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Uncompositing the Dragon Ball Cosmology

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BestMGQScalerEver said:
The way it comes across is not in a way where you can use it for proof in dragon ball then. Yes it's taking concepts in Dragon Ball to give an easy and understandable explanation with similar cases but it's also using it to make sense with our own concepts or theories and does not necessarily apply to Dragon Ball.
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Yeah! Exactly like that.
 
I apologize for the confusion. The main point is: We are given a concrete number of timelines, and they all map to the known time travel events of the series. There's no room for adding non-canon material, and we would have to imagine a reason for their creation vis-a-vis time travel to the past, which is the function that creates these timelines.
 
The article in question came from the Dragon Ball website. It's a part of their article series [Ask The Experts] where they find people who are both scientifically achieved and well-read in Dragon Ball and interview them on Dragon Ball mechanics.

The question at hand is "are they talking about real world ideas, or science as it pertains to Dragon Ball?"

Around the beginning of Dragon Ball's Cell arc, a mysterious young man appears before our heroes. That young man turned out to be none other than Trunks, who had journeyed back to the present from the future! I'm sure many of you out there were enthralled by this revelation, begging to know more about him and the secrets behind the future's time machines!

Seeing Trunks travel between past, present, and future at will left us all in awe of Bulma's incredible technology, but also wondering if travelling through time could really be so simple.

So how does time travel work for us in the real world—if at all? I sat down with cosmologist Professor Toshifumi Futamase of Kyoto Sangyo University and asked him just that. We took a deep dive into the mechanics of time machines and time travel as well as the conditions required to make them possible, all in service of understanding the original series that much more!

The complexity of time travel left me scratching my head, and I was struck by a new-found appreciation for the genius Bulma demonstrated by overcoming all the obstacles and creating a fully functional time machine! But let's get to all that in chronological order—for the time being, at least. Please join us on our journey through time!
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Based on these intro paragraphs, you'd get the impression that these articles were meant to address real-world stuff (hence "So how does time travel work for us in the real world—if at all? I sat down with cosmologist Professor Toshifumi Futamase of Kyoto Sangyo University and asked him just that."). However...

1. The name of the article is [How Do Time Machines Work? Asking an Expert about Time Travel in Dragon Ball], which declares that the purpose of the article is to discuss ideas pertaining to Dragon Ball specifically.

2. If you look through the article's sections, you'll see that while some parts address real-world ideas, the contents overwhelmingly consist of the interviewer asking if [insert statement] is how it works in Dragon Ball, with Futamase replying yes. Read the article for yourself.

The official Dragon Ball website hires guys who are educated in both complex science and Dragon Ball lore, has an interviewer lead them into making assertive claims about Dragon Ball mechanics, then endorses those claims by publishing them to the website. I don't see why the article's contents can't be considered.
 
The interview doesn't really matter. The guy isn't an author or employee, he's just some physicist they asked to do a fun interview, it isn't meant to be read into as canon information. It doesn't override the canon information we have.
 
Well, for what is worth, I'm on the same boat as LordGriffin here. Whether GT exists on a different timeline to Super or not, completely neutral (that was even my position back when it was first proposed).

However, are the cosmologies still the same? I would definitely say so. Specially after Executor's points.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
However, are the cosmologies still the same? I would definitely say so. Specially after Executor's points.
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Executor doesn't even say they're the same though? He says that some of the cosmology was written for the DB anime by Toriyama (this isn't GT) which was later added into the manga by DB. However, Toriyama did not write GT, so nothing about what Executor said extrapolates to assuming they have the same cosmology.
 
Which parts of the cosmology from Super are being assumed to exist in GT?

And which parts of the cosmology from GT are being assumed to exist in Super?

If certain canon elements like Beerus & Whis are not being assumed to exist in GT (because, why would they?) then why would other canon elements (like universes beyond Universe 7) be assumed to to exist in GT?
 
