’s world are already unreliable because of what Nomura himself said: Quadratum exists outside of Sora’s world and beneath the R>F structures.

However, I don’t buy that. If Quadratum can observe, feel, and perceive Sora’s world, how can it be "less real"? I see them as two distinct realms, but there is zero concrete evidence to prove it’s a "lower tier" than the R>F layers. Since most in-game statements are untrustworthy, claiming that Quadratum sits below the R>F hierarchy is a huge stretch

We only know that the statements pertaining Quadratum in-universe are of dubious reliability, but that does not apply to the knowledge of the rest of the cosmology (for the purposes in here the Sleeping Worlds, the SoA and TFW).

That said, it doesn't seem that you're trying to oppose this (now) separate premise either way, so it seems like now it'd be a matter of waiting for staff input.

 

[Thanganimator]

Bump

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Bobsican]

Stuff

Stuff

Stuff

Abusing Xenforo loopholes to ping staff, what do you think of what has been concluded so far? In summary the current agreements lean on just treating Quadratum as untierable size-wise for now, but the Sleeping Worlds still would have a valid case of R>F stuff, in total netting now "- High 1-A" (deep in 11-C) over just regular "- 1-A" (also deep in 11-C, to keep it clear) as there's a showcased layer that's unreachable to any stacking of R>Fs within R>Fs (the Station of Awakening and The Final World), with the setting having a metaphysical essense making up all of reality and specifically including such R>Fs.

in practice this only affects the current scale for the capability of some characters to BFR by killing as priorly accepted in the CRT that originally made this "- 1-A" as alluded previously, given that we do know that strong hearts pass across The Final World after death before moving on, which matters as even if they get to Quadratum afterwards (the place to "move on"), it's evident that they'd still have to travel across this set of R>Fs as it's not as simple as going from the baseline reality directly to Quadratum, given this is a series where multiversal travel is very cheap among main characters and no one could find Sora in this manner for a year (nor could Sora go back).

The core arguments are here for your convenience:

Uh no, moving from reality to fiction is not an inherent anti-feat for R>F, the usual problem is when the opposite (going from fiction to an higher reality) happens without a justification that still respects the implications of a proper R>F, and with the way hearts in KH work there's enough room for that to be argued to be the case. All of that said, that sort of arguments are being kept for a future thread, so if you're going to lean on that direction it'd be best to wait in that case (rushing the topic and its research wouldn't be ideal, after all).

What? I'm afraid I never said that, as noted before darkness (and by extension light per their nature) make up dreams within dreams, aka R>Fs, so the argument instead lingers on such metaphysical essence that permeates across all levels of reality resulting on reasonable potential to simply become qualitatively inferior while still respecting proper R>F implications, you keep acting like as if this can't be justified while still being proper qualitative layers when that's not how it works.

"Sora will never wake up. No matter how many of Sora's nightmares you feed on those who have fallen into the abyss of dreams will never wake from their slumber."

Memories become dreams, and dreams are in sleep. And that sleep is darkness. Sora's heart has fallen into darkness. Can you believe that Sora has fallen into darkness? You've felt it, too. This world, this nightmare, this abyss of darkness. Why haven't you... Not been back in the real world? You're not back there. A dream of a dream, a nightmare within a nightmare... You've been traveling in Sora's dream. And now you're going to fall into the darkness within the darkness.

The OP is trying to debunk the currently accepted stuff here, rather than defending or trying to upgrade it, so strictly speaking my side of the argument merely aims to preserve what's currently accepted (if low-balled if anything as this was concluded before the whole revamping for tiering regarding qualitative layers, hence why it has been brought up that it should be "negative High 1-A" levels of 11-C nowadays).


With light and darkness making up all that exists, that'd fill the bill of their "1-A form" (in this case the baseline reality level (regular 3-D) given the context) being the unison of metaphysical aspects, and as elaborated earlier (last paragraphs) such metaphysical essence still sustains such lower realities.

The capability for some characters to freely travel in and out of qualitative layers is made a plot point with the Power of Waking, which I think should suffice as a justification as every character traveling in and out of qualitative layers has that or is otherwise assisted by a character with it, with the rest simply retaining their true self in the baseline reality while having dreams.

 

[KingTempest]

Sorry I've been, kinda afk. Irl stuff.

I've looked at the thread and honestly I have no idea about tier 1 stuff. Like Low 1-C and 1-C I can try, but above that I suck. Plus you need admins for tier 1 so yeah

 

[DBZMLP12345]

Man....i come back and see a good amount of KH Characters getting upgraded from Low 1-C to 1-C, but now i see people talking about 1-A and High 1-A KH? This is news to me....

 

[Bobsican]

Reminder that it's all still tier 11 per relevancy standards as far the baseline reality goes as much 99% of verses aren't made outerversal by having dreams or TV media in them.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Vietthai96]

Abusing Xenforo loopholes to ping staff, what do you think of what has been concluded so far? In summary the current agreements lean on just treating Quadratum as untierable size-wise for now, but the Sleeping Worlds still would have a valid case of R>F stuff, in total netting now "- High 1-A" (deep in 11-C) over just regular "- 1-A" (also deep in 11-C, to keep it clear) as there's a showcased layer that's unreachable to any stacking of R>Fs within R>Fs (the Station of Awakening and The Final World), with the setting having a metaphysical essense making up all of reality and specifically including such R>Fs.

in practice this only affects the current scale for the capability of some characters to BFR by killing as priorly accepted in the CRT that originally made this "- 1-A" as alluded previously, given that we do know that strong hearts pass across The Final World after death before moving on, which matters as even if they get to Quadratum afterwards (the place to "move on"), it's evident that they'd still have to travel across this set of R>Fs as it's not as simple as going from the baseline reality directly to Quadratum, given this is a series where multiversal travel is very cheap among main characters and no one could find Sora in this manner for a year (nor could Sora go back).

