Happy New Year From Kishimoto

[Damage3245]

Doesn't he use it against Naruto in VotE or was that anime only?

Anime-only. A really cool scene tbh. Should have been in the manga IMO.

 

[Godernet]

"This jutsu guides the lightning striking down from the heavens.

This doesn't disprove what I said since Sasuke is basically just saying this lightning is coming from a natural source but doesn't disprove his ability to link his chakra to it to guide and potentially amp it.

Yes, the chakra is to guide it.

The Jutsu being at all connected to a source of chakra at all should be enough to imply this isn't just a lightning bolt.

 

[Godernet]

theres also the fact that Kirin is still used by stronger versions of Sasuke which would mean the speed has to be variable to a degree.

tbf this is an anime-only scene.

 

[KingogKings777]

Anime-only. A really cool scene tbh. Should have been in the manga IMO.

There any info about Kishi helping with the anime or being asked if something is good etc?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

We currently accept the Boruto anime as canon iirc

 

[Tomboy11]

You aren't understanding that this is an assumption on your part, it's assuming that the databook statement is being extremely literal when you haven't proved that yet, and you're assuming it directly contradicts Zetsu's word when it doesn't innately do so. Just because the databook uses the Kanji for SOL doesn't mean it actuality it moves at the speed of light, you're removing needed context which completes the actual sentence, you can't just remove that context and then specifically focus on set of Kanji, it would be dishonest to do so. Especially for a language like Japanese.

The point i'm getting at is just because Kishimoto used SOL in his explanation of Kirin within the databooks doesn't mean it would innately move at the speed of light without further context because there's room for equal interpretations to come about which don't necessarily contradict Zetsu's word. Using a specific set of Kanji doesn't negate the possibility of the statement being hyperbolic.


No one in this thread has proven it's innately non-hyperbolic, the OP only provided the Kanji for the scan without the translation, which isn't evidence for either of our claims, until someone can actually provide the full translation of that raw scan we both can't mak

You aren't understanding that this is an assumption on your part, it's assuming that the databook statement is being extremely literal when you haven't proved that yet, and you're assuming it directly contradicts Zetsu's word when it doesn't innately do so. Just because the databook uses the Kanji for SOL doesn't mean it actuality it moves at the speed of light, you're removing needed context which completes the actual sentence, you can't just remove that context and then specifically focus on set of Kanji, it would be dishonest to do so. Especially for a language like Japanese.

The point i'm getting at is just because Kishimoto used SOL in his explanation of Kirin within the databooks doesn't mean it would innately move at the speed of light without further context because there's room for equal interpretations to come about which don't necessarily contradict Zetsu's word. Using a specific set of Kanji doesn't negate the possibility of the statement being hyperbolic.


No one in this thread has proven it's innately non-hyperbolic, the OP only provided the Kanji for the scan without the translation, which isn't evidence for either of our claims,

You aren't understanding that this is an assumption on your part, it's assuming that the databook statement is being extremely literal when you haven't proved that yet, and you're assuming it directly contradicts Zetsu's word when it doesn't innately do so. Just because the databook uses the Kanji for SOL doesn't mean it actuality it moves at the speed of light, you're removing needed context which completes the actual sentence, you can't just remove that context and then specifically focus on set of Kanji, it would be dishonest to do so. Especially for a language like Japanese.

The point i'm getting at is just because Kishimoto used SOL in his explanation of Kirin within the databooks doesn't mean it would innately move at the speed of light without further context because there's room for equal interpretations to come about which don't necessarily contradict Zetsu's word. Using a specific set of Kanji doesn't negate the possibility of the statement being hyperbolic.


No one in this thread has proven it's innately non-hyperbolic, the OP only provided the Kanji for the scan without the translation, which isn't evidence for either of our claims, until someone can actually provide the full translation of that raw scan we both can't make complete assertions like this.

until someone can actually provide the full translation of that raw scan we both can't make complete assertions like this.

e complete assertions like this.

You aren't understanding that this is an assumption on your part, it's assuming that the databook statement is being extremely literal when you haven't proved that yet, and you're assuming it directly contradicts Zetsu's word when it doesn't innately do so. Just because the databook uses the Kanji for SOL doesn't mean it actuality it moves at the speed of light, you're removing needed context which completes the actual sentence, you can't just remove that context and then specifically focus on set of Kanji, it would be dishonest to do so. Especially for a language like Japanese.

