Toaru Discussion thread New Fourms #1

[ToaruCounterfeitCRC]

Pretty much tbh. In the end, there isn't really any major conclusion that we're gonna be able to come to on these topics without further elaboration from Kamachi.

On another note, isn't this literally textbook concept manipulation from Alice?

I assume most things related to Alice will get exposed in GT10. She seems to be more haxed than we could've thought, but nothing substantial yet.

What do you guys think? I'd suggest adding this to the list of potential changes if there is any major CRT in the works.

Agree, but we need to wait for GT10 anyway.

---

All because Kamachi reused so little magics from the past volumes in GT9, we have no way to powerscale.
Unless we headcanon something like Dragon King Touma >= full power MGs or at least >= nerfed MGs, there's simply no reference point.
If we took >= nerfed MGs just to be safe, there'll be hilarious consequence such like

Spoiler

High 1-C Aleister gets too scared to fight upon seeing two 5-Bs exchanging attacks.

 

[XDragnoir]

I will only answer again because it's really annoying to see lots of claims that I disagree with and claims that... I'd like to see the source.

As I said Crowley's Hazard are not important. What is important is this quote, which is pretty much a quote from the Guidebook, which says that Sephiroth is the spiritual world of the human world.

You're missing the point of what I said, transcending numbers and grammar in this context refers to the Crowley's Hazards, the Sephiroth also being unexplainable by grammar or math means absolutely nothing.

I also never said anything about it being the spiritual world so I have no idea why you brought it up.

Agnesse SS. This book also reinforces the fact that mages are forced to create a world/temple to use magic, which causes the current Phase to be distorted.

Okay?

No, think back to NT10. Humans did not create angels and gods. Angels and Gods existed in their worlds as formless energies, but it was humanity's faith that gave them a certain form and image.

Did you read NT9? It is literally stated that our religions created these worlds, the Phases, and therefore the energy inside them, to begin with, there is no energy for them to exist before we create the Phase where they will exist, you're contradicting yourself here.

The faith part I will talk about next.

That is why the appearance of Phase beings can differ from the real angels and gods. That is Phase is only energy which has received an image and form because of the faith of humanity.
So people didn't create the 6 worlds of Buddhism or the 30 worlds of Aetir.

And If by NT10 you mean what Marian did, you're literally reading the whole thing backwards and therefore missing both my point and what Marian did.

Marian doesn't summon Phase Beings, she cuts a massive amount of Phase Energy and shapes it according a calamity from that religion, but they're not the real gods that are actual Phase Beings, what you said here is wrong because you're treating what Marian summons as actual beings when they're not, as for the faith point, it only applies to the fake ones that Marian summons, it doesn't apply to the Real Deal (not to the same extent and not in the way you're trying to imply).

And even then, you're wrong because again, the Phases and therefore the energy in them were created by the Religions, we know that from NT9, so yes, humans created the 6 worlds from Buddhism and whatever else was confirmed as being a Phase.

In our case, range also means power, because Fiamma was able to affect structures beyond the Four Worlds Surface.

First, could you give a quote saying that what he affected is beyond the surface of the Four Worlds? I don't particularly disagree, but I want to see the proof anyway.

Aleister also said that Fiamma's ceremony was very similar to his ceremony. Aleister wanted to manipulate the thickness of the phases and then create some sort of temple.

Okay, that doesn't mean they would do it on the same scale, bringing Aleister up doesn't help your case at all.

Fiamma accomplished a similar feat of summoning the Heaven Phase to Earth(possibly also manipulating the thickness of the Heaven Phase), and he also had enough energy to complete his ceremony, but Fiamma failed.

Sure, this doesn't scale to him or help anything you're trying to argue, indeed, I don't even know what's your main point anymore.

And Fiamma is comparable to the Second Adam who saved the Tree of Sephiroth from external attack[?].

Where is it ever stated that Fiamma has power on that scale? This is for sure a claim that I'd like to see the proof, at best I can see Fiamma having a similar role, but he doesn't have this power level at all.

