Why the Source ≠ Overvoid

[Elizio33]

This topic has been covered in previous threads, so I thought it would be helpful to discuss it clearly. The Source and the Overvoid are often thought to be the same thing, but they are actually different. This thread aims to clarify this distinction.

The Source, long thought to be entirely identical to the Overvoid, was first described as a product of a self-referential void in The New Gods #1 (2025). This void, often mistaken for the Great Darkness, is self-referential by definition, it refers to itself.

"The Great Darkness could only define to itself through the presence of another. For total darkness can only be defined as an absence of light."

By contrast, the Great Darkness cannot define or become aware of itself without the presence of another; its awareness depends on the Source. This means, strictly speaking, the Great Darkness is not self-referential, whereas the void that produced the Source is. The Overvoid, on the other hand, perfectly exemplifies self-referentiality. It is described as a non-dual omni-awareness and a transparent and eternal void. Its non-duality means that there is no "other" outside of it, so all consciousness is directed toward itself. Its transparency and eternity emphasize its fullness and independence. Together, these characteristics strongly support the idea that the Overvoid functions as a self-referential void.

In an interview, Grant Morrison identified the Overvoid and the Source as God, but the same writer also associated the Source with the Ain Soph Aurr, the “Infinite Light” of Kabbalah, the radiant emanation of the unknowable divine source. This interpretation aligns with more recent portrayals of the Source, particularly in The Flash and The New Gods, which describe it as the Light, while earlier materials depicted it as a manifestation of the Creator’s power. The Light is also a creation of God.

Another point I’d like to address is the famous scan from Justice League Incarnate #4, which is often cited as “confirmation” that the Overvoid is the Light. This topic has already been discussed in previous threads, and I maintain the same position. The story begins with a recap of the origins of creation, narrated by Doctor Multiverse, and uses lines and art styles that closely mirror those of Multiversity.

"This caused an imperceptible flaw in what was once the immaculate perfection of the Light."

The issue with that recap is that it identifies the Great Darkness as the instigator of crises, which isn’t the case. The Great Darkness merely observes, unconcerned with the Multiverse, as noted in Dark Crisis: The Deadly Green #1 and Dark Crisis on Infinite Earths #7. Now, you might ask, “Does being wrong about the Great Darkness disprove that the Overvoid is the Light?” Not necessarily. In her recap, Doctor Multiverse states that the Great Darkness has constantly tried to destroy the Multiverse through various aspects or avatars, while the Light created counterforces to protect it. However, if her claim about the Great Darkness is inaccurate, it calls into question the overall reliability of Doctor Multiverse’s statements and cannot be used as evidence to equate the Overvoid with the Light/Source.

Conclusion: The Source is not the Overvoid, but rather a product of it.

Agrees: @Antvasima, @Setsuna_tenma, @Re5yh, @ProfectusInfinity, @Xearesay, @Vasco, @Firestorm808

Disagree: @Weaver261

Neutral:

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Agree.

 

[KLOL506]

This should preferably be a staff thread. I think.

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Mr. Bambu @Agnaa @Planck69 @Elizhaa @LephyrTheRevanchist @DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Dereck03 @Maverick_Zero_X @Just_a_Random_Butler @Everything12 @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @Celestial_Pegasus @GrathOfLux

@Theglassman12 @Reiner04 @ActuallySpaceMan42 @KingTempest @Catzlaflame @UchihaSlayer96 @Emirp sumitpo @Nierre @Dalesean027 @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Vietthai96 @Imaginym @Godernet @Armorchompy @Mr._Propeller_Hat @JustSomeWeirdo

 

[Weaver261]

By contrast, the Great Darkness cannot define or become aware of itself without the presence of another; its awareness depends on the Source. This means, strictly speaking, the Great Darkness is not self-referential, whereas the void that produced the Source is. The Overvoid, on the other hand, perfectly exemplifies self-referentiality. It is described as a non-dual omni-awareness and a transparent and eternal void. Its non-duality means that there is no "other" outside of it, so all consciousness is directed toward itself. Its transparency and eternity emphasize its fullness and independence. Together, these characteristics strongly support the idea that the Overvoid functions as a self-referential void.

