Gilgamesh (f/sn) downgrade

[FallenMaou2234]

What’s the confusion lol

Gonna have to disagree if this is the premise of the CRT

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I feel like this has been unanonimously rejected by so many, should we close this now or call the staff for the disapproval?

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

That's a pretty big presupposition do you have any basis for that outside of surtr which is a distinct circumstance to ea?

If full powered ea cant even destroy avalon in stay night, what makes you think it can destroy the planet? Also it says multiple times in multiple works ea's ability is to reveal the true state of the planet, not destroy it.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Gonna have to disagree if this is the premise of the CRT

did you read the entire thread or just that 1 line

 

[FallenMaou2234]

If full powered ea cant even destroy avalon in stay night, what makes you think it can destroy the planet? Also it says multiple times in multiple works ea's ability is to reveal the true state of the planet, not destroy it.

"Planet Creating weapon"
"Used to enact genesis"
"World was born and destroyed seven times"
"Twisted and Tore the planet"
Not sure what you want me to tell you here buddy

Also i'm not even sure how you came to the conclusion that the description of "Shows the truth of the planet" somehow means ea doesn't destroy the world when said truth is the Void from which it all came, Which is explicitly indicative of the fact that EA destroys the current world by reducing it to its Primordial state.

So like I said if the premise of your CRT is "Anti-World Noble Phantasms cannot destroy the planet" and "Ea shows the truth of the world and doesn't destroy it" I'll disagree simple as that.

 

[Violetcyanide]

I disagree

If full powered ea cant even destroy avalon in stay night, what makes you think it can destroy the planet? Also it says multiple times in multiple works ea's ability is to reveal the true state of the planet, not destroy it.

Ea can't destroy avalon because it is part of the reverse side of the world,where the soul of the planet exists.the counter force wouldn't allow that,meaning it will simply suppress the attempt.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I disagree

Ea can't destroy avalon because it is part of the reverse side of the world,where the soul of the planet exists.the counter force wouldn't allow that,meaning it will simply suppress the attempt.

that just proves my point that ea isnt 1-c, a lot of people who disagree brought up that ea could destroy it

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

"Planet Creating weapon"
"Used to enact genesis"
"World was born and destroyed seven times"
"Twisted and Tore the planet"
Not sure what you want me to tell you here buddy

Are you saying ragnarok is 1-c as well? most of the same descriptions you were using were used there

 

[Violetcyanide]

that just proves my point that ea isnt 1-c, a lot of people who disagree brought up that ea could destroy it

You misunderstood the point,ea can destroy the world but it wouldn't destroy it because the counter force still exists.thats the thing holding it back.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

You misunderstood the point,ea can destroy the world but it wouldn't destroy it because the counter force still exists.thats the thing holding it back.

the counter force is like 70% of the reason why the earth is 1-c. also the counterforce can be used against lower threats, like the destruction of a texture.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

Are you saying ragnarok is 1-c as well? most of the same descriptions you were using were used there

Ragnrok? I'll assume you mean Laevatein or Loptr Laegjarn and if so then yes, that's literally what it's rated as on the wiki plus it was literally compared to Rhongominyad don't see how it wouldn't get the Low 1-C rating.

 

[Violetcyanide]

the counter force is like 70% of the reason why the earth is 1-c. also the counterforce can be used against lower threats, like the destruction of a texture.

The counter force is 1-c and so is the world,they are two seperate entities

Ea is strong enough that it can destroy the world as shown multiple times in strange fake,ccc and materials.
However it is still a a earth born entity which means it cannot overcome the measures put forth by the counter force.there are two different things here you need to break through to destroy the world.
1.have raw power to destroy the world.
2.overcome the barrier put by counter force.
Ea can do the former but not the latter.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Ragnrok? I'll assume you mean Laevatein or Loptr Laegjarn and if so then yes, that's literally what it's rated as on the wiki plus it was literally compared to Rhongominyad don't see how it wouldn't get the Low 1-C rating.

that event was literally stated to only destroy a texture, which is not the entire planet.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

The counter force is 1-c and so is the world,they are two seperate entities

Ea is strong enough that it can destroy the world as shown multiple times in strange fake,ccc and materials.
However it is still a a earth born entity which means it cannot overcome the measures put forth by the counter force.there are two different things here you need to break through to destroy the world.
1.have raw power to destroy the world.
2.overcome the barrier put by counter force.
Ea can do the former but not the latter.

