One Punch Man - Willpower is weird

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Willpower and The Limiter page

Willpower being a mechanic in-verse is fine and all, but many abilities here do not seem to be related with will.

Spoiler

Biological Manipulation & Transformation via Body Control (Those with abnormally strong willpower who have also been Monsterized are able to turn themselves back into humans at will)

This one is quite obvious

"Those who have full control over their bodies like us, are able to maintain their human form"

"But for someone from the village, you shouldn't have any problem"

No where it is stated about willpower. He is talking about body control that they prolly got due to their ninja training
However, it is stated that to not become a mindless monster you need a great will, but this is NOT the same as resisting the transformation itself, just mind/corruption resistance

• Mind Destruction, Mind Corruption, Soul Destruction & Soul Corruption (Psykos could avoid having her mind/soul corrupted and destroyed through willpower)

Again, NOTHING here states anything about willpower? Psykos just states that she forced him back, and you know what she used in the previous panel? Her telekinesis, which by obvious reasons shouldn't be related to willpower universally.

However, the second scan is NOT working, so except if I'm missing some context/scan, I don't think this should scale to everyone (I have reread the chapter and couldn't find it)

• Immense Pain Tolerance & Limited Immortality (Type 2; Those with abnormally strong willpower can survive near death conditions, as well as flat out death via sheer willpower)

Psykos pretty much states that if the subject dies, the process is over, there is no come back. So the Immortality should be removed
Also, why are we using Phoenix as an example? Bro is immortal

• Sleep Manipulation (Metal Bat could resist Rafflesidon's sleeping gas through willpower. Pri-Pri Prisoner could resist anesthetic gas through willpower)

Metal Bat in the scan is beating himself to wake up and use his Fightning Spirit boost. It is not something done with sheer willpower. We even note in Metal Bat's profile that Fightning Spirt is something outside the normal willpower. So we either remove it, or assume that most of the verse has Fightning Spirt.

For Pri-Pri Prisoner, this feat happened in the chapter 107 (In fact, it depends, since on weeb central it happens on chapter 110). The whole thing is about Pri-Pri tanking everything that the monsters use against him, but in no instance it's stated if it's done with willpower at all. He just says that he can tank it thanks to his "Love", but the entire character of Pri-Pri is about him being delusional and stupid. I mean, look at this. And even so, I don't think we can say that "Love" is the same as "Willpower" at all.

And if we assume that Pri Pri is not delusional somehow, we should assume that "Angel Hug" is a genuine technique and it's what provide his resistance

• Electricity Manipulation, Freezing, Extreme Heat, Sound Manipulation & Pain Manipulation (Pri-Pri Prisoner was unaffected by an onslaught of attacks from several monsters)

Same as before

• Poison Manipulation (Pri-Pri Prisoner could resist being stabbed with venomous blades through sheer willpower)

Same as before but this one got some anti feats, like Garou being under affect of arrows with poison. Despiste the poison not paralysing him, it is noted that it's affecting him. So at best it could be some Limited Resistance

And that's it. I was gonna make a Cursed Energy revision but realized that there's too many JJK crts so I went with this

EDIT: People seem to want to delete the page itself, so I will add this as an option too

Just remove the above

Agrees: @Damage3245

Disagree:

Neutral:

Delete the page itself:

Agrees: @Damage3245 @Phoenks @Kin201 @ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn @Nierre

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[Damage3245]

The OP seems to be fine to me.

 

[Gamecooob]

willpower meta semi gg?
needa get Kachon & Tayman here

 

[Damage3245]

@Kachon123 @MrTayman616 Could either of you comment here when you have time?

 

[Kin201]

@Kachon123 @MrTayman616 Could either of you comment here when you have time?

Why don't you @ one or two staff members who are also knowledgeable about the verse?

 

[Phoenks]

Unfortunately, I think this page should actually be outright removed.

"Willpower" in OPM is not a universally applicable thing which the series supports. These powers being applicable to everyone is just an assumption, really. While I think some of it seems pretty obvious, it is all only very loosely connected.

