Madara's electric booglaoo 2

[KingogKings777]

There's no off this wild ride.

Madara abilities that should be changed

Spoiler: Base Madara

Necromancy (Knows how to perform and undo Edo Tensei)

to

Limited Necromancy (Knows how to perform and undo Edo Tensei)

Edo Tensei Requires a sacrifice and DNA of the person you want to bring back. Something Madara doesn't have, but he does have the jutsu itself so he should only get limited Necromancy.

Spoiler: Mangekyō Sharingan Madara

Soul Manipulation and Non-Physical Interaction (Users of Susano'o can interact with the soul, as the Susano'o is a physical manifestation of their chakra[59], or soul. Susano'o can also wield spirit weapons, which have no physical form[60][61])

to

Deletedo

You're using Itachi's own abilities to grant them to others that have not shown the skills/statments/feats for it. And the formidable looking warrior whose rampaging soul will not settle down until it has destroyed all enemies before him screams hyperbole/flowery languege when it states that it's just the physical form of their chakra.

Spoiler: Jūbi Jinchūriki Madara

Soul Manipulation and Non-Physical Interaction with Tailed Beast Chakra Arms (Tailed Beast Chakra Arms users can interact with the soul)

to

Deletedo

Naruto only managed to do the feat by playing tug of war with his soul half inside of him something Madara hasn't done here nor anyone else. If you want to keep the limited soul manip for resisting the Edo Tensei being deactivated that's fine.

Agree	Neutral	Disagree
Ped2018(necromancy), Damage3245, AnimesFreak2(necromancy), W0NDER3X, Lynieryz, speedster352, Godernet(Necro), Stryker861(Necro), LordGriffin1000(Necro), Deceived3596(Necro), Warren_Valion, LephyrTheRevanchist(Necro), Shadowbokunohero(Necro),	AnimesFreak2(all but necro), Godernet(Soul Manip Susano), LordGriffin1000(MS Madara), NaruRiasUzumaki, LordGriffin1000(netural leaning agree on second one),	Ped2018(all but necro), Tdjwo, theultimate5105, Godernet(NPI and Soul Manip tug of war), Stryker861(all but necro), LordGriffin1000(Leaning disagree for last one), Deceived3596(Second and third), Shadowbokunohero(second and third),

 

[Ped2018]

I agree with the necromancy one, disagree with the rest

 

[Tdjwo]

Disagree with everything.

 

[theultimate5105]

Disagree with everything

 

[Damage3245]

The changes seem reasonable to me.

 

[AnimesFreak2]

Agree with the 1st part on necromancy

Neutral on the 2nd and 3rd part since I am pretty sure there was a CRT that accepted why Susanoo users can do such a thing but I will wait

 

[W0NDER3X]

Changes seem to make sense.

 

[Lynieryz]

Agree FRA

 

[speedster352]

Agree fra

 

[Godernet]

There's no off this wild ride.

Madara abilities that should be changed
Edo Tensei Requires a sacrifice and DNA of the person you want to bring back. Something Madara doesn't have, but he does have the jutsu itself so he should only get limited Necromancy.

I agree with the limited necromancy

You're using Itachi's own abilities to grant them to others that have not shown the skills/statments/feats for it. And the formidable looking warrior whose rampaging soul will not settle down until it has destroyed all enemies before him screams hyperbole/flowery languege when it states that it's just the physical form of their chakra.

Neutral on Soul Manipulation for EMS Susanoo but disagree with Non-Physical Interaction since iirc all the Susanoo use spirit weapons they have to conjure with their chakra.

to

Naruto only managed to do the feat by playing tug of war with his soul half inside of him something Madara hasn't done here nor anyone else. If you want to keep the limited soul manip for resisting the Edo Tensei being deactivated that's fine.

Hard Disagree with this ,

Naruto has this ability due to his Nine-Tails chakra form and it was just a passive ability of Kurama's chakra not even a jutsu exclusive to Naruto.

