Uncompositing the Dragon Ball Cosmology

[Deagonx]

Pretty sure he was involved in it, or at least approved elements of it.

Indeed, it's from 2013 and isn't by Toriyama.

It should be noted that although Akira Toriyama is listed as the author of this databook, he actually had very little involvement with the production of its content, if any at all. Toriyama makes it quite clear in most of his daizenshuu introductions that “they” (Shueisha) are responsible for putting these together, and he is often graciously humble in thanking them for all their hard work in sorting through his exhaustive series.

See above.

Why does Toriyama have to write every letter of every word himself for it to be considered applicable? You’re being incredibly and unnecessarily pedantic

Sorry for requiring evidence.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Pretty sure he was involved in it, or at least approved elements of it. Why does Toriyama have to write every letter of every word himself for it to be considered applicable? You’re being incredibly and unnecessarily pedantic

Because these are elements argued to be non canon to each other, as they were written by different teams. The macrocosm is only considered because Toriyama himself was in direct involvement with it. If he wasn't involved with Sugoroku Space, there's no reason to consider it, specially since it hasn't even came up beyond GT.

 

[MeiouHades]

See above.

Already did.

Sorry for requiring evidence

Why‘s the DBS manga or anime considered canon, then? Toriyama isn’t even actively writing the manga.
is it because he passes hand written notes to Toyotarou?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Already did.

Why‘s the DBS manga or anime considered canon, then? Toriyama isn’t even actively writing the manga.

Because it has been said to be the official continuation to Toriyama's original work, alongside Toriyama himself giving them the notes used to directly write the story.

 

[Deagonx]

Already did.

Why‘s the DBS manga or anime considered canon, then? Toriyama isn’t even actively writing the manga.

Because he writes the basic storyboards that each is based on. He had no involvement in GT

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I mean, in Super we got that Earth (And most likely any other planet) have its own special hell while in Toei and GT there's only the big Hell we see under Snake Way and even those that die on earth also get sent there, so it's not like there aren't contradictory cosmology stuff

 

[omegabronic]

Specifically for this case, that how the flow of time in between the pieces of the macrocosm are different (something established back on og DB anime, through the room of time on Kami's lookout), thus the living world, afterlife and kaioshin realm qualify as different space-time. All of these details were established on DB and Z, thus continuing to GT as the continuation of the Z anime, which is why people are suggesting "the cosmology of GT also exist in Super", as they are both continuations of Z.

As Toriyama worked on these elements for Z, later incorporating them for the proper manga, these at the very least should be the same. And this is the most important piece here.

Gt is the continuation of the toei anime Z and not the manga Z, so they aren't really continuations of the same thing per say, at least, not considered here

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Gt is the continuation of the toei anime Z and not the manga Z, so they aren't really continuations of the same thing per say, at least, not considered here

I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise. Apologies for any misunderstanding there.

 

[omegabronic]

That's the main thing that would be affected here. We actually don't use anything more from Toei/GT in terms of scaling to Super. (Though people have tried to scale exclusive abilities from both continuities to each other, these were always rejected to my knowledge)

Well, we currently also use the "Heaven is the size of a universe" for out speed ratings for super

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Well, we currently also use the "Heaven is the size of a universe" for out speed ratings for super

That was also introduced in Z-anime, so no worries there from me.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well, we currently also use the "Heaven is the size of a universe" for out speed ratings for super

I think using the sizes of certain realms is different from trying to cross-scale abilities from one continuity to another

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Sugoroku Space I don't agree with, for the simple reason it was never referenced outside GT and the guides, and has never come up in Super. Only the parts properly established are the ones to be retained, imo.

