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Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)

Tarang123 said:
Well no that's not true. Apophatic Theology is supposed to be indescribable, yes, but that doesn't mean you can't scale above it. Unless I missed something that doesn't seem right
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In a verse that has apophatic theology, it automatically becomes the most powerful. It's supposed to be absolute and incomprehensible but even what i just said now already discredits apopathic Theology. Why do you think Ultima wanted to make it tier 0? It's because of stuffs like this. In its truest form, AT is beyond beyond tiering because the notion of tiering doesn't apply to apophatic theology. It surpasses it entirely. There can't be anything more powerful than an apophatic being. It only discredits the nature of apophatic theology which is supposed to be unreachable.
 
Ultra_instinct_issei said:
so R/F difference can bypass apophatic theology, then? since even an apophatic being would be just fiction
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Not really. In a fictional setting, Apophatic Theology has no layers nor can it be reached by r>f layers. It's completely surpasses everything in existence. We are real life humans so of course we have a natural r>f over fictional characters with apophatic theology. But did you forget that God himself exists in the real world and he's apophatic as well?

Irl God>humans>Fictional Apophatic theology>fictional r>f
 
Tarang123 said:
Yeah, but that's on a very meta level. Obviously we're above the Root. That's just common sense
Click to expand...
Actually, not really?
One argument that arose from Apophatic Theology is that God doesn't exist, because existing itself is a characteristic of his creation, and therefore he's above that. So, at least RL Apophatic Theology and the God it tries to described is above that, as it should be above ANY and ALL dualities.
 
Tdjwo said:
In a verse that has apophatic theology, it automatically becomes the most powerful. It's supposed to be absolute and incomprehensible but even what i just said now already discredits apopathic Theology. Why do you think Ultima wanted to make it tier 0? It's because of stuffs like this. In its truest form, AT is beyond beyond tiering because the notion of tiering doesn't apply to apophatic theology. It surpasses it entirely. There can't be anything more powerful than an apophatic being. It only discredits the nature of apophatic theology which is supposed to be unreachable.
Click to expand...
It's Tier 0 if you take it to the absolute maximum interpretation, which includes it being indescribable to size.
 
LehenDuo said:
Actually, not really?
One argument that arose from Apophatic Theology is that God doesn't exist, because existing itself is a characteristic of his creation, and therefore he's above that. So, at least RL Apophatic Theology and the God it tries to described is above that, as it should be above ANY and ALL dualities.
Click to expand...
Sure, but that's not the same as a real life human being above a fictional character, which the Root objectively is. A human being came up with it in a fictional work
 
Tarang123 said:
It's Tier 0 if you take it to the absolute maximum interpretation, which includes it being indescribable to size.
Click to expand...
Like the Root being described as being one single "thing" but having no limits, and therefore, lacking the thing that defines unity?

Tarang123 said:
Sure, but that's not the same as a real life human being above a fictional character, which the Root objectively is. A human being came up with it in a fictional work
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If you accept that Root to be the thing it is described it is, it would be above even this. But you would have to accept the verse "as truth".
It really isn't even a creation, but an adaptation of a concept that has existed from millenia, I mean.
 
Tdjwo said:
Not really. In a fictional setting, Apophatic Theology has no layers nor can it be reached by r>f layers. It's completely surpasses everything in existence. We are real life humans so of course we have a natural r>f over fictional characters with apophatic theology. But did you forget that God himself exists in the real world and he's apophatic as well?

Irl God>humans>Fictional Apophatic theology>fictional r>f
Click to expand...
If you consider real life humans as above fictional apophatic theology, wouldn't author avatars like grant morrison be above fictional Apophatic theology?
 
LehenDuo said:
If you accept that Root to be the thing it is described it is, it would be above even this. But you would have to accept the verse "as truth".
It really isn't even a creation, but an adaptation of a concept that has existed from millenia, I mean.
Click to expand...
No it's not. That's stupid. A fictional character was described as being apophatic by its author. That doesn't make the fictional character above the author. The argument is literal nonsense
 
Tarang123 said:
No it's not. That's stupid. A fictional character was described as being apophatic by its author. That doesn't make the fictional character above the author. The argument is literal nonsense
Click to expand...