But the power of Aiwass is unknown, unless one starts reading the actual occult books by Aleister Crowley, which states that Aiwass is 10=1, meaning it is at the very top of the top, or Keter.

First, why do y'all insist on bringing IRL things to Toaru discussions? Damn.

Aiwass's power would clearly be above the MGs with Aleister's ceremony, which is the version of Aiwass I was talking about.

Being in a human body Coronzon becomes weaker. She can't use most of her powers, due to the lack of purity in the Surface in the human world, and is forced to use human magic, and because of the strongest attacks, her body is unable to move. For her to use the human body is like torture.

Why did you even explain this, which I am pretty sure everyone here already knew, instead of answering what I actually brought up there?

Because despite the huge amount of artifacts(or other analogs) within England, the character thought specifically about the power of the archangel, which could be given out to everyone like in OT18.

Because they were talking about Curtana which is the strongest they have and they made it clear that an Archangel WOULDN'T be enough, they were talking about it exactly because it's the best not because it could resist Coronzon, you're reading something that isn't anywhere in that quote.

Also, the power everyone got in OT18 is trash tier so no idea why you brought it up.

In this text, it is unclear what was meant by the other pyramid. Was it meant that the Coronzon is a strange angel or is the Coronzon simply stronger than the Archangels, as she is able to manipulate her soul rank. The Archangels and Coronzon exist in the same hierarchy, they could even exist in parallel hierarchies as many mythologies have soul rank analogs. The same Coronzon in general from Enochian magic, it was later Aleister added it to the Tree of Sephiroth, as the 30 spheres of Aetir and the Tree of Sephiroth are comparable to each other, so passing through Aetir is similar to ascending through the Tree of Sephiroth. Therefore, I myself do not understand who is stronger and who is weaker.

Sure, sure, but you know I wasn't talking about their power in the part you quoted there, right? You claimed they had a relationship, I don't think there's any, you're just not answering anything here.

But in NT10 it is explicitly stated that if not for the Marian barrier, the power released by the Phase Beings would have caused an event of the level of Angel's Fall, or at worst would have simply destroyed the world.

Yeah, but what she does doesn't scale to anyone else because it takes the summon of multiple of them to do that.

NT20 also talks about Gabriel being able to destroy the world.

Not sure about NT20 quote about Gabriel destroying the World, but NT21 is more than likely referring to the planet when it say says "unclean world" meanwhile it also talks about the effect Gabriel had over the "entire World" which we barely saw in OT4 but was there, but given there were 4 Archangels and the World didn't completely break, so this should be enough to see how they don't scale to it.

And we're talking about weakened Phase Beings whose soul ranks have been downgraded to human level, because an Angel-level being cannot exist on the Surface of the Four Worlds, due to the level of purity. In short, the Phase Beings must have enough energy to destroy the world.

That was the case with OT angels, but NT21 Archangels aren't even implied to have been weakened.

Also, Lilith was existing in the Surface, even if her situation is technically atypical, it proves that the problem is on getting a higher soul to come to the Surface, rather than it being inherently unable to exist on it like you're implying.

Btw, Level 6 is not a SYSTEM, but only the beginning of beginnings.

Got it, I was more referring to who could fight a MG head on, I'd say a LV6 could but thanks for the info about System.

 

[XDragnoir]

I assume most things related to Alice will get exposed in GT10. She seems to be more haxed than we could've thought, but nothing substantial yet.

Agreed, I hope we get a better explanation of the Executioner and I really want to see the Kamachi version of the Cheshire Cat, a cat loli? A bizarre, nearly eldritch cat? I just want to see it and its powers.

All because Kamachi reused so little magics from the past volumes in GT9, we have no way to powerscale.
Unless we headcanon something like Dragon King Touma >= full power MGs or at least >= nerfed MGs, there's simply no reference point.
If we took >= nerfed MGs just to be safe, there'll be hilarious consequence such like

CRC will probably be a mix of Aleister and Mikoto on how we format his stats, there's a 80% he will be 6B to 5B with most spells IMO, doubt anything will be higher or lower than that.

