Mapl3Sy4up
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Well I took the absolute best of each for him, to get the best speed.
Still downgrades the verse by 26.79 times
Iroh v Lightning
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ATLA Speed Downgrade: It Is Time
- Thread starter Kingofwolves999
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Still downgrades the verse by 26.79 times
vsbattles.fandom.com
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- #42
Zuko also was just learning how to do it, so it could simply be a case of him not doing it properly. This was also Zuko in the midst of his turmoil, so him not getting the technique down to attract lightning doesn't mean Iroh can't do that.
Zuko yelling at the sky to hit him with a lightning bolt while he's crying is not him being confident he can react to natural lightning, he's just pissed he can't do it. Unless I'm missing a scene.
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Why are you asking me for a calc when that’s the one thing I agreed with you on: it needs a calc. I just disagree with all the extra stuff you’re saying
I can also make an argument that the camera’s perspective made it look like it was more horizontal than vertical.
Lastly, Iroh looked for the lightning, found it and began moving to where he predicted it would strike. So it wasn’t just based on minute movements when you have all these reactions to it. Whatever result comes out of that idc.
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- #44
The camera's perspective is obviously horizontalWhy are you asking me for a calc when that’s the one thing I agreed with you on: it needs a calc. I just disagree with all the extra stuff you’re saying
I can also make an argument that the camera’s perspective made it look like it was more horizontal than vertical.
Lastly, Iroh looked for the lightning, found it and began moving to where he predicted it would strike. So it wasn’t just based on minute movements when you have all these reactions to it. Whatever result comes out of that idc.
Also if you're saying he literally predicted where the bolt would be, that makes his feat even LESS of a speed feat, as he would have been moving to intercept it before it even was launched at him.
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As for lightning generation being natural lightning, Kingtempest does a good job justifying that here.
Mapl3Sy4up
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Flowing through conductive materials is something electricity does as well
same with the muscles
It’d need a few of those extra spicy ones to prove it’s worth
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- #48
Those points are true for a 50 volt battery going off and shocking your hand. None of that makes it lightning speed.
The other points are not met, and thus nothing turns to lightning bending being the exact same speed as actual lightning
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- #49
And for the point of "Iroh can manipulate real lightning therefore all lightning bending is the speed of lightning," there is zero correlation at all between the two. That's a feat for Iroh's chi being strong enough to manipulate the energy of a lightning bolt, not for his own lightning that he generates with his chi to shoot at the same speed as a lightning bolt.
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Fortunately, I didn’t say that.
Mapl3Sy4up
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well I'll be back
Don't kill each other while I'm gone
Don't kill each other while I'm gone
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Why aren't they equivalent? That's just the way we treat shared energy systems.
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- #53
Because lightning is not part of that energy system? It is a natural force, and while chi is natural to the world, chi can vary heavily on its source. You would not say that fire spawned from one person is the exact same strength as another persons, would you? So a lightning bolt should not be the same speed as anothers lightning bending, espeically without evidence or statements or anything that implies the two to be relative.
Iroh is as strong as a lightning bolt (debatably, as his technique is designed to redirect lightning not match its power), not as fast as one.
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It seems weirdly arbitrary that we should treat every bending skill as using natural elements except for lightning.
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- #55
Lightning and fire are weird on their own anyway.
All the other elements bend their surroundings, they don't produce them. There should absolutely be a standard set for fire and lightning bending rather than "the others are like this so these two, which aren't like the others, should be the same"
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- #56
Bending is a result of your chi. Fire and Lightning bending is the only chi technique that actually expels it as its own thing rather than used as a manipulation of other elements.
So yeah, fire and lightning do not scale to the other elements. They absolutely should be the exception.
So yeah, fire and lightning do not scale to the other elements. They absolutely should be the exception.