I just cannot understand how people just choose to completely ignore parts of the arguments of others and then reply things that make not sense. "But you would have to accept the verse "as truth"" was added to the post with a purpose.

At this point you are not even replying to what I wrote.
 
Tdjwo said:
How many verse have Negative Theology? Only ones I know are;
  • Nasuverse
  • Self Reference Engine
  • Journey to the west
Click to expand...
Since when does journey to the west have that, unsong has negative theology and elder scrolls ehh the original cm has it
Ultra_instinct_issei said:
Cthulu mythos has negative theology? Would love an elabroation if you don't mind, but i assume it has something to do with supreme archetype
Click to expand...
It does have implications but it's poorly implemented and not explained properly, I remember they said azathoth exists in a realm thats Inconceivable and no lips dare speak of his name aloud which seems in line with the ineffability thesis.

Supreme archetype could be argued to have that but that's also poorly implemented, because the only statements of it are things like "above logic and above conception" which is not enough to say that thing has negative theology.
Tarang123 said:
There are quite a few iirc. I know Twin Peaks has it for one. DC could probably have it through Overvoid.
Click to expand...
I don't know about twin peaks but DC doesn't have negative theology.
Tarang123 said:
You can scale above someone with Apophatic Theology iirc. You just can't be apophatic to them. Otherwise it just becomes the same cringe omnipotence we stopped using
Click to expand...
Can you give me an example as to how you'd scale above negative theology? because that's an inherent contradiction to it.
Tarang123 said:
I mean, yes and no. Yes as in it's a cool concept (one that fits the idea that even if God existed, we wouldn't be able to understand its existence), and no that it's different from omnipotence cause it's literally about God, who is omnipotent. This is just one such quality of his
Click to expand...
No, omnipotence if we exclude how fiction; represents would just be something that scales to logical possible worlds and can do any logical possible as a necessary being negative theology is still above that by technicality.
Tarang123 said:
Well no that's not true. Apophatic Theology is supposed to be indescribable, yes, but that doesn't mean you can't scale above it. Unless I missed something that doesn't seem right
Click to expand...
You can't at all without contradicting it unfortunately, because if something Inverse atleast scales above it some fundamental truth about that Ineffable being exist in correspondence to reality; that being that it scales below some other being.
Tarang123 said:
Well no, not really because Omnipotence quite literally means all-powerful. What you're describing is literally that, to the point where you've even said that being stronger than someone with apophasis contradicts the very nature of apophasis.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure omnipotence is all-power because it can affect all logical possibilities/possible worlds, it can't go beyond the confines of that to affect impossible worlds.

I remember talking with someone knowledgeable philosophy, quantum mechanics and mathematics at an academic level. He told me he believed either bohms implicate and explicate order scales at the very least to negative theology and also pataphysics which I didn't believe, but the general consensus was that it's actually plausible.
LehenDuo said:
Actually, not really?
One argument that arose from Apophatic Theology is that God doesn't exist, because existing itself is a characteristic of his creation, and therefore he's above that. So, at least RL Apophatic Theology and the God it tries to described is above that, as it should be above ANY and ALL dualities.
Click to expand...
Oh ye the predicate [exist] doesn't apply to it but similarly the predicate [nonexistent] doesn't apply to it too
Tarang123 said:
No it's not. That's stupid. A fictional character was described as being apophatic by its author. That doesn't make the fictional character above the author. The argument is literal nonsense
Click to expand...
It was never described as Apopathic tho? If it was that was a shit implementation of it, in the nasuverse even for the author it was difficult to pronounce [] so they went out of their way to use [kara]. If a verse implements negative theology perfectly like Unsong excluding the nasuverse then describing it as indescribable is not enough to be Apophatic to begin with hence it would be a shit way to implement it.
 
Theoretical said:
Since when does journey to the west have that, unsong has negative theology and elder scrolls ehh the original cm has it

It does have implications but it's poorly implemented and not explained properly, I remember they said azathoth exists in a realm thats Inconceivable and no lips dare speak of his name aloud which seems in line with the ineffability thesis.

Supreme archetype could be argued to have that but that's also poorly implemented, because the only statements of it are things like "above logic and above conception" which is not enough to say that thing has negative theology.
Click to expand...
Speaking of shit implementations, if a realm is said to be unknowable and indescribable to the point it cannot be even called a place and a realm of absolute silence, would that be vaguely imply negative theology?
 