Madara in this form is not only the jinchuuriki of the Nine-Tails, but of every other Tailed Beast. Not to mention he still has the Rinnegan so he would still be able to touch souls with the Human Path, and as we've seen with Obito and Naruto you can perform Jutsu with your chakra arms so his Chakra Arms would be able to grab souls either through his Human Path or him being the Ten-Tails Jinchuuriki.

 

[KingogKings777]

Neutral on Soul Manipulation for EMS Susanoo but disagree with Non-Physical Interaction since iirc all the Susanoo have spirit weapons they have to conjure up.

Only Itachi has spirit weapons, noone else does. They have weapons but they not soul weapons.

Hard Disagree with this ,

Naruto has this ability due to his Nine-Tails chakra form and it was just a passive ability of Kurama's chakra not even a jutsu exclusive to Naruto.

Yes Naruto is able to do it. Now why don't you show or give a statement of the others being capable of doing it other then assuming they can.

Madara in this form is not only the jinchuuriki of the Nine-Tails, but of every other Tailed Beast. Not to mention he still has the Rinnegan so he would still be able to touch souls with the Human Path,

This isn't touching the Rinnegan soul manip, he would still have it under those sections.

and as we've seen with Obito and Naruto you can perform Jutsu with your chakra arms so his Chakra Arms would be able to grab souls either way through his Human Path or him being the Ten-Tails Jinchuuriki.

I'm fine with Obito/Madara having Soul Manip through the Paths but not with Ten-Tails Jinchuuriki being able to do it since there is no supporting evidence for them to do it.

 

[Godernet]

Only Itachi has spirit weapons, noone else does. They have weapons but they not soul weapons.

what are the other susanoo weapons made out of then?

Yes Naruto is able to do it. Now why don't you show or give a statement of the others being capable of doing it other then assuming they can.

you keep trying to put emphasis on Naruto like he's the one with the ability to touch souls when it's Kurama's chakra that allows him to grab the soul. Naruto didn't cast a jutsu to grab the soul or have any ability to do so outside of KCM.

If you think Madara doesn't have the same ability you need to be able to prove that this is a Naruto-exclusive ability and that the Nine Tails chakra was irrelevant to him grabbing the soul which would be untrue.

 

[KingogKings777]

what are the other susanoo weapons made out of then?

Chakra.

you keep trying to put emphasis on Naruto like he's the one with the ability to touch souls when it's Kurama's chakra that allows him to grab the soul. Naruto didn't cast a jutsu to grab the soul or have any ability to do so outside of KCM.

If you think Madara doesn't have the same ability you need to be able to prove that this is a Naruto-exclusive ability and that the Nine Tails chakra was irrelevant to him grabbing the soul which would be untrue.

Why not prove that they can do it? I've already proved that only Naruto can since it's shown he can do it, and none of the others haven't or have the statements to. So prove your positive and stop asking me to prove your point for you. That's your job not mine.

 

[Godernet]

Chakra.

Itachi's totsuka blade was formed from his chakra. even the susanoos in general are completely made of chakra.

Why not prove that they can do it? I've already proved that only Naruto can since it's shown he can do it, and none of the others haven't or have the statements to. So prove your positive and stop asking me to prove your point for you. That's your job not mine.

Showing that Naruto can do it is not the same as proving others can't. And again Kurama's chakra has this ability, not Naruto by your own logic since Base Naruto has never shown such an ability.

If this is a passive ability of the Nine-Tails chakra then Madara and Obito would have it due to having the Nine-Tails chakra.

 

[Stryker861]

I can agree with the necromancy (although this may change if there's counterarguments) bit but the other 2 is a hard disagree fra

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

While we're on the subject of soul manipulation, Naruto's resistance to it is pretty lame. The profile even notes that he had to be saved by Itachi. It should be changed to limited resistance.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I agree with the first, I'm neutral on the second (leaning towards agreeing), and I leaning towards disagreeing with the last one.

