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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

VeryGoofyToddler said:
I would say let's agree to disagree but let's just disagree.
Click to expand...
"But" implies a contradiction, and "probably" implies uncertainty.

3812 would probably keep his current tier, but there's that comparison between dimensions and narrative.

I think that pretty clearly implies that the comparison between dimensions and narratives has a chance of downgrading it, which isn't the case, due to the way it's made.
 
I agree with Agnaa. Initially, I was just trying to point out that you were going in on the nuances. However, my point still stays firm since I believe that it was their intention.

Anyways…..Ultima I got a suggestion for the Seekers Cosmology. For the profile “God” let's make two keys: The Magician and the Primal Ocean. Since the Magician is God within his own dream and in a sort of limited state but defines the entirety of the Dream at the same time. Thus Maya would be High 1-A, the Magician High 1-A+, and the Primal Ocean 0.
 
This is a very random question, but I've heard claims that true "Oneness" with the Force in Star Wars's Legends continuity can qualify for Tier 0 by this new Tiering System. Is that true?
 
I would honestly like to know everyones opinion on which Objects, Characters and verses that would be affected by the new tiering system. Also please include how and why they will be affected.
 
Hey, I have some questions regarding how a verse's cosmology would be rated under the new tiering system.
So, the entire cosmology is essentially formless, where nothing exists, including the god who created the world.
Then human begins creating "forms" for the world, basically giving it a temporary existence that is called "a shadow of the world". They create their own stories(universes) and start wandering into an infinite abyss of magic, which consists of multiple higher forms of the universe, where the lower form is treated as a shadow of the higher form.
神はただ在るだけだ。転がっているだけだ。曖味に蠢く漠然とした塊だ。

意味は無い。かたちも無い。そこには何にも無い。零と無限の狭間に虚無が広がるだけた。

だから世界に何かがあるのだとしたら…何かがあるように観えているのなら、それはヒトが勝手に思い込んでいるだけだ。ヒトの矮小な器にねじ込んだ神の像を、歪んだ影として映し出しているだけだ。

世界を観るものが、世界にかたちを与え、自分勝手な物語を紡ぎ出す。
“The god is just there. They are simply roiling over. An indistinct yet vague mass that’s crawling.
There’s no meaning in them. Nor there’s a shape from them. There’s nothing in them. They are nothing but a void spreading between zero and infinity.
Hence, assuming if there was something that exists in the world… If there was something that looked like it exists in the world, then it was simply the human’s own imagination. It is simply the image of the god projected as a distorted shadow that screwed into the infinitesimal vessel of humans.
Those that viewed the world also bestow the form to the world and spin out the stories at their own will.”
祈りこそが、顔もかたちも無いものに姿を見い出す。かたちを得てしまった神は、その無貌に穿たられたふたつの穴で世界を見つめている。ねじれて歪みきった己の影(セカイ)を。
Prayer is what finds form in things that have no face or form. God, who has taken on a form, gazes at the world through two holes drilled into his faceless body. My own shadow (world) that has been twisted and distorted.Yes, God and humans dream the same dream.The dreams I had were empty. I was just rocking around for no reason and falling asleep. But the scenery I see now is full of dazzling colors.Just as people connect shining stars to view myths, I also connect the colors (pieces) of dreams to view romance.So let's tell a story. My dreams, my distortions, what I want.

OP: "Furthermore, concerning this question, what kind of being are the gods in your works? Are they physical gods or conceptual gods? I would like hear your opinion."
Jin Haganeya: "This is because humans are never able to perceive the true form of the gods, they merely see a god in different forms as illusions according to an individual's sense, mind and soul. Hence, it might a bit similar to the Theory of Forms."
My crumbling ego dissipates into the universe, spreading thin.
My melting heart spills into the universe, mixing up.
Ironically enough, it's a world beyond the human vessel.
The domain of gods I had so stupidly and naively coveted.
"That's right. This is a world you will eventually arrive at. A world you must arrive at. This is its entrance. The entrance to the abyss…… The scar in your soul."
"The rift carved into your heart the day you met the Other, born in Dunwich, at Miskatonic University."
"Beyond that lies a vast abyss. Darkness overflows from therein."
"Now, gaze into the abyss once more. Look closely into the darkness."
"You should be able to see it now. The form of the universe you must arrive at."
Clad in his black bodysuit----Magius Style, Al perches on Kurou's shoulder as she stares at him in disbelief.
Kurou merely stands silently among everyone else.
While in his faintly enlightened eyes reflecting a far higher world, a far deeper universe.
----Not yet.
My consciousness is still in the darkness.
Have I been captured by the nightmare again?
"No…… You bravely faced the nightmare, and won. There is no reason to fear the Dunwich Horror any longer."
I can hear someone's voice murmurs inside my heart.
Who is it? Who are you talking to me----.
Put my questioning thoughts aside, I instinctively weave a spell.
Even though I have no idea…… what this kind of spell is.
"You peered through those memories didn't you? An even deeper abyss of magic. A realm of higher still. I supposed you can use them right now."
The spell is completed, protecting us from all incoming harm.
It's a very beautiful and powerful spell, that enough to mystify even myself. This spell…… What kind of power is it?
"This is the true law of the gods. The final lost fragment of [Al Azif]. I will return it to you now. With this you will be completed."