And the page itself is very short, with barely any powers on it in the first place. I don't think it is something which even requires a verse-specific power at the moment.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Unfortunately, I think this page should actually be outright removed.

I had this idea but I thought it would be too much, but I can add this as an option

 

[Kin201]

The part about the Limiter should not be removed, as it is relevant to Saitama's growth and Garou's copying ability in versus battles.

 

[Damage3245]

The part about the Limiter should not be removed, as it is relevant to Saitama's growth and Garou's copying ability in versus battles.

That information could be added to their own pages instead, right?

 

[DavidTPPM]

Yeah ngl I was always a bit surprised we treat willpower feats as something completely universal in the verse. Willpower irl is very individual for every person and even the verse treats it as such. Things like fighting spirit for example are very strictly character-specific and absolutely not something everyone with high willpower has access to.

So I'm in favor of just slapping the character specific willpowerish feats on their own profiles and removing the general verse-specific ability. Maybe an argument could be made for the limit-removal folk having all general abilities achieved by willpower but even for that I'm not sure

 

[Phoenks]

That information could be added to their own pages instead, right?

Yeah this seems like the best course of action. Having to click to another page which has like maybe ~5-10 abilities on it is not necessary.

Best to just move the stuff that is pretty obviously universal to the character pages. Pretty sure it only really affects Saitama and Garou, anyway.

 

[Farfetchedx]

About the bio manipulation & transformation part. Regular humans could revert their transformations through willpower

Also, the Heroes Association was conducting experiments to revert the monster transformation based on what silver fang said, and though it may be retconned, the theory seems to still exist. I assume this is how Blast was planning to revert Empty Void.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

About the bio manipulation & transformation part. Regular humans could revert their transformations through willpower

Nothing about willpower, and they are only half monster, and they are a exception due to Do-S

Also, the Heroes Association was conducting experiments to revert the monster transformation based on what silver fang said, and though it may be retconned, the theory seems to still exist. I assume this is how Blast was planning to revert Empty Void.

Same again. That bear monster also has greater willpower than the normal humans that Do-S had as slaves, yet cannot go human at all

That information could be added to their own pages instead, right?

Should I add you to page deletion agreement?

 

[Damage3245]

Should I add you to page deletion agreement?

Yeah.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

I'm also for deleting the page since so few people benefit from it, and a lot of the stuff on it doesn't even apply to willpower. Most of the actual, relevant information can be included on Garo and Saitama's pages (they're honestly the only reason the page even exists).

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Man, I never understood the part about resistance to power null, like.

It's indexed as something for anyone with willpower. But the justification says it's because of the broken limiter and uses Saitama as an example. So why did it become a general thing for everyone with willpower?

• Possibly Power Nullification (Body, Mind & Spirit; The Limiter limits the user's growth and the abilities they gain both physically and mentally/spiritually as Saitama's mind/spirit was capable of doing things it shouldn't be able to)

Like, as far as I know, everyone who has willpower still has limiters, unlike Saitama. So, besides not mentioning willpower, they still use Saitama, who has a broken metric limiter.

Also imgur not working, I know your pain.

 

[MrTayman616]

No where it is stated about willpower. He is talking about body control that they prolly got due to their ninja training
However, it is stated that to not become a mindless monster you need a great will, but this is NOT the same as resisting the transformation itself, just mind/corruption resistance

I mean, becoming a human again comes from their heart/will. Though i'm not sure why it was applied that way from the ninjas. Kachon might give a better answer about it.

Metal Bat in the scan is beating himself to wake up and use his Fightning Spirit boost. It is not something done with sheer willpower. We even note in Metal Bat's profile that Fightning Spirt is something outside the normal willpower. So we either remove it, or assume that most of the verse has Fightning Spirt.

His fighting spirit is an extension of willpower. He even knows you can overcome death with it, literally resurrection statement. (That's simply what he calls it, Garou also acknowledges it like that at some point, while adapting to telekinesis.).