The point i'm getting at is just because Kishimoto used SOL in his explanation of Kirin within the databooks doesn't mean it would innately move at the speed of light without further context because there's room for equal interpretations to come about which don't necessarily contradict Zetsu's word. Using a specific set of Kanji doesn't negate the possibility of the statement being hyperbolic.


No one in this thread has proven it's innately non-hyperbolic, the OP only provided the Kanji for the scan without the translation, which isn't evidence for either of our claims, until someone can actually provide the full translation of that raw scan we both can't make complete assertions like this.

Yes or no question
In an interpretation situations
Do we take someone word who has the most knowledge on the workings of an ability over who has little to knowledge on how an ability works

It's a very simple question
we no really need too much explanation

 

[Deceived3596]

Yes or no question
In an interpretation situations
Do we take someone word who has the most knowledge on the workings of an ability over who has little to knowledge on how an ability works

It's a very simple question
we no really need too much explanation

I already addressed that in the post you've quoted, i'm going to copy and paste it again because you seemingly missed it.

---

You aren't understanding that this is an assumption on your part, it's assuming that the databook statement is being extremely literal when you haven't proved that yet, and you're assuming it directly contradicts Zetsu's word when it doesn't innately do so. Just because the databook uses the Kanji for SOL doesn't mean it actuality it moves at the speed of light, you're removing needed context which completes the actual sentence, you can't just remove that context and then specifically focus on set of Kanji, it would be dishonest to do so. Especially for a language like Japanese.

The point i'm getting at is just because Kishimoto used SOL in his explanation of Kirin within the databooks doesn't mean it would innately move at the speed of light without further context because there's room for equal interpretations to come about which don't necessarily contradict Zetsu's word. Using a specific set of Kanji doesn't negate the possibility of the statement being hyperbolic.

 

[Godernet]

Yes or no question
In an interpretation situations
Do we take someone word who has the most knowledge on the workings of an ability over who has little to knowledge on how an ability works

It's a very simple question
we no really need too much explanation

Decieved's point is more so that there is nothing definitive that makes the SOL statement 100% the way we are interpreting it.

I don't fully disagree with that so a possibly or likely rating might be better.

 

[Tomboy11]

You aren't understanding that this is an assumption on your part, it's assuming that the databook statement is being extremely literal when you haven't proved that yet, and you're assuming it directly contradicts Zetsu's word when it doesn't innately do so. Just because the databook uses the Kanji for SOL doesn't mean it actuality it moves at the speed of light, you're removing needed context which completes the actual sentence, you can't just remove that context and then specifically focus on set of Kanji, it would be dishonest to do so. Especially for a language like Japanese.

The point i'm getting at is just because Kishimoto used SOL in his explanation of Kirin within the databooks doesn't mean it would innately move at the speed of light without further context because there's room for equal interpretations to come about which don't necessarily contradict Zetsu's word. Using a specific set of Kanji doesn't negate the possibility of the statement being hyperbolic.


No one in this thread has proven it's innately non-hyperbolic, the OP only provided the Kanji for the scan without the translation, which isn't evidence for either of our claims, until someone can actually provide the full translation of that raw scan we both can't make complete assertions like this.

No body has actually gone aginest the translation
And my census wasn't a totally objective take on which is the objective answer
But a take on which interpretation makes more sense for kirini
My whole point is that if we make this a matter of he said and she said
We can't use zetus a characters who is seeing the attack for the first time as the prime interpretation over kishimoto interpretation
Who has full knowledge on what he is talking about

 

[The_Alxhemist]

Yeah
You brought up Jugo earlier
Peeps like shinki and ku might eventually scale
Don't remember every episode in Boruto
And don't plan on rewatching anytime soon
Only listed the characters I remembered

I could make a list of anime canon characters it would affect but it'll take a while.

 

[The_Alxhemist]

He never uses it again in the manga IIRC.

Yea anime canon exists for this.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

why arnt we using the current accepted calc for Kirin anyway.

theres nothing wrong with that one.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I have a question, was Zetsu speaking specifically about the Jutsu Kirin or about lightning in general? Because if he was speaking about lightning in general then his statement isn’t wrong and doesn’t technically apply to Kirin. Since if he was speaking on normal lightning he wouldn’t be factoring in the fact that Kirin uses all the cloud’s energy, unlike normal lightning. Might be food for thought idk.

why arnt we using the current accepted calc for Kirin anyway.

theres nothing wrong with that one.

