Universal Energy System Standards

[KingTempest]

Good afternoon everybody.

I'm splitting my evening in half to talk about how bad our UES page is and why it needs to be elaborated on, or at least have standards put in place for them, because there's a problem with our wiki's overindulgence in "making people scale to attacks they shouldn't scale to" based on "we use the same type of energy for both".

Now Look​

Here is our wiki page for the Energy Systems page.

Universal Energy Systems

Universal Energy Systems are a fairly common element in fictional stories possessed by certain characters to display incredible feats and powers, often being born out of fantastical or otherwise otherworldly elements such as Magic, Chakra, Chi and a myriad of other possible energy systems. Often...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Does anyone notice a problem?
I do.

It looks like the page is intending to explain "Energy Systems", but instead it looks like a page built for "try your hardest to get a UES, and here's what you need to do".
This is like calling the speed page the Speed of Light page because everyone tries to get characters to FTL.
It sucks.

On top of that, the issues with said UES is that very rarely in fiction do characters often utilize the same amount of a magical energy source in their physical attacks as they do with their magical ones.

Here is the explanation for a UES

• Universal Energy System: Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would also scale to all other statistics. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

Here is what you need to do to get one

Universal Energy Systems​

In order to qualify for a Universal Energy System and do scaling according to it, a character or the system they are using needs to fulfill all criteria for a Non-physical Energy System. Additionally, they have to demonstrate that they can channel their power through their own bodies in a way that quantifiably enhances them or otherwise allows scaling of their supernatural powers through their physicals. Hence there should be evidence that an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics. In the rare case that it is relevant for scaling the reverse should also be demonstrated: That a feat of non-empowered physical strength applies to the amount of supernatural power. Visual evidence of amplification is not considered necessary.

If the power source or universal energy system should be removed from a user by some means that should result in a notable loss in physical strength or alternatively even in physical harm or death. That doesn't necessarily mean that they should be reduced to the level of regular humans, though. Note that removal of energy sources can also have detrimental effects if they are not universal and as such negative effects of removal do not necessarily imply universalness.

It should be noted that systems don't need to be continously active. Some systems might only enhance statistics while the character physically channels energy though their body, while other systems do so passively as long as energy is available.

Does nobody see the problem with this?
I'll say it.

The UES page makes it seem like all because you can utilize the same type of energy into your physical attacks, it automatically assumes that you can use the same amount of energy in them.
This is so... bad, and it makes room for people to scale to attacks that they need to charge up for 3 chapters in order to do.

I made a thread regarding one of our examples, Naruto and chakra, and in this thread I noticed that although there are times characters can input a lot of energy into their physical attacks, that takes a completely different energy of energy control to do so and it is extremely rare, and regarding magical attacks and spells and such, things such as the element the energy is transmuted into or even the shape can give a different level of strength.

A big thing about Ninjutsu scaling to physicals is that the effects of jutsu vary between their elements, making it superior than if you just blast out chakra.
Just like the chakra absorbing paper, how putting lightning makes it wrinkle, wind makes it tear, fire makes it burn, water makes it wet, and earth makes it crumble.
It can be assumed that each showcase inputs the same amount of chakra, but we can all agree that certain effects are superior to others.

This is showcased in everyday jutsu.

Inputting chakra in your body would easily make it more durable (based on how we treat chakra), yet just using earth chakra nature instead makes it much more durable than that, making them seem virtually invincible.

This is showed in kekkei genkai, how adding chakra would make you stronger of course, but using boil chakra nature instead makes it even stronger than that. Same with lava chakra nature.

Chakra would be able to enhance nerves and combat speed, but lightning chakra nature does it to a much further extent.
Bee could input lightning chakra nature into his pencils, turning them into weapons that vibrate, providing more power than wind style. The nature alone provides an amp that is superior than regular chakra.

