The whole thing with CM1 is that the notions exist for the universal. Simply governing some category or genera of things is just some hax. Controlling all space in the universe is not CM1, but space being contingent on an abstracta to actualize it’s existence is.
that wouldn’t be a Type 1 concept by the standards. A Type 1 concept isn’t just a concept of things (as in merely governing things). It has to be the concept of thing-ness itself, meaning things must participate in it in order to have their “-ness.” In other words, anything that participates in the concept gets its properties from it. @DontTalkDT , who created the conceptual page, made it clear that concepts need to give things their properties on a universal level to qualify as Type 2 and Type 1 here, here and here. So just being a “universal independent concept of X” isn’t enough. It must be the concept of X-ness.
Forgot that that the concept should also define those thing, but again, my point still stand, unless you want every fiction verse to copypaste our conceptual manipulation type 1 description in cm page to qualify then i must disagree
Correction, it applies to Low 1-A onward
This should only the case for degrees of independence.
CM1 is meant to be hard to get. It’s supposed to be a top-tier hax not just some bum thing everyone and their mothers has. And there are plenty verses that qualify for it even with these strict standards.
It’s that they don’t is the problem. Only the ones that actually properly lay out their universals should have it. But apparently we decided not to follow that because we felt like it or smthn
Well, Finality has already proven itself that it is technically: Independent from Finality itself.
honkai-star-rail.fandom.com
All instances of X (particulars) relate to what-it-is-to-be-X (universal). By definition this cannot be true if time predates finality (which you affirmed), so both Type 2 and 1 are disqualified.
This is just misunderstanding what the loading screen says. It’s not saying “all destruction is a manifestation of the Path of Destruction” but that “the Path of Destruction manifest destruction”.The Loading Screen about Path makes it obvious that when a Path is born, everything pertaining to that Path becomes their manifestation.
If the Path is destroyed but the manifestation still exist? That's practically impossible, Irontomb destroying Erudition equals to him destroying the universe and recreating it since everything in the universe is merely a manifestation of Erudition. This includes the space, time, matter and everything I said earlier.Path
Paths are congregations of imaginary energy, born as manifestations of universal philosophical concepts. Upon ascension, an Aeon gains power over a specific Path, free to choose the allocation of imaginary energy towards that path however THEY wish.[1] A person is considered to be on a Path when...
Yes, let’s make shit up and completely ignore every single contention the opposition has brought so far.
Finality = Time, and Finality is Independent from their own concept. Time predates Finality the same way space, time and matter predates Erudition but the moment they're constrained: They're dependent, proven by Irontomb destroying Erudition = destroying the universe.
This is literally explained in the end of 3.5, please play the game man
Your proof for this is that since Finality governs Time, then they’re the same thing. Come on bro. And it’s like not even independent, the ways it’s explained is literally just time manip resistance because they control time lol.
I’ve already explained MULTIPLE times why the Erudition thing you’re explaining is complete bs and a misunderstanding of what Lygus means.
This is so out of context it baffles me. This is on the same level as saying that “destroying the world” means “blowing up a planet” when it can mean pretty much hundreds of other things.
Look, I don’t actually think you’re illiterate. I just think that you take stuff that is obviously meant to be flowery language or whatever and make it as literal as possible for your scaling agenda.
Read my previous paragraph again.
He’s using the same words and language I am
So true. We have CM type 3, which is meant to be loose and vague, but somehow there are more verses with CM1 than Type 3. It should be the other way around, since CM1 is meant to be strict, unlike nonduality. Fictions definition of concepts aren’t ignored; they would still qualify as Type 3 concepts atleast
That means they don't follow the standards, therefore they're wanked as @Super_Nova as keept saying.
My thoughts regarding Concept Type 1 for Honkai are the same as @Super_Nova ’s. You haven’t proved that they are stated to be the essences of things, or that they are what give things their whatness, or that they are the very definition of things, or anything similar. For example…
Does @DontTalkDT know about this?
He knows that, depending on how concepts are defined, they can qualify for Low 1-A and above, but he never agreed that concepts are anything other than whatness even for lower tiers
Is DontTalks 'strict standards' in our pages? No i don't think so
Mahoraga type beat
Yes it is tho lol. It quite literally says the definition of a universal and what participation is. I wouldn’t care about this if it weren’t in the CM page
i know?