 

[Deceived3596]

Following.

Agree with the first change, disagree with the second and third change, will comment why later.

 

[NaruRiasUzumaki]

Neutral on all of them.

 

[Chaos666]

While we're on the subject of soul manipulation, Naruto's resistance to it is pretty lame. The profile even notes that he had to be saved by Itachi. It should be changed to limited resistance.

doesn't that show that Nagato's lifting strength is stronger than Naruto

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

Necromancy.

I don’t particularly believe the requirement to perform a technique is what makes it worth of a limited status rather than the application itself being limited. I believe that someone who mind controls someone through a kiss would get mind manipulation, but someone who can only make people say the truth remotely would get limited mind manipulation, for example. Edo Tensei as a whole should be Necromancy with Preparation

However, it doesn’t makes any difference, so I'd go neutral about this.

Mangekyō Sharingan Madara

Agree. Even taking the statement literal it only would mean that Susanoo has a soul, not that it is a manifestation of the user's soul.

Jūbi Jinchūriki Madara

Non-physical interaction should remain, Soul Manipulation needs to go.

 

[KingogKings777]

Itachi's totsuka blade was formed from his chakra. even the susanoos in general are completely made of chakra.

Well yeah that's what the databook says they made out of.

Showing that Naruto can do it is not the same as proving others can't. And again Kurama's chakra has this ability, not Naruto by your own logic since Base Naruto has never shown such an ability.

And all I'm asking is that you prove or provide evidence that they can do the same thing Naruto can.

If this is a passive ability of the Nine-Tails chakra then Madara and Obito would have it due to having the Nine-Tails chakra.

Prove it's passive, and give the evidence that supports Madara and Obito having it. That's all you got to do.
So far it's just a bunch of whatboutisms.

 

[Ped2018]

Prove it's passive, and give the evidence that supports Madara and Obito having it. That's all you got to do.
So far it's just a bunch of whatboutisms

Huh, isn't you that gotta prove why kurama wouldn't be able to use a power that it had?

 

[Warren_Valion]

I agree FRA

 

[KingogKings777]

Huh, isn't you that gotta prove why kurama wouldn't be able to use a power that it had?

Why would I have to prove your point?

 

[Godernet]

And all I'm asking is that you prove or provide evidence that they can do the same thing Naruto can.

you keep trying to disregard the fact that this is not Naruto's ability. It's Kurama's.

Prove it's passive, and give the evidence that supports Madara and Obito having it. That's all you got to do.
So far it's just a bunch of whatboutisms.

it's passive because he does not use a jutsu or ability to allow him to touch the souls, he just reaches for his soul and grabs it in KCM.

You're the one making a claim that Kurama's Chakra would work differently for Madara and Obito than it would for Naruto. I don't have to prove anything.

A precedence has already been established that Kurama's chakra allows Naruto to touch souls. If you can't provide a reason for why Kurama's chakra would work differently when given to Madara or Obito then your argument has no basis beyond your skepticism which isn't enough.

saying "proof?" over and over isn't an argument.

You should know by now that abilities don't always need to be demonstrated by each individual who receives it when we are given context indicating that they should have it(Madara and Obito getting the nine tails chakra), proof that the ability exists(Naruto performing the feat), and shown how the ability is obtained(KCM aka Kurama)

If your entire argument boils down to "show me proof" then I'm afraid you don't have much of an argument for that one.

 

[KingogKings777]

you keep trying to disregard the fact that this is not Naruto's ability. It's Kurama's.

*Stares at Naruto touching his own soul with his own hands and the chakra arms.
What?

it's passive because he does not use a jutsu or ability to allow him to touch the souls, he just reaches for his soul and grabs it in KCM.

Said soul is still inside of him and he's playing tug of war with it. Also thanks for this, made my life easier.

You're the one making a claim that Kurama's Chakra would work differently for Madara and Obito than it would for Naruto. I don't have to prove anything.