Fair, though I think it can still have merit even if we don't consider Sugoroku Space itself to exist in Super, because basically, the Chozenshuu just references it as a place identified to exist in what it initially brings up as a canon location (subspace between dimensions), along with the RoSaT. In other words, any general statements about the Sugoroku Space could be applied to the subspace that contains it and other areas within it as well, as canon locations exist in that same canon area and the Chozenshuu categorizes them all the same. Would that work?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Fair, though I think it can still have merit even if we don't consider Sugoroku Space itself to exist in Super, because basically, the Chozenshuu just references it as a place identified to exist in what it initially brings up as a canon location (subspace between dimensions), along with the RoSaT. In other words, any general statements about the Sugoroku Space could be applied to the subspace that contains it and other areas within it as well, as canon locations exist in that same canon area and the Chozenshuu categorizes them all the same. Would that work?

Neutral to the overall point.

But leaning to still disagree. Because even these elements haven't been properly showcased (in fact, isn't the RoSaT part straight contradicted in Super Manga at least?)

 

[omegabronic]

I mean, in Super we got that Earth (And most likely any other planet) have its own special hell while in Toei and GT there's only the big Hell we see under Snake Way and even those that die on earth also get sent there, so it's not like there aren't contradictory cosmology stuff

I feel like this point is important to consider and address as well, idependently of what we decide

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Neutral to the overall point.

But leaning to still disagree. Because even these elements haven't been properly showcased (in fact, isn't the RoSaT part straight contradicted in Super Manga at least?)

Idt so, though IIRC this thread went into detail about that https://vsbattles.com/threads/reintroducting-htc-to-the-macrocosm-dbs.152032/

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Neutral to the overall point.

But leaning to still disagree. Because even these elements haven't been properly showcased (in fact, isn't the RoSaT part straight contradicted in Super Manga at least?)

Nah RoSaT is not contradicted. We had a whole CRT and discussion about that already.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Part 2.2
An argument for both sharing a verse is in @LuffyRuffy46307 argument here of a statement made about how DBS happens happens between DBZ and GT, making GT canon to DBS

Supporters = The counter argument presented for it is that the statement was for the BoG movie, since DBS didn't even exist back when the statement was made and, as such, doesn't have any weight for saying that GT is in the same verse or connected to DBS. Aside from the fact that GT being the future of DBS is an idea full of contradictions and plot holes to begin with.

I feel like this would actually help our argument enormously. The DBS anime and BOG movie are different entities, so if GT happens after BOG rather than DBS, the contradictions brought on by DBS are irrelevant. And with the statements of the movies being different dimensions from the manga at least, that would mean...

-The movies are canon to the manga as parallel worlds through Toriyama's statement about them taking place in different dimensions.

-The movies are canon to the Toeiverse since GT happens after BOG (not DBS, since there are contradictions against GT happening after, just BOG movie).

Shouldn't this be a clear Manga-Toeiverse link? The GT timeline is a parallel timeline to the manga since it's the same timeline as the Battle of Gods movie, which takes place in a parallel timeline from the manga via Toriyama's statement about the movies.

Part 2.5
Another point given was from @TiltedFN, where he shows that guide books show GT-only stuff like the sugoroku space, which means that both GT and Super are connected in some way and is used as a way to enforce the point about the statements being in reference to parallel worlds in-verse.

Supporters = The counter-argument to this is that it's just another example of these type of spaces being described in the section of the guide, and doesn't have to necessarily imply that both are in the same canon/multiverse in relation to one another.

Even so, these spaces being described canonically would prove that all cosmology statements from GT are valid to use, would it not?

Not for Universe 7. Alternate timelines are only created when someone goes back to the past and makes a change, which is why originally there was only a Silver Ring, the Green Rings were for each alternate timeline.

As explained in Luffy's 2-B cosmology thread (keep in mind, an attempt to downgrade that was rejected recently), the green time rings emerge when parallel worlds are created by interference with causality (mainly through time travel), and the silver rings represent natural timelines. With Dragon Ball Heroes, for instance (I know I'm going a little off topic), many people have tried to debunk the 2-A cosmology under a similar basis as DeagonX's argument that characters are consistently surprised when parallel timelines are created, and the timelines have been stated to have a "finite capacity."