Just adding more chakra to a rasengan would make it a bigger stronger rasengan, but adding wind chakra nature gives it a whole new mechanic, specifically stated to make the Rasen the "most powerful", implying the strongest rasengan (that Naruto can dish out).
Supported, as wind chakra nature is seen as the strongest type, unrivaled in battle power.

We see showings of things like this in other verses. And I'm just going down the list of our "UES examples".

(Dragon Ball Z) Goku is canonically shown in Dragon Ball Z to occasionally parry and deflect energy blasts from his opponents, but his kamehameha in the first arc of DBZ has a power level 3 times his own, and it obliterates enemies he combats in his day to day.
(Bleach) Ichigo's regular slash vs a getsuga tensho.
(Yu Yu Hakusho) Yusuke's basic move, the spirit gun, channels the same energy that his body is fueled with, but it's twice as strong.

And these are just the examples that I know.
Yet all of these people use "the same energy as their attacks", and our standards give loopholes which mess up scaling wiki wide.
But using the same type of energy doesn't mean you're using the same amount.

Proposal​

Implement that in order to qualify for a UES, the fighter in question must make it known that they don't just put the same type of energy, but the same amount of energy.

If not this, then something else.

But we need stricter standards than "they use this energy to breathe, and they use this energy to punch, so their breaths and their punches use the same amount of energy.

 

[KingTempest]

Also
PLEASE change the name of the page to "Energy Systems".

Why is it called "UES" then it has 2 other contradicting energy systems

 

[Damage3245]

I agree we need stricter standards on this, and scaling has to be considered more carefully than just "Oh, this verse has a UES? Therefore this character's highest shown AP = their striking strength = their durability by default."

 

[Planck69]

I do agree with your point and I agree that there should be more scrutiny on just what energy based feats scale to physicals in an energy system.

Maybe a rule about scrutinizing specific moves/techniques and their scaling to physicals. A character Goku fights blocking a casual blast and getting visibly hurt by a punch goes without saying but there should be significantly greater scrutiny to any physical scaling to a Kamehameha wave or the like.

Just spitballing tho.

 

[M3X_2.0]

What if the verse doesn’t qualify for UES, but characters can tank energy-based attacks but can also get damaged by regular punches and any other physical attacks? An example would be if someone no-sold a Rasengan from Naruto but Naruto or anyone else damages this character with their hands?

It would instantly give the verse the benefits of UES without having it.

 

[KingTempest]

What if the verse doesn’t qualify for UES, but characters can tank energy-based attacks but can also get damaged by regular punches and any other physical attacks? An example would be if someone no-sold a Rasengan from Naruto but Naruto or anyone else damages this character with their hands?

It would instantly give the verse the benefits of UES without having it.

This would showcase scaling to that individual, but it doesn't automatically necessitate verse wide UES mechanics

Look at avatar for example. People can get hit by rocks from earthbending but get hurt from punches, but it doesn't mean that now every earthbender is as strong as their earthbending.

 

[Planck69]

What if the verse doesn’t qualify for UES, but characters can tank energy-based attacks but can also get damaged by regular punches and any other physical attacks? An example would be if someone no-sold a Rasengan from Naruto but Naruto or anyone else damages this character with their hands?

It would instantly give the verse the benefits of UES without having it.

Do correct me if I am wrong but is this not just basic scaling? It's not automatically verse wide if this happens.

 

[M3X_2.0]

This would showcase scaling to that individual, but it doesn't automatically necessitate verse wide UES mechanics

Sure, but if it keep happening then UES is basically useless for that verse, since it creates a lot of scaling chains. I’m using now an actual example so you don’t think I am bullshitting:

Kurama Enhancd Naruto actually dispersed Sasuke’s Fire Ball Jutsu just by pushing through it. This specific Naruto would scale to the potency of that Fire Ball Jutsu, and then Sasuke eventually catches up.

At this point, it created a scaling chain through the Fire Ball Jutsu and if it scales to more characters, you’re basically giving them all the benefits of UES without the verse having one.

