Madara's electric booglaoo 2

[Suigetsuhyugs]

We don't know if base naruto can or cant do it cause it happened once when he was in KCM

He was using Kurama arms to do it.

Cause it's still connected to him.

Your soul is attached to you can you touch it?

That's like saying Isshiki should be getting all of Kawakis feats. He shouldn't.

Kawaki is only 80% ishiki everything he does using karma should scale to ishiki unless for jutsus he learns from Naruto, anything he invents or that he gets outside of ishiki's karma doesnt scale.

 

[KingogKings777]

He was using Kurama arms to do it.

Both him and the chakra arms were grabbing onto it. Not just the chakra arms.

Your soul is attached to you can you touch it?

Depends on your belief system.

Kawaki is only 80% ishiki everything he does using karma should scale to ishiki unless for jutsus he learns from Naruto, anything he invents or that he gets outside of ishiki's karma doesnt scale.

So if Kawaki displays using Isshikis jutsu in a different way you would give that to Isshiki even though he hasn't?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Both him and the chakra arms were grabbing onto it. Not just the chakra arms.

But the chakra arms are grabbing, unless you can prove Naruto had a soul touching ability before its all because of kurama

Depends on your belief system.

It doesnt because the "belief system" here is vsb wiki rules

So if Kawaki displays using Isshikis jutsu in a different way you would give that to Isshiki even though he hasn't?

Unless its stated that Kawaki created it, then it does

 

[Lynieryz]

the chakra arms have both Naruto's and Kurama's chakra don't they?

 

[Godernet]

the chakra arms have both Naruto's and Kurama's chakra don't they?

not in this initial KCM. Naruto has to shelf his own chakra to use Kurama's since he stole it from him.

 

[Godernet]

We don't know if base naruto can or cant do it cause it happened once when he was in KCM.

so what you're saying is there's not proof this is Naruto's ability.

Ah so will you be proving proof of your claim?

the burden is on you to prove since you're trying to remove an ability that makes sense within the context of how Kurama's chakra is used.

That's like saying Isshiki should be getting all of Kawakis feats. He shouldn't.

no that's not the same thing at all. because there's no precedence for other vessels of Isshiki being granted access to all his powers. If there was then Kawaki would have more of an argument to have all of his powers.

Is it passive or is it an ability make up your mind please.

the ability is not something that he has to activate. he has it just by existing in KCM so it's passive. have you never heard of a passive ability before?

You would be using them if they existed in the first place, but it seems they don't.

No, I'm just lazy and didn't feel the argument was good enough to grab one but I'll humor you with one scan.

this is Gyuki explaining that in KCM, Naruto won't be able to use his own chakra due to discarding it to be able to use Kurama's stolen chakra.

So when he grabbed his soul back from Nagato he only had Kurama's chakra to perform this feat.

Even if you wanna argue Naruto could do it in Base (no proof of this anyways) this shows that the feat can be done with exclusively Kurama's Chakra.

Juubito and Juubidara both have Kurama's chakra as well as chakra arms that Naruto and every other Jinchuuriki are able to use.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Seems fine at a glance, but I'll wait for Deceived on second and third point.

 

[KingogKings777]

so what you're saying is there's not proof this is Naruto's ability.
the ability is not something that he has to activate. he has it just by existing in KCM so it's passive. have you never heard of a passive ability before?

You just said it was ability then said it was passive then it had to be activated? Make up your mind dude.

the burden is on you to prove since you're trying to remove an ability that makes sense within the context of how Kurama's chakra is used.

It doesn't make sense for anyone but Naruto to have it since he's the only one who did it.

no that's not the same thing at all. because there's no precedence for other vessels of Isshiki being granted access to all his powers. If there was then Kawaki would have more of an argument to have all of his powers.

No I'm talking about Isshiki getting Kawaki's feats not the other way around.

No, I'm just lazy and didn't feel the argument was good enough to grab one but I'll humor you with one scan.

this is Gyuki explaining that in KCM, Naruto won't be able to use his own chakra due to discarding it to be able to use Kurama's stolen chakra.