 

[ToaruCounterfeitCRC]

And Fiamma is comparable to the Second Adam who saved the Tree of Sephiroth from external attack[?].

“…Why?” Fiamma muttered. “I could not do it. I should have had the power needed to save this world just like the Son of God. And yet I could not do it.”

He admits he could not do it though. What he thinks he has could be far from the ground truth itself.

Being in a human body Coronzon becomes weaker. She can't use most of her powers, due to the lack of purity in the Surface in the human world, and is forced to use human magic, and because of the strongest attacks, her body is unable to move. For her to use the human body is like torture.

That's not true. She claims the cage of flesh allows her soul to be stabilized and command energy similar to but in essence different from Telesma.
She uses all kinds of superior enochian magic in the surface world without problem, too.

NT20 also talks about Gabriel being able to destroy the world.

I believe it was NT21. Moreover, it appears clear the word "world" was referring to something as small as Earth given the context.

And we're talking about weakened Phase Beings whose soul ranks have been downgraded to human level, because an Angel-level being cannot exist on the Surface of the Four Worlds, due to the level of purity. In short, the Phase Beings must have enough energy to destroy the world.

Too much inference and too little substance. I am more inclined to believe that Dainsleif can do High 1-C attack because it literally destroys the wall of phases and pour the energy stored in those phases to the world. Shaping the energy in forms of gods of destruction, is like, the magic behind Dainsleif; rather than the man-made gods in those phases themselves can do that.

I will only answer again because it's really annoying to see lots of claims that I disagree with and claims that... I'd like to see the source.
...

The source mostly disapproves what the claims are. Especially if it is insisted that Phase beings are in themselves superior, they cannot be, as reinforced by Kamachi in numerous occasions. Best you can argue is that the phase energy blocks are not the real gods to begin with, which has a few contradictory statement but those are always subjective comments.

 

[Churronzon]

Think we should just leave the characters at unknown tier unless we get more concrete stuff. (we won't)
Our justifications with our tiers go so hard.
Unknown with Rota spell (Draws power from beyond the tree and split apart the Dragon King)
Better tier than High 1-C

High 1-C Aleister gets too scared to fight upon seeing two 5-Bs exchanging attacks.

More like someone who fought all of True Gremlin at once can't intervene in a fight between wall levels lmao.

 

[XDragnoir]

Think we should just leave the characters at unknown tier unless we get more concrete stuff. (we won't)
Our justifications with our tiers go so hard.
Unknown with Rota spell (Draws power from beyond the tree and split apart the Dragon King)
Better tier than High 1-C

Ehhhh, I'd rather go with something like a Far higher or whatever rather than Unknown, but yeah, anything is better than H1C for Rota as it is never stated to be anything even close to that tier.

Damn Kamachi, why didn't say it was stronger than the MGs or anything like that?

 

[Churronzon]

Damn Kamachi, why didn't say it was stronger than the MGs or anything like that?

It doesn't need to be said.

But fr I'm prob the only mf not bothered by this situation for any GT character

 

[MeidoIzayoi]

OT and NT character profiles needs to get updated before moving on to GT

 

[Jozaysmith?]

Those could also be interpreted as feats for Accelerators air manipulation. At that point in time, he was reasonably experienced at controlling air.

DT why do i feel like your pfp is blinking at me anytime i look away

 

[MeidoIzayoi]

​

 

[Bastolan27]

He's been offsite for years; he should be banned since he only came back to troll.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

OT and NT character profiles needs to get updated before moving on to GT

I'm planning to do another CRT to fix up Rensa and Kuroyoru's profiles after the Accel CRT is done or near completion, if it helps ya' know. Almost complete on writing my sandbox for what is going to change on Accel's profile as well, and will post it on my Accel thread once I gathered enough scans and references.

 

[Deceived3596]

Sonic fans smdh

 

[MeidoIzayoi]

I'm planning to do another CRT to fix up Rensa and Kuroyoru's profiles after the Accel CRT is done or near completion, if it helps ya' know. Almost complete on writing my sandbox for what is going to change on Accel's profile as well, and will post it on my Accel thread once I gathered enough scans and references.