Do correct me if I am wrong but is this not just basic scaling? It's not automatically verse wide if this happens.

Probably, but my example is a verse without UES just having all the benefits anyway. Wouldn’t it be redundant?

1. Verse is not a UES
2. Verse still has characters showing to be stronger than the energy attacks
3. Verse has all the benefits of UES but doesn’t qualify

Isn’t it a bit redundant?

 

[KingTempest]

Sure, but if it keep happening then UES is basically useless for that verse, since it creates a lot of scaling chains. I’m using now an actual example so you don’t think I am bullshitting:

Kurama Enhancd Naruto actually dispersed Sasuke’s Fire Ball Jutsu just by pushing through it. This specific Naruto would scale to the potency of that Fire Ball Jutsu, and then Sasuke eventually catches up.

At this point, it created a scaling chain through the Fire Ball Jutsu and if it scales to more characters, you’re basically giving them all the benefits of UES without the verse having one.

this is just basic scaling like planck says

because when sasuke gets stronger his fire style is still stronger than his own strikes, it just grew proportionally stronger alongside his physicals

like you can still scale above energy attacks, but it's based on feats instead of just arbitrary energy scaling

 

[M3X_2.0]

I see. Personally I think it’s redundant since the verse would be qualifying for UES by feats but not by lore, so it’s kinda the same thing in the end. But since we gotta go with a standard here I think yours is clearly better.

 

[Tuxidoe_Redo]

Got permission

How will this effect characters that relies their AP tier from creation feats via ues?

 

[KingTempest]

Got permission

How will this effect characters that relies their AP tier from creation feats via ues?

A. If they qualify for Non-physical energy systems, then they can scale through there
B. If they don't, then too bad

 

[Armorchompy]

Implement that in order to qualify for a UES, the fighter in question must make it known that they don't just put the same type of energy, but the same amount of energy.

This is agreeable. People get too focused on simply the concept of a shared source and believe that's enough to establish scaling but in truth "energy" isn't something that can be assumed to convert easily. It's a big assumption to make of a power system that it can lend itself equally well to any task, when there is no real life equivalent. The human body can store thousands of kilojoules in nutrients but obviously we can't output anywhere near that much and if you put a guy on a hamster wheel the amount of energy he burns will be way higher than the amount he generates.

 

[KLOL506]

Proposal​

Implement that in order to qualify for a UES, the fighter in question must make it known that they don't just put the same type of energy, but the same amount of energy.

Pretty sure that's part of the requirements as I had personally overseen when I first made the page, but seems like people just gloss over this pointed fact and don't read the page deep enough and thus we have so many faulty UES pages. I guess that's a formatting problem then (IDK WTF people were thinking not mentioning exactly what qualities the Limited Energy System ad Non-Physical Energy Systems entail, that one was out of my hands), but yeah it needs to be fixed.

 

[Dalesean027]

I'll read and comment when im off work


May run a gimmick for the love of the game

 

[Agnaa]

Implement that in order to qualify for a UES, the fighter in question must make it known that they don't just put the same type of energy, but the same amount of energy.

I've lost hope in this topic, because that is already a requirement.

Each of these levels subsumes the last, and we see from the first one:

must have explanations or showings that indicate that the powers which should scale to each other draw from the same source of power (or can convert between the different kinds of power) and use up a similar amount of power to each other. Alternatively, it would also suffice to show that the user can invest similar amounts of power into any given technique, should they want to.

It has been a requirement this entire time that things must use the same amount of energy to scale, and we had long discussions about that when these standards were first introduced.

We also more explicitly say this in the Creation Feats page:

In order to apply to a character's capacity to harm other characters, that is their usual Attack Potency, their Creation has to be connected to their other abilities. Often that is due to a common energy system, in which the same energy used for creation is used for attacks. For example, it can be reasoned that a mage which expends mana from its energy pool to make a city and then channels a similar or greater amount of mana into another attack can scale to its creation feat. However a character who can create objects without other ways of harming their opponents by using an equal amount of energy from their energy pool wouldn't be able to harness that power to hurt another character, and would fall under a light form of Environmental Destruction.