I have some problems with this.
Both Multiversity and JLI #4 stated that Immaculate perfection is Light and Overvoid. Light = Overvoid. Source and Light are also the same. That makes Light = Overvoid = Source. Grant Morrison said Overvoid is like a comic blank page. In his sketch of Multiverse Map, he wrote the source is the white page. So, I disagree with Source != Overvoid conclusion.

The entire premise of this CRT arised from the scan of Himon Prometheus codex where he theorized about the source being the product of a self referential void which is not confirmed btw. It's just being theorized. It can be wrong like Doctor Multiverse saying TGD manipulated everything. So, I find the root of the CRT flimsy to make a big change.

Even if that turned out to be true, it's still impossible for the source to be the product of overvoid. In this theory Himon, the narrator, liken the source as the information and ideas instead of the source energy of all things. Why the source is the information, the very first knowledge? Because it's the knowledge of the otherness by two different existences existing together which are the light/overvoid and the great darkness. Without TGD and overvoid alone, it wouldn't be the very first knowledge. The narrator emphasized on TGD only being able define itself as the absence of light make the source the very first information. If Overvoid is self referential by itself, there would be no need to mention or even emphasize on TGD that much.

 

[Firestorm808]

Justice League Incarnate #4

As far as what's been written by Snyder and James Tynion IV, the Source and the Overvoid were treated as separate.

I don't know how much Joshua Williamson and Dennis Culver have contributed to the top end of the cosmology, but I'd like to wait and see more consistency in this alleged depiction before we start applying it to any cosmology pages.

 

[Hayato5652]

Following

 

[Antvasima]

I think that this seems to make sense.

 

[Robo432343]

im very confused
last time a thread exactly the same as this was made which was fairly recently, you disagreed

 

[Firestorm808]

im very confused
last time a thread exactly the same as this was made which was fairly recently, you disagreed

You are confused that someone can change their stance after 9 months?

 

[Robo432343]

You are confused that someone can change their stance after 9 months?

Most of what is known about The Overvoid is outdated and it is now equated with The Light, just like The Source which is the product of a self-referential void which is The Great Darkness as VeryGoofyToddler2 pointed out.

The Presence has always been referred to as God or the Creator, and the "self-referential void" stuffs further prove that The Source/Light is an aspect of that God (or at least a self-manifestation when it first opened its mouth to describe all things into existence)

 

[Re5yh]

Agree

 

[Vasco]

Opinions can change depending on who makes the thread, agree with OP.

 

[Imaginym]

Reading the opening post, it seems reasonable, so I'll tentatively agree, although my position regarding this should be taken with a grain of salt, given that I do not think I am familiar enough with DC Comics even if I do take an interest in other entries into DC's series.

 

[Elizio33]

im very confused
last time a thread exactly the same as this was made which was fairly recently, you disagreed

My opinion has changed since then.

 

[Hayato5652]

Honestly, I’ve always considered the Source and the Overvoid as two separate concepts. After reading Justice League Incarnate, that belief became even stronger. Was there any specific CRT where the Source and the Overvoid were treated as the same thing? Or is it just that in some comics, their behavior seems identical?

 

[Elizio33]

Honestly, I’ve always considered the Source and the Overvoid as two separate concepts. After reading Justice League Incarnate, that belief became even stronger. Was there any specific CRT where the Source and the Overvoid were treated as the same thing? Or is it just that in some comics, their behavior seems identical?

In an interview, Grant Morrison identified the Overvoid and the Source as God, but the same writer also associated the Source with the Ain Soph Aurr, the “Infinite Light” of Kabbalah, the radiant emanation of the unknowable divine source. This interpretation aligns with more recent portrayals of the Source, particularly in The Flash and The New Gods, which describe it as the Light, while earlier materials depicted it as a manifestation of the Creator’s power. The Light is also a creation of God. Likewise, the Map of the Multiverse places the Overvoid and the Source in the same position, but this alone does not necessarily prove that they are identical, only that they are located similarly. Altogether, this suggests that the Overvoid and the Source are aspects of God, but not the same being.

 

[Hayato5652]

In an interview, Grant Morrison identified the Overvoid and the Source as God, but the same writer also associated the Source with the Ain Soph Aurr, the “Infinite Light” of Kabbalah, the radiant emanation of the unknowable divine source. This interpretation aligns with more recent portrayals of the Source, particularly in The Flash and The New Gods, which describe it as the Light, while earlier materials depicted it as a manifestation of the Creator’s power. The Light is also a creation of God. Likewise, the Map of the Multiverse places the Overvoid and the Source in the same position, but this alone does not necessarily prove that they are identical, only that they are located similarly. Altogether, this suggests that the Overvoid and the Source are aspects of God, but not the same being.