The core arguments are here for your convenience:

well, i think we just treating Quadratum as untierable, the Sleeping World having tier 11-C downward is oke

 

[Thanganimator]

Bump.

well, i think we just treating Quadratum as untierable, the Sleeping World having tier 11-C downward is oke

In general, my friend is somewhat satisfied with Quadratum's unknown tier, and he said he'll talk about the R>F issues later.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Abusing Xenforo loopholes to ping staff, what do you think of what has been concluded so far? In summary the current agreements lean on just treating Quadratum as untierable size-wise for now, but the Sleeping Worlds still would have a valid case of R>F stuff, in total netting now "- High 1-A" (deep in 11-C) over just regular "- 1-A" (also deep in 11-C, to keep it clear) as there's a showcased layer that's unreachable to any stacking of R>Fs within R>Fs (the Station of Awakening and The Final World), with the setting having a metaphysical essense making up all of reality and specifically including such R>Fs.

in practice this only affects the current scale for the capability of some characters to BFR by killing as priorly accepted in the CRT that originally made this "- 1-A" as alluded previously, given that we do know that strong hearts pass across The Final World after death before moving on, which matters as even if they get to Quadratum afterwards (the place to "move on"), it's evident that they'd still have to travel across this set of R>Fs as it's not as simple as going from the baseline reality directly to Quadratum, given this is a series where multiversal travel is very cheap among main characters and no one could find Sora in this manner for a year (nor could Sora go back).

The core arguments are here for your convenience:

I suppose this makes sense in lack of better options, but looking back. The lower realities that were originally proposed as tiers below 11-C or treated below 0-D characters never really made much sense to me.

 

[Bobsican]

I suppose this makes sense in lack of better options, but looking back. The lower realities that were originally proposed as tiers below 11-C or treated below 0-D characters never really made much sense to me.

Uh, that's still the current proposal the discussion has leaned to, making what we currently deem the baseline reality "proper" High 1-A isn't what's being agreed on by other staff so far, so you may want to explain your point of view on the matter.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[DBZMLP12345]

So if this gets accepted, would Sora and the others go from 1-C to 1-A? Or would it only apply to the Cosmology as a whole?

 

[Bobsican]

To reiterate and avoid misconceptions, the current proposal is just to make all of this R>F hierarchy as below the baseline reality, aka, 11-C, with the main change over what's currently accepted being that it's on a "negative" High 1-A scale over a "negative" 1-A one.

 

[Vietthai96]

So if this gets accepted, would Sora and the others go from 1-C to 1-A? Or would it only apply to the Cosmology as a whole?

It is 1-A but downward, or 11-C - qualitative inferiority

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

Given that technically this is a tier 11 thread over a 1-A one I'm unsure how much more staff input is required.

 

[Thanganimator]

Bump.

Given that technically this is a tier 11 thread over a 1-A one I'm unsure how much more staff input is required.

Therefore, Sora's Small Size Type 9 should be removed for now, as the staff has already accepted Quadratum as an unknown tier.

 

[Bobsican]

No objections there on my part, to be clear, he'd still have it while in The Final World and other parts of the Sleeping Worlds, however.

 

[Thanganimator]

No objections there on my part, to be clear, he'd still have it while in The Final World and other parts of the Sleeping Worlds, however.

In general, all I need now is for one staff member to agree on the unknown tier for Quadratum; I'm not really interested in talking about R>F too much, I'm mainly doing this for my friend.

 

[Bobsican]

In general, all I need now is for one staff member to agree on the unknown tier for Quadratum; I'm not really interested in talking about R>F too much, I'm mainly doing this for my friend.

well, i think we just treating Quadratum as untierable, the Sleeping World having tier 11-C downward is oke

That much seems to be settled, especially as I don't think that such bit in particular would need more staff input, although Vietthai96 may want to confirm.

 

[Vietthai96]

What i need to confirm?

 

[Bobsican]

Whether if the current staff input suffices for settling the claim that Quadratum is untierable at present as far qualitative stuff is concerned given the known dubiousness of all in-universe information pertaining it on that regard.

 

[Vietthai96]

Whether if the current staff input suffices for settling the claim that Quadratum is untierable at present as far qualitative stuff is concerned given the known dubiousness of all in-universe information pertaining it on that regard.

If you are asking about if the current votes is enough then no, need more

@Qawsedf234 @Elizhaa @Planck69 @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Reiner04

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

From what I can tell, Quadratum does seem difficult to tier based on the information at hand.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Thanganimator]

Bump.

How many staffs we need to done this CRT?

 

[Thanganimator]

From what I can tell, Quadratum does seem difficult to tier based on the information at hand.

If you are asking about if the current votes is enough then no, need more

@Qawsedf234 @Elizhaa @Planck69 @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Reiner04

In my opinion, with the current situation and two staff members agreeing, that's enough to consider Quadratam as a tier unknown, right?