Cell is getting nerfed. (Dragon Ball)

[Dust_Collector]

I can agree with Cells normal stats not scaling 1 to 1 with his charged up Kamehameha, it's like on of the most common things for DB characters to whip out supercharged attacks that are stronger than their normal moves, like the Vegeta Final Flash example. Even if you go the route of Cell being off guard it doesn't change the fact that Vegeta couldn't even make Cell flinch with his normal attacks and thought that a charged attack like the Final Flash could do something.

Personally think Gohan (And Buu Saga characters) should fully scale, Gohan was weakened and didn't have a whole lot of time to gather a whole lot of Ki since Cell had been charging up for a decent amount of time beforehand.

 

[Damage3245]

Well yeah. Final Flash is stronger than Vegeta's physicals, that much is obvious. But it's not so much stronger that Vegeta's physicals can't downscale.

The damage that Vegeta's physicals did against Cell.

The damage that Vegeta's Final Flash did against Cell.

In what world is Vegeta downscaling from the Final Flash?

 

[The_Smashor]

The damage that Vegeta's physicals did against Cell.

The damage that Vegeta's Final Flash did against Cell.

In what world is Vegeta downscaling from the Final Flash?

The world where Cell only took damage from the thing due to underestimating how strong it was until the very last moment. The world where Krillin nearly fatally wounded Vegeta based on this same principal.

And anyways, the Final Flash (Especially in this instance) is noted to use every last bit of Vegeta's Ki iirc. So he's probably not as comparable to it as characters in the series are comparable to most of their techniques.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The world where Cell only took damage from the thing due to underestimating how strong it was until the very last moment.

Gee. Why might Cell have underestimated the strength of the Final Flash? Possibly because Vegeta's physicals were dimensions behind?

And anyways, the Final Flash (Especially in this instance) is noted to use every last bit of Vegeta's Ki iirc.

If that is all that needs to be said to conclude the argument, Cell unleashed the Solar Kamehameha with "all [its] strength".

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Gee. Why might Cell have underestimated the strength of the Final Flash? Possibly because Vegeta's physicals were dimensions behind?

If that is all that needs to be said to conclude the argument, Cell unleashed the Solar Kamehameha with "all [its] strength".

Because Vegeta has less strength than Cell yes. But full Ki Vegeta can hit harder than Cell can casually take.

Where is it stated that he used all his strength? He just said he has collected that much kamehameha. It's evident that he had way more because the clash continued. He wasn't instantly gassed out.

 

[Omegabronic]

are people arguing that every ki attack scales 1 to 1 with every other stat of the chars? not agreeing or disagreeing with this crt, just curious about what the argument currently is

 

[StekFence]

I agree with the op, if super charged attacks were comparable to physicals, they wouldn’t need those attacks in the first place.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

are people arguing that every ki attack scales 1 to 1 with every other stat of the chars? not agreeing or disagreeing with this crt, just curious about what the argument currently is

That the ki used in attacks can be used to boost everything to the same level. Ap and speed though speed is just what it is. Mostly that ap and dura scale to the highest attack given the same amount of Ki.

 

[Omegabronic]

That the ki used in attacks can be used to boost everything to the same level. Ap and speed though speed is just what it is. Mostly that ap and dura scale to the highest attack given the same amount of Ki.

then why even after cell went full power he still felt like his full power kamehameha would be enough to deal with gohan after gohan overpowered him drastically? like, wouldn't his punches be as strong as any ki attack he could ever do whatsoever? same for vegeta with final flash, why would he bother with that if all of his attacks are completely equal to it?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

then why even after cell went full power he still felt like his full power kamehameha would be enough to deal with gohan after gohan overpowered him drastically? like, wouldn't his punches be as strong as any ki attack he could ever do whatsoever? same for vegeta with final flash, why would he bother with that if all of his attacks are completely equal to it?

....They are not. He needs to charge his ki. He can do it with a punch but it still requires concentration beyond what an average hit would need. Basically them using their power is amping the Ki usage throughout the whole body and them firing blasts is done by focusing ki. Ki can be focused in a fist with the same results but it's much more unpractical. That's why it happens much more rarely but it does happen. Also characters have previously survived attacks to which their charged attacks lost like Vegeta and Frieza. Please everyone read the last pages your arguments have probably already been said if you disagree with the reasons against them then debate them don't repeat the same question.

 

[Omegabronic]

....They are not. He needs to charge his ki. He can do it with a punch but it still requires concentration beyond what an average hit would need. Basically them using their power is amping the Ki usage throughout the whole body and them firing blasts is done by focusing ki. Ki can be focused in a fist with the same results but it's much more unpractical. That's why it happens much more rarely but it does happen. Also characters have previously survived attacks to which their charged attacks lost like Vegeta and Frieza.

.....then why didn't he just did that instead of using a long range "easy to see from afar and dodge" beam instead of just punching cell?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

.....then why didn't he just did that instead of using a long range "easy to see from afar and dodge" beam instead of just punching cell?