Deagonx said:
I apologize for the confusion. The main point is: We are given a concrete number of timelines, and they all map to the known time travel events of the series. There's no room for adding non-canon material, and we would have to imagine a reason for their creation vis-a-vis time travel to the past, which is the function that creates these timelines.
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We are also told how there are tons of different futures and all kinds of worlds. The green time rings represent different futures made from that alternate world, because it splits from that moment. And the gray time rings represent the current one your in, that is why the room gowasu went to has countless timelines, and lines up with the "tons of parallel worlds" and "all kinds of different futures" statements.
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
The article in question came from the Dragon Ball website. It's a part of their article series [Ask The Experts] where they find people who are both scientifically achieved and well-read in Dragon Ball and interview them on Dragon Ball mechanics.

The question at hand is "are they talking about real world ideas, or science as it pertains to Dragon Ball?"


Based on these intro paragraphs, you'd get the impression that these articles were meant to address real-world stuff (hence "So how does time travel work for us in the real world—if at all? I sat down with cosmologist Professor Toshifumi Futamase of Kyoto Sangyo University and asked him just that."). However...

1. The name of the article is [How Do Time Machines Work? Asking an Expert about Time Travel in Dragon Ball], which declares that the purpose of the article is to discuss ideas pertaining to Dragon Ball specifically.

2. If you look through the article's sections, you'll see that while some parts address real-world ideas, the contents overwhelmingly consist of the interviewer asking if [insert statement] is how it works in Dragon Ball, with Futamase replying yes. Read the article for yourself.

The official Dragon Ball website hires guys who are educated in both complex science and Dragon Ball lore, has an interviewer lead them into making assertive claims about Dragon Ball mechanics, then endorses those claims by publishing them to the website. I don't see why the article's contents can't be considered.
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It's quite literally explaining how time travel in Dragon Ball could work in the REAL WORLD using our own theories not Dragon Balls.
——In Dragon Ball, Bulma made a time machine by herself in the future. Is creating a time machine in the real world theoretically possible?

Prof. Futamase: We don't know yet. However, in physics we are yet to prove that creating a time machine is not possible. For now, let's just assume that creating a time machine is possible, shall we?
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Again either completely ignore the surrounding context and use the article as proof and also downgrade dragon ball to below lightspeed or just not use it at all because it's not referring to these theories existing within dragon ball just the basic time travel mechanics in dragon ball and how it can apply in the REAL WORLD.
 
Damage3245 said:
If certain canon elements like Beerus & Whis are not being assumed to exist in GT (because, why would they?) then why would other canon elements (like universes beyond Universe 7) be assumed to to exist in GT?
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It's also crazy because GT literally cannot fit into the cosmology of Super.

But a couple of staff have referenced Executor's arguments which dont actually mention GT or the non-canon movies in any capacity, so @Executor_N0 can you expand your explanation to whether or not you think GT or the non-canon movies also fit into that paradigm?

TiltedFN said:
The green time rings represent different futures made from that alternate world, because it splits from that moment. And the gray time rings represent the current one your in, that is why the room gowasu went to has countless timelines, and lines up with the "tons of parallel worlds" and "all kinds of different futures" statements.
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Nothing suggests that the room is filled up with other timelines where we could envision GT as being. Gowasu specifically states that there are only the rings that are in the box and that they increase when a new timeline springs into existence like with future Trunks' time meddling.
 
Damage3245 said:
Which parts of the cosmology from Super are being assumed to exist in GT?

And which parts of the cosmology from GT are being assumed to exist in Super?

If certain canon elements like Beerus & Whis are not being assumed to exist in GT (because, why would they?) then why would other canon elements (like universes beyond Universe 7) be assumed to to exist in GT?
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Specifically for this case, that how the flow of time in between the pieces of the macrocosm are different (something established back on og DB anime, through the room of time on Kami's lookout), thus the living world, afterlife and kaioshin realm qualify as different space-time. All of these details were established on DB and Z, thus continuing to GT as the continuation of the Z anime, which is why people are suggesting "the cosmology of GT also exist in Super", as they are both continuations of Z.

