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One Piece: Pre Timeskip Key Merge Part 1

KingTempest

KingTempest

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So we're merging the keys from Enies Lobby to Marineford for everybody.

This means that they scale from Franky's durability calc in Enies Lobby, as Franky's... a cyborg, I don't think iron would strengthen by doing nothing overtime.
Fukurou hurt him so he scales, and they scale off of him.

Also, we're not linearly scaling Rokushiki anymore. Idk when we ruled that rokushiki was linear to regular strength or an equal increase but not anymore.

https://media.**********.net/attachments/863171196035661834/1272604087820484699/Screenshot_2024-08-12_at_1.14.15_PM.png?ex=66bb946a&is=66ba42ea&hm=09de16c3cb4bddb2243e49c6ad88ba5dd512bb7a05e55c9bf9f73c32cbd3a472&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=916&height=694

Jabra and Kaku's Rokushiki scale above Blueno's, so they scale to 9.3 GT as well.

This is where they scale in Gigatons

Blueno's Rokushiki ~ Luffy ~ Lucci > 9.3 GT
Zoro ~ Kaku's Rokushiki > Blueno's Rokushiki > 9.3 GT
Sanji ~ Hybrid Jabra's Rokushiki > Blueno's Rokushiki > 9.3 GT
Rumble Chopper ~ Kumadori > 1.89 GT
Franky ~ Fukurou > 1.87 GT
Nami ~ Kalifa > 1.47 GT

That's it. Time to discuss.
 
usopp-live-reaction-one-piece-goofy-ahh-face.gif
 
KingTempest said:
Gear 2nd scales above that, then G3rd scales above Luffy's Jet Bazooka
Click to expand...
Yeah, Diable Jambe Sanji & Shusui Zoro scale to Gear 2nd through the Pacifista & Oars.

And an argument can be made for EL Asura Zoro being relative to that value via the No.2 & "As strong as Luffy" statements in the databooks.
 
Eminiteable said:
Yeah, Diable Jambe Sanji & Shusui Zoro scale to Gear 2nd through the Pacifista & Oars.

And an argument can be made for EL Asura Zoro being relative to that value via the No.2 & "As strong as Luffy" statements in the databooks.
Click to expand...
I agree with the OP and this as well.
 
I'll evaluate this tomorrow, most likely.
 
I'm not in favor of the proposed scaling here which is dependent on Fukurou scaling the calc for Franky's durability in Chapter 592.

For Fukurou attacks on Franky to be considered to be around 1.87 Gigatons, then we'd have to see that he inflicts comparable damage to Franky that the explosion did. Let's do a quick recap of the attacks Fukurou is actually seen landing on Franky.

1) Fukurou hits Franky with his Finger Pistol variant, Solid Beast, a hard-hitting punch thrown with the speed of his Finger Pistol technique.

2) Fukurou hits Franky again with a Solid Beast straight to the face.

3) Franky and Fukurou exchange multiple blows in succession, quite possibly all of them being his Solid Beast technique. By the number of fists, at least 5, probably more.

4) Fukurou hits Franky with his ultimate technique, Owl Strike, performing the Solid Beast several times all over his body at rapid speed. By my count there's around 28 hits landed on Franky here in the first panel, and then even more in the fourth panel.

5) Fukurou hits Franky with another Solid Beast.

6) Fukurou hits Franky in the back with a Tempest Kick.

7) Fukurou slams into Franky with his Iron Ball technique.

8) Fukurou punches Franky down with another Solid Beast.

9) Fukurou hits Franky with another barrage of punches before finally being defeated by Franky's Coup de Vent. At least 6 hits visible here.

So to recap, Fukurou hits Franky at least 45 times over the course of their fight.

And yet after all of that, Franky is less damaged by the end of the fight than he was after taking the Vegapunk lab explosion. Franky being hit by 1.87 Gigatons of explosion (at least going by our current calc) is heavily damaged the front of his body and face. Another thing to consider is that this is damage is applied to the cross-sectional area of Franky, or roughly 50% of his surface area essentially. A person's face accounts for 3.5% of their surface area so even if we say that Fukurou's punch is landing across half of Franky's face here for example then that means the force of Fukurou's attack is being inflicted on an area over 28x smaller than what the explosion hit of Franky.