Moriarity destroyed an earth without a counter force.

Archer (James Moriarty)

"Archer of Shinjuku" is an Archer-class Servant able to be summoned by Ritsuka Fujimaru in the Grand Orders of Fate/Grand Order. He debuts in the Shinjuku Sub-Singularity as the main antagonist. Archer's True Name is James Moriarty, the greatest nemesis of Sherlock Holmes. Despite his relative...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Violetcyanide]

that event was literally stated to only destroy a texture, which is not the entire planet.

The laevatien from proper human history is what causes the destruction of the scandinavian texture.

The one from the lostbelt can only destroy the world.

 

[KingNanaya]

hard disagree

 

[Violetcyanide]

Moriarity destroyed an earth without a counter force.

Archer (James Moriarty)

"Archer of Shinjuku" is an Archer-class Servant able to be summoned by Ritsuka Fujimaru in the Grand Orders of Fate/Grand Order. He debuts in the Shinjuku Sub-Singularity as the main antagonist. Archer's True Name is James Moriarty, the greatest nemesis of Sherlock Holmes. Despite his relative...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Then make a crt,Moriarty to 1-c

 

[FallenMaou2234]

that event was literally stated to only destroy a texture, which is not the entire planet.

It was also compared to In power directly to Rhongomyniad which not only fastens the reverse side and the human texture, but was also going to be used by Morgan to wipe out the Atlantic lostbelt. That in and of itself would make Laevatein Low 1-C, but ending the age of the Gods is Low 1-C as well since the reverse side is literally what the age of the Gods was before it ended and because well Gods existed and killing Gods in Nasu usually puts you at Low 1-C. Not only that but Loptr Laegjarn>>Surtr and well Surtr just straight up absorbed the power of a Fantasy tree and that tends to give Low 1-C too. Sooo I don't think this holds up as much as you think even ignoring the fact that Surtr explicitly destroyed all 9 Scandinavian realms.

So like I said if the entire premise of this CRT is "Anti-World Noble phantasms cant destroy the planet therefore no Low 1-C" I'm gonna have to disagree

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

It was also compared to In power directly to Rhongomyniad which not only fastens the reverse side and the human texture, but was also going to be used by Morgan to wipe out the Atlantic lostbelt. That in and of itself would make Laevatein Low 1-C, but ending the age of the Gods is Low 1-C as well since the reverse side is literally what the age of the Gods was before it ended and because well Gods existed and killing Gods in Nasu usually puts you at Low 1-C. Not only that but Loptr Laegjarn>>Surtr and well Surtr just straight up absorbed the power of a Fantasy tree and that tends to give Low 1-C too. Sooo I don't think this holds up as you think even ignoring the fact that Surtr explicitly destroyed all 9 Scandinavian realms.

So like I said if the entire premise of this CRT is "Anti-World Noble phantasms cant destroy the planet therefore no Low 1-C" I'm gonna have to disagree

The age of gods ending doesnt kill gods, it just weakens them and makes them flee to the reverse side.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

The age of gods ending doesnt kill gods, it just weakens them and makes them flee to the reverse side.

Maybe, if you ignore the context as to "why" it ended. It was explicitly stated that all the Scandinavian gods died in the battle against Surtr though and Skadi is explicitly referred to as the "Last God" for this reason. So yes, Surtr ended the age of gods by killing all the Scandinavian gods except one in that pruned timeline. So again ending the age of the Gods in and of itself makes him Low 1-C.

Even ignoring this it doesn't change the fact that it's stated to be on par with Rhongomyniad and the fact that Loptr Laegjarn is his strongest attack and that's after absorbing the power of a fantasy tree.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Maybe, if you ignore the context as to "why" it ended. It was explicitly stated that all the Scandinavian gods died in the battle against Surtr though and Skadi is explicitly referred to as the "Last God" for this reason. So yes, Surtr ended the age of gods by killing all the Scandinavian gods except one in that pruned timeline. So again ending the age of the Gods in and of itself makes him Low 1-C.

Even ignoring this it doesn't change the fact that it's stated to be on par with Rhongomyniad and the fact that Loptr Laegjarn is his strongest attack and that's after absorbing the power of a fantasy tree.

I really dont see a valid argument for his first key, uses the same destroying the world argument that ea does

 

[DaReaperMan]

Bluntly put- Ea is not the only planet-busting NP, but in this case it's primarily the counter-force as to why Earth is so hard to destroy, so Ea being capable of destroying it makes it Tier 1 one way or another.