But people just ******* ignore that, including a bunch of staff members, including when this is explicitly pointed out to them. Sometimes by just ignoring the significant exhaustion shown, sometimes by using excuses like "Oh, neither of them cause obvious fatigue from a single usage, so they should both scale to each other" even though there can be large differences in energy usage between things that ultimately don't affect a character's huge amount of stamina from one use. And how these sorts of feats can come from sources such as artifacts which can't display how exhausting something was until they're completely depleted.

Some people have also pointed out in the past how many verses involve levels of proficiency, where characters can be weaker/stronger with certain subsets of those systems, despite having the same amount of fundamental energy, putting this whole underlying idea into doubt. And the weirdness of verses where additional energy causes other effects that don't have to do with destructive output (ailing the target with status effects, making it harder to detect/dispel, etc.). These aren't accounted for in our standards, but there seems to be no will to.

Unless staff members start giving a shit about this, nothing can change. It's an issue of care, more so than an issue of the standards as written, imo.

 

[Omegabronic]

Got permission to comment by KingTempest

I think another thing that should be clarified by the UES page is how it interacts with Haxes, as in, most of the time i see UES it is constantly about "This Hax scales to physicals cuz UES" without further elaboration, as if it is a give

Let me give an example, let's say character "A" has a Existence Erasure technique while the verse he exist in runs on a UES, as EE negates durability, it can erase anything physical, now let's say character "A" erases a whole planet with said technique, does this make the character AP scale to Tier 5 because his EE can erase a whole Planet? Even tho it ignores the durability? And if yes... to what value would it scale to?

Now let's say character "B" of the same verse has Concept Manipulation, and using it, he alters the concept of "Galaxy" to alter physically the entire Galaxy he finds himself in, would that scale character "B" to Tier 3?

Currently, the page says:

Universal Energy System: Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would also scale to all other statistics. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

Implying that, no matter what the Hax does or it's function, if it is run by a UES, then all stats would scale to what that hax has shown to do

More over, the other sections:

Non-physical Energy System: A Non-physical Energy System is one where supernatural or other feats, that are not based on the characters' body strengths, do not scale to physical statistics, but still scale to all other applications of non-physical powers the character may have. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would not automatically be assumed to have Building level Striking Strength or Durability. However, if they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to output similar attack power with those spells.

Which goes further, implying that any supernatural Hax, no matter how different in function, will scale to each other in potency, even tho a system might have completely different in function Haxes such as Plant Manipulation and Information Manipulation (Type 2)

Also in both cases, the description uses examples of Haxes reliant on AP/Durability of the target (Fireballs, Water Jets) and does specify how it would apply to Haxes that completely ignore the Haxes that completely ignore the AP of the user and the Durability of the target (Existence Erasure, Concept Manipulation, etc), making it a bit confusing to know how these interact with said systems or the user in case of an UES

So a discussion on how to handle these more "esoteric" Haxes in how they interact, or not interact, with these systems and their users would be in order, as the majority of the haxes on this wiki, that work regardless of AP/Durability, is completely not accounted for by the current page

 

[KingTempest]

I've lost hope in this topic, because that is already a requirement.

Each of these levels subsumes the last, and we see from the first one:

It has been a requirement this entire time that things must use the same amount of energy to scale, and we had long discussions about that when these standards were first introduced.

We also more explicitly say this in the Creation Feats page:

But people just ******* ignore that, including a bunch of staff members, including when this is explicitly pointed out to them. Sometimes by just ignoring the significant exhaustion shown, sometimes by using excuses like "Oh, neither of them cause obvious fatigue from a single usage, so they should both scale to each other" even though there can be large differences in energy usage between things that ultimately don't affect a character's huge amount of stamina from one use. And how these sorts of feats can come from sources such as artifacts which can't display how exhausting something was until they're completely depleted.