I have 2 suggestions for Accel
transformation for his post-awakening key and addition of standard tactic of being in a state of bloodlust with his Black Wings
kind of like this

Standard Tactics: Enters a bloodlusted state with Black Wings

 

[Zensum]

DT why do i feel like your pfp is blinking at me anytime i look away

I thought this was just me. Glad to know I'm not crazy tbh

OT:
Yea, the issue with Spell of ROTA is that there's no direct power comparison like what Magick:Flaming_Sword got when introduced. It is the only attack in the fight that injured Dragon King... However Dragon King also has no direct power/durability statement besides it being a reasonable assumption to say it's superior to the previous Dragon manifestations...
The only logic we have is saying ROTA > Flaming_Sword because the chant shows its power is drawn from beyond the tree, which would either net us an Unknown or an At least High 1-C. Otherwise it's another for the 5-B+~ scaling chain.

 

[XDragnoir]

He's been offsite for years; he should be banned since he only came back to troll.

Who?

Also, a Initial D fan?

.

Why are you and Arc on a Toaru thread? Finally noticed how it's peak fiction?

The only logic we have is saying ROTA > Flaming_Sword because the chant shows its power is drawn from beyond the tree, which would either net us an Unknown or an At least High 1-C

I'd say we can use that logic to get a possibly H1C and that's it, a solid rating seems really unlikely.

 

[Bastolan27]

Who?

Someone posted something disgusting and misogynistic, but he was banned, and the post was deleted.

Also, a Initial D fan?

Initial D is peak fiction; it's the first anime I ever watched. Are you a fan?

 

[XDragnoir]

Initial D is peak fiction; it's the first anime I ever watched. Are you a fan?

I wouldn't say a fan, I remember watching up to 3rd Stage and maybe the start of 4th, but the first season is definitely peak and the soundtrack as well.

 

[Bastolan27]

I wouldn't say a fan, I remember watching up to 3rd Stage and maybe the start of 4th, but the first season is definitely peak and the soundtrack as well.

Eurobeat is definitely the best type of soundtrack. Stages 4, 5, and 6/Final Stage are worth watching; some of my favorite moments happen in those stages. The ending is peak too. You should give it another try.

 

[XDragnoir]

@Piamma @MrOMG @Churronzon and anyone else who also has put some thought on Toaru's Cosmology:

Where do you particularly place PW Accel in the great scheme of things?

Edit: By that I mean where you place him in relation to other characters such as Magic Gods or True Form Coronzon and in relation to things like the Sephiroth and the Phases.

 

[Churronzon]

My headcanon is that Accelerator’s AIM-like spear would kill Zombie nerf MGs without needing plat wings. He’d still die to phase manip though.

Plat wings itself is a huge unknown; I do wonder if Aiwass still stacks up higher still.

 

[XDragnoir]

is that Accelerator’s AIM-like spear would kill Zombie nerf MGs without needing plat wings. He’d still die to phase manip though.

Okay but why exactly? I am more interested in the reasons behind the views y'all have.

 

[ToaruCounterfeitCRC]

Where do you particularly place PW Accel in the great scheme of things?
Edit: By that I mean where you place him in relation to other characters such as Magic Gods or True Form Coronzon and in relation to things like the Sephiroth and the Phases.

I stumbled across DT's concluding arguments concerning the issues with R>F transcendence in the On the Many... thread. I think his introductory descriptions mirror closely with what the Toaru verse actually portrays.

Transitioning from n to n+1 dimensions doesn't imbue a space with soul-like qualities; it remains physical. Increasing your physical size alone will never make you capable of interacting with souls. There is no continuous gap between physical space and spiritual planes. Spiritual planes of existence / souls are not made up of any number of physical things.

Magic Gods or Phase Manipulation in general are still using magic as a mean to interact with the surface world. Given how phases has been described since OT4, they are still corporeal entities in a magical sense. The Tree of Sephiroth, on the other hand, discerns predominantly a spiritual hierarchy. Coronzon's realness proves that the tree is a spiritual plane of existence, and one may assume there's no continuous gap between the higher sephirah and the surface world.

