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Canonicity of RWBY x JL Crossover Comic

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Deagonx said:
As for my part, I am still strongly against it, and I think in particular Weekly's argument that the team isn't similar enough to justify recognition is very unreasonable. I also want to clarify that my reasoning for that wasn't solely the appearance of each individual character, but also the same names, and the fact that they're a team with each other, all IMO contribute very strongly to recognizability. To the point where I don't think it should even be a question.
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Having the same name doesnt make them the same person though? And like i explained, the teams are different, Aquaman was replaced with Vixen in the film, and half of the members of the justice league are different species from their counterparts in the comic
 
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I believe I agree with much of what Weekly is saying, both sides do have a point, but Weekly's in this case is stronger
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Having the same name doesnt make them the same person though?
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I'm well aware that they aren't the same person. I made that very clear in the OP and my follow up post. The point I am making is not contingent in any way upon them being the same people.
 
Deagonx said:
I'm well aware that they aren't the same person. I made that very clear in the OP and my follow up post. The point I am making is not contingent in any way upon them being the same people.
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I'm aware, you're arguing that since they have the same names and vaguely similar outfits and powers, they should be recognized, but that doesnt mean much. If you take two people, let's call them John Smith, they're two completely different people but they look like twins, and put them in the same outfit, that doesnt mean you would know both of them immediately just from having met one of them.

On top of the whole problem of almost every member of the justice league being a different species between medias.

Like I said, this entire argument hinges on the lack of a very specific interaction, which is ultimately unnecessary when you take all of the other info I provided into account.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
I'm aware, you're arguing that since they have the same names and vaguely similar outfits and powers, they should be recognized, but that doesnt mean much. If you take two people, let's call them John Smith, they're two completely different people but they look like twins, and put them in the same outfit, that doesnt mean you would know both of them immediately just from having met one of them.
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Weekly, you have already made your views on the matter abundantly clear. As have I. There is no benefit to repeating them ad nauseum and all it serves to do is clutter up the thread and make it harder for staff and other members to follow and read. This is already well-treaded ground in the discussion.
 
Since I have been asked to give my input in dms and some servers, I will try to grasp the idea and its counter-perspective.

So here are standards of the VSBW that are relevant to the discussion:
To understand this, I need to understand what is the verse, its plot and the issue. So this is the verse page and this is how I understood:
RWBY follows the story of four girls who attend Beacon Academy to train to battle creatures known as the "Creatures of Grimm" in the world of Remnant. The series also revolves around a conflict between two opposing deities and the discovery of a mysterious element called Dust.

And this is Justice league action verse. Justice League Action features short and action-packed episodes of the Justice League fighting against evil forces. The episodes are mostly standalone, except for the first four that tell one story.

Before we begin, I would like to suggest that we recognize the concept of crossovers in VSBW and familiarize ourselves with its guidelines.
A crossover is the placement of two or more characters originating from different continuities/franchises/verses into a single story.
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Canon crossovers officially take place within both continuities, and as such recurrently happen within a shared universe or feature characters made by the same creators. Examples include Mario Vs Donkey Kong or Dead or Alive/Ninja Gaiden. It is canon to both franchises and feats/scaling may be used if they are consistent.
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  • The works must be written by a single same person. | By a company, unclear if it is by a person.
  • There should not be considerable contradictions in the respective displayed power levels for the compared characters. | still in discussion
  • The statements need to clearly have been intended seriously. | still in discussion
  • The compared characters must share a similar nature in terms of types of powers. | still in discussion
It seems that the primary counter-argument revolves around clothing, but have there been any debates about the discrepancies in their powers and statistics? Are there any notable differences between them?

Also, I would like to ask something that someone else asked which caught my attention
  • Whether the 2019 interview can be used as evidence for the 2021 comics canon status (by Deagnox)
@WeeklyBattles did they refer to something specific, or was their statement vague and general? Additionally, were the references authored by the same person (excluding the company)? Since according to guidelines, they need to be written by a single person.

In my personal opinion and from my perspective, it is somewhat difficult to accept the existence of three continuations, while the intermediate one was non-canonical. However, I request further input and discussion on whether they fulfill the requirements for a canon crossover as defined by VSBW.
 
ImmortalDread said:
Since I have been asked to give my input in dms and some servers, I will try to grasp the idea and its counter-perspective.

So here are standards of the VSBW that are relevant to the discussion:
To understand this, I need to understand what is the verse, its plot and the issue. So this is the verse page and this is how I understood:
RWBY follows the story of four girls who attend Beacon Academy to train to battle creatures known as the "Creatures of Grimm" in the world of Remnant. The series also revolves around a conflict between two opposing deities and the discovery of a mysterious element called Dust.