My existence diffusing into infinity and dissolving into the world.
To that, my consciousness became infinitely perceptive and can sense all things in the world.
I was always confined into this sensation whenever I move between worlds (laws).
I am now reside in the fluctuating gap of reality and non-reality.
This is an act that reaches close to the abyss of magic, thus, also a dangerous act that causes one to lose their very self.
When you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes back to you----the moment you were devoured by the gigantic vortex of "Information", you will naturally lose such as the spirit (heart) of a human to oblivion.
Weaving numerous layers of protection on my ego, my heart swiftly moves, on the torrent that heads to the center of the cosmos, on the stream coming from the center of the world and the chaotic flow of magic particles Azathoth between them.
At the middle of the great flows, we, as magicians of time and space (traveler), are omnipotent and omniscient.
However my infinite power does not remain in my soul's vessel even for a moment, rather it's only goes through nothingness.
That's right.
An absolute nothingness.
Even a being like Deus Machina which is modeled after the god has its own higher form existing on a higher plane and their physical form on the material world is but a reflection of their higher existence.
And there's more---on the shimmering deck like heat haze, Deus Machina Ambrose showed its solid existence. No, the machine that once looked like an ordinary airplane now looked like a mass of super logic with overwhelming density, sometimes it was perfect in order, but sometimes it wriggled chaotically. In other words, the body of steel that materialized itself in the normal space, was only a shallow part of its existence, just like the ripples caused by fishes on the water surface.
(So this is…… The so-called true essence of Deus Machina!!)
It is still being [nonexistent].
The wavering shadow remains in between real existence and non-existence.
For it is nothing but a vast and mighty magic power dwells inside the shadow flooding over the Material Side (Reality Side) and scorches Zs-awia. The shadow is just a projection of its power.
In another words, the more human gaze into the abyss/the more they tread into the abyss, the "realer" , "more perfect" form of the universe they will be able to perceive.
So, the idea is no matter how many times humans create and bestow "a form" to the world, they will never be able to grasp the true essence of the god and the universe, which exists far beyond the infinite abyss. Hence the god's existence is apophatically beyond every extension of the form of the world. Will this be at least 1-A under the new tiering system?
Also, if there are multiple "infinite abysses" shown in the work, meaning there is a hierarchy of gods, where the lower god is also viewed as a shadow of another higher god, will the entire hierarchy of gods be rated as High 1-A or higher?
Btw, I would greatly appreciate it if Ultima could respond to this question since he was involved in this verse in the past.
 
ZwartD said:
Hey, I have some questions regarding how a verse's cosmology would be rated under the new tiering system.
So, the entire cosmology is essentially formless, where nothing exists, including the god who created the world.
Then human begins creating "forms" for the world, basically giving it a temporary existence that is called "a shadow of the world". They create their own stories(universes) and start wandering into an infinite abyss of magic, which consists of multiple higher forms of the universe, where the lower form is treated as a shadow of the higher form.
神はただ在るだけだ。転がっているだけだ。曖味に蠢く漠然とした塊だ。

意味は無い。かたちも無い。そこには何にも無い。零と無限の狭間に虚無が広がるだけた。

だから世界に何かがあるのだとしたら…何かがあるように観えているのなら、それはヒトが勝手に思い込んでいるだけだ。ヒトの矮小な器にねじ込んだ神の像を、歪んだ影として映し出しているだけだ。