You mean Vegeta or what? Vegeta because he was not about to go melee distance with Cell in case that didn't work and in a meta way because energy beams are much more awesome to look at. But the question of why don't you just go close to him and punch him instead of staying far away and shooting is because being that close would leave him both exhausted and much more vulnerable. Like why wouldn't he stand far away and blast him instead of going right next to him. Also because a beam can target a much larger area of the target.

Even if he did go to punch him he would still need go gather a significant amount of ki in his fist so it's like it's a lot harder to notice.

 

[StekFence]

So then, are you suggesting Cell be tier X, 4-B with full power?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

So then, are you suggesting Cell be tier X, 4-B with full power?

Cell being whatever he scales at normally and the tier he already has when fighting at full power with charged attacks. I don't think just going full power outputs the same power just higher than his basic expenditure state. However I will reread the fight later and come back to that.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I disagree with this thread. On paper, yes it is Cell's most powerful attack, but it was barely matching what was only 50% of Teen Gohan's PL at worst. Which means his full power would be 2.106 Kilofoe at minimum. And him breaking Teen Gohan's arm was due to Gohan's "Durability dropping exponentially when distracted." And that was regular Perfect Cell and not SPC who had head blown off by Final Flash and Kamehameha. But Cell was clearly holding back a lot during those events and could have easily tanked and/or no selled them if he wished.

Also, the main points for original Dragon Ball saga was because it was back then. Another thing commonly stated is that the ability to control Ki also gets better as each character gets stronger. The absolute strongest characters are especially just as strong physically as their strongest Ki blasts; lower level Dragon Ball characters at least had a point of high tiers being limited to specific attacks that drain all their energy, but not ones from Android saga and beyond have more or less mastered Ki control than anyone who came before them. It's the main reason Android 17 and 18 aren't just blowing up planets every time they throw a punch; as it was confirmed pretty much everyone by the time of Android saga had this power where they are generating casual planet busting levels of energy every time they throw a punch, but Ki control got so good where they are able to do so without causing much collateral damage by accident.

Likewise, it is imply if Cell did succeed, he would have survived his own attack and perhaps evolved and further beyond. And it's like like Cell was draining all his energy into one attack; he basically fully rejuvenated himself and basically proved to himself he could just rinse and repeat to keep getting stronger by combining his Saiyan, Namekian, and Frieza race physiology together.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Where is it stated that he used all his strength? He just said he has collected that much kamehameha. It's evident that he had way more because the clash continued. He wasn't instantly gassed out.

Click the link? Question mark?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Click the link? Question mark?

Still only see that he has gathered enough ki to destroy the solar system. Am I missing an image?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Still only see that he has gathered enough ki to destroy the solar system. Am I missing an image?

No, you're just not reading everything. Read the last paragraph.

 

[Damage3245]

Likewise, it is imply if Cell did succeed, he would have survived his own attack and perhaps evolved and further beyond. And it's like like Cell was draining all his energy into one attack; he basically fully rejuvenated himself and basically proved to himself he could just rinse and repeat to keep getting stronger by combining his Saiyan, Namekian, and Frieza race physiology together.

I don't understand this point DDM. Cell was never going to hit himself with his own attack.

 

[pineappleman]

No, you're just not reading everything. Read the last paragraph.

Are you referring to 'A Cell with more power than never'?

 

[KingTempest]

Put me for agree

You guys keep talking about UES but that ain't how it work

A UES would let your dura scale for abilities that involve slight amounts of energy that can be channeled in one place

The ki of your entire body being focused in 1 spot would be stronger than the individual parts of ki that are used to defend specific parts of the body

 

[Nierre]

Likewise, it is imply if Cell did succeed, he would have survived his own attack and perhaps evolved and further beyond. And it's like like Cell was draining all his energy into one attack; he basically fully rejuvenated himself and basically proved to himself he could just rinse and repeat to keep getting stronger by combining his Saiyan, Namekian, and Frieza race physiology together.

Where's the implication?

And can you prove that it's not thru regeneration that he would've survived and NOT durability? Because just as he survived Gohan's Kame via regeneration, I could easily argue that via the same means, he would've/could've just regenerated back somehow (assuming the implication exists. I don't remember such implication but it's been awhile).


Count me as agreeing with the OP FRA

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't understand this point DDM. Cell was never going to hit himself with his own attack.

The attack was going to end in an omnidirectional blast that nukes the solar system, which would more or less catch himself in the crossfire was what was meant. Which means if it's not a suicide attack, it would scale to durability then.

 

[pineappleman]

Put me for agree

You guys keep talking about UES but that ain't how it work

A UES would let your dura scale for abilities that involve slight amounts of energy that can be channeled in one place

The ki of your entire body being focused in 1 spot would be stronger than the individual parts of ki that are used to defend specific parts of the body

individual parts of ki that are used to defend specific parts of the body

what?

 

[Damage3245]

The attack was going to end in an omnidirectional blast that nukes the solar system, which would more or less catch himself in the crossfire was what was meant. Which means if it's not a suicide attack, it would scale to durability then.

Unless that omnidirectional blast is occuring a point-blank range, it's not a point in favor of Cell's durability.