His case is kinda different because he gets pumped up when he gets damage, not while he's in a casual state. That's why he had to damage himself, to get pumped up. It's more of his personal issues.

Psykos pretty states that if the subject dies, the process is over, there is no come back. So the Immortality should be removed
Also, why are we using Phoenix as an example? Bro is immortal

Limited Immortality Type 2 exactly fits the situation. Garou overcame death on several occasions, many of them being situations that would cause instant death based on visuals and statements.

No one argues "Resurrection" here. The page is using Phoenix's Man statement about "overcoming near death", not his resurrection. (Even then, it's a case of overcoming death stated by him, Metal Bat and Gyoro Gyoro)

Those who fails are ones whose will weren't high enough. Their will gave up and they became mindless or died in the process. Gyoro Gyoro was making sure to give them just "enough" hell.

For Pri-Pri Prisoner, this feat happened in the chapter 107 (In fact, it depends, since on weeb central it happens on chapter 110). The whole thing is about Pri-Pri tanking everything that the monsters use against him, but in no instance it's stated if it's done with willpower at all. He just says that he can tank it thanks to his "Love", but the entire character of Pri-Pri is about him being delusional and stupid. I mean, look at this. And even so, I don't think we can say that "Love" is the same as "Willpower" at all.

His love is an extension of his willpower (It gives him determination lol). He also regenerates from a fatal injury because of it etc.

It's indexed as something for anyone with willpower. But the justification says it's because of the broken limiter and uses Saitama as an example. So why did it become a general thing for everyone with willpower?

Oh, i didn't realize it lol. Sry that's on me, i should have added it to Limiter section but mistook it with the "resistance" section

 

[Farfetchedx]

Nothing about willpower

What? It's obviously willpower related. What could "their hearts" possibly mean ?

, and they are only half monster,

It would still be limited resistance

and they are a exception due to Do-S

Why? Plus it's later related to the reverting of monster transformations

Same again. That bear monster also has greater willpower than the normal humans that Do-S had as slaves, yet cannot go human at all

Yeah because he fully turned. Also what makes you think he has greater willpower?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I mean, becoming a human again comes from their heart/will. Though i'm not sure why it was applied that way from the ninjas. Kachon might give a better answer about it.

They are only partially monsterized, and if even regular people can come back from it with a bit of heart, should it be a resistance at all?

His fighting spirit is an extension of willpower.

Correct, that's what I said. It's some specific use of willpower. It's something noted to be special for Bat (and eventually for Garou). It shouldn't be something used universally

Limited Immortality Type 2 exactly fits the situation. Garou overcame death on several occasions, many of them being situations that would cause instant death based on visuals and statements.

Garou is a hyper specific case. We cannot make anyone with great willpower scale to it at all (And none of these actually killed him). Garou is the character known to have a extremly big stamina, not Pri-Pri Prisoner

His love is an extension of his willpower (It gives him determination lol

Nothing about will

He also regenerates from a fatal injury because of it etc.

This is by using a technique called "Angel Bristly Armor" to do that. Pri-Pri, in fact, got numerous weird techniques, like "Vibration Angel Descended" that makes him vibrate so much that even a touch is fatal
And with that in mind, Pri-Pri also resisted all of these effects with a technique called "Angel Hug". So I don't think it should scale universally anyway too. I mean, or we also need to give hair manipulation to everyone with willpower

 

[MrTayman616]

They are only partially monsterized, and if even regular people can come back from it with a bit of heart, should it be a resistance at all?

Good point. Based on partially monsterization alone, no.

Correct, that's what I said. It's some specific use of willpower. It's something noted to be special for Bat (and eventually for Garou). It shouldn't be something used universally

It's Metal Bat's limitation as he's the one who's incapable of doing it normally without taking damage. He's the type of guy that only gets pumped up after getting damaged. That's the "special" part.