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Iroh's feat is the best to work with (he had time to turn around before the strike finished, if that can give a better result)
The Firebender lightning never gives a similar reaction to natural (Iroh nearly got cooked despite seemly doing it right and he couldn't fire it back into the sky)
The Firebender lightning never gives a similar reaction to natural (Iroh nearly got cooked despite seemly doing it right and he couldn't fire it back into the sky)
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There are a few instances where firebenders bend fire that is already in the environment.
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- #59
Yes, we know they can do that. But the instances where they CREATE fire are not the same.
Generating something with their own power vs. manipulating an existing thing should be separate. Iroh does not manipulate actual lighting from the clouds to attack, and is instead somewhat fried just by using his lightning redirection technique, which is specifically tailored to NOT hurt you when in contact with lightning/lightning bending. Meaning that lightning bolt was more potent than Azula or Ozai's lightning.
Lightning bending is not normal among any bending types, and should be held to a higher standard.
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- #60
Going back to Iroh's explanation of lightning redirection, he's not even using his chi to affect the lightning as it hits him.
The way redirection works is using the power inflicted upon you back out, not manipulating it with your power. He creates a pathway of chi and has the lightning flow through that pathway and back out harmlessly.
That absolutely does not scale to his literal bending with his own lightning or anyone elses lightning. A real bolt of lightning somewhat affected him despite this technique, so there is no reasoning I find for his power to be equal to that bolts power. It was all the bolt just flowing through him with no input of his own other than making the chi pathway for it to follow.
The way redirection works is using the power inflicted upon you back out, not manipulating it with your power. He creates a pathway of chi and has the lightning flow through that pathway and back out harmlessly.
That absolutely does not scale to his literal bending with his own lightning or anyone elses lightning. A real bolt of lightning somewhat affected him despite this technique, so there is no reasoning I find for his power to be equal to that bolts power. It was all the bolt just flowing through him with no input of his own other than making the chi pathway for it to follow.
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I mean they would be the same strength if the characters are referred to as of the same strength. Iroh could manipulate natural lightning, ergo Iroh's lightning bending scales to lightning, ergo there's no reason the bolts he creates would be incomparable to lightning. Furthermore, Ozai generally scales to Iroh so the voltage of his bolts would be comparable.
That isn't the point to argue, so too is "power does not equal speed" (I think if we applied the wiki's KE and speed rules to electric sparks/ arcs we'd never be able to get a calc for their speed).
That said, looking over some of the scenes I do concede to the point of Iroh's lightning redirection not actually being useful for scaling. It's not like it takes much to counter the positive charge the ground has during a lightning strike after all, and it's clear that's what he's doing from how he describes the technique later.
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- #62
Even by his own admission, Iroh does not manipulate natural lightning. He just makes a path through his body that the lightning follows, no input of his own other than making the pathway.
So no lightning bolt scaling (and they're probably stronger than that anyway, a bolt of lighting is like 8-C+ i think)
Edit: natural lightning is 1.6 billion joules which is barely 8-C. So yeah, not a crazy strength feat even if he did actually bend it.
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It creates thunder as it rips through the air, possesses heat, can electrocute, its called lightning, >1.6 billion joules, etc but somehow shouldn't be considered to move at lightning speeds.
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- #65
Yes. Absolutely.
None of those properties are even the ones that matter to it being lightning speed. It producing sound and being hot doesnt matter, normal electricity from a car can electrocute you, and you don't know WHAT the joule quantity of lightning bending is.
It being called lightning means nothing when there is no statements on its speed so far produced.
None of those properties are even the ones that matter to it being lightning speed. It producing sound and being hot doesnt matter, normal electricity from a car can electrocute you, and you don't know WHAT the joule quantity of lightning bending is.
It being called lightning means nothing when there is no statements on its speed so far produced.
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And it creates fire.
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It looks like it meets several of the wiki's criteria of lightning so I don't see how it is not lightning speed
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You didn't have to pick on every criterion i made cuz I only made them to lessen the burden of proof. Then you have the wiki standard
And you and I both know the lightning in ATLA is more than that.