Some people have also pointed out in the past how many verses involve levels of proficiency, where characters can be weaker/stronger with certain subsets of those systems, despite having the same amount of fundamental energy, putting this whole underlying idea into doubt. And the weirdness of verses where additional energy causes other effects that don't have to do with destructive output (ailing the target with status effects, making it harder to detect/dispel, etc.). These aren't accounted for in our standards, but there seems to be no will to.

Unless staff members start giving a shit about this, nothing can change. It's an issue of care, more so than an issue of the standards as written, imo.

Your whole point is summed up to rhis

That is regarding equating the energy of 2 different magical abilities.

Add it for the physical ones too.

 

[Agnaa]

Got permission to comment by KingTempest

I think another thing that should be clarified by the UES page is how it interacts with Haxes, as in, most of the time i see UES it is constantly about "This Hax scales to physicals cuz UES" without further elaboration, as if it is a give

Let me give an example, let's say character "A" has a Existence Erasure technique while the verse he exist in runs on a UES, as EE negates durability, it can erase anything physical, now let's say character "A" erases a whole planet with said technique, does this make the character AP scale to Tier 5 because his EE can erase a whole Planet? Even tho it ignores the durability? And if yes... to what value would it scale to?

Funny you say that, since you made a thread trying to separate EE from AP (which ended up being implemented as EE scaling to AP), but which I got re-opened and argued against due to EE negating durability, which has never concluded due to staff votes being split.

Yes, whether EE scales to AP or not has kinda been an undecided topic for the last three years.

So a discussion on how to handle these more "esoteric" Haxes in how they interact, or not interact, with these systems and their users would be in order, as the majority of the haxes on this wiki, that work regardless of AP/Durability, is completely not accounted for by the current page

Because the standards for that are the same as the standards for which ones can land in the AP section.

If they can be quantified in joules, or if they're above 3-A and can land within the definition of an AP rating, they qualify for AP and can be added to the page and used for scaling to other attacks.

I don't think this is actually a particularly important point for this thread.

Your whole point is summed up to rhis

That is regarding equating the energy of 2 different magical abilities.

Add it for the physical ones too.

Yeah, it could be made more clear. I just don't believe that would actually fix the issue.

When I've brought that substance up, the response hasn't been "Well technically the page only explicitly says that about two different magical abilities", it just does not get applied properly regardless.

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah, it could be made more clear. I just don't believe that would actually fix the issue.

When I've brought that substance up, the response hasn't been "Well technically the page only explicitly says that about two different magical abilities", it just does not get applied properly regardless.

First, that is in the NPES section, which implies it's for "magical abilities", that's what it says "but for all techniques"
Second, it isn't correlating to the UES section because the page is lackluster

The whole point is that we do a shit job explaining.
The whole point of this thread is to RECTIFY THAT

 

[Agnaa]

I think it's pretty clear (from most of the OP and early posts here) that the "whole point" wasn't that our standards were already good, with them just needing a better explanation.

But that's not worth bickering over.

Yeah, improving wording is a fine thing to do.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Changing it to Energy Systems seems fine. The examples listed actually do demonstrate some kind of scaling though; Goku doesn't have Tier 2 Kamehameha and only Tier 3 strikes. And many verses do feature the characters fighting with their strikes and blasts intermittently and both being effective in the same fight, proving some similarity.

 

[Duedate8898]

Ultimately if the adjustment is just making it so the page states that their must be explicit statements of characters using the same amount of energy for attacks and their physicals you're going to run into the thing of having every verse that we currently have under UES wouldn't qualify

For example:
Does a series like Dragonball ever explicitly state that that the same amount of energy is used between different attacks?
How about One Piece with Haki?
Bleach with Reiatsu?

If it's not enough for the characters to show relativity between their attacks utilizing this shared energy or enough for the same source to be shared for different techniques then UES part of the Energy Systems isn't going to really apply to much or anything I believe.