And this is Justice league action verse. Justice League Action features short and action-packed episodes of the Justice League fighting against evil forces. The episodes are mostly standalone, except for the first four that tell one story.
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Small correction, its actually DC Comics that the movie crossover over with, not Justice League Action. The comic however doesnt cross over with anything, all of the characters are completely original to RWBY and are just based on DC characters.
ImmortalDread said:
Before we begin, I would like to suggest that we recognize the concept of crossovers in VSBW and familiarize ourselves with its guidelines.
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Ye, in the case of these stories in particular it actually falls more under one-sided crossover:

Onesided crossovers officially take place within one continuity, but not the other. Given that some characters may be parodies of their original counterparts, they could potentially get a separate profile scaling from the other verse based on their importance to the story.
ImmortalDread said:
  • The works must be written by a single same person. | Done
  • There should not be considerable contradictions in the respective displayed power levels for the compared characters. | still in discussion
  • The statements need to clearly have been intended seriously. | still in discussion
  • The compared characters must share a similar nature in terms of types of powers. | still in discussion
It seems that the primary counter-argument revolves around clothing, but have there been any debates about the discrepancies in their powers and statistics? Are there any notable differences between them?
Click to expand...
On top of clothes, like i mentioned above, half of the members of the justice league in the film are a different species than the comic versions (Diana in the comic is a robot, in the film she's a human, Barry in the comic is a tortoise/human hybrid, in the film he's human, Bruce in the comic only has bat ears, in the film he has huge bat wings, etc.) as well as Jessica Cruz being two feet shorter and a completely different skin tone, and Arthur Curry being in the comic, whileVixen takes his place in the film.

The cast in the comic are Large Building level and Hypersonic, while in the film they are Small City level and FTL, as the film takes place later in the storyline than the comic and has different scaling as a result.

Ability-wise, Bruce in the comic has the ability to hyperanalyze things in the environment, while in the film Batman can just straight up see through walls and see through illusions, and Jessica in the comic just creates green lantern constructs, while in the film her ability is the power to reset altered parts of reality
ImmortalDread said:
Also, I would like to ask something that someone else asked which caught my attention
  • Whether the 2019 interview can be used as evidence for the 2021 comics canon status (by Deagnox)
@WeeklyBattles did they refer to something specific, or was their statement vague and general? Additionally, were the references authored by the same person (excluding the company)? Since according to guidelines, they need to be written by a single person.
Click to expand...
All of the RWBY comics produced by DC are written by the same person, Marguerite Bennett, and are co-written and overseen by Kerry Shawcross, one of the lead writers for RWBY. The movie was written by Meghan Fitzmartin and co-written by Kerry, who also acted as both director and producer for the film.
ImmortalDread said:
In my personal opinion and from my perspective, it is somewhat difficult to accept the existence of three continuations, while the intermediate one was non-canonical. However, I request further input and discussion on whether they fulfill the requirements for a canon crossover as defined by VSBW.
Click to expand...
Theyre not canon crossovers, theyre one-sided crossovers, akin to Dante being canon in Shin Megami Tensei but SMT is not canon to DMC. Summing the plots of the three crossovers up:
  • The first comic takes place between seasons 2 and 3 of RWBY, features a team of huntsmen native to Remnant who are loosely based on the justice league in design and appearance (they dont even go by 'The Justice League' until the last page of the comic), and the storyline involves Team RWBY and the JL fighting off a RWBYized version of Starro from taking control of the world.
  • The film takes place during a timeskip sequence in volume 7, features Team RWBY, Team JNPR. and the actual Justice League from the DC universe pulled into a simulation of Remnant, with the Justice League turned into teenagers as a result, and the storyline involves fighting Killgore, who was working with someone from Remnant to trap the teams in said simulation.
  • The second comic is fully non-canon and has Team RWBY and the DC universe fused into one, with Team RWBY working with the Justice League to fix everything.
 
Just a heads up, the proposal isn't to make this a Canon crossover; as in would mean to be canon to both RWBY AND DC Comics. The intention is to just make this exclusively canon to RWBY; which would be a One-Sided crossover. We aren't carrying over any feats to DC Comics nor is any DC Comics feats being carried over to this. It's just being carried over to RWBY specifically. Basically on the crossovers page, the comparison being used is Dante appearing in Shin Megami Tensei 3 who despite being very similar in appearance, personality, and backstory as his DMC counterpart, he is much stronger via powerscaling compared to his original DMC and thus we aren't upgrading DMC to 1-A via that. Though another difference is that the RWBY versions of the JL clearly much weaker than the actual DC Superheroes from DC comics thus no one is upgrading RWBY to 4-B or whatever we decide to do with the DC heralds.
 
Thanks for the explanation, then I will check the scans and the information if they are accurate and understand the reasoning from the opponent.
 
