Sonoftanavast9
He/Him- 846
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Agree with OP
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Removing CM1 from Aeons (Honkai: Star Rail)
- Thread starter SuperNova55555
- Start date
- Status
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i agree with this CRT
save herta from this w*nk
save herta from this w*nk
Rikimarox2
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Haven't read the entire 3 pages yet besides the OP (and don't know much about Honkai), but are there any feats where if a path/aeon gets affected/deleted, whatever... and it affects all the things they govern? Are there any statements that they shape reality itself, instead of just a "govern" statement?
If any of these have happened, then It does seem like they are actual type 2/1. Really, any of these could instantly prove they are type 2/1, but we'll see. Otherwise, currently, the OP makes sense. I'll check the other pages later on.
If any of these have happened, then It does seem like they are actual type 2/1. Really, any of these could instantly prove they are type 2/1, but we'll see. Otherwise, currently, the OP makes sense. I'll check the other pages later on.
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I feel like you should read the 3 pages first then ask
Rikimarox2
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Will do so later on (though a lot of it seems like filler ngl), but I just wanted to give the main idea and arguments I got from the OP.
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- Thread starter
- #86
I feel that the biggest problem is that notions predate Aeons. The only way to reconcile all these issues is if the opposition proves that when Aeons ascend, they unite with a Type 1 abstracta from which it’s particulars participate in and then obviously what you suggested as well, because if it isn’t true, then it won’t give them CM even if these hypothetical Type 1s are somehow proven to exist.
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@PedjaTarzan i understand your frustration when the verse you supports getting downgraded, but let not use heavy language toward others, you can help defend the verse in a normal way
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Downgrade is least of a problem when i alr have a downgrade locked and loaded when i get home
But this is 2nd time i see an attempted downgrade happen over apparently “outdated” and faulty standards within the website itself, and instead of fixing that which will actually not only fix this verse but other verses they just decide to jump hoyo like its a punching bag.
Literally
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I mean, my point still stand, just keep your cool
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- Thread starter
- #90
It’s not it being outdated that is the main problem. CM1 still says this:
And this is not going anywhere, in fact, there is a current thread aiming to solidify this point even more thoroughly.
It’s just that, at some point in VSBW’s history, the masses began to severely misunderstand what it meant so a bunch of stuff is now fallaciously wanked across the site. The only reason why HSR specifically is getting downgraded is because I just happen play and know a lot about the verse.
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i vaguely remember you saying how cm standards are bad in hsr thread? so yeah that still means that fixing alr bad standards fixes all wanks that every including this verse has
(genuenly no reason to have this while meta meta 67 qualities are still use to hype up high 1-A verses)
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The problem isn't the standard, standard is all but a guideline to follow, the issue is how people evaluate CM
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- Thread starter
- #93
I definitely agree with new standards being better. It’s just that quite a few verses don’t qualify for CM1 with or without them.
What @Vietthai96 said
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That is extremely dishonest when you egged him into doing it when you are completely aware they are outdated. instead of just informing him
You always make random passive-aggressive comments that contribute nothing, then act like you're not piling more into the issue
just stop doing that specific thing
You always make random passive-aggressive comments that contribute nothing, then act like you're not piling more into the issue
just stop doing that specific thing
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completely unrelated stuff you have just mentioned, i literally told him to downgrade it if he doesnt like the CM justification of the verseThat is extremely dishonest when you egged him into doing it when you are completely aware they are outdated. instead of just informing him
You always make random passive-aggressive comments that contribute nothing, then act like you're not piling more into the issue
just stop doing that specific thing
i didnt even know the cm standards of vsbw are bad till he actually posted the downgrade
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Concepts don’t really govern things themselves; they govern the properties of things. For example, as the page explains with the concept of “circle-ness,” it doesn’t govern circular objects directly, but rather the property of circular-ness across all particular instances. So, the interpretation should be that it affects what things are across all instances. It’s not simply that they are destroyed or disappear, but rather that the property itself is lost across all instances.