 

[KingTempest]

Or maybe a lot of series shouldn't actually qualify?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Ultimately if the adjustment is just making it so the page states that their must be explicit statements of characters using the same amount of energy for attacks and their physicals you're going to run into the thing of having every verse that we currently have under UES wouldn't qualify

For example:
Does a series like Dragonball ever explicitly state that that the same amount of energy is used between different attacks?
How about One Piece with Haki?
Bleach with Reiatsu?

If it's not enough for the characters to show relativity between their attacks utilizing this shared energy or enough for the same source to be shared for different techniques then UES part of the Energy Systems isn't going to really apply to much or anything I believe.

Perms from KT

I believe [if this thread gets accepted] other verses should re-evaluate and re-justify why they should remain in UES, if found acceptable let em stay, if not the verse should re-adjust AP/Dura tiering accordingly and verses that don’t get looked at / has no supporters can simply be considered outdated by our standards

If we look at individual verses in this thread it’ll take forever and be unproductive but passing the general rule will allow us to fix a lot of things in the long run

 

[Agnaa]

Ultimately if the adjustment is just making it so the page states that their must be explicit statements of characters using the same amount of energy for attacks and their physicals you're going to run into the thing of having every verse that we currently have under UES wouldn't qualify

For example:
Does a series like Dragonball ever explicitly state that that the same amount of energy is used between different attacks?
How about One Piece with Haki?
Bleach with Reiatsu?

If it's not enough for the characters to show relativity between their attacks utilizing this shared energy or enough for the same source to be shared for different techniques then UES part of the Energy Systems isn't going to really apply to much or anything I believe.

I think there's a very narrow range of "But this would do X to Y verse!" which we should consider legitimate:

1. If proposed standards don't take into account an edge case, which that series is merely being used as an example of. Showing that a hypothetical concern would actually come up.
2. If proposed standards aren't so much based on reason/logic/reality, and are more based on perceived trends in fiction. Examples would be able to shift the balance on what the actual trend in fiction is.
3. We're talking about a category which needs a certain number of fictional examples in order to merit inclusion.

It seems like you're kinda pointing towards #3, but I think that should mainly be applied for abilities and ratings. Standards need to be a thing we write into pages. If we deem that only 10 verses pass it, while some people on other websites argue that 10,000 verses pass it, that would still be an incredibly important standards page to have.

Or, as Tempest more succinctly put it:

Or maybe a lot of series shouldn't actually qualify?

 

[Dalesean027]

Ultimately if the adjustment is just making it so the page states that their must be explicit statements of characters using the same amount of energy for attacks and their physicals you're going to run into the thing of having every verse that we currently have under UES wouldn't qualify

They simply wouldn't qualify in that case, that's kinda the whole point of the "universal" part of the energy system if it did qualify. Also 100% agree with the OP here in this case, too many verses slip through the cracks with lackluster justifications.

Snip

I also had a post like this in the kagurabachi general explaining in detail as well why the energy system isn't a UES just because they use spirit energy for physical reinforcement and for performing sorcery as well (that post is here) Its very important people are more critical with this kind of thing than not

 

[KingTempest]

Sorry for speaking without perms but I believe [if this thread gets accepted] other verses should re-evaluate and re-justify why they should remain in UES, if found acceptable let em stay, if not the verse should re-adjust AP/Dura tiering accordingly and verses that don’t get looked at / has no supporters can simply be considered outdated by our standards

If we look at individual verses in this thread it’ll take forever and be unproductive but passing the general rule will allow us to fix a lot of things in the long run

Undeleted because I provided permission

 

[FinePoint]

I think that requiring explicit confirmation of the 'same level' of energy is asking for too much of fiction and will rarely ever happen even if it was the intention.

I do think though that some sense of similar scale and consistent context should definitely be taken into account before approving a UES, and the page should definitely reflect that.