As Toriyama worked on these elements for Z, later incorporating them for the proper manga, these at the very least should be the same. And this is the most important piece here.
 
Deagonx said:
Executor doesn't even say they're the same though? He says that some of the cosmology was written for the DB anime by Toriyama (this isn't GT) which was later added into the manga by DB. However, Toriyama did not write GT, so nothing about what Executor said extrapolates to assuming they have the same cosmology.
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The addition to the cosmology by GT (Suguroku Space) literally appears in the Chozenshuu 4's worldview page for the main DB world.
 
Deagonx said:
It's also crazy because GT literally cannot fit into the cosmology of Super.

But a couple of staff have referenced Executor's arguments which dont actually mention GT or the non-canon movies in any capacity, so @Executor_N0 can you expand your explanation to whether or not you think GT or the non-canon movies also fit into that paradigm?


Nothing suggests that the room is filled up with other timelines where we could envision GT as being. Gowasu specifically states that there are only the rings that are in the box and that they increase when a new timeline springs into existence like with future Trunks' time meddling.
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in the manga we seen other time rings that did not come from the box
 
I'm not completely against Toei/GT cosmology applying to Super as it could be chalked to author's intent but they definitely don't coexist within the same multiverse. But that just depends on if that's even plausible to do with site standards.
 
SSJGeminiJJ said:
The addition to the cosmology by GT (Suguroku Space) literally appears in the Chozenshuu 4's worldview page for the main DB world.
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Didn't that databook come out a couple of years before Dragon Ball Super started? Why couldn't it simply be outdated by the new official continuation to the original series?
 
Damage3245 said:
Didn't that databook come out a couple of years before Dragon Ball Super started? Why couldn't it simply be outdated by the new official continuation to the original series?
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Indeed, it's from 2013 and isn't by Toriyama.

It should be noted that although Akira Toriyama is listed as the author of this databook, he actually had very little involvement with the production of its content, if any at all. Toriyama makes it quite clear in most of his daizenshuu introductions that “they” (Shueisha) are responsible for putting these together, and he is often graciously humble in thanking them for all their hard work in sorting through his exhaustive series.
 
Basically, to explain better:

When people say "GT cosmology", they are referring to Toei overall. The existence of different space-times was introduced in the first DB anime and Z-anime. Since Toriyama worked on these, even incorporating elements to the canon manga, it is safe to say these should apply to Super too.
 
Damage3245 said:
Didn't that databook come out a couple of years before Dragon Ball Super started? Why couldn't it simply be outdated by the new official continuation to the original series?
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Chozenshu 4 came out in 2013 around time of BoG movie and incorporating stuff from it which isn't canon though.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
When people say "GT cosmology", they are referring to Toei overall. The existence of different space-times was introduced in the first DB anime and Z-anime. Since Toriyama worked on these, even incorporating elements to the canon manga, it is safe to say these should apply to Super too.
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But that's unrelated to GT and the non-canon movies that are also a part of this CRT
 
Deagonx said:
But that's unrelated to GT and the non-canon movies that are also a part of this CRT
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That's the main thing that would be affected here. We actually don't use anything more from Toei/GT in terms of scaling to Super. (Though people have tried to scale exclusive abilities from both continuities to each other, these were always rejected to my knowledge)
 
No one is contesting that they have similar cosmologies, it's whether the cosmology is identical
 
MeiouHades said:
Which is why Omega gave another tally where you can vote for “same/similar cosmology but they don’t coexist”
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That’s how I feel currently. Regardless of circumstances, the GT/Film Macrocosm is functionally identical to U7 because it was established all in the Daizenshuu/Pre-Super. GT and the Films just lack the Super-Exclusive additional Concepts. (The Multiverse and Multiverse-Level Hypertimeline).

So I think they have the same/similar cosmology (for the Macrocosm) but they simply don’t share “canon” co-existence with one another.
 