So when he grabbed his soul back from Nagato he only had Kurama's chakra to perform this feat.

Even if you wanna argue Naruto could do it in Base (no proof of this anyways) this shows that the feat can be done with exclusively Kurama's Chakra.

Juubito and Juubidara both have Kurama's chakra as well as chakra arms that Naruto and every other Jinchuuriki are able to use.

Damn, I got to say it's not like something happened and there isn't any scans being left out. Oh wait there is. Makes you think that the one scan is provided got disproven within no time flat.

 

[KingogKings777]

Seems fine at a glance, but I'll wait for Deceived on second and third point.

Deceived cares more about arc then he cares about me.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

You just said it was ability then said it was passive then it had to be activated? Make up your mind dude.

Ability and passive arent exclusive, active abilities and passive abilities are what you have no ideia what it is.

It doesn't make sense for anyone but Naruto to have it since he's the only one who did it.

He wasnt the only one who can interact with the soul just recently we had a tsunade thread of how she can even heal soul, Kurama chakra allowed Naruto to touch the soul.

Damn, I got to say it's not like something happened and there isn't any scans being left out. Oh wait there is. Makes you think that the one scan is provided got disproven within no time flat.

Naruto didnt even knew about that

 

[Godernet]

You just said it was ability then said it was passive then it had to be activated? Make up your mind dude.

a passive abilities exist. its a passive product of being in KCM.

It doesn't make sense for anyone but Naruto to have it since he's the only one who did it.

Not when the only way he could was Kyuubi Chakra.

for one this happens way after his fight with Nagato and Itachi we don't actually know when he stopped siphoning chakra(most likely happened when they had a common enemy after Madara was revived so still after Nagato fight)

Also, all Gyuki says here is that Kurama stopped trying to take Naruto's chakra not that Naruto could all of a sudden use his own. KCM still only uses Kurama's chakra while his own is shelved until he and Kurama bond and the 8 trigram seal is undone.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Deceived cares more about arc then he cares about me.

damn sad

 

[KingogKings777]

Ability and passive arent exclusive, active abilities and passive abilities are what you have no ideia what it is.

I'm not the one whos mixing and matching here though.

He wasnt the only one who can interact with the soul just recently we had a tsunade thread of how she can even heal soul, Kurama chakra allowed Naruto to touch the soul.

I wonder why theres a CRT downgrade for her. At most for this thread Madara would keep NPI as Jubi.

Naruto didnt even knew about that

And that changes anything how?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I'm not the one whos mixing and matching here though.

You are asking if its an ability or a passive lol

I wonder why theres a CRT downgrade for her. At most for this thread Madara would keep NPI as Jubi.

Which most disagree to begin with and as far as you can use its still on her profile.

And that changes anything how?

First as it was pointed that happened much after his fight with Nagato around 20 chapters after to be more exact.
Second, if Naruto were to be able to use his own chakra he would have to consciously get it not knowing means he couldnt have used it.

 

[KingogKings777]

a passive abilities exist. its a passive product of being in KCM.

Are you sticking with it being passive or not.

Not when the only way he could was Kyuubi Chakra.

It's still only Naruto whos doing it.

for one this happens way after his fight with Nagato and Itachi we don't actually know when he stopped siphoning chakra(most likely happened when they had a common enemy after Madara was revived so still after Nagato fight)
Also, all Gyuki says here is that Kurama stopped trying to take Naruto's chakra not that Naruto could all of a sudden use his own. KCM still only uses Kurama's chakra while his own is shelved until he and Kurama bond and the 8 trigram seal is undone.

We do know when it likely happened though. Since it shows a flash back to chapter 539 and we know that Naruto is using clones. So common sense marks around that place he stopped taking Naruto's chakra. It's even stated from the amount of shadow clones he's produced he should have been half dead long ago.