So would a spiritual plane have superiority to spaces of all size and be a qualitative superiority? Would a spiritual plane inferior to the physical universe be lower than all dimensions? No, that would be far-fetched.

And such is exactly the case here within Toaru verse. So far, there has been zero text suggesting that a being spiritually transcending the surface world be nigh-omnipotent within it. Conversely, there has been zero evidence that spiritual existence relies upon (and thus is inferior to) the existence of the material world.

[A] need to show a power relationship over lower realms to gain R>F transcendence. He says that "they are functionally more analogous in nature to Durability, since, as said, Reality-Fiction Transcendence is entirely about "What others can't do to you," rather than "What you can do to others." It's just that this unassailable nature derives from something analogous to "size" in the character."

This part reflects exactly how Kamachi describes through Index that nothing within the toy box is able to form a peer with Coronzon:

“That isn’t what I mean, Touma. Even if you still had your right hand’s power, that is still something inside the toy box of the world. That does not match Coronzon who is viewing it all from a step removed.” "...I do not think the Magic Gods we have seen would form a clean pair with Great Demon Coronzon. The Divine Mixtures rely on Egyptian and Greek mythology, so they are out for the same reason. They would have some power, but not enough for a direct conflict.”

Plat-wing Accel smashed this hierarchical transcendence by getting himself appointed to the same level in terms of the plane of existence.

"...I shall become the guide of this young tree. Rejection of the Abyss, leave us as I become one with my chosen master and cross that line.
We shall arrive beyond Keter! We need not fear the unknown territory that is no more than a series of zeroes!!"

Since she would prevent any human from fully ascending the Sephiroth, no human could defeat Coronzon by purifying their soul in the normal methods. And you could not reach that divine territory by using the Qliphoth. But that other tree was different. If the Sephiroth and Qliphoth were not an option, you only had to create a new tree. You only had to apply power from outside the tree to drive the Great Demon from the Abyss like a game of curling.

His appointor is the Will of Misaka Network.

"Hurry up and get it over with /return. Misaka wants to smugly strike backagainst that person who obliterated Kamijou-chan as much as you do /return. And that’s well worth temporarily lending you some power /return.”

This places him superior to True Form Coronzon, since he essentially has the whole tree supporting his action.
We can infer Plat-wing Accel is approaching the ceiling of Ungrund which Aliester is convinced that Anna Sprengel has crossed.

“Someone who has crossed the Ungrund has appeared. ... This is something I failed to predict even with the Aeon of Horus. If that woman is not yet another cloud or fraud, then..."

Of course we still know practically nothing about the true nature of the Ungrund. Regardless, Plat-wing Accel is way above even tMGs concerning the cosmology.

He’d still die to phase manip though.

Yeah. Unless he somehow analyzes the influence excerted on him by phase through some sorts of higher vector manip he has no way of defending himself against it.

 

[Aseka]

Does Stigmata on Aleister is the same as Saint's?

 

[ToaruCounterfeitCRC]

Does Stigmata on Aleister is the same as Saint's?

Yes. It was stated be the proof of a Saint.

To my understanding, Aleister is on a higher level of synchronization with the Son of God than any other saint we've seen so far. Synchronization is probably what Tsuchimikado means when talking about unleashing the Stigmata in OT4. His body physically bursts and spills out blood, which certainly does not happen when Kanzaki or Acqua activates their saintly power.

 

[Aseka]

Yes. It was stated be the proof of a Saint.

To my understanding, Aleister is on a higher level of synchronization with the Son of God than any other saint we've seen so far. Synchronization is probably what Tsuchimikado means when talking about unleashing the Stigmata in OT4. His body physically bursts and spills out blood, which certainly does not happen when Kanzaki or Acqua activates their saintly power.

So because his Synchronization is on a higher level than any Saints, we can't scale them to Aleister's planet level?

His body bursting is effect of him not being a Saint but forcing a Stigmata on himself, right?

 

[ToaruCounterfeitCRC]

So because his Synchronization is on a higher level than any Saints, we can't scale them to Aleister's planet level?