So all of the things I said lessen the burden and coupled with this wiki standard. ATLA's Lightning discharges are at Lightning speeds
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- Lightning that has demonstrated at a minimum a few properties that real lightning has, and significantly less properties that lightning shouldn't have, can be considered real. Some examples of favourable properties are: making muscles of affected beings contract, having an (electro)magnetic field, being shown to actually move with a speed similar to lightning, flowing through conducting materials, the character being able to manipulate real electricity or electromagnetism in general, generating ozone or causing electrolysis.
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I mean, a bigger point about speed is also consistency. Hard to argue that the verse is MHS+ when nothing else backs the idea other than lightning bending possibly being as quick as natural lightning.
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- #71
If I touch something flammable to an electric fence, it will catch on fire.
That does not make electricity the same speed as lightning.
The criteria it meets is the exact same criteria a normal current of electricity would meet. Nothing implies the speed is the same. The only critereia that points to it is that Iroh could redirect a bolt of lightning in a manner that shows he absolutely is not faster than the bolt.
If you're going to make an argument or produce a criteria, I'm going to respond.
Prove it is more than that.
It fulfills maybe three of them, none of which even scale lightning bending to literal lightning.
It can conctract muscles. So does normal electricity, so that is not an argument.
No electromagnetic field.
Not shown to move at similar speeds or ever implied
It can flow through conductive materials.
Iroh cannot manipulate real electricity or lightning, only redirect it through letting it pass through his body. IROH CANNOT BEND LIGHTNING
No ozone is generated
Prove electrolysis
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Lightning bending only involves generating lightning and redirecting it from a bender or nature. Absolutely nothing else.
The creation of lightning as a discharge is used to attack and since it consistently follows most of our standards it should be lightning speeds, shouldn't it?
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The main issue is the redirecting part. The only time we see them interact with a natural source in ATLA and Korra is them pulling the energy towards them in an unnatural way, which wouldn't require MHS+ speed.
It can be accepted, but it can also be considered an outlier if has consistency issues. Like with Electro from Spectacular Spider-Man
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- #74
"most of our standards" except it doesn't, it follows maybe three that have nothing to do with how strong the lightning they create is or its speed, only the properties. Heck, the standards in question aren't even ABOUT the speed, its about proving that it is the exact same as a real lightning bolt, which lightning bending fails to do.
And no one has used bending on a lightning bolt. Only Iroh has ever redirected one, which is specifically NOT bending it.
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It actually does show electrolysis as seen when Mako shot his lightning into the water girl’s water
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thats the third one then. As I said, three, not the four being claimed
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Well, while I agree with the main point of the thread (lightning bending and especially Zuko running to intercept it) as not working for speed, it isn't because it doesn't meet our criteria. It meets enough to count, it just contradicts the franchise speed-wise and doesn't work with any other speed feat in the series.
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- #78
So because it can do things normal electricity does, it counts for lightning speed and power? Despite no showings of lightning bending coming even close to it?
Nothing I've seen in the verse is something that a powerful electrical current could not replicate, with even the SINGLE feat in the series that deals with a real lightning bolt not only showing Iroh being slower than the bolt, but not even being a bending feat to scale to his chi, and instead implying its far more powerful than any lightning bender ever seen as it nearly overpowered his redirection technique.
I simply disagree with the stance that lightning bending should be considered real lightning when its showings are equivalent to what would happen at a voltage of 3k, not 100 million.
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- #79
And before someone freaks out and tries to crucify me, 3k voltage is hyperbole. The main point is that they are not producing electricity on the same level as an actual lightning bolt at all.
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To kind of support the contradiction in speed, Naga can run in front of and catch an attack from the equalist mechs which can tag benders like Tenzin and Korra. We’d have to argue Naga runs at mhs speeds.
Pretty sure you can find other stuff like Bolin failing to hit a car with his bending which should be stupidly slow to him.
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