And that's also why Moriarty DOESN'T have tier 1, he was gonna destroy a doomed world and unlike Ea, there is 0 reason to assume it's ******* with any Tier 1 nonsense like Avalon or the other side, it's a big ****** meteor for gods' sake

 

[FallenMaou2234]

I really dont see a valid argument for his first key, uses the same destroying the world argument that ea does

Um maybe because Destroying the 9 Scandinavian realms=Low 1-C and also maybe because that statement comparing Laevatein to Rhongomyniad came before Surtr absorbed the Fantasy tree oh and maybe because Surtr>>>Lostbelt King Skadi. Could be any of them or all of the above, just saying.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Bluntly put- Ea is not the only planet-busting NP, but in this case it's primarily the counter-force as to why Earth is so hard to destroy, so Ea being capable of destroying it makes it Tier 1 one way or another.

And that's also why Moriarty DOESN'T have tier 1, he was gonna destroy a doomed world and unlike Ea, there is 0 reason to assume it's ******* with any Tier 1 nonsense like Avalon or the other side, it's a big ****** meteor for gods' sake

A lot of people dont know the difference between np statuses. Anti world doesnt mean the np can destroy a planet, anti planet does, though.
Ea doesnt destroy the counter force, either. the counter force only gives a portion of its power to counter guardians, varying on the threat.

Ea cant even penetrate avalon itself.

 

[DaReaperMan]

A lot of people dont know the difference between np statuses. Anti world doesnt mean the np can destroy a planet, anti planet does, though.
Ea doesnt destroy the counter force, either. the counter force only gives a portion of its power to counter guardians, varying on the threat.

Ea cant even penetrate avalon itself.

Then why couldn't Moriarty destroy the planet without taking care of the counter-force hmmmm?

Honestly, your argument feels like it's based on disbelief

Disagree FRA

 

[Violetcyanide]

Bluntly put- Ea is not the only planet-busting NP, but in this case it's primarily the counter-force as to why Earth is so hard to destroy, so Ea being capable of destroying it makes it Tier 1 one way or another.

And that's also why Moriarty DOESN'T have tier 1, he was gonna destroy a doomed world and unlike Ea, there is 0 reason to assume it's ******* with any Tier 1 nonsense like Avalon or the other side, it's a big ****** meteor for gods' sake

Every singularity and lostbelt is a doomed world,doesnt stop them from having avalon.

avalon exists in the reverse side of the world which is the soul of the planet.nasu world cannot exist without avalon otherwise it will crumble down.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Every singularity and lostbelt is a doomed world,doesnt stop them from having avalon.

avalon exists in the reverse side of the world which is the soul of the planet.nasu world cannot exist without avalon otherwise it will crumble down.

Not explicitly called such mate, it was extremely explicit that there is 0 counter-force for PS 1

 

[Violetcyanide]

Not explicitly called such mate, it was extremely explicit that there is 0 counter-force for PS 1

What does the counter force has to do with this?

Avalon is a 6d realm present in the reverse side,just because the counter force doesnt exist,doesnt mean avalon ceases to exist.

Especially since lb 6,a culled world,we forge excalibur in avalon proving that avalon does exist even in a doomed world.

 

[DaReaperMan]

What does the counter force has to do with this?

Avalon is a 6d realm present in the reverse side,just because the counter force doesnt exist,doesnt mean avalon ceases to exist.

Especially since lb 6,a culled world,we forge excalibur in avalon proving that avalon does exist even in a doomed world.

Was LB6 called a doomed world? If not you really can't argue this

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Then why couldn't Moriarty destroy the planet without taking care of the counter-force hmmmm?

Honestly, your argument feels like it's based on disbelief

Disagree FRA

I don't think you understand what i meant. i was arguing against moriarty being 1-c.

Gilgamesh failing to destroy avalon is just one giant anti feat against his tier rating imo

 

[Violetcyanide]

Was LB6 called a doomed world? If not you really can't argue this

Here is the statement i can find

Holmes:."..destroying the world is not possible."

"Goetia wasn't planning to destroy the world, even then, he needed 3000 years."

"However, if that world is cut off from history, it becomes possible. Basically..."

Ritsuka:"It is possible to destroy a world that is separated from history?"

Holmes & Moriarty:"SUBARASHII!!"