That's what I think. I mean he's literally becoming a pure white mass of light as if Jesus showing himself to Paul described in the actual NT.

His body bursting is effect of him not being a Saint but forcing a Stigmata on himself, right?

I dunno. It might be as well caused by him syncing with tSoG on such a high level. It's stated that INRI sync done by Mathers is not enough to attract a Stigmata.
Maybe it is simply the side effect of Aleister forcing Stigmata; maybe he's gone one step further than other saints.

 

[XDragnoir]

So because his Synchronization is on a higher level than any Saints, we can't scale them to Aleister's planet level?

Why would we scale them to planet level?

 

[Churronzon]

Did Kanzaki block Curtana’s dimension severing with Yuisen or Nanasen?
The scan I linked on the profile says Nanasen, but the profile says Yuisen.
Is there a different scan saying it was Yuisen?

 

[XDragnoir]

Did Kanzaki block Curtana’s dimension severing with Yuisen or Nanasen?
The scan I linked on the profile says Nanasen, but the profile says Yuisen.
Is there a different scan saying it was Yuisen?

"Two attacks that can slice anything" is talking about Dimensional Severing and Yuisen, Nanasen doesn't have any special cutting property.

 

[XDragnoir]

.

Btw, why Mathers profile doesn't list he doesn't have a soul/life force in his Grimoire key? Didn't you do a CRT for that months ago?

 

[GunTish]

Did Kanzaki block Curtana’s dimension severing with Yuisen or Nanasen?
The scan I linked on the profile says Nanasen, but the profile says Yuisen.
Is there a different scan saying it was Yuisen?

Kanzaki used Nanasen, but Carissa rushed past it, forcing Kanzaki to block with her sword. Yuisen was not directly mentioned, but it's a reasonable assumption considering Carissa's comment right after.

 

[Churronzon]

Btw, why Mathers profile doesn't list he doesn't have a soul/life force in his Grimoire key? Didn't you do a CRT for that months ago?

Qaws wanted more proof on Coronzon having lifeforce destruction and something similar to those who are immune to it IIRC.

 

[Aseka]

Why would we scale them to planet level?

Because Aleister's Synchronization with Son of God is like the Saints? Having the Son of God bodily characteristics.

 

[XDragnoir]

Because Aleister's Synchronization with Son of God is like the Saints? Having the Son of God bodily characteristics.

That's really weak reasoning, having the same power source doesn't mean having the same power level.

Also, he quite literally was fighting Saint level people way before he used the SoG spell to strengthen himself further.

 

[XDragnoir]

Snip.

I've to say I agree with 99% of your view.

As you pointed out, the spiritual hierarchy doesn't make one omnipotent over the lower layers, but I think it still makes you outside their influence (most of the time at least) and gives some level of power over the lower ranks.

As we saw with Coronzon, her True Form could control the rank of even the Magic Gods but it can't do much more than that from that "position" in the hierarchy.

 

[Churronzon]

As we saw with Coronzon, her True Form could control the rank of even the Magic Gods

I don't know what this is referring to

---

What would the upper cap for the range of Aleister's Blasting Rod and Spiritual Tripping be listed as?

Gouranga thinks the angel dragon is alive, would that work for possibly type 4 immortality?

 

[Agnaa]

Can anyone verify whether these recent changes to Kamijou Touma are legit? I don't think it's the sorta thing that really needs a CRT, so I'd usually just evaluate it myself, but the scans add up to dozens of pages of text in the 22nd novel of a series I've never read, so I'd rather leave it to someone more knowledgeable.

 

[XDragnoir]

I don't know what this is referring to

They couldn't cross the abyss, that happens because Coronzon doesn't allow them to cross it.

What would the upper cap for the range of Aleister's Blasting Rod and Spiritual Tripping be listed as?

ST is universal with the BBB, not sure what about BR but it should at the very least have the same range as ST with enough stacking.

 

[Aseka]

ST is universal with the BBB, not sure what about BR but it should at the very least have the same range as ST with enough stacking.

What about his range of flintlocks or other number of that spell?