Ultra_instinct_issei said:
Speaking of shit implementations, if a realm is said to be unknowable and indescribable to the point it cannot be even called a place and a realm of absolute silence, would that be vaguely imply negative theology?
Click to expand...
If there's some indication that said description itself doesn't actually directly refers to the place, that is, if the "unknowable and indescribable" isn't just thrown around as a way to say something is really strange (Lovecraft, I see you doing this), I think you could call it something similar to negative theology.

But, negative theology, generally, has the built-in idea that whatever you are trying to refer to is "the ONE", as in, a type of creator or source of everything, either by literally being all those things in somewhat archetypical form (Nasu's Root would fit this very well, but Kabbalah's Ain is also a pretty good fit) or by being the origin of everything else (Abrahamic Religions' God).

Using the case in point you described - It could very well be that said place is unknowable and indescribable because the beings lack the proper sense or cognition. Using a very simplistic analogy, colors are unknowable and indescribable to a blind person, but that is because the blind person lacks the necessary organ/faculty, not because of an intrinsic property of colors.

TL;DR Apophatic Theology is hard
 
Last edited:
Theoretical said:
It was never described as Apopathic tho? If it was that was a shit implementation of it, in the nasuverse even for the author it was difficult to pronounce [] so they went out of their way to use [kara]. If a verse implements negative theology perfectly like Unsong excluding the nasuverse then describing it as indescribable is not enough to be Apophatic to begin with hence it would be a shit way to implement it.
Click to expand...
It's not that it is a shit implementation, the problem is that it is a implementation of Wuji. But western people generally do not know much about Eastern philosophy/religion, and then just equate it to the closest western thing they know, and that would be Apophatic Theology.

It's not the "even for the author" it is difficult to pronounce, I would actully say Nasu has a very good grasp and understanding of the philosophy underpinning all this. The point is that naming it AT ALL misses the point. It has no name and cannot be called by any name - Saber Ryougi even says something like this is a place for things without name, in FGO, I think it was in KNK event.
 
AizenSosuke said:
🌚Where Nasuverse really scales
Tier Zero root and shiki and 1A Gilga and artoria for me
Click to expand...
NLF victim
Ultra_instinct_issei said:
Speaking of shit implementations, if a realm is said to be unknowable and indescribable to the point it cannot be even called a place and a realm of absolute silence, would that be vaguely imply negative theology?
Click to expand...
Indescribable and unknowable isn't negative theology in itself, but if you combine it with absolute silence it would entail negative theology.

Assuming it's not contradicted in the source material and it's consistent.
LehenDuo said:
if the "unknowable and indescribable" isn't just thrown around as a way to say something is really strange (Lovecraft, I see you doing this)
Click to expand...
True
LehenDuo said:
But, negative theology, generally, has the built-in idea that whatever you are trying to refer to is "the ONE", as in, a type of creator or source of everything, either by literally being all those things in somewhat archetypical form (Nasu's Root would fit this very well, but Kabbalah's Ain is also a pretty good fit) or by being the origin of everything else (Abrahamic Religions' God).
Click to expand...
"The One" from neoplatonism also fits pretty well
LehenDuo said:
Using the case in point you described - It could very well be that said place is unknowable and indescribable because the beings lack the proper sense or cognition. Using a very simplistic analogy, colors are unknowable and indescribable to a blind person, but that is because the blind person lacks the necessary organ/faculty, not because of an intrinsic property of colors.
Click to expand...
^^
LehenDuo said:
It's not that it is a shit implementation, the problem is that it is a implementation of Wuji. But western people generally do not know much about Eastern philosophy/religion, and then just equate it to the closest western thing they know, and that would be Apophatic Theology.

It's not the "even for the author" it is difficult to pronounce, I would actully say Nasu has a very good grasp and understanding of the philosophy underpinning all this. The point is that naming it AT ALL misses the point. It has no name and cannot be called by any name - Saber Ryougi even says something like this is a place for things without name, in FGO, I think it was in KNK event.
Click to expand...
No the nasuverse implements it perfectly fine along with Unsong, an example of a bad implementation of it is something like lovecraft, I'm aware nasu has a very good understanding of negative theology.
 
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