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MoP solos MonadsNot really but I find it funny that the Monarch of Pointland would qualify if the rest of his verse didn't exist.
Well not really but it's funny how close he is to being a monad.
So anyone got candidates for Ultima's tier 0
I got a few but most of them fail one requirement or the other
Other than Unsong's Atzmus I guess
Seems like a strong candidate yesShiva (Devo ke Dev Mahadev)
Shiva (also called Mahadev) is a character from a TV show called Devo ke Dev Mahadev whose plot revolves around the life of Hindu God Lord Shiva. Mahadev is described as the Supreme deity of whole existence with everything just being a part of him. He can be perceived in infinite forms and...vsbattles.fandom.com
I'm currently working on counterarguments in preparation for the oncoming storm. There's some space-time stuff in there that I think might qualify it even still, like The Animator in the higher layer not being affected by time completely stopping in the cartoon world and the computer crash, and all of the Pinky and the Brain multiverse/timelines stuff. Problem is, I'm not exactly the smartest when it comes to these, so it's going to ultimately come down to throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. If I'm going down, I'm going down fighting.One thing I'm particularly curious about is whether or not cosmology wiping feats would be considered anti-feats. A character who simply exits their reality and starts fucking around in higher layers a la Bugs Bunny wouldn't qualify based on what I've been hearing, but does that extend to characters who have enough range and power to destroy everything in one go? What about for characters who don't necessarily occupy the higher reality, but were shown to have created everything (including the higher reality) at the beginning of existence... and what about those who don't have those feats, but scale to those who do?
This extends to things like concept manipulation, as there may be cases where characters from lower realities can manipulate abstractions that make up and govern reality on all layers. Would this also be an anti-feat?
My best guesses:So anyone got candidates for Ultima's tier 0
I got a few but most of them fail one requirement or the other
Other than Unsong's Atzmus I guess
So, negative theology scaling is back on the table? I can do something really funny if that's the case, but I don't think I should.My best guesses:
- Self-Reference Engine - Negative theology, lacks all aspects, fully nonexistent. Fulfills all Tier 0 standards.
- Swirl of the Root - Negative theology, lacks all aspects - transcends all dualities. Apparently fulfills all Tier 0 standards? IIRC Ultima also brought up Fate when discussing examples of apophatic theology stuffs.
- Jehovah - Negative theology, lacks all aspects, transcends all dualities. Probably fulfills all Tier 0 standards.
- Amaranth - Indivisible, indescribable, devoid of all dualities, etc.
Yeah, that's about all I can think of. Most of these are already Tier 0, lol.
There's probably a few others I'm not familiar with.
Perhaps some of the china verses like Dragon Talisman may also qualify. Lots of perfected trandualities n lacking of aspects.
Though, by virtue of china verse, it has a lot of hierarchies and people ascending to that level of existence, so it may not qualify. Unless ascension via shedding aspects of being is a way of bypassing that Tier 0 guideline.
I don’t think you should either.So, negative theology scaling is back on the table? I can do something really funny if that's the case, but I don't think I should.
I need swirl of the root to be tier 0 so we can have the biggest glass cannons on the wiki LMAOMy best guesses:
- Self-Reference Engine - Negative theology, lacks all aspects, fully nonexistent. Fulfills all Tier 0 standards.
- Swirl of the Root - Negative theology, lacks all aspects - transcends all dualities. Apparently fulfills all Tier 0 standards? IIRC Ultima also brought up Fate when discussing examples of apophatic theology stuffs.
- Jehovah - Negative theology, lacks all aspects, transcends all dualities. Probably fulfills all Tier 0 standards.
- Amaranth - Indivisible, indescribable, devoid of all dualities, etc.
Potentially, I think, at least.So, negative theology scaling is back on the table? I can do something really funny if that's the case, but I don't think I should.
Tier 0 is not about "adding" something to a character, but rather about removing things from it (In this case, composition and differentiation), which is to say that absoluteness wouldn't really be gotten through obtaining more qualities (Or increasing the degree of those qualities) but rather by abandoning this whole framework altogether.
I feel like some chinese verse could get upgraded to absurd length depending on if a character can, somehow, achieve a state similar to the Dao itself. Given that the explanation of said Dao is accurate and well-explained by the author, obviously, but also if Ultima would even consider such a case as "valid".Which is pretty much exactly what Negative Theology is... a method of explaining some absolute entity by negating its existence within our logic, inferring that they are beyond our comprehension in the most literal sense.
Yeah, I did a bit more reading into it, and it seems like I might have a pretty solid case for tier 0 after all. Like, to the point where I think the evidence at hand is the textbook definition of tier 0 under Ultima's new system. There aren't even any anti-feats I'd have to cope my way out of, like with 1-A/High 1-A.Potentially, I think, at least.