世界を観るものが、世界にかたちを与え、自分勝手な物語を紡ぎ出す。
“The god is just there. They are simply roiling over. An indistinct yet vague mass that’s crawling.
There’s no meaning in them. Nor there’s a shape from them. There’s nothing in them. They are nothing but a void spreading between zero and infinity.
Hence, assuming if there was something that exists in the world… If there was something that looked like it exists in the world, then it was simply the human’s own imagination. It is simply the image of the god projected as a distorted shadow that screwed into the infinitesimal vessel of humans.
Those that viewed the world also bestow the form to the world and spin out the stories at their own will.”
祈りこそが、顔もかたちも無いものに姿を見い出す。かたちを得てしまった神は、その無貌に穿たられたふたつの穴で世界を見つめている。ねじれて歪みきった己の影(セカイ)を。
Prayer is what finds form in things that have no face or form. God, who has taken on a form, gazes at the world through two holes drilled into his faceless body. My own shadow (world) that has been twisted and distorted.Yes, God and humans dream the same dream.The dreams I had were empty. I was just rocking around for no reason and falling asleep. But the scenery I see now is full of dazzling colors.Just as people connect shining stars to view myths, I also connect the colors (pieces) of dreams to view romance.So let's tell a story. My dreams, my distortions, what I want.

OP: "Furthermore, concerning this question, what kind of being are the gods in your works? Are they physical gods or conceptual gods? I would like hear your opinion."
Jin Haganeya: "This is because humans are never able to perceive the true form of the gods, they merely see a god in different forms as illusions according to an individual's sense, mind and soul. Hence, it might a bit similar to the Theory of Forms."
My crumbling ego dissipates into the universe, spreading thin.
My melting heart spills into the universe, mixing up.
Ironically enough, it's a world beyond the human vessel.
The domain of gods I had so stupidly and naively coveted.
"That's right. This is a world you will eventually arrive at. A world you must arrive at. This is its entrance. The entrance to the abyss…… The scar in your soul."
"The rift carved into your heart the day you met the Other, born in Dunwich, at Miskatonic University."
"Beyond that lies a vast abyss. Darkness overflows from therein."
"Now, gaze into the abyss once more. Look closely into the darkness."
"You should be able to see it now. The form of the universe you must arrive at."
Clad in his black bodysuit----Magius Style, Al perches on Kurou's shoulder as she stares at him in disbelief.
Kurou merely stands silently among everyone else.
While in his faintly enlightened eyes reflecting a far higher world, a far deeper universe.
----Not yet.
My consciousness is still in the darkness.
Have I been captured by the nightmare again?
"No…… You bravely faced the nightmare, and won. There is no reason to fear the Dunwich Horror any longer."
I can hear someone's voice murmurs inside my heart.
Who is it? Who are you talking to me----.
Put my questioning thoughts aside, I instinctively weave a spell.
Even though I have no idea…… what this kind of spell is.
"You peered through those memories didn't you? An even deeper abyss of magic. A realm of higher still. I supposed you can use them right now."
The spell is completed, protecting us from all incoming harm.
It's a very beautiful and powerful spell, that enough to mystify even myself. This spell…… What kind of power is it?
"This is the true law of the gods. The final lost fragment of [Al Azif]. I will return it to you now. With this you will be completed."


My existence diffusing into infinity and dissolving into the world.
To that, my consciousness became infinitely perceptive and can sense all things in the world.
I was always confined into this sensation whenever I move between worlds (laws).
I am now reside in the fluctuating gap of reality and non-reality.
This is an act that reaches close to the abyss of magic, thus, also a dangerous act that causes one to lose their very self.
When you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes back to you----the moment you were devoured by the gigantic vortex of "Information", you will naturally lose such as the spirit (heart) of a human to oblivion.
Weaving numerous layers of protection on my ego, my heart swiftly moves, on the torrent that heads to the center of the cosmos, on the stream coming from the center of the world and the chaotic flow of magic particles Azathoth between them.
At the middle of the great flows, we, as magicians of time and space (traveler), are omnipotent and omniscient.
However my infinite power does not remain in my soul's vessel even for a moment, rather it's only goes through nothingness.
That's right.
An absolute nothingness.
Even a being like Deus Machina which is modeled after the god has its own higher form existing on a higher plane and their physical form on the material world is but a reflection of their higher existence.
And there's more---on the shimmering deck like heat haze, Deus Machina Ambrose showed its solid existence. No, the machine that once looked like an ordinary airplane now looked like a mass of super logic with overwhelming density, sometimes it was perfect in order, but sometimes it wriggled chaotically. In other words, the body of steel that materialized itself in the normal space, was only a shallow part of its existence, just like the ripples caused by fishes on the water surface.
(So this is…… The so-called true essence of Deus Machina!!)
It is still being [nonexistent].
The wavering shadow remains in between real existence and non-existence.
For it is nothing but a vast and mighty magic power dwells inside the shadow flooding over the Material Side (Reality Side) and scorches Zs-awia. The shadow is just a projection of its power.
In another words, the more human gaze into the abyss/the more they tread into the abyss, the "realer" , "more perfect" form of the universe they will be able to perceive.
So, the idea is no matter how many times humans create and bestow "a form" to the world, they will never be able to grasp the true essence of the god and the universe, which exists far beyond the infinite abyss. Hence the god's existence is apophatically beyond every extension of the form of the world. Will this be at least 1-A under the new tiering system?
Also, if there are multiple "infinite abysses" shown in the work, meaning there is a hierarchy of gods, where the lower god is also viewed as a shadow of another higher god, will the entire hierarchy of gods be rated as High 1-A or higher?
Btw, I would greatly appreciate it if Ultima could respond to this question since he was involved in this verse in the past.
Click to expand...
demonband？
 
