The Ashen One vs Isaac (Dark Souls 3 vs Golden Sun) - "A dark eclipse" 1-4-0

[Kalaam]

Lord of the Hollows vs Warrior of Vale
RERUN​

Parameters

• Speed = ​
• Both around 4-C​
• No tier 4+ summons​
• Maxxed stats and gear for Ashen One​
• Full 72 djinn loadout for Isaac​
• Ashen One is versed in magic enough to perceive Psynergy and see the spells​
• The power of the first flame is finite, though not defined.​

Votes -

Ashen One:
XSoulofCinderX

Isaac:
Kalaam
Kazuma_kuwabara
Raiden38
MannyQ361
Inconclusive/Draw:

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

This fight already happened and both characters did not recieve anything new, so it would be still inconclusive

Maybe I am wrong

 

[Kalaam]

I have seen it while making it again, and I think it's possible to reach a conclusion. We saw that the revivals through the fire aren't infinite and it's possible to go hollow with repeated deaths.
I've also seen brougth up the abilities to seal powers away for a time that wasn't brougth up in the original discussion. While it wouldn't stop the revivals, Isaac's seal spell (or djinn like luff) would disable most of the Ashen One's magic abilities consistently enough, and repeatibly, which would turn it into a very long war of attrition.On the other hand, miracles that prevent the use of magic wouldn't work on Isaac since they specifically stop it by blocking sounds and incantations, which are not needed for psynergy. So the Ashen One has no way to stop Isaac from spamming spells, while his own arsenal can get shut down, including magical healing.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

We don't accept the player characters as being able to go Hollow on here which is specifically why they're able to do the things they do, so just killing them a shit ton of times and expecting them to give up their will to live is not a wincon like it is with other Dark Souls characters.

 

[Kalaam]

That seems very arbitrary, because then they just can never loose unless you destroy the world. Kind of the point is that among a lot of ashen ones, (including all the other player characters) a lot of them can end up giving up. (anyone who quits the game, even some challenge runners who would personnify the hardest of will for the ashen one sometime give up on some fights)

Part of the story of the Ashen One is that they failed to link the fire in the past because their soul and will was too weak, they grew stronger and succeed now, but that doesn't mean they can't be beaten.
Just saying they have infinite respawns is kind of a copout. Plus it is canon that each death weighs on the soul more and more and that's how you eventually go hollow. Dark Souls 2 explains it fairly well, and if they don't get new souls they will eventually go hollow. And leaving to go grind some would count as a loss.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Plus it is canon that each death weighs on the soul

I think this happens to everyone except the player, but unless the playable character finds it impossible to do anything to the boss, then they would not become hollow

 

[Kalaam]

There's nothing that says it doesn't happen to the player. It's something that can't be properly told gameplay wise for obvious reasons. Though they tried throuhout the serie.
Such as when you attack NPCs unprovoked (to get items for example) they assume you went hollow because you are going on a murderous rampage. There is theories that it is what's happening when you choose that path, abandonning humanity and stuff.

Because otherwise what would be a wincon against them other than existence erasure or total universal destruction at this point ?
Isaac could destroy the bonfire he respawns from, this would be a wincon given the Ashen one couldn't return as easily wouldn't it ?

 

[Kalaam]

So yeah so far the wincons I can think of are:
-Battlefield removal (through certain djinns)
-Draining the humanity away through repeated defeats (contentious)
-Destroying the respawn point then killing the Ashen One.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

-Battlefield removal (through certain djinns)

This is his best win con, he can do it with ease

 

[Kalaam]

That's what i'm thinking as well but apparently some were saying it was inconsistent before. I am not sure why, even if it has not a 100% chance of working each time, it's repeatable. Between that and just destroying the bonfire I believe Isaac does have a solid wincon that would grant him the win in an otherwise even matchup in term of stats and haxes. What do you think ?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

For the record bonfires aren't necessary to respawn as if you die at the start of the game without hitting the first bonfire then you respawn at your grave you crawled out of.

 

[Kalaam]

It still resets your starting point though. Hell in Dark Souls 1 there's a whole point about you getting trapped to respawn at specific bonfires at least two times (Duke Archive and Anor Londo if you kill Priscilla). So targetting the bonfire so that anchor is gone and the Ashen One either reappears to another one (or back to their starting grave) is a valid wincon as it effectively ends the fight.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Can you prove that Isaac can even destroy the bonfire in the first place? As silly as it might sound, we do know that they can tank attacks from the Ashen One and characters on their level since they don't break when you hit them. Hell, the Soul of Cinder has to visibly struggle just to pull the coiled sword out of the First Flame's bonfire at the start of their fight so these things are pretty tough.