 

[Duedate8898]

Or maybe a lot of series shouldn't actually qualify?

My point is that if the standards we want or have intended this entire time is for this 1 to 1 statement to be a requirement, and we don't have anything which meets this requirement then the page and classification are pointless. Especially as we're the ones who are setting this standard. It's not like we took a concept well established and just gave it a place on the wiki. We made this to help classify things on this site and to assist with scaling purposes, or at least I assume we did.

If it doesn't do either of those things or was never meant to do either of those things then it sounds like we'd be better off not having it on the site.

 

[Dalesean027]

I think that requiring explicit confirmation of the 'same level' of energy is asking for too much of fiction and will rarely ever happen even if it was the intention.

that's always been the requirement though but its been worded in a way where people have been able to snake their way around it by just using the same energy source for different applications and uses, its enforcing a standard that already exist so I wouldn't say its too much personally

 

[KingTempest]

My point is that if the standards we want or have intended this entire time is for this 1 to 1 statement to be a requirement, and we don't have anything which meets this requirement then the page and classification are pointless. Especially as we're the ones who are setting this standard. It's not like we took a concept well established and just gave it a place on the wiki. We made this to help classify things on this site and to assist with scaling purposes, or at least I assume we did.

If it doesn't do either of those things or was never meant to do either of those things then it sounds like we'd be better off not having it on the site.

this is why at the end of my OP i noted that "if it doesn't work, we can find alternatives", but at the end of the day it needs to be showcased.

cause look

For example:
Does a series like Dragonball ever explicitly state that that the same amount of energy is used between different attacks?
How about One Piece with Haki?
Bleach with Reiatsu?

Like funny enough
Dragonball quite blatantly doesn't qualify. Every single move they have that's not just a regular ki blast canonically scales above their regular potency. they might backscale at times through just powerscaling feats but other than that they quite literally do not qualify for UES.
Haki feats are literally just the biproduct of said energy. the basic usage of haki is to amp their physicals. it's literally a UES because its only purpose is physical.
Bleach with reiatsu might not even count depending on the character. there's a chunk of people who have Kido stronger than their regular strikes, a lot who use their energy that produces superior effects than strikes

so standards are required regardless. mine might not be the one shoe fits all option, but the problem is that a lot of these verses don't qualify and we're lying to ourselves for the sake of "easy yet wrong powerscaling"

 

[FinePoint]

that's always been the requirement though but its been worded in a way where people have been able to snake their way around it by just using the same energy source for different applications and uses, its enforcing a standard that already exist so I wouldn't say its too much personally

Well I'd argue it's a useless standard then.

By being too hyper-specific in our requirements we only guarantee that no sensible fiction other than powerscaling slop will ever adhere to our standards. We ought to index actual trends as commonly presented if we can.

 

[Planck69]

I think that requiring explicit confirmation of the 'same level' of energy is asking for too much of fiction and will rarely ever happen even if it was the intention.

I do think though that some sense of similar scale and consistent context should definitely be taken into account before approving a UES, and the page should definitely reflect that.

Aye. I think that at the very least, contextual evidence should be fine for this, pending thorough evaluation by staff. Either that or just note more clearly that attacks with far greater power put into them and the like should need another round of evaluation to scale to physical statistics.

 

[Dalesean027]

Well I'd argue it's a useless standard then.

By being too hyper-specific in our requirements we only guarantee that no sensible fiction other than powerscaling slop will ever adhere to our standards. We ought to index actual trends as commonly presented if we can.

just because its not the most accessible thing doesn't make it bad? Most verses don't qualify for it and that's okay? Its an exclusive thing for a reason and most fiction isn't treated in a way where it qualifies to be listed as a UES and that is okay, I'd hardly call it useless since there are still cases that exist for it but most simply don't and have slipped through the cracks of poor staff evaluation and poor wording of our rules

 

[FinePoint]

just because its not the most accessible thing doesn't make it bad? Most verses don't qualify for it and that's okay? Its an exclusive thing for a reason and most fiction isn't treated in a way where it qualifies to be listed as a UES and that is okay, I'd hardly call it useless since there are still cases that exist for it but most simply don't and have slipped through the cracks of poor staff evaluation and poor wording of our rules

I doubt most fiction which intends someone's energy attacks and physicals to scale to each other explicitly come out and say it like that.