vsbattles.com

Tiering System Revisions: Tier 0

Hi all. So, a bit ago, I made this thread. It got accepted, and the result of it was the discarding of the previous purely mathematical basis for tiers Low 1-A and above. These tiers, then, were changed to the following: Here, you can see a fairly clear progression on how the Tiering System...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

It's live.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
vsbattles.com

Tiering System Revisions: Tier 0

Hi all. So, a bit ago, I made this thread. It got accepted, and the result of it was the discarding of the previous purely mathematical basis for tiers Low 1-A and above. These tiers, then, were changed to the following: Here, you can see a fairly clear progression on how the Tiering System...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

It's live.
Click to expand...
Ultima any thoughts on this for one of the Cosmology, you mentioned?

Anyways…..Ultima I got a suggestion for the Seekers Cosmology. For the profile “God” let's make two keys: The Magician and the Primal Ocean. Since the Magician is God within his own dream and in a sort of limited state but defines the entirety of the Dream at the same time. Thus Maya would be High 1-A, the Magician High 1-A+, and the Primal Ocean 0.
Click to expand...
 
Ultima_Reality said:
vsbattles.com

Tiering System Revisions: Tier 0

Hi all. So, a bit ago, I made this thread. It got accepted, and the result of it was the discarding of the previous purely mathematical basis for tiers Low 1-A and above. These tiers, then, were changed to the following: Here, you can see a fairly clear progression on how the Tiering System...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

It's live.
Click to expand...
Tier 0 Nasuverse LESSSGOOOOO
 
If they have an even somewhat accurate description for a Monad, they should at least have sufficient evidence for having a qualitative ontological superiority over the rest of the verse.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
vsbattles.com

Tiering System Revisions: Tier 0

Hi all. So, a bit ago, I made this thread. It got accepted, and the result of it was the discarding of the previous purely mathematical basis for tiers Low 1-A and above. These tiers, then, were changed to the following: Here, you can see a fairly clear progression on how the Tiering System...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

It's live.
Click to expand...
Finally the Tier actually lives up to its name. Boundless/Tier 0 will actually have characters that are Boundless.
 
Depends how barebones and accurate their description of being a Monad is. Chances are if it's somewhat close it's at least 1-A, but if your just going to name drop Monad without proper justification or something then there is no inherit tiering for such a thing.
 
If the Monad-like entity is identified by lacking any and all restrictions to its being (life, death, identity, etc.), and ascension to it is by one shading away restrictions to their being until becoming one with the Monad-like, would it be viewed as an anti-feat?
 
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
So I didn't see this in the thread, but does this mean beyond High 1-A, all High 1-A+ and Tier 0 Characters will be equal, even if from different verses?
Click to expand...
All High 1-A+ would be equal to one another and all Tier 0's would be equal to each other by their natures. Yes.
 
Everything12 said:
Depends how barebones and accurate their description of being a Monad is. Chances are if it's somewhat close it's at least 1-A, but if your just going to name drop Monad without proper justification or something then there is no inherit tiering for such a thing.
Click to expand...
Let's say the being is all there is, the singular point of all oneness, the point in which all that exists came from, perfection incarnate, created the world (which the concept of higher dimensions exist), but because it love one of its creations more than the others the system it had created to manage the world, that is, including himself(although if it really wanted, the system wouldn't be able a to do anything to it) took away his power as god. What would that qualify for?
 
ZwartD said:
Btw can you reply to my question?
Click to expand...
I'll reply later.

Ovy7 said:
If the Monad-like entity is identified by lacking any and all restrictions to its being (life, death, identity, etc.), and ascension to it is by one shading away restrictions to their being until becoming one with the Monad-like, would it be viewed as an anti-feat?
Click to expand...
Not really, since that just implies everything is already one with the entity at the core. It'd be an anti-feat if the two were separate substances that literally fused together, or something like that.
 
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