 

[Kalaam]

I mean you can't destroy shaky brick walls in game either so that's not really and argument.
Isaac has enough terrain destructing/altering abilities to effectively remove the bonfire. Digging it out, blasting away the whole arena and so on. In DS1, when the First Flame was still the strongest out of the whole trilogy, just killing a fire keeper would extinguish her related bonfire.

Isaac dealt with resurrecting ennemies before (Wonder Birds and so on) so would soon enough realize how the Ashen one comes back to life and turn his attacks toward the bonfire itself. Coupled with battlefield removal abilities to just get the Ashen One out of the arena anyway, that gives a clear wincon.

As for the strength required to pull it, I think either physically or through telekynesis Isaac has enough lifting strength to do so, if it's even that hard.

If the fight was narrated, animated or drawn and so, it's quite possible it'd turns out to be the Ashen One themselves pulling it out to use the First Flame's power through it in a last bet and the fight would end there after that clash. Rather than fight a losing defensive match dying over and over to protect their respawn point.

 

[Kalaam]

Alright I guess it's time to count votes ? Please say who you think wins based on shared points and I'll note them in the original post

 

[Kalaam]

Well this is the end it seems.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

You can't end a versus thread without at least seven votes on one side.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Also I didn't tackle this earlier but Isaac explicitly doesn't have the Lifting Strength needed to pull that sword out of the ground. He's only Class 5 where as the Soul of Cinder was Class M and it had to put a decent chunk of effort into pulling it out of the bonfire.

 

[Planck69]

Well this is the end it seems.

You need at least 7 votes and a three vote difference to add a match. This one is not concluded at all.

 

[Chritin]

Conclusion:
Despite its immortality and and possibly better stats (without buffs) the Ashen One has no actual wincon other than wearing down Isaac, which COULD work if Isaac didn't have other and easier wincons to fulfill.
Though some djinn (notably Gale) Isaac can fully remove the Ashen One from battle, effectively ending the fight. (to return the Ashen One would need to warp from another bonfire, which as seen in game advances time, too slow to count as the same encounter) or Isaac could destroy the bonfire the Ashen One is respawning from altogether with terrain altering effects or brute force (such as summons). In which case the Ashen One would be forced to defend the bonfire and be stuck on the defensive until they either give up, fail, or gamble on using the bonfire's sword as a last resortlike the Soul of Cinder.
Isaac also has way more haxes that could give him opportunities for different kills (several insta-kill status effects (Curse or Insta-death), Sleep to allow for a free attack, deadly poison, magic seal, paralysis and stagger, none of which the Ashen One resists) allowing him to slowly make his way toward a victory.

Winner: Isaac

First off, as a general rule of thumb, you can not declare winners until a thread is finished. Not only is it against the rules, but it tis better to encourage people to read the actual thread and udnerstand all arguments before voting even though most people say "X Character wins fra.

That seems very arbitrary, because then they just can never loose unless you destroy the world. Kind of the point is that among a lot of ashen ones, (including all the other player characters) a lot of them can end up giving up. (anyone who quits the game, even some challenge runners who would personnify the hardest of will for the ashen one sometime give up on some fights)

Part of the story of the Ashen One is that they failed to link the fire in the past because their soul and will was too weak, they grew stronger and succeed now, but that doesn't mean they can't be beaten.
Just saying they have infinite respawns is kind of a copout. Plus it is canon that each death weighs on the soul more and more and that's how you eventually go hollow. Dark Souls 2 explains it fairly well, and if they don't get new souls they will eventually go hollow. And leaving to go grind some would count as a loss.

It isn't arbitrary. Unlike the other games, the Ashen one canonically does not go hollow regularly upon death. Hollowing is only initiated through dying while holding dark sigils, and can be readily cured with purging stones. Granted, in the Lord of Hollows ending you do need to have the required amount of purging stones - meaning they do at some point begin to hollow - but not only can they cure it like I mentioned, there is no evidence that hollowing is entirely debilitating to the player character. Especially in the lord of hollows ending, where they embrace the undead curse, its shown in each game that despite hollowing the player character can resist. So no, infinite respawns is not a cop out.

So yeah so far the wincons I can think of are:
-Battlefield removal (through certain djinns)
-Draining the humanity away through repeated defeats (contentious)
-Destroying the respawn point then killing the Ashen One.