I think we do use it? Idk if I ever applied it to profiles tho

 

[Damage3245]

why arnt we using the current accepted calc for Kirin anyway.

theres nothing wrong with that one.

We are. It's on the verse page.

 

[Tomboy11]

I already addressed that in the post you've quoted, i'm going to copy and paste it again because you seemingly missed it.

---

You aren't understanding that this is an assumption on your part, it's assuming that the databook statement is being extremely literal when you haven't proved that yet, and you're assuming it directly contradicts Zetsu's word when it doesn't innately do so. Just because the databook uses the Kanji for SOL doesn't mean it actuality it moves at the speed of light, you're removing needed context which completes the actual sentence, you can't just remove that context and then specifically focus on set of Kanji, it would be dishonest to do so. Especially for a language like Japanese.

The point i'm getting at is just because Kishimoto used SOL in his explanation of Kirin within the databooks doesn't mean it would innately move at the speed of light without further context because there's room for equal interpretations to come about which don't necessarily contradict Zetsu's word. Using a specific set of Kanji doesn't negate the possibility of the statement being hyperbolic.

This is why I said just answer yes or no to my question because u are making it way too convoluted
If the Data book makes a direct statement of moves at the speed of light than the standard assumption / interpretation would be it moves at such speed !
Why should we assume speed of light= any thing different
+The translation that was given doesn't even Imply any hyperbolic denotation
If I am not mistaken

So from every thing the positive side have provided it is more likely to go with SoL Kirin
That's my take sha

 

[Tomboy11]

Decieved's point is more so that there is nothing definitive that makes the SOL statement 100% the way we are interpreting it.

I don't fully disagree with that so a possibly or likely rating might be better.

I have a question, was Zetsu speaking specifically about the Jutsu Kirin or about lightning in general? Because if he was speaking about lightning in general then his statement isn’t wrong and doesn’t technically apply to Kirin. Since if he was speaking on normal lightning he wouldn’t be factoring in the fact that Kirin uses all the cloud’s energy, unlike normal lightning. Might be food for thought idk.



I think we do use it? Idk if I ever applied it to profiles tho

I think the statement was just lightning in general not even Kirin it self

 

[Godernet]

I have a question, was Zetsu speaking specifically about the Jutsu Kirin or about lightning in general? Because if he was speaking about lightning in general then his statement isn’t wrong and doesn’t technically apply to Kirin. Since if he was speaking on normal lightning he wouldn’t be factoring in the fact that Kirin uses all the cloud’s energy, unlike normal lightning. Might be food for thought idk.

He was talking about the speed of lightning in general in every translation I've seen. This is before Kirin was even launched too.

That's why I was saying earlier that what Zetsu said doesn't really support either argument.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

He was talking about the speed of lightning in general in every translation I've seen. This is before Kirin was even launched too.

That's why I was saying earlier that what Zetsu said doesn't really support either argument.

Hmmmmm then idk if we can apply Zetsu’s statement to Kirin. Since Zetsu most likely is speaking broadly about lightning in general. As opposed to Kirin which has so much energy stolen from the cloud it disperses it instantaneously. Normal lightning doesn’t do that, and considering Zetsu shouldn’t know anything about Kirin, I don’t think we should assume his statement applies to anything outside of normal lightning.

 

[Hasty12345]

I agree with at least a “possibly” or “likely” SOL rating for Kirin. I don’t think there are any solid counter arguments but agree it’s too up for interpretation for a solid rating.

 

[Damage3245]

I think that Zetsu's statement is still perfectly applicable.

They aren't talking about Kirin being undodgeable because "Sasuke is amping the speed of lightning to be thousands of times faster than normal..." They're talking about Kirin being undodgeable because lightning is fast. Which backs up the fact that Sasuke states he is merely directing the lightning towards Itachi.

 

[Hasty12345]

Zetsu also thinks Itachi is invincible.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Ima post some new databook scans here soon that may help shed some light on the issue.

 

[Godernet]

I think that Zetsu's statement is still perfectly applicable.

They aren't talking about Kirin being undodgeable because "Sasuke is amping the speed of lightning to be thousands of times faster than normal..." They're talking about Kirin being undodgeable because lightning is fast. Which backs up the fact that Sasuke states he is merely directing the lightning towards Itachi.