(Never mind the fact that Cell has already shown that he can survive an attack that completely blows up his body except for his core, so his duraiblity doesn't even need to scale to it for him to survive)

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I did. Still don't see it. He literally says I have already gathered enough power meaning he still has more to gather which he showcased in the beam clash.

No, you're just not reading everything. Read the last paragraph.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Put me for agree

You guys keep talking about UES but that ain't how it work

A UES would let your dura scale for abilities that involve slight amounts of energy that can be channeled in one place

The ki of your entire body being focused in 1 spot would be stronger than the individual parts of ki that are used to defend specific parts of the body

Explain Vegeta surviving Kamehameha when he lost the clash.

 

[KingTempest]

Explain Vegeta surviving Kamehameha when he lost the clash.

Did I say it's impossible for them to scale? If they have feats of scaling to an attack then they scale to an attack.

I said the methods yall use for UES scaling is flat out wrong. Simple.

All cause there's supports for something wrong doesn't make it not wrong.

what?

You guard your arm with 20% of ki
Then your other arm with 20%
Then your leg with 20%
Then your other leg with 20%
Then your torso with 10%
Then your head with 10%

The kamehameha would draw the energy from all those sources and focus it, making a blast using 100%.

It uses ki. It doesn't use the same amount of ki.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

The Solar Kamehameha was going to kill Gohan, so don't think that argument works

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Did I say it's impossible for them to scale? If they have feats of scaling to an attack then they scale to an attack.

I said the methods yall use for UES scaling is flat out wrong. Simple.

All cause there's supports for something wrong doesn't make it not wrong.

You guard your arm with 20% of ki
Then your other arm with 20%
Then your leg with 20%
Then your other leg with 20%
Then your torso with 10%
Then your head with 10%

The kamehameha would draw the energy from all those sources and focus it, making a blast using 100%.

It uses ki. It doesn't use the same amount of ki.

It's literally the same thing here. I truly can see no reason why it wouldn't scale. It's not like it's a fricking kienzan.

 

[Damage3245]

Explain Vegeta surviving Kamehameha when he lost the clash.

Vegeta moved out of the way of the Kamehameha after being pushed up by it. Since the Kamehameha didn't detonate against him, I think it's safe to say the majority of the energy continued past him.

 

[KingTempest]

It's literally the same thing here. I truly can see no reason why it wouldn't scale. It's not like it's a fricking kienzan.

I'm not about to explain it twice.

Unless he has the feats to scale to it, or unless it was a super casual non ki taxing attack, he doesn't scale off of the UES laws

 

[CloverDragon03]

Instant disagree for Sherlock’s reasons

The Tri-Beam thread was a mistake and I won’t be convinced otherwise

 

[pineappleman]

You guard your arm with 20% of ki
Then your other arm with 20%
Then your leg with 20%
Then your other leg with 20%
Then your torso with 10%
Then your head with 10%

nice headcanon bro, feel free to link me to your blog
dw i remember when future gohan lost an arm and he was stated to get 20% weaker ki-wise
a true shame Buu didn't sprout multiple arms to abuse this

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Solar Kamehameha was going to kill Gohan, so don't think that argument works

The Solar Kamehameha could kill Gohan for other reasons such as destroying the Earth and forcing him to die due to lack of oxygen. So it being able to "Kill Gohan" isn't entirely an argument against Gohan's durability.

Did I say it's impossible for them to scale? If they have feats of scaling to an attack then they scale to an attack.

I said the methods yall use for UES scaling is flat out wrong. Simple.

All cause there's supports for something wrong doesn't make it not wrong.

You guard your arm with 20% of ki
Then your other arm with 20%
Then your leg with 20%
Then your other leg with 20%
Then your torso with 10%
Then your head with 10%

The kamehameha would draw the energy from all those sources and focus it, making a blast using 100%.

It uses ki. It doesn't use the same amount of ki.

You do realize even 2.5% for Cell would still be 4-B and half of that in Gohan's case.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Vegeta moved out of the way of the Kamehameha after being pushed up by it. Since the Kamehameha didn't detonate against him, I think it's safe to say the majority of the energy continued past him.

I don't think Gohan's kamehameha exploded either. He still killed Cell so it's obvious it doesn't need to explode to deal the whole damage because either the kamehameha was being polite to Vegeta or he didn't get killed by it.

 

[Damage3245]

You do realize even 2.5% for Cell would still be 4-B and half of that in Gohan's case.

If this CRT gets applied, Cell will still be 4-B normally...

 

[KingTempest]

You do realize even 2.5% for Cell would still be 4-B and half of that in Gohan's case.

I didn't say he can't backscale or he would be 0.00001% of his Kamehameha's rating

He won't scale 1:1 from his attack.

And that was just a gross highball to easily explain it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Gohan was specifically aiming his Ki at Cell and wanted to destroy Cell alone. Cell while aiming for Gohan, 1st and foremost, but also didn't mind destroying anyone else alongside him or the rest of the Solar System.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Are you referring to 'A Cell with more power than never'?

Yes.

dw i remember when future gohan lost an arm and he was stated to get 20% weaker ki-wise
a true shame Buu didn't sprout multiple arms to abuse this

I remember when Gohan had his arm broken and was reduced to less than half.