Ultima's Tier 0 seems to be a lacking of all qualities via transcending them. Which is pretty much exactly what Negative Theology is... a method of explaining some absolute entity by negating its existence within our logic, inferring that they are beyond our comprehension in the most literal sense.
shiki tohno negsYeah, I did a bit more reading into it, and it seems like I might have a pretty solid case for tier 0 after all. Like, to the point where I think the evidence at hand is the textbook definition of tier 0 under Ultima's new system. There aren't even any anti-feats I'd have to cope my way out of, like with 1-A/High 1-A.
If tier 0 scaling is funny then I'm about to be hilarious.
The problem is that I believe Chinese verses disqualify themselves by making all their levels of existence accessible via some amount of hierarchical ascendance.I feel like some chinese verse could get upgraded to absurd length depending on if a character can, somehow, achieve a state similar to the Dao itself. Given that the explanation of said Dao is accurate and well-explained by the author, obviously, but also if Ultima would even consider such a case as "valid".
Also:There's probably a few others I'm not familiar with.
Yes, cultivation is about achieving a specific and greater realm. Although depending on the novel, the specificities of such realms can drastically change.The problem is that I believe Chinese verses disqualify themselves by making all their levels of existence accessible via some amount of hierarchical ascendance.
Like, the "Dao," as a lone concept, most likely qualifies for Tier 0 in the same way I think the Monad, Form of Good, Brahman, Supreme Ultimate Reality, and etc... would also be Tier 0.
But Xianxia often has characters become one with the Dao, or even "transcend" the Dao, which disqualifies it.
That seems the most logical, yes. If not, Ultima wouldn't have precised that there can only be one tier 0 being in a verse.are all tier 0 characters under ultimas proposal assumed to be qequal?
Good list.My best guesses:
- Self-Reference Engine - Negative theology, lacks all aspects, fully nonexistent. Fulfills all Tier 0 standards.
- Swirl of the Root - Negative theology, lacks all aspects - transcends all dualities. Apparently fulfills all Tier 0 standards? IIRC Ultima also brought up Fate when discussing examples of apophatic theology stuffs.
- Jehovah - Negative theology, lacks all aspects, transcends all dualities. Probably fulfills all Tier 0 standards.
- Amaranth - Indivisible, indescribable, devoid of all dualities, etc.
Yeah, that's about all I can think of. Most of these are already Tier 0, lol.
There's probably a few others I'm not familiar with.
Perhaps some of the china verses like Dragon Talisman may also qualify. Lots of perfected trandualities n lacking of aspects.
Though, by virtue of china verse, it has a lot of hierarchies and people ascending to that level of existence, so it may not qualify. Unless ascension via shedding aspects of being is a way of bypassing that Tier 0 guideline.
Isn't tier 0 because he changes into it.Yes, cultivation is about achieving a specific and greater realm. Although depending on the novel, the specificities of such realms can drastically change.
So there is a not so unlikely possibility of "Dao" from different verse being added as Tier 0 while no one scale to it? As long as there is no anti-feat?
I can't speak for every single Xianxia novel, but most of the things I stumbled upon, even when a character "achieve" such a state, it's only the beginning/ The Dao is infinite, you can't reach the genuine thing etc etc.
Like for example, would a thing like that qualifies?
Lin Feng was conducting his seminar while seated down, and there was a Dao fruit above his head. It was a single dot that continuously displayed the principles of the Book of Taiji and continuously explained the boundless principles and concepts of the great Dao.
There was nothing else besides this tiny dot. There was no time, there was no space, there was no Yin and Yang, there was no warmth or coldness, there was no fast and slow, there was no light or darkness.
The concept of space was nonexistent, and one wouldn’t be able to tell up from down and left from right. There was no sense of time, and one couldn’t tell the past from the future.
There was no way of describing its size, and no way of describing its shape. Nobody could pinpoint its exact location, and nobody could understand what this single dot was made of.
It felt like the beginning of the Dao, yet it also felt like the ultimate end of the great Dao. There was no head and no tail, no beginning and no end – it was just so mystical, and all the wisdom and profundities of the world were condensed into this single dot.
However, when Lin Feng’s Book of Taiji was approaching its end, everything began to change once more.
This time, even that mystical and unfathomable dot vanished into nothingness.
[...]
When this ancient scripture reached its last page, it disappeared like Lin Feng’s Dao fruit. All that was a left was a patch of nothingness – it was obscure, murky, and nothing much could be seen while the entire scene was almost impossible to describe and understand.