It literally describes the universal-particular relationship. I bolded it for you as well.
yeah and you are purposely twisting that to make it more strict just so this thread gets accepted
No I’m not lmao. What is this accusation. The CM page perfectly describes the following points:
If you understand the explanations in the scan below about how Concept Type 1 governs things, could you please explain it in your own words?
| For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness |
it should be
CM1 is being independent from your own concept, I don't know how you can't understand that Finality is already independent from its own concept and that's enough.Your proof for this is that since Finality governs Time, then they’re the same thing. Come on bro. And it’s like not even independent, the ways it’s explained is literally just time manip resistance because they control time lol.
Also weren’t you claiming that Time was Type 2? (Not that there’s proof for that, btw. I’ve already laid my contentions out)
I’ve already explained MULTIPLE times why the Erudition thing you’re explaining is complete bs and a misunderstanding of what Lygus means.
And that’s not how universals work. At all. You can’t simply “begin participating” in some universal. I have explained all of this stuff dozens of times my man.
This is so out of context it baffles me. This is on the same level as saying that “destroying the world” means “blowing up a planet” when it can mean pretty much hundreds of other things.
Look, I don’t actually think you’re illiterate. I just think that you take stuff that is obviously meant to be flowery language or whatever and make it as literal as possible for your scaling agenda.
I’ve gone paragraphs and paragraphs on why a bunch of these statements are extremely out of context and misinterpreted. And I believe this is the reason why this verse has historically been so over-wanked, because noone is going to bother to sit through all of this text and lore just for some powerscaling.
Read my previous paragraph again.
Irontomb destroys civilizations and intelligent life. I already explained all of this and what it means in this comment here. Which you haven’t addressed, just like you haven’t addressed a single contention of mine. Ever.
He’s using the same words and language I am
and trying to turn it into something stricter and more complicated when it really isn't
Yes, this is technically the definition but I also believe that it’s not the wiki’s intention to be too philosophically intense. I made my descriptions with that in mind, but even then a lot of verses don’t qualify with this leeway.
Lord of the Mysteries is one.
Sometimes small example is what proves the standards on things, like nonduality used to be, it only had a small example, but that example is what proved that what qualifies as duality are logical negations. The same applies to Concept Type 1 and 2, and that example told us how things are participating in them, they participate in them in order to get their properties, which is confirmed by two of the most knowledgeable members, Ultima and DontTalks so any other sence wouldnt be following the established standards.
some things, yes, but not on Tier 0, nonduality, concepts, etc.
You can get Tier 0 without needing to specify that a characters Essence and Existence are identical to each other and whatever else. You just need enough proof that it pretty much entails that.
Alright, so the new standards is just making CM1 exclusive for 1-A and above. Why is it that hard for you to say it that way?
I said this back in 12 October, this is actually mental if you ask me that CM1 must be Low 1-A and above. I thought all those stuff were just the nonsense you're saying, on top of that: The scan you gave me for LOTM isn't the reason why its CM1. It actually lies in the Low 1-A justification where they are Low 1-A in nature as in being able to manipulate all of space, time and so on as concepts and somehow independent from whatever it is.
That shit is over a year old btw. I completely disagree with almost everything I’ve said then. In fact, if you’d bother to check, you’d realize I’ve made multiple threads over the past months to completely fix everything there working the verse from ground up.Alright, so the new standards is just making CM1 exclusive for 1-A and above. Why is it that hard for you to say it that way?
I said this back in 12 October, this is actually mental if you ask me that CM1 must be Low 1-A and above. I thought all those stuff were just the nonsense you're saying, on top of that: The scan you gave me for LOTM isn't the reason why its CM1. It actually lies in the Low 1-A justification where they are Low 1-A in nature as in being able to manipulate all of space, time and so on as concepts and somehow independent from whatever it is.
I also found this comment here:
Upgrading Lord of the Mysteries
I find myself agreeing with Historian, seeing as he's actually providing sources/scans.vsbattles.com
Why is it actually so hard for you, and for everyone else that agrees here that CM1 should just be exclusively limited to Low 1-A and above? You can't also run from this, let's be honest when there are multiple indications of you saying this back in page 2 and so on.
I was curious why all the evidence I gave to you wasn't enough to you apparently, you really can't just make it as simple as this without having too much of like complex word salads huh?
Literally just nuke CM1 from those that's below Low 1-A, and put it as CM2 for whatever reason. Sure, yeah, if the new standards are like that.
Alright, prove another verse that's below Low 1-A and why they qualify for CM1. If you could do that, I'd prove it why Honkai is the same.
This is so funny. No wonder the verse is in the state it is