That means that if Fukurou's punch dealt comparable damage to the explosion, it would still be the vicinity of 28x less powerful. And Fukurou hit Franky numerous times with attacks that individually or cumulatively do not appear to be as powerful as the explosion Franky survived based on how Franky takes Fukurou's attacks much better.

I know some people may assert that if Fukurou damaged Franky at all, then he must be somewhat comparable to the explosion as both damaged Franky, right? But I don't think it's as simple as "Franky tanked the explosion so his durability is that high."

Our page on Durability has a section on "Surviving Attacks". This is what I believe Franky's case more closely falls under than a straightforward durability feat. Franky did survive the explosion, but we don't see the direct aftermath here to say he was totally fine being hit by it. In fact the anime episode 512 shows that after being hit by the explosion Franky is found some time later by civilians, a while after the explosion took place, and he was half-buried upisde-down in the ground until they found him. It's not a stretch to say he was incapacited by the explosion for a while compared to how Fukurou's barrage of punches barely fazes him.

There could be greater support for Franky being able to take such attacks regularly in combat if he was shown to scale to anyone who fights at that level, but most characters around that time who Franky has fought have calcs in the vicinity of 7-B, Low 7-B , 7-C, etc.

The conclusion that I've personally reached by the end of it is that Fukurou's Rokushiki-based attacks do not scale comparably to a value of 1.87 Gigatons just becaue he hurt Franky with them.
 
I'm on a break so I'll close this. I'll respond back when I'm off my break
 
Damage3245 said:
And yet after all of that, Franky is less damaged by the end of the fight than he was after taking the Vegapunk lab explosion. Franky being hit by 1.87 Gigatons of explosion (at least going by our current calc) is heavily damaged the front of his body and face. Another thing to consider is that this is damage is applied to the cross-sectional area of Franky, or roughly 50% of his surface area essentially. A person's face accounts for 3.5% of their surface area so even if we say that Fukurou's punch is landing across half of Franky's face here for example then that means the force of Fukurou's attack is being inflicted on an area over 28x smaller than what the explosion hit of Franky.

That means that if Fukurou's punch dealt comparable damage to the explosion, it would still be the vicinity of 28x less powerful. And Fukurou hit Franky numerous times with attacks that individually or cumulatively do not appear to be as powerful as the explosion Franky survived based on how Franky takes Fukurou's attacks much better.

I know some people may assert that if Fukurou damaged Franky at all, then he must be somewhat comparable to the explosion as both damaged Franky, right? But I don't think it's as simple as "Franky tanked the explosion so his durability is that high."

Our page on Durability has a section on "Surviving Attacks". This is what I believe Franky's case more closely falls under than a straightforward durability feat. Franky did survive the explosion, but we don't see the direct aftermath here to say he was totally fine being hit by it. In fact the anime episode 512 shows that after being hit by the explosion Franky is found some time later by civilians, a while after the explosion took place, and he was half-buried upisde-down in the ground until they found him. It's not a stretch to say he was incapacited by the explosion for a while compared to how Fukurou's barrage of punches barely fazes him.
Click to expand...
I'd actually argue both the manga and the anime show the opposite. From what is seen, the force of the explosion did next to nothing to Franky. Heck, he got up right after getting hit by it and the gag of the scene was that he didn't notice it and was more focused on Luffy's 3d2y message. Franky really only had his face and hair scorched. I wouldn't describe that as him just "surviving" the explosion.

Later in the arc base Rob Lucci nearly one-shotted Franky. To say that they weren't doing relative damage is flat-out incorrect.
Damage3245 said:
For Fukurou attacks on Franky to be considered to be around 1.87 Gigatons, then we'd have to see that he inflicts comparable damage to Franky that the explosion did. Let's do a quick recap of the attacks Fukurou is actually seen landing on Franky.

1) Fukurou hits Franky with his Finger Pistol variant, Solid Beast, a hard-hitting punch thrown with the speed of his Finger Pistol technique.

2) Fukurou hits Franky again with a Solid Beast straight to the face.

3) Franky and Fukurou exchange multiple blows in succession, quite possibly all of them being his Solid Beast technique. By the number of fists, at least 5, probably more.