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It is honestly depends on how fiction verses portrays their concepts system, which could somewhat different from what we think how concept should work, like different authors also have different ideas of how abstract concept is and how it work, thus despite having somewhat similar term, different fictions have different concepts' function, so trying to confront every cases into a single idea of how concept should work is kinda not right in my opinion. Of course i don't mean to be lenient and accept everything
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This is what Type 3 is basically about. Anything that isn’t platonic-esque is just put into there.
Not everything needs to be Type 1. It’s supposed to be rare and high-tier but apparently it’s something just about any verse can get.
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Standards are there for a reason. Also, wouldn’t you agree with @DontTalkDT that verses introducing their own abstract concepts that don’t meet the standards are Type 3? This means they aren’t ignored, and what @Super_Nova said.
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Type 1 is an all-catching type for any concept that is governs everything and independent from everything, it doesn't need to be Plato-esque. Type 2 is also similar, minus the independent part. Type 3 is a junkyard that stores everything that isn't type 1 and 2
Well, i just talking about concept in general and how we accept them, what type a concept is need to be evaluated, yes
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Concept type 1 and 2 are based on these
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- #102
I know what a universal is, but I don’t want people to misinterpret that “universal” is any concept with uni range or whatever. As it seems some people are confused about that as well.
Type 1 is defined by the universal-particular relationship of “participating”. This is in the CM page, and is the reason why what you stated is derived from Type 1.
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Type 1 isn’t all-catching for every Independent Universal concept. The pages make it clear that a Type 1 concept is either what gives something its qualities/properties or it is the whatness itself.
Then i agree with you there.
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Simplified, just Type 2 but independent, Type 2 concept. The difference is that type 1 is somewhat superior to the objects due to objects its governs simply participating within the concept while type 2 the underlying concept have equal relationship with the objects it governs as they are bound to each other
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My last attempt on this thread if the former of what I've said isn't enough already — Finality is not only an abstract concept that's governing Time and is unaffected by it, Finality is also established as Path.
We already established earlier how Time is a type 2 concept in Honkaiverse with the addition of space, matter and so on that are considered as "concepts".
This goes as far as to everything that makes up reality here are the fundamental building blocks of reality, because we have matter to be stated as concept in Erudition earlier — This means, the order, logic, life is also a fundamental building block of reality because it shapes up reality like how Ena's The Order is what creates the laws in Honkai: Star Rail or how Life altogether is just Information (Type 2). The concept of "Nihility" as Path is the opposite of all these, which is an independence since it just lacks them completely (NEP) — Horizon of Existence is a place that is the opposite of reality, stated as the conceptual "end of reality".
Solitary Waves Theory supports that there are various Paths that press against each other which means an Aeon's Path in a certain part of reality press against another and there are various of them.
So, why is it a type 1 concept?
Path is completely independent from the reality that they govern, this is proven with Finality being unaffected by the very concept that they govern or Nihility being the opposite of all the concepts that shapes and makes up reality.
Why is it considered concept manipulation? Through Solitary Waves Theory, it is proven that these Paths press against each other: It means, in a certain part of reality. They must abide and follow this Path (alteration), but since they press against each other — The reality doesn't know what Path to follow, hence the constant gets rewritten.
Unless there's any objections, because I'm sure everyone here has seen this one already:
Don't clutter the thread again, if this gets any staff: I request for one of you to send this reply for them to evaluate and the last one.
Also, this justification here is self-explanatory why it is a type 1 concept, you can read them
vsbattles.fandom.com
We already established earlier how Time is a type 2 concept in Honkaiverse with the addition of space, matter and so on that are considered as "concepts".
This goes as far as to everything that makes up reality here are the fundamental building blocks of reality, because we have matter to be stated as concept in Erudition earlier — This means, the order, logic, life is also a fundamental building block of reality because it shapes up reality like how Ena's The Order is what creates the laws in Honkai: Star Rail or how Life altogether is just Information (Type 2). The concept of "Nihility" as Path is the opposite of all these, which is an independence since it just lacks them completely (NEP) — Horizon of Existence is a place that is the opposite of reality, stated as the conceptual "end of reality".
Solitary Waves Theory supports that there are various Paths that press against each other which means an Aeon's Path in a certain part of reality press against another and there are various of them.