 

[KingogKings777]

You are asking if its an ability or a passive lol

Yes cause someone cough gord was switching them.

Which most disagree to begin with and as far as you can use its still on her profile.

And it's still going.

First as it was pointed that happened much after his fight with Nagato around 20 chapters after to be more exact.
Second, if Naruto were to be able to use his own chakra he would have to consciously get it not knowing means he couldnt have used it.

It wasn't after his fight that he stopped taking his chakra though seeing as he should be half dead already.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Yes cause someone cough gord was switching them.

Its not switching because an ability can be passive, it can be both passive and an ability.

And it's still going.

untouched for like 3 days while most people disagree

It wasn't after his fight that he stopped taking his chakra though seeing as he should be half dead already.

No, dude he would only "be half dead" if Kurama had drainned Naruto's chakra which Hachibi thought by now Kurama would have drainned Naruto's chakra leaving Naruto dead. So that doesnt mean Naruto was using his own chakra he was still using Kurama's.

 

[Godernet]

Are you sticking with it being passive or not.

considering I've only been calling it a passive ability for the past 10 comments.

It's still only Naruto whos doing it.

doesn't matter if Kurama's chakra is what's necessary. Naruto doing it is the precedence. Kurama's chakra is the source. So anyone with access to Kurama's chakra would have this capability

We do know when it likely happened though. Since it shows a flash back to chapter 539 and we know that Naruto is using clones. So common sense marks around that place he stopped taking Naruto's chakra. It's even stated from the amount of shadow clones he's produced he should have been half dead long ago.

Gyuki didn't say he couldn't use clones at all. He said to avoid it because the chakra drain would be even worse. Just because he was making clones does not mean Kurama stopped taking chakra.

And again that doesn't matter because he still can't use his own chakra in KCM at this stage. He has to shelf it to enter KCM which was my main point.

 

[KingogKings777]

Its not switching because an ability can be passive, it can be both passive and an ability.

proof that the ability exists(Naruto performing the feat), and shown how the ability is obtained(KCM aka Kurama)
it's passive because he does not use a jutsu or ability to allow him to touch the souls, he just reaches for his soul and grabs it in KCM.

?

untouched for like 3 days while most people disagree

Thats a them problem, been trying to get more input on it.

No, dude he would only "be half dead" if Kurama had drainned Naruto's chakra which Hachibi thought by now Kurama would have drainned Naruto's chakra leaving Naruto dead. So that doesnt mean Naruto was using his own chakra he was still using Kurama's.

Cause Kurama hasn't been doing it.

 

[Godernet]

?

I think you misunderstood what I said because nowhere in that sentence did I call it anything but a passive ability.

proof that the ability exists(Naruto performing the feat), and shown how the ability is obtained(KCM aka Kurama)

passive abilities are still abilities and the feat in question is Naruto grabbing the soul using the innate ability given to him by KCM. I literally explain it in the next sentence you post.

it's passive because he does not use a jutsu or ability to allow him to touch the souls, he just reaches for his soul and grabs it in KCM.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

?

I have no ideia what you mean.

Thats a them problem, been trying to get more input on it.

No, thats your problem since thats not approved yet as far as everything else goes she has it.

Cause Kurama hasn't been doing it.

Kurama not drainning Naruto doesnt mean Naruto is using his own chakra which he couldnt have since he had no ideia Kurama stopped.
Even if he did knew we have no actual proof of when she stopped drainning it.

 

[Stryker861]

come on king, its pretty ovious kuramas chakra is whats allowing naruto to interact with his soul.

 

[KingogKings777]

come on king, its pretty ovious kuramas chakra is whats allowing naruto to interact with his soul.

If I wanted to I can give on NPI but not soul manip.

 

[KingogKings777]

Bumprioni.

 

[KingogKings777]

Mods plz any spare mods

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

still waiting on Deceived, sorry

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

agree, soul hax out and put NPI as per the soul hax page

 

[KingogKings777]

still waiting on Deceived, sorry

It's like my dad all over again. He's still out there getting that milk.