This nothingness hovered over Lin Feng’s head. It felt like this nothingness had a form and substance, but Xiao Yan and the others watched on but felt an inscrutable feeling rise from the bottom of their hearts.
Lin Feng’s Dao fruit of before was hard to define and describe, but it could still be described as a "dot", and one could still feel the concept of power that represented the beginning and the end of all things.
However, after Lin Feng’s Dao fruit transformed and after the Bell of Destiny transformed, people began to feel a real sense of indescribability.
It wasn’t because there was a lack of vocabulary, and neither was it because there was simply no way of describing it. People just had a feeling that no matter how they described it and no matter how much they tried to understand, they would still have a wrong answer.
Lin Feng was underneath this patch of nothingness, and he seemed to transcend above all logic and reason.
Everything that seemed incredulous, impossible, or unimaginable, felt normal for Lin Feng.
[...]
Everyone had a different sensation and understanding as they watched Lin Feng in this moment. They couldn’t really describe what they saw and felt, and neither could they estimate, understand, or define.
Nope, but would likely be the highest High 1-A on the site if it was to ever be seriously evaluated.On a related note, Suggsverse definitely doesn't qualify for Ultima's new Tier 0 definition.
"Seriously evaluating" Suggsverse is a tall, if not completely impossible, order, given the utter incoherence of Lionel Suggs's writing style.Nope, but would likely be the highest High 1-A on the site if it was to ever be seriously evaluated.
Because Ultima's system would allow for his higher existential "logics" to be properly tiered. Of which, he has a very large number of.
Each of those would be like another "Meta-" being added onto "Meta-Qualitive Superiority."
Nasuverse > Suggverse? lets ******* goOn a related note, Suggsverse definitely doesn't qualify for Ultima's new Tier 0 definition.
Did you not read what his Tier 0 proposal is? NT is like... exactly in-line with what he proposes. I'd be very doubtful of it "not being allowed to grant the new form of qualitative superiority."We currently treat NT as a single level of qualitative superiority if it is framed in a way that implies superiority, but having it skyrocket to infinitely many levels above was rejected.
If Ultima's changes are approved most likely NT would not be allowed to grant the new form of qualitative superiority, as the very premise of NT self-rejects any description we would apply to it. We only treat this as a higher level of power if the verse does, but we would need much better evidence to assume it actually has qualitative superiority than just "something that is definitionally incompatible with the premise of indexing, but which the verse treats as some form of a higher power."
That's more or less exactly why I don't think NT will or should be considered to meet the new criteria.And, I don't know what you mean by 'better evidence' considering there's not much you can do to really provide "more" about something using NT lol
nt is lacking all qualities. Tier 0 is lacking all qualitiesThat's more or less exactly why I don't think NT will or should be considered to meet the new criteria.
That's not what Tier 0 is, no. He said:nt is lacking all qualities. Tier 0 is lacking all qualities
Tier 0 can be described as "above the qualities defining High 1-A." NT cannot be described that way. It cannot be described as anything.Tier 0 can be just reflective of what it currently is in the sense of it being "Transcends High 1-A in the same manner that High 1-A transcends lower tiers." So, just as High 1-A is above the quality defining 1-A levels, Tier 0 is above the qualities defining High 1-A levels
I believe that is an outdated version of his tier 0 proposal given that his post seems to directly contradict that notion.Tier 0 can be described as "above the qualities defining High 1-A." NT cannot be described that way. It cannot be described as anything.
Boundless: Characters who are completely beyond both quantity, quality and meta-quality. In other words, their superiority over lesser things derives from a total lack of any qualities, instead of simply being above some qualities while still operating on higher ones, as High 1-A characters do.
Now, if Tier 0 was just, say, "meta"-meta-qualitative superiorities, that'd effectively be just doing High 1-A again, and when two tiers share what is effectively the same definition, then, clearly, one of them is redundant and has little reason to exist. Therefore Tier 0 has to be something else, cue the above definition.
It's crazy how people think it'll be that easy. I cannot wait for the wave of threads where people try to get 1-A/0 based on misunderstandings and get brutally shut down.Wait is that true if this proposal get applied a transduality nature will get 1A to 0 rating???
Your definitely gonna see that plus threads running a bais train with wild takes.It's crazy how people think it'll be that easy. I cannot wait for the wave of threads where people try to get 1-A/0 based on misunderstandings and get brutally shut down.
it will be that easy..... at least for uminekoIt's crazy how people think it'll be that easy. I cannot wait for the wave of threads where people try to get 1-A/0 based on misunderstandings and get brutally shut down.
I'll briefly summarize how SCP's R>F layers work:Umineko SCP Foundation
Having a stupid amount of R>F layers.