SSJGeminiJJ said:
Don't see why it'd be an issue. It came out after the BoG Movie which already established the 12 universes (like it literally talks about BoG stuff like Beerus and GoDs.)
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Good point, didn’t Beerus say in that movie that the other universes have spawned warriors even mightier than them? This should mean that Toriyama had already thought of the concept of multiple universe existing, so it isn’t nearly as outdated as people think besides we still use a lot of much older material anyway
 
MeiouHades said:
Good point, didn’t Beerus say in that movie that the other universes have spawned warriors even mightier than them? This should mean that Toriyama had already thought of the concept of multiple universe existing, so it isn’t nearly as outdated as people think besides we still use a lot of much older material anyway
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He does. I don’t know if he restricts it to just 12 Universes as well, though.
 
Deagonx said:
No one is contesting that they have similar cosmologies, it's whether the cosmology is identical
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You’ll have to prove why the statements of the worlds being different space times is the aspect that isn’t applicable all the same, if you think they aren’t identifical. Since to my knowledge that’s what gets effected here
 
RedReaper said:
That’s how I feel currently. Regardless of circumstances, the GT/Film Macrocosm is functionally identical to U7 because it was established all in the Daizenshuu/Pre-Super. GT and the Films just lack the Super-Exclusive additional Concepts. (The Multiverse and Multiverse-Level Hypertimeline).

So I think they have the same/similar cosmology (for the Macrocosm) but they simply don’t share “canon” co-existence with one another.
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The macrocosm was established in DB and Z, which Toriyama not only played a role in creating but also transferred its elements to the manga. That makes it more than valid to be able applicable to DBS
 
MeiouHades said:
The macrocosm was established in DB and Z, which Toriyama not only played a role in creating but also transferred its elements to the manga. That makes it more than valid to be able applicable to DBS
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This is the crux of the matter for our scaling purposes, pretty much. The only reason GT was argued as existing on an alternate timeline to Super was to use the macrocosm elements introduced by Toei in Z.

But it has now came to light Toriyama was involved in these cosmological additions in Z anime, and some of these elements even made it in the manga, beyond just guidebooks. As these pieces are not contradicted in Super, even if we say Toei is non canon as a timeline, these aspects would still remain.

I am in agreement with that, personally.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
This is the crux of the matter for our scaling purposes, pretty much. The only reason GT was argued as existing on an alternate timeline to Super was to used the macrocosm elements introduced by Toei in Z.

But it has now came to light Toriyama was involved in these cosmological additions in Z anime, and some of these elements even made it in the manga, beyond just guidebooks. As these pieces are not contradicted in Super, even if we say Toei is non canon as a timeline, these aspects would still remain.

I am in agreement with that, personally.
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Also the Sugoroku Space scan which could further cement the fact that many elements Toei cosmology were also Toriyama‘s ideas as well (or at least he approved it) and he considered them part of the DB world anyways (there‘s nothing suggesting that Sugoroku space only existed in GT, it could‘ve been part of the cosmology, just never introduced until GT)
 
MeiouHades said:
Also the Sugoroku Space scan which could further cement the fact that many elements Toei cosmology were also Toriyama‘s ideas as well (or at least he approved it) and he considered them part of the DB world anyways
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Sugoroku Space I don't agree with, for the simple reason it was never referenced outside GT and the guides, and has never come up in Super. Only the parts properly established are the ones to be retained, imo.
 
MeiouHades said:
Also the Sugoroku Space scan which could further cement the fact that many elements Toei cosmology were also Toriyama‘s ideas as well (or at least he approved it) and he considered them part of the DB world anyways
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It doesn't because he didn't author the work it was in, and it predates Super
 
Deagonx said:
It doesn't because he didn't author the work it was in, and it predates Super
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Pretty sure he was involved in it, or at least approved elements of it. Why does Toriyama have to write every letter of every word himself for it to be considered applicable? You’re being incredibly and unnecessarily pedantic
 
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