Zetsu's statement is still before the technique is launched and a hypothesis he's made based on how Sasuke conjured the lightning.

Again, Zetsu did not say the Kirin was Lightning Speed. But that Lightning was Lightning speed.

And even if he did say that it was undodgeable because it's lightning speed that contradicts earlier manga statements about Kakashi.

unless you can prove Kakashi could apparently chop lightning but couldn't react or dodge it for some reason.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

So I’m going to give my two cents regarding Kirin based on all the evidence presented. First let’s look at the facts, before diving into the more subjective interpretations.

The correct translation of the databook for Kirin states the following:

光速の一撃は回避不能であり、瞬きする間もなく敵を消し去る‼︎
The light speed strike is unavoidable, it blows away the opponent with no time to even blink!!

In Naruto Fanbook 2 it also states:

麒麟 (サスケ)
Kirin (Sasuke)
雷をも使役シ‼︎
Employing lightning as well!!
イタチを倒すために、サスケが生み出した究極の術。伝説の霊獣・麒麟を象った雷撃が、光速で相手に迫る様は圧巻の一言‼︎
For the sake of bringing down Itachi, Sasuke created this ultimate technique. Being struck by lightning taking the form of the legendary sacred beast Kirin, approaching the opponent at light speed it's superb!!

And lastly we all know Zetsu says this:

Which is why it cannot be evaded… The speed of lightning is 1/1000 of a second…

Lastly, Zetsu indicates that all of the cloud’s energy is utilized in created the Kirin lightning bolt. Which is supported by the cloud dissipating after Kirin is used.

When evaluating the opposing side’s interpretation, we have that Kirin being called natural lightning and Zetsu saying lightning travels from the sky to the ground in 0.001s indicates that Kirin is lightning speed.

Now I don’t think this interpretation is objectively wrong, it’s where I get my sub-rel Kirin speed calc from, I don’t think it is inherently superior to the following interpretation.

Kirin is stated twice to be light speed in 2 separate databooks/fanbooks. Kirin utilizes all of the cloud’s energy in one single bolt of lightning,
meaning it’d have a far greater amount of kinetic energy than your average lightning bolt. Considering no irl/normal lightning uses all of the cloud’s energy in a single strike, Kirin should far surpass the KE of any lightning bolt seen normally in nature, and thus it being faster than any normal lightning is sensible and not contradicted by the Jutsu mechanics. Furthermore, when Zetsu speaks, he speaks broadly about lightning. He has never seen the Kirin jutsu and thus when he sees a storm cloud, realizing Sasuke tamed lightning, he has no reason to assume the Jutsu would use all of the cloud’s energy to produce one bolt. Meaning that Zetsu’s comment is referring to your average lightning bolt. In which case his comment about the speed of lightning isn’t wrong, it just means that the assumption of Kirin being normal lightning was wrong. Then regarding Kirin being natural, that just means it comes from nature, which it does. Sasuke took that lightning from a storm cloud. But being natural =/= being normal. Also, Zetsu saying “it’s impossible to evade” is asinine considering people evade lightning speed lightning style jutsu all the time and Zetsu has witnessed a prime Kaguya (who would be far above Naruto) fight and that caliber of character can evade light speed attacks. So the notion that lightning speed is impossible to dodge is just wrong.

Considering we have two descriptive narrator statements of Kirin being light speed, and the Zetsu statement does not inherently mean Kirin is lightning speed, as my interpretation indicates, I believe my interpretation is most consistent with the information we have. I also don’t believe the light speed statements are hyperbolic, given two separate sources reiterate the same thing, and I don’t want to debate semantics. However, I can understand the skepticism, especially regarding consistency. Although tmk no one scales to Kirin outside of Itachi’s perception/reaction speeds, which doesn’t inherently mean his movement speed scales. For those reasons I believe that Kirin should be “MHS+, likely SoL”. Given we have due evidence to suggest it can be the speed of light, although it’s not exactly 100% objective.

 

[Damage3245]

Now I don’t think this interpretation is objectively wrong, it’s where I get my sub-rel Kirin speed calc from, I don’t think it is inherently superior to the following interpretation.

Just for clarification, your current accepted calc for Kirin is MHS+.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Zetsu's statement is still before the technique is launched and a hypothesis he's made based on how Sasuke conjured the lightning.

Again, Zetsu did not say the Kirin was Lightning Speed. But that Lightning was Lightning speed.