However, this argument can be debunked by the fact that Dragon Ball makes a clear distinction between natural timelines (of which there are no less than several dozen billion in Heroes) and divergent timelines. Hence why depictions of the timelines being finite apply to the rarity of divergent timelines and their chaotic effects on the rest of the multiverse.

Even without the statements by Pilaf and others, as well as the guy from the interview article, we know there are explicitly countless timelines as seen here.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Nah RoSaT is not contradicted. We had a whole CRT and discussion about that already.

I'm talking specifically about the description used to describe the Sugoroku Space, existing as the in-between point of dimensions, and suggesting the RoSaT exists in between this point too.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Please closely go through the summary above

I maintain my stance from earlier.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I mean, in Super we got that Earth (And most likely any other planet) have its own special hell while in Toei and GT there's only the big Hell we see under Snake Way and even those that die on earth also get sent there, so it's not like there aren't contradictory cosmology stuff

This is based on a single throwaway line by Frieza iirc. I wouldn't take him as an expert at all on these in the first place.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

.

This is perfect IMO.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

This is based on a single throwaway line by Frieza iirc. I wouldn't take him as an expert at all on these in the first place.

Fr, it's not even from the Anime either and is a cut movie only line

 

[omegabronic]

This is based on a single throwaway line by Frieza iirc. I wouldn't take him as an expert at all on these in the first place.

Yeah, but wouldn't the whole "in toei/gt when you go to hell you just go to a big wasted land roaming, while in super you go to your specific hell" kind of show contradictions to how the cosmologies function?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Fr, it's not even from the Anime either and is a cut movie only line

I didn't watch the RoF saga in the anime, truth be told, but if it's movie only, that just makes it worse

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I didn't watch the RoF saga in the anime, truth be told, but if it's movie only, that just makes it worse

Why are we even bringing it up if it's ROF Movie only?

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Snip.

Btw,since you brought up the game verse here, it's also worth noting that GT and Super are explicitly treated as alternate timelines there.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

We are not using game cosmology which blatantly composite everything as supporting evidence.

 

[omegabronic]

Btw,since you brought up the game verse here, it's also worth noting that GT and Super are explicitly treated as alternate timelines there.

I don't think the games mattet much here

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I don't think the games mattet much here

Agree to disagree.

 

[PrinceofPein]

5 pages, I thought everyone wanted to wait after the summaries.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I didn't watch the RoF saga in the anime, truth be told, but if it's movie only, that just makes it worse

Yep, this is the part of the movie it's from a bit past 54 minutes in (only ever mention of any such concept)

地球の地獄 Earth's hell
In the Anime (ep 23) in this exact same scene (it's when Goku first teleports to Earth and Frieza explains how he's back, they removed the Earth part and it's just plain old Hell

 

[StekFence]

hes talking like he’s been to other hells before

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

What? He spent his entire time hanging from the tree in that flower garden

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

The wiki says it's "where evil characters go if they died on Earth" plus lad calls it "Earth's hell" in Earth! Gohan! Both on the Ropes! Hurry and Get Here, Goku!!

It was poetic using Earth's dragon to save me from Earth's Hell. Oh, you can't imagine the depths of my suffering there. I spent most of my days strung up like a damn pupating moth, trapped over a field of delicate little flowers where bands of angels and fairies and enchanted stuffed animals lived! They played songs and danced asinine jigs as if their only care in life, was when they would get their next warm, fuzzy hug! Instead of ruling the universe with an iron fist, I was serenaded by teddy bears!

 

[StekFence]

I know, I just find it funny that he specifically mentions earths hell like he’d rather be at some other planets hell

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

The wiki says it's "where evil characters go if they died on Earth" plus lad calls it "Earth's hell" in Earth! Gohan! Both on the Ropes! Hurry and Get Here, Goku!!

I'm sure we don't use the DB wiki on here.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

5 pages

DB thread in a nutshell

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I'm sure we don't use the DB wiki on here.

It's literally a direct quote from Frieza.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Dude that's literally the dub lol

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Dude that's literally the dub lol

Thanks for proving the point, JJ.