My claim is that they haven't shown it or any any statements for it, so therefor they shouldn't get it. It's that simple.

A precedence has already been established that Kurama's chakra allows Naruto to touch souls. If you can't provide a reason for why Kurama's chakra would work differently when given to Madara or Obito then your argument has no basis beyond your skepticism which isn't enough.

saying "proof?" over and over isn't an argument.

My argument is as stated they haven't shown the use as Naruto has and there are no statements given to them that they could do the same thing as Naruto has.

You should know by now that abilities don't always need to be demonstrated by each individual who receives it when we are given context indicating that they should have it(Madara and Obito getting the nine tails chakra),

So cause Naruto performed a feat they should get it now?

proof that the ability exists(Naruto performing the feat), and shown how the ability is obtained(KCM aka Kurama)

it's passive because he does not use a jutsu or ability to allow him to touch the souls, he just reaches for his soul and grabs it in KCM.

Wow it's just like you contradicted yourself. Is it an ability or is it passive? Make up your mind plz.

If your entire argument boils down to "show me proof" then I'm afraid you don't have much of an argument for that one.

Oddly enough the people on the opposing side has no scans to back up their arguments and are working off assumptions.

 

[Ped2018]

Why would I have to prove your point?

Kurama's chakra can touch souls
They can use Kurama's chakra
They have the ability

 

[Godernet]

*Stares at Naruto touching his own soul with his own hands and the chakra arms.
What?

KCM Naruto can do it, Base Naruto can't the defining difference is KCM. so unless you wanna say Base Naruto can touch souls too it's an ability of Kurama's chakra.

Said soul is still inside of him and he's playing tug of war with it. Also thanks for this, made my life easier.

how does KCM Naruto's soul being inside of him help your argument? he can still touch it because of Kurama's chakra

My claim is that they haven't shown it or any any statements for it, so therefor they shouldn't get it. It's that simple.

so basically needless skepticism based on an inability/unwillingness to look at the context of the story.

My argument is as stated they haven't shown the use as Naruto has and there are no statements given to them that they could do the same thing as Naruto has.

so basically needless skepticism based on an inability/unwillingness to look at the context of the story.

So cause Naruto performed a feat they should get it now?

Naruto performs a feat that he can't do normally with Kyuubi chakra. Obito and Madara have kyuubi chakra, yes they should have it.

Wow it's just like you contradicted yourself. Is it an ability or is it passive? Make up your mind plz

passive in the sense that he doesn't activate an ability to let him touch souls, he just can with Kurama chakra.

.Oddly enough the people on the opposing side has no scans to back up their arguments and are working off assumptions.

because no one is willing to waste their time with goonery when the only argument boils down to "prove it"

If you had a good point here that needed to be addressed, I would definitely be using scans.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

Personally, I'm fine with NPI for Naruto and Jūbi Jinchūriki. The glaring issue is Soul Manipulation being mixed up with NPI, so not even Naruto himself should've the ability to begin with if that’s the only justification.

 

[Godernet]

Personally, I'm fine with NPI for Naruto and Jūbi Jinchūriki. The glaring issue is Soul Manipulation being mixed up with NPI, so not even Naruto himself should've the ability to begin with if that’s the only justification.

why wouldn't physically grabbing your soul to resist someone stealing it be soul manipulation?

Soul Manipulation is the ability to interact with one's soul or the souls of others.

 

[Nierre]

Share the sane sentiments as Godernet FRA.

If Person A has a sentient sword that can absorb fire, and Person B should gain the ability the absorb fire via the sentient sword. The sentient sword wouldn't randomly lose the ability to absorb fire because it's being held by another person.

I'm not sure where the confusion is? At the very least it should be likely, but this is a reasonable assumption, not a random ass assumption out of no where

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

why wouldn't physically grabbing your soul to resist someone stealing it be soul manipulation?

Because that's non-physical interaction and resistance to Soul Manipulation, not Sould Manipulation itself.