So, why is it a type 1 concept?
Path is completely independent from the reality that they govern, this is proven with Finality being unaffected by the very concept that they govern or Nihility being the opposite of all the concepts that shapes and makes up reality.
Why is it considered concept manipulation? Through Solitary Waves Theory, it is proven that these Paths press against each other: It means, in a certain part of reality. They must abide and follow this Path (alteration), but since they press against each other — The reality doesn't know what Path to follow, hence the constant gets rewritten.
Unless there's any objections, because I'm sure everyone here has seen this one already:
That will be all, what OP is saying for the cosmology blog and all that are just something that the OP itself cannot prove the otherwise.
Don't clutter the thread again, if this gets any staff: I request for one of you to send this reply for them to evaluate and the last one.
Also, this justification here is self-explanatory why it is a type 1 concept, you can read them
Imaginary Energy (Honkai)
Paths are congregations of Imaginary energy, born as manifestations of universal philosophical concepts. Those who believe in and practice the concepts behind a certain path become Pathstriders,[1] and the path that they happen to follow will change in accordance with their own philosophies and...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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I already went over why Finality cannot be Type 1 earlier in our discussion (see page 1; they don’t ground Time, they are predated by it. It’s just Time manipulation) You repeating your points does not change this.
I wonder, because it reallyyy does not seem to me that it’s making an ontological claim about some universals because, firstly, “concept of ‘Time’” can simultaneously be understood to be talking some certain abstracta, but it can also very well be understood in a nominalist sense wherein it’s referring to Time, as a physical constant, functioning differently across various realms. But since I haven’t played HI3, interpretation doesn’t lend me to either—though I’d find it rather strange to grant CM2 over something like this where the nature of what “concept” means here to be so undetermined.
The second part about Lygus is also worse because it’s obviously talking about concepts as ideas in a phenomenological sense, wherein “concept” is just referring to the categories of objects we perceive. Not some universal.
This is a bunch of fluff. I’m not sure what this is adding. Non-being is the anti-thesis of being, that seems pretty obvious. And that last line doesn’t establish what [conceptual] implies at all, so you would already have to prove Type 1 another way for it to grant anything. But if you’re pushing for CM3, then I’m not stopping you.
Ok?
For Finality, check earlier in the thread and also, what does this have to do with HSR? HI3’s Authority of Finality has nothing to do with Terminus, and as for nihility… what? How does that imply anything beyond CM3? “Existence” isn’t even part of Nihility’s particulars, so it being the opposite of something it doesn’t even ground means literally nothing for your case. Like I’m really confused what “Independent Universal Concept” I’m even supposed to be looking at. This is just someone not being beholden to certain concepts. Water does not participate in the Universal of Fire, but this doesn’t imply anything about Water.
(Not that a “universal of nothingness” is even coherent tbh, so “nihility” here probably refers to some indeterminate substrate/void rather than specifically privation itself)
Ah yes. Reality warping reality warps. Who could’ve guessed.
I’m not even sure what the “proof” is meant to be here, it’s not like I ever said Path energy doesn’t flow through the cosmos. Is “path energy” here meant to be the CM1? This would be even more incoherent that just the Aeons being that.
? Aeons have reality warping? Is that it?
My entire argument is based on what the blog itself cannot prove.
Sure.
Edit:
This is the same fluff I called out in the OP. Just a bunch of words that get nowhere and are functionally unintelligible
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Sorry but this doesn't have any basis to it, I can't reply to this without all this being an argument that denies any evidence given with the most complex word salad possible that's not supposed to even be comprehended by everyone. I think it's very clear that you're just complicating the standards here, it's funny saying the CM1 page as unintelligible. You'd be shocked if you read other fictions that actually has their Lovecraftian theme in it, all the scans are self-explanatory for why it is an independence if you can't comprehend the justification which is how I'd learn about it actually. I am not replying to an argument that gives out zero scans and doesn't even try to debunk the entire thing without you explaining it with the most complex language possible that no one understands about.