No problem, youve got time, we're still waiting to hear back from Damage, Ovens, Maverick, and Fire too so this wont be over for a while
 
Antvasima said:
Deagonx seems to make sense to me here.
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How so? His argument is based solely on the vague aesthetics of the characters, deems the comic non-canon solely because Team RWBy didnt recognize a group of people theyve never met, and completely disregards the fact that the comic is directly referenced in the show
 
WeeklyBattles said:
All of the RWBY comics produced by DC are written by the same person, Marguerite Bennett, and are co-written and overseen by Kerry Shawcross, one of the lead writers for RWBY. The movie was written by Meghan Fitzmartin and co-written by Kerry, who also acted as both director and producer for the film.
Click to expand...
May you cite the sources?
 
WeeklyBattles said:
How so? His argument is based solely on the vague aesthetics of the characters, deems the comic non-canon solely because Team RWBy didnt recognize a group of people theyve never met, and completely disregards the fact that the comic is directly referenced in the show
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You already made your views clear. Are you going to snipe every staff member that agrees with me to remind them of your opinions on the matter?
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Waiting on this, or was it included in your post above and I missed it?
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Just a heads up that I referenced the memory loss in the OP, but it wasn't as dramatic as is being implied, and Maverick having also seen the movie still felt that it was a contradiction
 
Deagonx said:
Just a heads up that I referenced the memory loss in the OP, but it wasn't as dramatic as is being implied, and Maverick having also seen the movie still felt that it was a contradiction
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Nevertheless, if they feel it's an important piece to their arguments, they should be able to post them with their interpretation, for us to see which one aligns more with the events.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Ye, I posted the clip of the lore video directly referencing cyborg's mission in my big response post
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What? You said it was in the show. The only thing you linked to was from a mini-series, not RWBY the show.

Also, I don't see how it could be referencing the comic? That video was posted on Mar 21, 2020. The crossover comic was published a year later.
 
Deagonx said:
What? You said it was in the show. The only thing you linked to was from a mini-series, not RWBY the show.

Also, I don't see how it could be referencing the comic? That video was posted on Mar 21, 2020. The crossover comic was published a year later.
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Yes, the lore video that is fully canon to the show
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Yes, the lore video that is fully canon to the show
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Weekly, it is extremely problematic for you to leave out additional information like that when you directly lie to a staff member and say:
WeeklyBattles said:
the comic is directly referenced in the show
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When what you actually meant is that an event in a supplemental series you claim but haven't proven is canon to the show is referenced by the comic, that came later.

The video does not reference the comic, it references an event that the comic also references. It can't have referred to the comic, because it's older than it by an entire year. And most important of all, that video is not the show.

This was extremely dishonest. This is not a question of whether your ad-hoc rationalizations are valid, so do not reply to me attempting to justify them. The fact remains in any case that you cannot leave out those details when presenting that information, because you leave the reader with an incorrect conclusion and do not allow them to scrutinize the additional reasoning that went into it. Do not do that again.
 
Deagonx said:
Weekly, it is extremely problematic for you to leave out additional information like that when you directly lie to a staff member and say:

When what you actually meant is that an event in a supplemental series you claim but haven't proven is canon to the show is referenced by the comic, that came later.

The video does not reference the comic, it references an event that the comic also references. It can't have referred to the comic, because it's older than it by an entire year. And most important of all, that video is not the show.

This was extremely dishonest.
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I don't think it was that level of serious. But yes, should've clarified better.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
I don't think it was that level of serious. But yes, should've clarified better.
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If this was the first time, I would agree, but he has been doing this repeatedly, to the point where I can no longer overlook it as unintentional.
 
Deagonx said:
If this was the first time, I would agree, but he has been doing this repeatedly, to the point where I can no longer overlook it as unintentional.
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Because naturally Weekly came to a conclusion, so he's giving his perspective. It's not an intentional lie nor some sort of manipulation, but simply giving an interpretation that may or may not be fully indicative of the events as presented. Which is why we simply ask for evidence, which Weekly has been more than reasonable to present.

Also, those comments serve nothing except escalate the situation. I'd prefer to keep this civil.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Because naturally Weekly came to a conclusion, so he's giving his perspective. It's not an intentional lie nor some sort of manipulation
Click to expand...
I disagree. He isn't simply sharing a subjective assessment of canonicity, he described the information in a way that was both A) Definitively untrue and B) If true, would make his argument much better than it is.

The comic was not referenced by the show, at all. That "World of Remnant" supplemental series is not the show, and this phrase isn't justified by it allegedly being canon to the show. Second, he left out the fact that this video is a year older than the comic, and what he actually means is that they both reference the same event. When he makes it sound like the video itself referenced it, you arrive at a false conclusion, but one that is very convenient for him.

I think this goes beyond a minor misunderstanding, oversight, or just giving ones opinion. And given that he has flubbed details like that in the past, I do not want to give him another pass on it or let it go unmentioned.
 
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