4) Fukurou hits Franky with his ultimate technique, Owl Strike, performing the Solid Beast several times all over his body at rapid speed. By my count there's around 28 hits landed on Franky here in the first panel, and then even more in the fourth panel.

5) Fukurou hits Franky with another Solid Beast.

6) Fukurou hits Franky in the back with a Tempest Kick.

7) Fukurou slams into Franky with his Iron Ball technique.

8) Fukurou punches Franky down with another Solid Beast.

9) Fukurou hits Franky with another barrage of punches before finally being defeated by Franky's Coup de Vent. At least 6 hits visible here.

So to recap, Fukurou hits Franky at least 45 times over the course of their fight.
Click to expand...
Fukurou's attacks were dealing significant damage to Franky, with each blow causing him to lose a large amount of blood so being able to withstand several of them just highlights his endurance more than anything. Franky even acknowledged that a direct hit from one of Fukurou's attacks could completely pulverize him. In contrast, he was able to completely shrug off the Baldimore explosion.
 
Damage3245 said:
Another thing to consider is that this is damage is applied to the cross-sectional area of Franky, or roughly 50% of his surface area essentially. A person's face accounts for 3.5% of their surface area so even if we say that Fukurou's punch is landing across half of Franky's face here for example then that means the force of Fukurou's attack is being inflicted on an area over 28x smaller than what the explosion hit of Franky.
Click to expand...
I tried working with this and I got shat on by it by the entire wiki. So this is a non factor.
 
Huh, I didn't realize how long it's been since this thread was active. I'm going to need to do a little refreshing on this.
 
Sorry, been too occupied and won't be able to focus on OP revisions for a while. I'll switch to neutral.
 
Kachon123 said:
No. Zoro meant to cut Kaku's Iron Body, which is why Tempest Kick was able to block it.
Click to expand...
Not sure that disproves scaling.

Also, Hybrid Rokushiki/Yontoryu Kaku had the upper hand against Zoro even with the latter's strongest attacks until Zoro used Asura.
 
Eseseso said:
Not sure that disproves scaling.
Click to expand...
It does. Kaku is at his most durable when using Iron Body, scaling above his Tempest Kick at the very least. Lion Song is a technique that utilizes Goken (Mighty Blade), allowing Zoro’s blades to follow his will and cut only what he intends. Zoro explicitly stated that he would slice through Iron Body, and Kaku’s decision to block with Tempest Kick instead confirms that..
Eseseso said:
Also, Hybrid Rokushiki/Yontoryu Kaku had the upper hand against Zoro even with the latter's strongest attacks until Zoro used Asura.
Click to expand...
This is false.
 
Kachon123 said:
It does. Kaku is at his most durable when using Iron Body, scaling above his Tempest Kick at the very least. Lion Song is a technique that utilizes Goken (Mighty Blade), allowing Zoro’s blades to follow his will and cut only what he intends. Zoro explicitly stated that he would slice through Iron Body, and Kaku’s decision to block with Tempest Kick instead confirms that..
Click to expand...
Fair enough, though Kaku's hybrid durability should still scale to the 18.7 gigaton Two Gorilla since he does withstand it despite it overpowering his Rokushiki.
Kachon123 said:
This is false.
Click to expand...
The second half of those scans show Kaku gaining the upper hand but I'll drop the argument.
 
I agree with this, but I’m wondering where Monster Point Chopper scales. He is so much stronger than his other forms and if I remember correctly the Straw Hats and CP9 agents were alarmed by his presence (should at least suggest MP being physically comparable to them as it would make no sense for them to be worried if Chopper was way weaker). I think it is enough to allow him to at the bare minimum downscale from the 9 gigaton value.
 
OrangeFR said:
I agree with this, but I’m wondering where Monster Point Chopper scales. He is so much stronger than his other forms and if I remember correctly the Straw Hats and CP9 agents were alarmed by his presence (should at least suggest MP being physically comparable to them as it would make no sense for them to be worried if Chopper was way weaker). I think it is enough to allow him to at the bare minimum downscale from the 9 gigaton value.
Click to expand...
Given that he stomped Rokushiki Kumadori, he should just scale above whatever Rokushiki Kumadori scales to.
 
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