If you don't understand the justification, try to read the scans and comprehend it. If you think it's not like this or it's not like that, please give actual scans that disprove it. You're not even trying to explain properly why it's not CM1 or if it doesn't fit the standard. What you're doing is just DENYING all of the evidence possible.
I think it's fairly clear that my definition on how CM works altogether fits with what the staff (Thread Moderator) here is saying and that's all there is. I don't even think you're knowledgeable on this topic, to say the least.
It's insane to me honestly that you're still not giving out the antifeats from the in-game themselves or any scans related because I am sure you don't understand that what Irontomb is doing is just destroying the concept, that's not an antifeat lol.
Please reply with an actual basis, preferably with scans or actual anti-feats to it other than complicating the standards. No one is going to understand what you're saying if you go that way. The moment I came in this thread, I always kept to make the standards as simple as it is and why it fits the standards according to my knowledge and that's supported by a Thread Moderator commenting here. So, next time, understand what the Thread Moderator is saying first and then you can make an actual debunk with atleast scans to it. I'm sure there's a rule that it's not allowed for you to make a CRT or debate without scans being given beforehand.
I don't know if the word salad you're saying is just the new standards, but as far as I know there's no standards pertaining to that plus the Thread Moderator already explained it very well about how CM works altogether. Thank you.
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“You’re stupid. You don’t understand the standards.”
Also you:
Brother. I’m using the same language the CM page uses and that the notion it is based on uses.
If you can’t understand the standards, then why are you even in this thread, lol? Also the mod literally agreed with mine and @Grabbing_dragon ’s definition so I’m confused what you mean there.
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I’d assume it’d have EE. But how is this relevant?
Sonoftanavast9
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Depending on what's it's worked on what you've described could still just be type 3 CM which OP seems to be okay with
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the closest thing i remember is IX erasing you to the point path of remembrance cannot find a single trace of you
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I share same thoughts as Viethai.
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I think a good place to look for / against the argument for CM1 in HSR is seen through path-splitting.
This is the evidence that Tayzzyronth ascended and affected 'Long's path.
When Tayzzyronth ascended as the Aeon of Propagation the previous Path of Permanence governed by the dead 'Long' split to make way for it.
So while the concept of Propagation previously existed it wasn't as important, therefore was incorporated into a different path. Paths in this way are many concepts joined together.
This is evidence that everything in the HSR universe participates in a concept, it's just that the weight of that concept within the universe determines the strength of the Path and whether it has its own individual Path.
We know through the databank that not everyone is a Pathstrider - This does not mean that these people don't take part in concepts like 'Destruction' - It just means their will doesn't follow the path closely enough to be a pathstrider.
Back to Tayzzyronth:
Tayzzyronth ascending did not create the Path of Propagation as it was previously incorporated into Permanence, but the aeonic ascension made it distinct from the path of Permanence. Paths predate their Aeons in this way.
Furthermore the alteration of the Path of Permanence (via path-splitting) affected everyone who previously followed what is now the Path of Propagation - If they expressed Permanence via Propagation beforehand, they will now be drawing upon the Propagation path's power. The actual act of Propagation doesn't change, yet those who did it were effected via where they draw their path power from being changed.
This meets the CM1 standards for:
- everything in it "participates" in these concepts.
- the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.
(The alteration of the Path of Propagation changed where every Pathstrider of what was Permanence is drawing their power from. This may seem shaky, but considering the initial underlying concepts of Propagation haven't changed... the only effects we can observe are its effects on where Pathstriders draw their power from. A Pathstrider changing their path obviously wouldn't effect the previous Path.)
While evidence here may seem lacking because we have no basis on whether changes in concepts would effect reality, Lygus has statements regarding this. See the third image. (Yes I am reusing Voidnether's scan because I do not have Imgur and this evidence has been referenced previously in this very thread.)
All that's left now are:
- Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in.
Further continuing on the topic of Irontomb and Lygus we can prove the second half of the above. Irontomb's equations are effecting the path of Erudition which encompasses things like Knowledge and Technology and thereby is changing reality itself. See Astral Express Data Bank - Factions, Lord Ravagers, Irontomb. (Yes I'm linking the wiki, it's the exact same text. See the 'Description' subtitle).