Garou is a hyper specific case. We cannot make anyone with great willpower scale to it at all (And none of these actually killed him). Garou is the character known to have a extremly big stamina, not Pri-Pri Prisoner

Garou is the living example. Also what? Entire topic about overcoming death in general, then Garou does it but it makes his case "hyper specific"?

Also characters like Child Emperor etc doesn't scale to it. Saitama, Garou, Orochi, Phoenix Man and Metal Bat are the characters who's known to do it based on feats and statements.

Nothing about will

Obvious by observation.

This is by using a technique called "Angel Bristly Armor" to do that. Pri-Pri, in fact, got numerous weird techniques, like "Vibration Angel Descended" that makes him vibrate so much that even a touch is fatal
And with that in mind, Pri-Pri also resisted all of these effects with a technique called "Angel Hug". So I don't think it should scale universally anyway too. I mean, or we also need to give hair manipulation to everyone with willpower

No. I'm not talking about his body hair. He literally regenerates the fatal wound. His love is a great source of his will.

For hair manipulation, It's an ability he gains later. Puri Puri Prisoner evolves here and he gets the ability of "Angel Bristly Armor" where he can use it at will (ridiculous, i know). It doesn't scale universally like the regeneration Garou gained via evolution.

 

[Campo1uc]

The OP seems to be fine to me.

I think you agree with every downgrade of One-Punch Man, it smells like hate.

 

[MrTayman616]

I think you agree with every downgrade of One-Punch Man, it smells like hate.

I won't lie, this was the first time i've ever seen Damage agree with a crt this fast.

It's not hate, he cares about accuracy. You can check his threads or comments about other verses as well.

 

[Nierre]

I think you agree with every downgrade of One-Punch Man, it smells like hate.

hate for what exactly??
people are getting too comfortable with these type of accusations, just because someone agrees with downgrades does not mean they hate the verse. completely unconstructive comment.

Phoenks and David make sense to me.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Bump
Two mods agreed (Three if we count Phoenix), is there any need for more?

 

[MrTayman616]

Bump
Two mods agreed (Three if we count Phoenix), is there any need for more?

Three vote is needed for opm threads. I'd also wait for Kachon's response as he's the creator of the page. (If he wants to ig :d)

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Bump
Two mods agreed (Three if we count Phoenix), is there any need for more?

OPM are 3 votes for crts.

 

[Vietthai96]

Hmm, read the thread, i agree with delete the page and move relevant abilities to relevant profiles

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Minor Bump.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I was waiting until weekend since Kachon is busy
But it's technically already accepted

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

I was waiting until weekend since Kachon is busy
But it's technically already accepted

Cool! So this thread can be closed now?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

bump

 

[Kachon123]

Biological Manipulation & Transformation via Body Control (Those with abnormally strong willpower who have also been Monsterized are able to turn themselves back into humans at will)

This one is quite obvious

"Those who have full control over their bodies like us, are able to maintain their human form"

"But for someone from the village, you shouldn't have any problem"

No where it is stated about willpower. He is talking about body control that they prolly got due to their ninja training
However, it is stated that to not become a mindless monster you need a great will, but this is NOT the same as resisting the transformation itself, just mind/corruption resistance

It's directly stated by Hellfire Flame that this "ninja training" is their strength of will. Right before saying "For someone from the village, you shouldn't have a problem," he claimed that people not from the village oftentimes lose their minds through the process of monsterization. What's needed to avoid this is strength of will. Sonic and Flashy Flash specifically have stronger willpower than Hellfire Flame and Gale Wind, which is why they have it. It's an ability derived from willpower. Characters like Saitama, Orochi, and Garou have the peak levels of willpower in the series, and all that's where all of Saitama's powers come from as he was a normal human to begin with who became strong through willpower.

• Resistance to Mind Destruction, Mind Corruption, Soul Destruction & Soul Corruption (Psykos could avoid having her mind/soul corrupted and destroyed through willpower)

Again, NOTHING here states anything about willpower? Psykos just states that she forced him back, and you know what she used in the previous panel? Her telekinesis, which by obvious reasons shouldn't be related to willpower universally.