 

[YoutubeForKing]

Agree with base.

Neutral for soul manip, disagree for nonphysical interaction.

Disagree for last one, the 9 tails is simply a part of the 10 tails anything it is capable of madara should be more than capable of doing too imo + FRA.

 

[Deceived3596]

still waiting on Deceived, sorry

I deadass forgot about this thead ngl.

I'll drop my opinions here shortly, like in a couple hours at most.

 

[Deceived3596]

Necromancy:​

Edo Tensei Requires a sacrifice and DNA of the person you want to bring back. Something Madara doesn't have, but he does have the jutsu itself so he should only get limited Necromancy.

I’m fine with this being downgraded to limited.

Mangekyo Sharingan Madara:​

You're using Itachi's own abilities to grant them to others that have not shown the skills/statements/feats for it. And the formidable looking warrior whose rampaging soul will not settle down until it has destroyed all enemies before him screams hyperbole/flowery language when it states that it's just the physical form of their chakra

You’re making the positive claim that these are inherent characteristics to Itachi’s usage of Susano’o when that isn’t directly implied or stated anywhere, the databook scan in question is in actuality referencing Susano’o in a generalized form, using Itachi as an example since during this period of time only Itachi had shown the capabilities of manifesting a Susano’o, at least a humanoid one. So it’s your burden to prove that these are only inherent characteristics to Itachi in specific when nothing directly proves or implies such anywhere while evidence does exist to the contrary.

The profile doesn’t use the section of that statement as primary evidence through, it’s using the statement that it’s the physical manifestation of chakra as primary evidence since chakra itself is considered to contain spiritual properties within it, that’s why the profile doesn’t reference the “rampaging soul” portion, but does reference the manifestation of chakra portion.

Jubi Jin Madara:​

Naruto only managed to do the feat by playing tug of war with his soul half inside of him something Madara hasn't done here nor anyone else. If you want to keep the limited soul manip for resisting the Edo Tensei being deactivated that's fine.

I don’t see how this matters to the ability in question, it’s explaining that through the usage of Tailed Beast Chakra Arms, one’s capable of interacting with spiritual entities like the soul, such being shown with Naruto. I don’t see why it being half in inside of himself somehow allows something that’s normally intangible to him to become tangible to him, you’re just bringing up a distinction while not explaining why that distinction matters in reference to the mechanics behind the feat.

It's more concrete to assert the reason behind why Naruto was capable of interacting with his soul would be through the usage of Chakra, something that contains spiritual properties and has shown capabilities of interacting on a spiritual level through specific jutsus.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Necromancy:​

I’m fine with this being downgraded to limited.

I do have a problem with this if we change to limited here then we need to change for every edo tensei user because all of them depend on DNA and unless you want to add DNA to standard equipment then none of them have it.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I deadass forgot about this thead ngl.

damn sad

 

[KingogKings777]

Mangekyo Sharingan Madara:​

You’re making the positive claim that these are inherent characteristics to Itachi’s usage of Susano’o when that isn’t directly implied or stated anywhere,

The site is using the same reasoning for granting Itachi Soul Manip and NPI to Madara, it's just a copy and paste from both profiles.

the databook scan in question is in actuality referencing Susano’o in a generalized form, using Itachi as an example since during this period of time only Itachi had shown the capabilities of manifesting a Susano’o, at least a humanoid one. So it’s your burden to prove that these are only inherent characteristics to Itachi in specific when nothing directly proves or implies such anywhere while evidence does exist to the contrary.
The profile doesn’t use the section of that statement as primary evidence through, it’s using the statement that it’s the physical manifestation of chakra as primary evidence since chakra itself is considered to contain spiritual properties within it, that’s why the profile doesn’t reference the “rampaging soul” portion, but does reference the manifestation of chakra portion.