Irontomb's equations only change what is governed by Erudition because Irontomb's equations are effecting the Erudition path itself. This is evident in the two fan-translated videos linked here and here. These seem to be independent sources and people who know Chinese can verify if the translations are accurate or not. I've used two independent sources to try and ensure reliability, the relevant quotes from both videos are listed below.
What we are interested in are the translations: 'Its (Irontombs) outbreak will destroy the universal / cosmic constants anchored by Erudition.', 'It will turn the established logical laws of the galaxy into chaos / Transforming the galaxy's established logical laws into utter chaos' and finally 'By solving its (Irontombs) equations we can neutralise the spilled virus below a certain threshold / Through calculations on its (Irontombs) equations, below a certain magnitude we are confident we can perform harmless translation on the overflowing virus.'
This consolidates that Irontomb is producing equations that are directly attacking the Erudition's concept and thereby changing the logic of the universe. The effects are witnessed in the Express Data Bank. This is even while Irontomb isn't fully manifested yet. We can definitely say that Erudition's concept shapes reality and it being changed or edited effects reality itself, so the second qualification is met definitely.
This does bring into question the 'while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept' line Irontomb is a scepter that was previously a part of Nous' divine corpus, who is the Aeon of Erudition. If anyone can do this it is Irontomb. A bigger question is: 'Why does solving Irontomb's equations neutralise the damage?' - Truthfully we do not know. My personal theory is that the Destruction concept (Irontomb's equations) latching onto the Erudition's concepts (and thereby effecting the universe) is defeated or dissolved through solving the equation - The Destruction's effects are nullified through the equation being solved therefore the path energy dissolving - This'd also explain why this only works when the virus is 'below a certain threshold' - too much Destruction path energy cannot vanish easily. This would answer the question with logic consistent with the HSR universe.
The truth is we simply don't know at the moment. There's not enough information without speculation. This leaves the 'while the opposite wouldn't effect the concept' idea to be plausible, but not proven.
Finally, the first half of the statement. The final mention of 'except maybe of other concepts of this nature' would mean that if the above theory were to become HSR canon the second half of the statement would be true. This is because the concept of 'Destruction' would be effecting the part of reality 'Erudition' governs. If you were to believe this idea, the first half of the statement is proven because actions in the universe cannot effect the Paths and various concepts of HSR unless effected by another Path or concept, meeting the qualifications for CM1 overall.
---
Footnote: I believe this to be pretty shaky in some places, it was a nightmare to write out lmao.
In my eyes, CM1 is plausible given how the first 2 statements are concretely met and there's an argument for the final statement working. I've done my best to give it a fair shot on both sides. The evidence isn't concrete as we simply don't have enough information on how Irontomb's equations actually work and how solving them nullifies their power, speculation is required and the argument can't really be proven or disproven at this point. There might be evidence elsewhere I do not know of for CM1, proving the final statement.
This was a whole lot of yap on so little quotes and statements ICL. Lol.
This is the evidence that Tayzzyronth ascended and affected 'Long's path.
When Tayzzyronth ascended as the Aeon of Propagation the previous Path of Permanence governed by the dead 'Long' split to make way for it.
So while the concept of Propagation previously existed it wasn't as important, therefore was incorporated into a different path. Paths in this way are many concepts joined together.
This is evidence that everything in the HSR universe participates in a concept, it's just that the weight of that concept within the universe determines the strength of the Path and whether it has its own individual Path.
We know through the databank that not everyone is a Pathstrider - This does not mean that these people don't take part in concepts like 'Destruction' - It just means their will doesn't follow the path closely enough to be a pathstrider.
Back to Tayzzyronth:
Tayzzyronth ascending did not create the Path of Propagation as it was previously incorporated into Permanence, but the aeonic ascension made it distinct from the path of Permanence. Paths predate their Aeons in this way.
Furthermore the alteration of the Path of Permanence (via path-splitting) affected everyone who previously followed what is now the Path of Propagation - If they expressed Permanence via Propagation beforehand, they will now be drawing upon the Propagation path's power. The actual act of Propagation doesn't change, yet those who did it were effected via where they draw their path power from being changed.