However, the second scan is NOT working, so except if I'm missing some context/scan, I don't think this should scale to everyone (I have reread the chapter and couldn't find it)

Psychic energy is empowered by willpower which uses a lot of mental energy. In One-Punch Man, mind = soul. Orochi was corrupting and deconstructing Psykos' soul when trying to take over her mind during the fusion. In order to take her mind back, she needed to use vast amounts willpower and mental energy to use her psychic energy. Esper powers don't have the ability to take over minds. All Psykos did was flex her willpower and mental energy, and because that's what esper powers run on, electricity released from her brain.

• Sleep Manipulation (Metal Bat could resist Rafflesidon's sleeping gas through willpower. Pri-Pri Prisoner could resist anesthetic gas through willpower)

Metal Bat in the scan is beating himself to wake up and use his Fightning Spirit boost. It is not something done with sheer willpower. We even note in Metal Bat's profile that Fightning Spirt is something outside the normal willpower. So we either remove it, or assume that most of the verse has Fightning Spirt.

What are you even talking about? Fighting Spirit literally is willpower. Metal Bat just has a crazy shit ton of it so his causes his to grow a lot when damaged. Garou reached this same stage once he half-monsterized. It's even noted as such on his profile:

• Supernatural Willpower (Can endure large amounts of pain while staying conscious and fighting)
  • Statistics Amplification via Fighting Spirit (Fueled by his willpower, he can become stronger with each hit he takes)

Resistance to:

• Sleep Manipulation (Resisted the effects of Rafflesidon's sleeping gas through the strength of his willpower alone)

A sub-bullet under a bullet point means it's part of the ability. "Statistic Amplification" (Fighting Spirit) is a sub-bullet under Supernatural Willpower. Hence why you read the justification for it, it states that it's as a result of willpower. Resistance to sleep manipulation is the same way. It's mentioned to be through willpower.

Also, Metal Bat did not hit himself to wake himself up through pain. That's not how gas works. It was so activate his fighting spirit/become pumped up, which is his way of describing his willpower.

For Pri-Pri Prisoner, this feat happened in the chapter 107 (In fact, it depends, since on weeb central it happens on chapter 110). The whole thing is about Pri-Pri tanking everything that the monsters use against him, but in no instance it's stated if it's done with willpower at all. He just says that he can tank it thanks to his "Love", but the entire character of Pri-Pri is about him being delusional and stupid. I mean, look at this. And even so, I don't think we can say that "Love" is the same as "Willpower" at all.

And if we assume that Pri Pri is not delusional somehow, we should assume that "Angel Hug" is a genuine technique and it's what provide his resistance

• Electricity Manipulation, Freezing, Extreme Heat, Sound Manipulation & Pain Manipulation (Pri-Pri Prisoner was unaffected by an onslaught of attacks from several monsters)

Same as before

The issue with this is that what Pri-Pri Prisoner calls "love" is the same thing that is used to revert half-monsters back into humans (and also progress them further). We know that's willpower. The different effects that happen to PPP as well as the things he's able to resist also lines up to other willpower-based resistances so that's just further support.

• Poison Manipulation (Pri-Pri Prisoner could resist being stabbed with venomous blades through sheer willpower)

Same as before but this one got some anti feats, like Garou being under affect of arrows with poison. Despiste the poison not paralysing him, it is noted that it's affecting him. So at best it could be some Limited Resistance

There's a difference between a numbing poison and venom knives. There's a reason why Garou's not mentioned in that page, because he didn't outright resist the poison. What you're looking for is on Garou's profile.

If someone can give me an actual reason to delete the page other than what seems like "I don't like it," then I'll agree to it. Saitama's entire moveset (his resistances and whatnot) are a direct result of his willpower. We know for a fact that willpower also grants the ninjas certain abilities. As with Garou and Orochi. Put me for a hard disagree.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Bro why in a Monday

 

[DavidTPPM]

Honestly none of Kachons arguments actually tackle the real issue. Yes many of these abilities or resistance have some ties to willpower, but that doesn't prove that anyone with strong willpower can perfectly replicate them.