(Users of Susano'o can interact with the soul, as the Susano'o is a physical manifestation of their chakra[59], or soul. Susano'o can also wield spirit weapons, which have no physical form[60][61])

If you want to grant soul manip cause of chakra go do a CRT for the chakra page. But in the mean time chakra is only accepted as mental and physical energy on this site.
There is also no proof that they have soul manipulation which is considered the following.

Soul Manipulation is the ability to interact with one's soul or the souls of others. This ability ranges from being able to project the power of one's soul outward, grasping and ripping the souls of others out of their bodies, outright consuming souls to gain power, among other applications.

The only time Itachi could get the following is with the Totsuka Blade from that one statement about sucking the soul into drunken dreams or something. Madara has never displayed any of the feats or has any statements to grant him Soul Manpiulation.

Jubi Jin Madara:​

I don’t see how this matters to the ability in question, it’s explaining that through the usage of Tailed Beast Chakra Arms, one’s capable of interacting with spiritual entities like the soul, such being shown with Naruto. I don’t see why it being half in inside of himself somehow allows something that’s normally intangible to him to become tangible to him, you’re just bringing up a distinction while not explaining why that distinction matters in reference to the mechanics behind the feat.
It's more concrete to assert the reason behind why Naruto was capable of interacting with his soul would be through the usage of Chakra, something that contains spiritual properties and has shown capabilities of interacting on a spiritual level through specific jutsus.

Naruto is only shown being able to interact with his own soul when it's getting pulled out by the human path and playing tug of war with it when it's still connected to him. You could grant NPI for it, but not soul manip since it doesn't really fall under any of the qualifications for soul manipulation, but it does fall under NPI.

It should be noted that the ability to interact with souls and other non-corporeal entities directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered Non-Physical Interaction and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate them in other contexts.

 

[KingogKings777]

I feel like I'm forgetting something but not sure what.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Completely agreed with KingogKings. All chakra users across the board should not get soul manipulation.

 

[Deceived3596]

The site is using the same reasoning for granting Itachi Soul Manip and NPI to Madara, it's just a copy and paste from both profiles.

Yes?, it's doing that since the justification itself is based around two generalized pieces of evidence, you're making that claim it's only specifically applicable to Itachi when you haven't substantiated why it should.

If you want to grant soul manip cause of chakra go do a CRT for the chakra page. But in the mean time chakra is only accepted as mental and physical energy on this site.
There is also no proof that they have soul manipulation which is considered the following.

I was pretty sure we do accept Chakra as having spiritual components within it, at least from my memory, but if we actively don't, and instead we use the "rampaging soul" shit as justification then i'm fine with removing Soul Manipulation, still find with NPI however given my arguments above.

Naruto is only shown being able to interact with his own soul when it's getting pulled out by the human path and playing tug of war with it when it's still connected to him. You could grant NPI for it, but not soul manip since it doesn't really fall under any of the qualifications for soul manipulation, but it does fall under NPI.

Sure, i'm fine with it just being NPI.

 

[KingogKings777]

Yes?, it's doing that since the justification itself is based around two generalized pieces of evidence, you're making that claim it's only specifically applicable to Itachi when you haven't substantiated why it should.

How does Itachi have Soul Manipulation? Is it from Chakra or from his weapon? Cause he's the biggest issue here since everyone is scaling off of him for Susanoo.

I was pretty sure we do accept Chakra as having spiritual components within it, at least from my memory, but if we actively don't, and instead we use the "rampaging soul" shit as justification then i'm fine with removing Soul Manipulation, still find with NPI however given my arguments above.

I can 100% give on NPI after reading NPI's page and stuff.

Sure, i'm fine with it just being NPI.

Same.

 

[Deceived3596]

How does Itachi have Soul Manipulation? Is it from Chakra or from his weapon? Cause he's the biggest issue here since everyone is scaling off of him for Susanoo.

I was personally guessing it was because he's capable of projecting Chakra in a physical manner, and Chakra was/is considered to have spiritual components, or is considered to be the "soul" of a Shinobi.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

The page for chakra mechanics mentions the spiritual energy using even scans