This meets the CM1 standards for:
- everything in it "participates" in these concepts.
- the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.
(The alteration of the Path of Propagation changed where every Pathstrider of what was Permanence is drawing their power from. This may seem shaky, but considering the initial underlying concepts of Propagation haven't changed... the only effects we can observe are its effects on where Pathstriders draw their power from. A Pathstrider changing their path obviously wouldn't effect the previous Path.)
While evidence here may seem lacking because we have no basis on whether changes in concepts would effect reality, Lygus has statements regarding this. See the third image. (Yes I am reusing Voidnether's scan because I do not have Imgur and this evidence has been referenced previously in this very thread.)
All that's left now are:
- Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in.
Further continuing on the topic of Irontomb and Lygus we can prove the second half of the above. Irontomb's equations are effecting the path of Erudition which encompasses things like Knowledge and Technology and thereby is changing reality itself. See Astral Express Data Bank - Factions, Lord Ravagers, Irontomb. (Yes I'm linking the wiki, it's the exact same text. See the 'Description' subtitle).
Irontomb's equations only change what is governed by Erudition because Irontomb's equations are effecting the Erudition path itself. This is evident in the two fan-translated videos linked here and here. These seem to be independent sources and people who know Chinese can verify if the translations are accurate or not. I've used two independent sources to try and ensure reliability, the relevant quotes from both videos are listed below.
What we are interested in are the translations: 'Its (Irontombs) outbreak will destroy the universal / cosmic constants anchored by Erudition.', 'It will turn the established logical laws of the galaxy into chaos / Transforming the galaxy's established logical laws into utter chaos' and finally 'By solving its (Irontombs) equations we can neutralise the spilled virus below a certain threshold / Through calculations on its (Irontombs) equations, below a certain magnitude we are confident we can perform harmless translation on the overflowing virus.'
This consolidates that Irontomb is producing equations that are directly attacking the Erudition's concept and thereby changing the logic of the universe. The effects are witnessed in the Express Data Bank. This is even while Irontomb isn't fully manifested yet. We can definitely say that Erudition's concept shapes reality and it being changed or edited effects reality itself, so the second qualification is met definitely.
This does bring into question the 'while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept' line Irontomb is a scepter that was previously a part of Nous' divine corpus, who is the Aeon of Erudition. If anyone can do this it is Irontomb. A bigger question is: 'Why does solving Irontomb's equations neutralise the damage?' - Truthfully we do not know. My personal theory is that the Destruction concept (Irontomb's equations) latching onto the Erudition's concepts (and thereby effecting the universe) is defeated or dissolved through solving the equation - The Destruction's effects are nullified through the equation being solved therefore the path energy dissolving - This'd also explain why this only works when the virus is 'below a certain threshold' - too much Destruction path energy cannot vanish easily. This would answer the question with logic consistent with the HSR universe.
The truth is we simply don't know at the moment. There's not enough information without speculation. This leaves the 'while the opposite wouldn't effect the concept' idea to be plausible, but not proven.
Finally, the first half of the statement. The final mention of 'except maybe of other concepts of this nature' would mean that if the above theory were to become HSR canon the second half of the statement would be true. This is because the concept of 'Destruction' would be effecting the part of reality 'Erudition' governs. If you were to believe this idea, the first half of the statement is proven because actions in the universe cannot effect the Paths and various concepts of HSR unless effected by another Path or concept, meeting the qualifications for CM1 overall.
---
Footnote: I believe this to be pretty shaky in some places, it was a nightmare to write out lmao.
In my eyes, CM1 is plausible given how the first 2 statements are concretely met and there's an argument for the final statement working. I've done my best to give it a fair shot on both sides. The evidence isn't concrete as we simply don't have enough information on how Irontomb's equations actually work and how solving them nullifies their power, speculation is required and the argument can't really be proven or disproven at this point. There might be evidence elsewhere I do not know of for CM1, proving the final statement.
This was a whole lot of yap on so little quotes and statements ICL. Lol.