Fact of the matter remains that both irl and in OPM willpower is completely subjective. PPPs love and MBs fighting spirit for example are completely different. And even if they were not, willpower isn't quantifiable so there's no way to actually say who who should get who's resistances. Mumen Rider has some of the best willpowers in the verse and bro is still a trashass C tier hero while Garou and MB pretty quickly jumped to S class levels of power thanks to their willpower-related growth.

And that is ultimately what makes the ability bad. It's like giving everyone with arms and legs martial arts expertise or anyone with a brain genius intelligence.

 

[Kachon123]

Honestly none of Kachons arguments actually tackle the real issue. Yes many of these abilities or resistance have some ties to willpower, but that doesn't prove that anyone with strong willpower can perfectly replicate them.

Fact of the matter remains that both irl and in OPM willpower is completely subjective. PPPs love and MBs fighting spirit for example are completely different. And even if they were not, willpower isn't quantifiable so there's no way to actually say who who should get who's resistances. Mumen Rider has some of the best willpowers in the verse and bro is still a trashass C tier hero while Garou and MB pretty quickly jumped to S class levels of power thanks to their willpower-related growth.

And that is ultimately what makes the ability bad. It's like giving everyone with arms and legs martial arts expertise or anyone with a brain genius intelligence.

The only people with willpower listen on their pages are characters who have stronger willpower than others. With direct statements that said greater willpower will give them the abilities.Mumen Rider honestly shouldn't even have the ability.
Fighting Spirit is literally the same willpower-based growth that most people have. Pri-Pri Prisoner, Garou, Saitama, Orochi, and Phoenix Man.

A step above being able to resist losing your mind from monsterization is being able to transform your body like the ninjas, and a step above that would be fighting spirit-type growth that most monsters die before ever reaching.

 

[DavidTPPM]

The only people with willpower listen on their pages are characters who have stronger willpower than others. With direct statements that said greater willpower will give them the abilities.

Yeah but again willpower isn't something that has some objective magnitude. One person can have great willpower in the sense that they can withstand great amounts of physical pain while another can have great willpower in the sense that they can withstand great mental pressure like stress. But having 1 doesn't mean you have both nor does it mean your willpower will allow you to push yourself further than normal person in terms of something like a physically difficult task.

Mumen Rider honestly shouldn't even have the ability.
Fighting Spirit is literally the same willpower-based growth that most people have. Pri-Pri Prisoner, Garou, Saitama, Orochi, and Phoenix Man.

Who has ever shown that tho? Legit nobody except MB and the limiter breakers have shown fighting spirit. And nobody without psychic abilities have shown to resist mental/spiritual destruction through willpower.

Again this comes down to willpower not being something like reiatsu or chakra where you can quantify that 1 character has objectively more/stronger of it than another.

A step above being able to resist losing your mind from monsterization is being able to transform your body like the ninjas, and a step above that would be fighting spirit-type growth that most monsters die before ever reaching.

No that's just not true because again willpower isn't some quantifiable metric that works the same with all living beings.

None of what you're saying actually addresses the issue of willpower being a personal, subjective thing which can't be effectively translated to everyone.

You could easily take something like Saitamas lazyass not finding a well paying job despite being a genius nor climbing the ranks more actively as lack of willpower. Does that mean I have stronger willpower because I'm employed? Obviously not, it means his willpower is strong in a completely different way than mine.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

vump

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I could argue with Kachon but I won't be capable to edit the profiles with my computer even if this get accepted until weekend, so I have decided to just wait until some free time lol

 

[Phsccarvalho]

even if this get accepted until weekend

But has it been technically accepted? There are three votes with Vieth, right?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

But has it been technically accepted? There are three votes with Vieth, right?

Correct