Soul Manipulation is the ability to interact with one's soul or the souls of others

Soul Manipulation is the ability to interact with one's soul or the souls of others. This ability ranges from being able to project the power of one's soul outward, grasping and ripping the souls of others out of their bodies, outright consuming souls to gain power, among other applications.

Generally speaking, we judge the potency of Soul Manipulation both by what it can do and by how many people its user can affect at once with it. This may range from only a few people at a time to entire planetary populations.

When judging the potency of Soul Manipulation, and the resistance against it, there is a variety of factors to be considered. Such as the mechanisms involved, how many people the Soul Manipulation can affect, whether it has demonstrated to break through resistances, how great the effects are, etc.

It should be noted that the ability to interact with souls and other non-corporeal entities directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered Non-Physical Interaction and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate souls in other contexts.

Under normal circumstances, most characters are assumed to have a soul by default unless the original medium specifies otherwise. Those who do not possess soul are usually considered to be immune to most applications of Soul Manipulation.

Coming from the Soul Manipulation page.

Naruto cannot perform Soul Manipulation. He cannot tap or use his own soul as an attack or in any other given way, he was only ever able to interact with it because Nagato was already pulling it out. That's strictly non-physical interaction.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Naruto fans have gone soft Most of them are old

 

[Deceived3596]

Pain's an expert on things that are hard and soft

 

[KingogKings777]

Because that's non-physical interaction and resistance to Soul Manipulation, not Sould Manipulation itself.




Coming from the Soul Manipulation page.

Naruto cannot perform Soul Manipulation. He cannot tap or use his own soul as an attack or in any other given way, he was only ever able to interact with it because Nagato was already pulling it out. That's strictly non-physical interaction.

I can get behind NPI.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

NPI sounds like the most accurate ability.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

The necromancy is weird to use that limit, i mean unless you give Orochimaru or kabuto the DNA as "standard equipment" they are also limited.
The Susanoo part mostly duo to kishimoto's lack of consistency, Itachi supposedly found those weapons and added them to his susanoo but somehow they disappear together with his susanoo so either they are actually just part of his susanoo or Itachi gets dimensional storage, but the weapons apparently dont have a physical form so it means susanoo being able to use it its already NPI and if Itachi's susanoo can then so can all of them. Im neutral on the soul part
Hard disagree with the last one it doesnt matter if his soul is half out touching it its NPI anyways. Neutral on the soul part but it doesnt really matter here because with Rinnegan he gets soul manipulation anyways.

 

[KingogKings777]

KCM Naruto can do it, Base Naruto can't the defining difference is KCM. so unless you wanna say Base Naruto can touch souls too it's an ability of Kurama's chakra.

We don't know if base naruto can or cant do it cause it happened once when he was in KCM.

how does KCM Naruto's soul being inside of him help your argument? he can still touch it because of Kurama's chakra

Cause it's still connected to him.

so basically needless skepticism based on an inability/unwillingness to look at the context of the story.
so basically needless skepticism based on an inability/unwillingness to look at the context of the story.

Ah so will you be proving proof of your claim?

Naruto performs a feat that he can't do normally with Kyuubi chakra. Obito and Madara have kyuubi chakra, yes they should have it.

That's like saying Isshiki should be getting all of Kawakis feats. He shouldn't.

passive in the sense that he doesn't activate an ability to let him touch souls, he just can with Kurama chakra.

Is it passive or is it an ability make up your mind please.

because no one is willing to waste their time with goonery when the only argument boils down to "prove it"

So you don't have an argument to counter other then to say they can without statements or scans great.

If you had a good point here that needed to be addressed, I would definitely be using scans.

You would be using them if they existed in the first place, but it seems they don't.

 

[KingogKings777]

I agree with the first, I'm neutral on the second (leaning towards agreeing), and I leaning towards disagreeing with the last one.

Reasons for leaning towards disagreeing on the last one?