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I see. But he didn’t bring a concrete stance so I would like to know whether or not you agree with the downgrade or not since I’d prefer 100% certainty.
Edit: I’ll respond to @PlungingThroughTime soon since I didn’t see their message previously for some reason lol
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Pretty sure this is a concrete disagreement on how you approach concept, which is where your CRT hinges on. like forcing immutability and what not and platonic concepts etc when he also stated
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He’s agreeing here in his latest comment (unless I’m illiterate). And this thread agrees with me, as well. Not to mention the CM page. And I already said I use “platonic” as a stand-in for universal.
And as I said my previous comment, I’ll respond to @PlungingThroughTime but I have some uni classes rn so it’s gonna take a little.
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I will evaluate this properly tomorrow, weekend, in case no other staff do this, so until that, don't take any previous comment from me as agreement or disagreement
I agree with that doesn't mean i disagree at other stuff. If the abstract, concept govern things under the area of its influence and is independent from them, it is still CM1
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you should tag other staff here too
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This is arguably the only worthwhile contention I’ve seen so far in this thread, in that it attempts to posit omni-temporality for Paths.
This specific part relating to path-splitting refers to the concept of narrow and broad Paths wherein certain Paths represents, well, “broader” concepts. This is, as we know, why Ena was absorbed by Xipe as Harmony subsumed the Order.
Just the opposite happened for Tazzyronth where it split the Path and took a narrower concept from the Permanence.
There are, well, still a couple of problems with this:
- Multiple Paths inhibit multiple concepts. That is, both Order and Harmony represented the same concepts. (I’ll use the wiki rn but anyone can go and check the game and it’ll tell you the same thing because they are just copy-pastes of it). So which Path is the universal here? That’s a problem since it can’t be both, but it sure as hell isn’t a problem if all an Aeon and a Path do is merely represent the concepts, which is what I’ve been vying for the entire thread and what the scans themselves tell you.
- Paths are created by Aeons when they ascend by subsuming Imaginary Energy. They specifically do not exist until then. The only other way, as we’ve seen is to utilize Paths that have been previously created. But for beings like Aha, they ascended through themselves and created the Path.
And I’m not sure if you’re saying that following a Path is equivalent to “participating” in it, but if you are, I’ll just tell you right now that it absolutely is not. That’s not even what participation would be. They’re just taking energy from a different source. (Participating in the Universal of Fire for instance isn’t something as stupid as using some energy to create fireballs. I reallyyyy don’t think I need to explain this.) And to be honest, can I know where it says that Permanence pathstriders changed Paths? Not that it’s validity or falsity changes anything to my contention, but I am interested.
I already explained this to Voidnether. Lygus is merely talking about concepts as an indicator of categories that are subject to phenomenal experience. That’s what a “book read by noone” means. Matter and space exists, but there’ll be noone to perceive them. It doesn’t make any claim about the ontology of concepts.
God, this is a lot of fluff. Though, I believe I can give a concise and short response to it.
Frankly, I already had edited the OP to say that Irontomb isn’t much of a problem, but I think this brought to my attention an even bigger anti-feat:
Why is Irontomb destroying the Erudition by attacking things that supposedly participate in it? What?
You know that what he’s doing here is attacking civilizations and intelligent life—things that should be participating in Erudition—to destroy Erudition, right?
This is what Lygus means here in the third scan. He’s literally saying that Erudition is a phenomena contingent on intelligent Consciousness and civilizations. THIS is why Irontomb destroys the supposed “particulars” of Erudition to destroy Erudition. Because it is not even a universal to begin with. It even sounds a bit nominal to say the least, but I’ll give it the benefit of the doubt and say CM3.
It’s just funny to me cuz I didn’t even make the connection till now by ey, thanks.
Also, I’m not even sure how that last part sounds even remotely like CM1. Why would universals even be equations you can solve that actively interact with reality and can “dissipate” lol. Also, let’s say that, hypothetically, we accept these absurd notions of CM1. Does this mean every Pathstrider has CM1? Even further than that, if Path energy is something everything participates in, does this give HSR atoms CM1 as well? Lol.
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