So worlds cut off from human history can be destroyed which does include lostbelts and singularities.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Here is the statement i can find

Holmes:

"...destroying the world is not possible."

"Goetia wasn't planning to destroy the world, even then, he needed 3000 years."

"However, if that world is cut off from history, it becomes possible. Basically..."

Ritsuka:

"It is possible to destroy a world that is separated from history?"

Holmes & Moriarty:

"SUBARASHII!!"

Which is from PS1. Lostbelts are their own history are they not?

I don't think you understand what i meant. i was arguing against moriarty being 1-c.

Gilgamesh failing to destroy avalon is just one giant anti feat against his tier rating imo

"But Gil didn't destroy Avalon!" Because there are 2 occasions he's used full power Ea that weren't F/SN that had it as a big attack without any fancy shit, if you don't believe me, show me where anything about F/SN Ea(and ONLY F/sn) where it ***** with time or space.

The first time was against Enkidu who promptly canceled it out becuase that's how his NP works

And the second time was against Tiamat who is tier 1. So you're ****** one way or another

And Tiamat happened in the Mesopotamian underworld. Nowhere near Avalon.

 

[Violetcyanide]

Which is from PS1. Lostbelts are their own history are they not?

Proper human history,the entire reason lostbelts even exist without getting culled is thanks to fantasy tree which is what we destroy,leaving the world to destroy itself in a couple months.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Proper human history,the entire reason lostbelts even exist without getting culled is thanks to fantasy tree which is what we destroy,leaving the world to destroy itself in a couple months.

I'm like 99% sure Fantasy trees are tier 1, right? That's always the idea I got from them anyway

 

[Deagonx]

This is what people wanted the Moon Cell thread discussion to look like, lol.

 

[Theoretical]

This is what people wanted the Moon Cell thread discussion to look like, lol.

Hey man you can't blame us for marshadow being a special individual.

If full powered ea cant even destroy avalon in stay night, what makes you think it can destroy the planet?

I'm reluctant to believe that was a full power ea considering the lack of destructive that power that came from it soooo

Also it says multiple times in multiple works ea's ability is to reveal the true state of the planet, not destroy it.

It is said that it can reveal the truth of the world

It is never said it can't destroy it

It can show the truth of the world and still have the capacity to destroy the world considering how there's evidence to suggest both are the case, saying it shows the truth of the world is not a direct negation to it having the capacity to destroy the world.

that just proves my point that ea isnt 1-c, a lot of people who disagree brought up that ea could destroy it

That's not his point

Are you saying ragnarok is 1-c as well? most of the same descriptions you were using were used there

It just said the he once destroyed "world" , then went on to say it can destroy the planet too not that it once destroyed the planet.

This was addressed by me.

the counter force is like 70% of the reason why the earth is 1-c. also the counterforce can be used against lower threats, like the destruction of a texture.

Ah ye does it matter tho? Gilgamesh still has low 1-C via ea having the capacity to destroy what's physically there. He doesn't even have 1-C, possibly 1-C is for his extra ccc scaling.

that event was literally stated to only destroy a texture, which is not the entire planet.

It said it can destroy the entire planet not just world told it would include the textures marshadow, thanks for the reminder it's also compared to rhongo which holds the textures together.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I'm reluctant to believe that was a full power ea considering the lack of destructive that power that came from it soooo

Tbf, Gilgamesh even admit in the visual novel he wasn’t holding back during their final confrontation and I seriously doubt that isn’t the case of him holding back as he was already overpowering Excalibur in a clash. You can see that in the video

Not to mention the Visual Novel is like decades old since it is expected as he didn’t originally have a chant for Ea




Also I just remembered here at 2:15, it specifically say he using Ea at its fullest maximum output

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Also lack of destructive power is a AOE fallacy technically speaking as that isn’t a counterpoint

 

[DaReaperMan]

Tbf, Gilgamesh even admit in the visual novel he wasn’t holding back during their final confrontation and I seriously doubt that isn’t the case of him holding back as he was already overpowering Excalibur in a clash. You can see that in the video

Ea was a pixie stick that did nothing but be a big attack in fate route. Get it right

 

[DaReaperMan]

Tbf, Gilgamesh even admit in the visual novel he wasn’t holding back during their final confrontation and I seriously doubt that isn’t the case of him holding back as he was already overpowering Excalibur in a clash. You can see that in the video

Also also

Read Fate/Strange Fake and then tell me that was Gil not holding back in Fate route.