So is there a bonfire in this matchup? In which case, BFR has no major effect since the Ashen on can teleport back to the bonfire basically instantly. Using a homeward bone or the bonfire sword piece.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Even if they run out of homeward bones or somehow lose the coiled sword fragment then they can use the Dark Sign to teleport back to the bonfire at the cost of their souls.

 

[Kalaam]

First off, as a general rule of thumb, you can not declare winners until a thread is finished. Not only is it against the rules, but it tis better to encourage people to read the actual thread and udnerstand all arguments before voting even though most people say "X Character wins fra.


It isn't arbitrary. Unlike the other games, the Ashen one canonically does not go hollow regularly upon death. Hollowing is only initiated through dying while holding dark sigils, and can be readily cured with purging stones. Granted, in the Lord of Hollows ending you do need to have the required amount of purging stones - meaning they do at some point begin to hollow - but not only can they cure it like I mentioned, there is no evidence that hollowing is entirely debilitating to the player character. Especially in the lord of hollows ending, where they embrace the undead curse, its shown in each game that despite hollowing the player character can resist. So no, infinite respawns is not a cop out.


So is there a bonfire in this matchup? In which case, BFR has no major effect since the Ashen on can teleport back to the bonfire basically instantly. Using a homeward bone or the bonfire sword piece.

My apologies, given there was not anymore answer or argument I thought the thread was finished.

Regarding the other points, yes it's true they can warp back to that one with homeward bones or coiled sword (though not sure time doesn't pass when you do, since it respawns ennemies and I think advances questlines like resting at one ? Might need to check)

Regarding hollowing, sure they can cure it, but not in the middle of the fight and it makes sense for the Lord of Hollow ending Ashen One (the one being used here) to not cure Hollowing. That's the whole start of that quest, removing it that way would mean giving them prior knowledge that they'll fight an ennemy that'll kill them enough time for hollowing to become a problem.

In both cases though, removing the bonfire would stop their return to the arena (not kill them, but force them away). And that's a wincon, I believe.

I'll edit the conclusion away.

Edit: Done. So how do we decide on when it's over ?

 

[Kalaam]

Alright, been a week. So how should we proceed in order to reach a conclusion here ? There isn't enough people interrested, but it feels wrong to just say inconclusive.

 

[Raiden38]

Imo Isaac win

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Alright, been a week. So how should we proceed in order to reach a conclusion here ? There isn't enough people interrested, but it feels wrong to just say inconclusive.

One thing btw

When you want to make this thread be visible in the "what's new " list

You can post "bump" every 24 hours

 

[Kalaam]

One thing btw

When you want to make this thread be visible in the "what's new " list

You can post "bump" every 24 hours

Oh that often ? I thought that'd be way too spammy. Thanks.

We are at 4 votes now. Am I allowed to list how many votes there is in the title ?

 

[Kellex]

Oh wow, an actual Golden Sun matchup in 2026? I don't remember the last time the verse got a matchup.

 

[Kalaam]

Oh wow, an actual Golden Sun matchup in 2026? I don't remember the last time the verse got a matchup.

I actually posted another one a bit before this one. Though it got considered a stomp lol. Alex vs Kuja.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

We are at 4 votes now. Am I allowed to list how many votes there is in the title ?

Yes

 

[Kalaam]

Yes

Thanks.

 

[Kalaam]

Bump !

 

[MannyQ361]

Voting Isaac fra.

 

[Kalaam]

We're now at 5 out of 7 votes. Once at 7 I'll wait a week before writing a conclusion so anyone else could come in (i'll keep bumping to keep things fair).

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

We're now at 5 out of 7 votes. Once at 7 I'll wait a week before writing a conclusion so anyone else could come in

When a character has 7 votes, there is a period called grace, after 24 hours, the fight can be added to the profile

 

[Kalaam]

When a character has 7 votes, there is a period called grace, after 24 hours, the fight can be added to the profile

I figured there was something like that, though couldn't find the rule. I figured a week was a good enough margin.

 

[Kellex]

I figured there was something like that, though couldn't find the rule. I figured a week was a good enough margin.

You can find the Versus Thread Rules here including the website, editing, and discussion rules.
There's also the Help Pages at the top for easier access from the forum.

 

[Kalaam]

You can find the Versus Thread Rules here including the website, editing, and discussion rules.
There's also the Help Pages at the top for easier access from the forum.

I'm ashamed not to have found that.

 

[Kalaam]

Bump !