Oh... now I can understand why creating this CRT is necessary and important

 

[Hypertornado099]

The Overvoid, on the other hand, perfectly exemplifies self-referentiality. It is described as a non-dual omni-awareness

The guy in the scan is referring to the Source here. It mentions something about being separated by the Source Wall, so its pretty obvious

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

The arguments in the OP make a lot of sense, agreed.

 

[Elizio33]

Okay, for now, who agrees and who disagrees?

 

[Elizio33]

The guy in the scan is referring to the Source here. It mentions something about being separated by the Source Wall, so its pretty obvious

I understand your point, but the Source is usually portrayed as an emanation or manifestation of God, or in The New Gods, as a “product of a self-referential void,” while the Overvoid represents God’s pure consciousness. Therefore, the description of “non-dual omni-awareness” seems to fit the Overvoid more than the Source itself.

 

[Elizio33]

As far as what's been written by Snyder and James Tynion IV, the Source and the Overvoid were treated as separate.

I don't know how much Joshua Williamson and Dennis Culver have contributed to the top end of the cosmology, but I'd like to wait and see more consistency in this alleged depiction before we start applying it to any cosmology pages.

No problem, I'll consider your position as neutral for now then.

 

[Weaver261]

I don't know if my opinion will be counted but for the record, I still disagree with this CRT FRA

 

[Elizio33]

I don't know if my opinion will be counted but for the record, I still disagree with this CRT FRA

Your opinion will be counted, yes.

 

[Elizio33]

Just to clarify, the Source is often described as an aspect of God or as a manifestation of the Creator’s power. It represents the Light, which itself has been said to be a creation of God. In The New Gods, Himon theorizes that the Source might arise from a self-referential void. Since, within DC’s cosmology, God is sometimes identified with the Void, or the Void is considered a part of God, Himon’s theory is not necessarily contradictory.

 

[Elizio33]

This is very interesting.

Grant Morrison describes the Overvoid as the “comic page” on which the DC Universe is drawn, or, in-universe, as the absolute ground of reality, embedded in a higher-dimensional context (the real world). In this view, all notions of the Source or the Presence are condensed, contextualized expressions of this absolute.

From the Overvoid spontaneously emerges the Great Darkness, its first differentiation, the initial “flaw” or, metaphorically, the first strokes of ink that mark the beginning of creation.

 

[Xearesay]

I agree that The Source is essentially a manifestation of the Overvoid or to be more specific it’s a manifestation of the Overvoid referring to itself. This is why that New Gods issue also calls The Source the first knowledge and describes it as all the many meanings of everything at once, because it’s literally the totality of all that’s knowable. The light and life examples are also fitting since light is a representation of enlightenment and knowing, hence why it illuminates the empty dark space of creation, which erupts into a multiverse.

Additionally, I think any statement from Grant Morrison about The Source being the Overvoid isn’t a contradiction to anything, as The Source is a byproduct of the Void referring to itself. Meaning it’s quite literally Monitor-Mind’s thought of itself, which is utterly identical, since Monitor Mind is non-dual and resolves all thoughts and contradictions into unity, which would include the thought of itself. And we see this reflect in many stories, like Kirby’s Fourth World where The Source would be called the all and the beyond all.

 

[Xearesay]

This is very interesting.

Grant Morrison describes the Overvoid as the “comic page” on which the DC Universe is drawn, or, in-universe, as the absolute ground of reality, embedded in a higher-dimensional context (the real world). In this view, all notions of the Source or the Presence are condensed, contextualized expressions of this absolute.

From the Overvoid spontaneously emerges the Great Darkness, its first differentiation, the initial “flaw” or, metaphorically, the first strokes of ink that mark the beginning of creation.

I saw this as well and yeah it pretty much aligns perfectly with everything. The flaw is the DC multiverse but it starts out as well, darkness before being illuminated and erupting into a multiverse. And while obviously it’s an author statement, it’s still noteworthy that Grant is in alignment with this interpretation.