My problem isn't that it'd be rare, my problem is that we'd miss a bunch of genuine examples by being too anal about the exact wording.

 

[Agnaa]

I think that requiring explicit confirmation of the 'same level' of energy is asking for too much of fiction and will rarely ever happen even if it was the intention.

I do think though that some sense of similar scale and consistent context should definitely be taken into account before approving a UES, and the page should definitely reflect that.

As far as I can tell, Duedate brought up explicit statements in opposition to the thread

Ultimately if the adjustment is just making it so the page states that their must be explicit statements of characters using the same amount of energy for attacks and their physicals you're going to run into the thing of having every verse that we currently have under UES wouldn't qualify

Without that being something which was said earlier.

I think my comments were the most hardline ones before that, where I said:

sometimes by using excuses like "Oh, neither of them cause obvious fatigue from a single usage, so they should both scale to each other" even though there can be large differences in energy usage between things that ultimately don't affect a character's huge amount of stamina from one use. And how these sorts of feats can come from sources such as artifacts which can't display how exhausting something was until they're completely depleted.

Some people have also pointed out in the past how many verses involve levels of proficiency, where characters can be weaker/stronger with certain subsets of those systems, despite having the same amount of fundamental energy, putting this whole underlying idea into doubt. And the weirdness of verses where additional energy causes other effects that don't have to do with destructive output (ailing the target with status effects, making it harder to detect/dispel, etc.). These aren't accounted for in our standards, but there seems to be no will to.

Even then I didn't say "it HAS to be an explicit statement", I said:

• Two moves both not causing fatigue is insufficient by itself. The user may have a stamina pool of 100k, where one uses 50, and the other uses 10. Giving them notably different potencies, without requiring noticeably different amounts of energy.
• Many artifacts can't demonstrate how much energy their effects required.
• Even with proper evidence, energy requirements can be a bad way to scale in series where proficiency and additional effects are a factor.

I personally am fine with stuff that doesn't have explicit statements, like a character who effortlessly performed a 7-C feat with magic, and later unleashed a flurry of punches that left them exhausted, all tied together with a UES. I'd also add that many video game verses end up stumbling into providing such "explicit statements".

I hope that this thread doesn't ultimately get derailed because of a strawman (and with people not thinking through their responses to that strawman).

 

[KingTempest]

are there any fiction which intends someone's energy attacks and physicals are actually meant to scale to each other?

because for a lot of them they can just be regular powerscaling, like dude makes small energy ball and he fights dude who deflects it

but is there really a verse with a "you punch as hard as your spells" that's intended?

 

[Planck69]

are there any fiction which intends someone's energy attacks and physicals are actually meant to scale to each other?

because for a lot of them they can just be regular powerscaling, like dude makes small energy ball and he fights dude who deflects it

but is there really a verse with a "you punch as hard as your spells" that's intended?

I'm unsure what you mean here. If it does happen, is that not intent? Like, if someone uses Pink Energy to casually make a planet, then punches you with a fist powered by Pink Energy, is that not intent or just "basic scaling"?

 

[FinePoint]

are there any fiction which intends someone's energy attacks and physicals are actually meant to scale to each other?

because for a lot of them they can just be regular powerscaling, like dude makes small energy ball and he fights dude who deflects it

but is there really a verse with a "you punch as hard as your spells" that's intended?

Yes.

They tend to be verses where their superhuman strength and their energy abilities are both blessings from the exact same source, or are meant to just be different uses of a more vague 'power'.

I see it most in the context of 'magic' being innate in someone and boosting their physicals and abilities all at once.