And even if he did say that it was undodgeable because it's lightning speed that contradicts earlier manga statements about Kakashi.

unless you can prove Kakashi could apparently chop lightning but couldn't react or dodge it for some reason.

Kakashi's lightnings feats could be an outlier, considering that Shikamaru and Choji failed to react to Kakuzu's lightning attack and needed Kakashi to save them.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Just for clarification, your current accepted calc for Kirin is MHS+.

It’s borderline Sub-Rel true I’ll correct that

 

[Hasty12345]

If Zetsu says the 1/1000th statement before Kirin is launched, how could he possibly know how fast it would be? Zetsu (who knows Madara) also thinks Itachi is invincible, so clearly Zetsu thinks Itach isn’t losing to madara, this clown is clearly never wrong about anything.

 

[Damage3245]

If Zetsu says the 1/1000th statement before Kirin is launched, how could he possibly know how fast it would be? Zetsu (who knows Madara) also thinks Itachi is invincible, so clearly Zetsu thinks Itach isn’t losing to madara, this clown is clearly never wrong about anything.

You realize he only made the statement for Itachi being invincible to be in relation to the Spirit Weapons that his Susano'o had?

 

[Deceived3596]

Lastly, Sasuke indicates that all of the cloud’s energy is utilized in created the Kirin lightning bolt. Which is supported by the cloud dissipating after Kirin is used.

Sasuke doesn't indicate this, rather it's Black Zetsu who says this as the statement references Sasuke as a separate person to the one whose making these statements, using third-person pronouns like "he" and "his" when in reference towards Sasuke's jutsu.

We also know this is Black Zetsu saying this because the entire paragraph is bolded, which is used to distinct from Black Zetsu saying something comparative to White Zetsu or someone else saying something.

 

[LordTracer]

Arc’s interpretation for Kirin makes sense, but I’m overall neutral on this topic.

 

[Godernet]

Kakashi's lightnings feats could be an outlier, considering that Shikamaru and Choji failed to react to Kakuzu's lightning attack and needed Kakashi to save them.

you'd have to prove Shikamaru and Choji have better reaction speeds than the Kakashi who cut the bolt of lightning. which is honestly unlikely since Kakashi did still have a fully matured Sharingan back then.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Sasuke doesn't indicate this, rather it's Black Zetsu who says this as the statement references Sasuke as a separate person to the one whose making these statements, using third-person pronouns like "he" and "his" when in reference towards Sasuke's jutsu.

We also know this is Black Zetsu saying this because the entire paragraph is bolded, which is used to distinct from Black Zetsu saying something comparative to White Zetsu or someone else saying something.

My b, I read that too fast, thanks for the clarification

 

[Hasty12345]

You realize he only made the statement for Itachi being invincible to be in relation to the Spirit Weapons that his Susano'o had?

You realise he only made the statement regarding lightning in relation to a jutsu in which he had 0 knowledge on and had no way of knowing how fast it would be?

 

[Damage3245]

You realise he only made the statement regarding lightning in relation to a jutsu in which he had 0 knowledge on and had no way of knowing how fast it would be?

He didn't have 0 knowledge on it; he had just listened to Sasuke's explanation of it.

 

[Hasty12345]

He didn't have 0 knowledge on it; he had just listened to Sasuke's explanation of it.

I must have misread where Sasuke says his jutsu is the speed of lightning

 

[Godernet]

Lastly, Sasuke indicates that all of the cloud’s energy is utilized in created the Kirin lightning bolt. Which is supported by the cloud dissipating after Kirin is used.

Zetsu is actually the one that says this part.

But even then Zetsu seems surprised when the cloud disappears after the jutsu's been cast.

So he likely didn't even know Kirin was going to use all of the energy of the cloud and was just explaining that Sasuke was using Natural Lightning to create a Raiton Jutsu.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Zetsu is actually the one that says this part.

Sasuke doesn't indicate this, rather it's Black Zetsu who says this as the statement references Sasuke as a separate person to the one whose making these statements, using third-person pronouns like "he" and "his" when in reference towards Sasuke's jutsu.

We also know this is Black Zetsu saying this because the entire paragraph is bolded, which is used to distinct from Black Zetsu saying something comparative to White Zetsu or someone else saying something.

My b, I read that too fast, thanks for the clarification

 

[Godernet]

my fault I'll let you cook

 

[Deceived3596]

my fault I'll let you ****