 

[Elizio33]

I agree that The Source is essentially a manifestation of the Overvoid or to be more specific it’s a manifestation of the Overvoid referring to itself. This is why that New Gods issue also calls The Source the first knowledge and describes it as all the many meanings of everything at once, because it’s literally the totality of all that’s knowable. The light and life examples are also fitting since light is a representation of enlightenment and knowing, hence why it illuminates the empty dark space of creation, which erupts into a multiverse.

Additionally, I think any statement from Grant Morrison about The Source being the Overvoid isn’t a contradiction to anything, as The Source is a byproduct of the Void referring to itself. Meaning it’s quite literally Monitor-Mind’s thought of itself, which is utterly identical, since Monitor Mind is non-dual and resolves all thoughts and contradictions into unity, which would include the thought of itself. And we see this reflect in many stories, like Kirby’s Fourth World where The Source would be called the all and the beyond all.

Additionally, the Void has sometimes been associated with God, or described as a part of God as His mind. Grant Morrison simply recontextualized it and called it "Overvoid." The idea that the Source is a manifestation of this absolute is not so far-fetched.

 

[Elizio33]

I saw this as well and yeah it pretty much aligns perfectly with everything. The flaw is the DC multiverse but it starts out as well, darkness before being illuminated and erupting into a multiverse. And while obviously it’s an author statement, it’s still noteworthy that Grant is in alignment with this interpretation.

Yeah, and he seems to agree that the idea that the Overvoid emerged in the Great Darkness is a misconception.

 

[Firestorm808]

You can put me as in agreement with the OP in keeping them separate for now.

 

[Elizio33]

You can put me as in agreement with the OP in keeping them separate for now.

Alright.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Hayato5652]

Is it possible to slightly edit the pages for the Overvoid and the Source?
They feel pretty outdated, and I think they also need the BDE Type 3 ability add it seems necessary to include it and even though this isn’t really the main topic of this CRT, I just wanted to bring it up

 

[Elizio33]

Bump

 

[Firestorm808]

What else is needed?

 

[Elizio33]

Nothing else I think

 

[Elizio33]

If the thread is accepted (which appears to be the case), the profiles for The Source and The Overvoid should be unlocked in order to clearly distinguish the two.

 

[Antvasima]

I have done so. Tell us here when you have finished and the pages should be re-locked.

The Source

The Source is a metaphysical concept created by writer/artist Jack Kirby for his Fourth World series of comic books. It first appeared in New Gods #1 (February 1971). It is the source of all that exists. Mostly associated with the New Gods, the Source was the supposed origin of the Godwave that...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The Overvoid

The Overvoid, also known as "Monitor-Mind The Overvoid", and the "Unknowable", is the transparent, eternal void of pure consciousness and nothingness that underlies all of creation. It exists beyond the totality of Creation and even the Source Wall, the trans-universal edges of existence where...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Elizio33]

This is an explanation of the Overvoid, the Source, and the Presence, and I would like the profiles of the Presence and the Great Darkness to be unlocked as well.

While there is some overlapping symbolism between the Source, the Presence, and the Overvoid, they are not identical. The Overvoid is the absolute backdrop of creation, the beginless and endless expanse of pure nothingness tied to God, often described metaphorically by Grant Morrison as the blank page upon which everything is "drawn." Himon's theory that the Source is a product of a self-referential void is coherent with other portrayals that identify it as a manifestation of the Creator’s power and as the Light, a creation of God that brings everything into existence from the formless void. Grant Morrison clarified that the Overvoid is the absolute ground of reality, while the Source and the Presence are condensed, contextualized expressions of this Absolute.

Furthermore, the Presence admitted that he was created by external forces, with these forces reflecting the collective beliefs of humanity, which shaped an identity and form known as “Yahweh.” At the same time, he is described as infinite and eternal, aligning with descriptions of the Void. This corresponds with the story the Presence tells Lucifer about the Monkey King and the Buddha. The Monkey King attempts to defy the Buddha by leaping beyond the universe and marking his will on the pillars of the sky, only to discover that they are part of the Buddha’s being. Similarly, Lucifer’s attempt to escape God by entering the Void fails, since even the Void lies within God’s will. This parallels the Monks of Klaa in Sandman: Overture, who describe the universe as a thought within God’s mind drifting across the Void. Taken together, these interpretations suggest that the Overvoid is the true form of God, creation consists of God’s thoughts, and the Source and the Presence are manifestations or emanations of God.