Ben 10 - At least 2-B, Possibly 2-A Universe Structure Proposal

[Reiner04]

Where did you get that impression when I just said the universe is a single dimension?

Oke, nothing new, has been covered before by myself.

There are just 3 types of dimensions in Ben 10 “shown”:-

1- “in-universe dimensions.”
2- “separate universes as dimensions.”
3- “axiomatic dimensions.”

Now proceed with why Kevin was wrong as you claimed.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Oke, nothing new, has been covered before by myself.

Now proceed with why Kevin was wrong as you claimed.

My guy, I said I was continuing by giving that statement the benefit of the doubt. Why do you continue to bring it up? I'll respond to what you quoted tho.

There are just 3 types of dimensions in Ben 10 “shown”:-

1- “in-universe dimensions.”
2- “separate universes as dimensions.”
3- “axiomatic dimensions.”

There aren't a lot of options to pick from. What has been suggested btw 3 will be applied. Dimension 12 has no evidence to be a separate universe but has a lot of reasons and evidence to be considered an “in-universe” dimension.

You do realize an example like this shows that these dimensions exist as pocket dimensions most likely right? Especially when D12 and Ledgerdomain have no confirmed size.

In fact, way more evidence than the hyperbolic time chamber had at that time to be considered an in-universe dimension in Dragonball.

DB has nothing to do with this. Idk what that was about.

 

[Reiner04]

My guy, I said I was continuing by giving that statement the benefit of the doubt. Why do you continue to bring it up?

The claim made so the burden.

You do realize an example like this shows that these dimensions exist as pocket dimensions most likely right? Especially when D12 and Ledgerdomain have no confirmed size

Don't know what you are talking about, I just said I have already covered what you are saying right now.

Let's proceed with Kevin's statement.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

The claim made so the burden.


Don't know what you are talking about, I just said I have already covered what you are saying right now.

Let's proceed with Kevin's statement.

You're not saying anything though??? I told you that his statement isn’t relevant anymore a LONG time ago and you keep bringing it up saying "Let's proceed with Kevin ". You keep going in circles instead of trying to make a comprehensive argument. Since you don't want to be productive, I'll quote your initial OP, where you proposed a 2-A universe in the fist place.

 

[Firestorm808]

Let's start small and work our way up.

• The Space-Time of Ben's Dimension Branches Out to infinity.
• Each of those Branches would be connected to the respective Null Void, Legerdomain, Dagon, etc. Dimensions
• So, each of those dimensions branches out, matching the Ben Dimension Branching
• The Map of Infinity is a complete map of space-time extending through seventeen dimensions.
  • If it's talking about the ad infinitum Ben timeline branches each as a different dimension, this description won't work.
  • It does work if we say that the map is complete for 17 space-time dimension trees that branch. One of the pieces was placed in Ledgerdomain, so Legerdomain should be one of those 17 dimensions on the map which are part of the same universe set.

Are there any disagreements with the above?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

From this OP.

• Ben said he has been to parallel dimensions "All the time, even though he has only been to legerdomain and nullvoid not any alternate timeline/universe, the dimensions Ben was talking about were clearly in universe dimensions, suggesting Rex dimension to be inside as well.

Other timelines are called parallel worlds as well, which is true since timelines and universes are parallel worlds generally. You need proof it's in the same universe.

• Dimensional disruptor whose functioning is same as nullvoid projector can connect Rex dimension to nullvoid or Ben's dimension by " creating a spacetime rift . Nullvoid gun cannot be used to connect universes or any device in knowledge of Kevin or devices with nearly same functioning as of nullvoid shouldn't be able to do that, as Kevin was not aware of the other universes despite his great knowledge in techs, he was even shown to be aware of map of infinity proves it further.

Kevin's ignorance means nothing. Creating a spacetime rift is merely opening a portal through space and time, which can allow you to travel to different universes and timelines. That's what spacetime travel is. If anything, this just means that

• WOG further confirms that Rex dimension is not a alternate timeline like other branched off timelines but just seprate spacetime continuum/sub timeline.

WOG is cherry-picked asf. Secondly being a different timeline doesn’t mean you can't be a different universe.

Let's start small and work our way up.

• The Space-Time of Ben's Dimension Branches Out to infinity.
• Each of those Branches would be connected to the respective Null Void, Legerdomain, Dagon, etc. Dimensions
• So, each of those dimensions branches out, matching the Ben Dimension Branching
• The Map of Infinity is a complete map of space-time extending through seventeen dimensions.
  • If it's talking about the ad infinitum Ben timeline branches each as a different dimension, this description won't work.
  • It does work if we say that the map is complete for 17 space-time dimension trees that branch. One of the pieces was placed in Ledgerdomain, so Legerdomain should be one of those 17 dimensions on the map which are part of the same universe set.

Are there any disagreements with the above?

Yes, I disagree. Firstly, Azmuth says that the map is a complete map of spacetime, which would include all the timelines. Secondly, we see another universe without exiting the time stream, which shows there are multiple universes in a timeline.

 

[Firestorm808]

Yes, I disagree. Firstly, Azmuth says that the map is a complete map of spacetime, which would include all the timelines.

If it meant a complete map for all timelines, what does the "extending to 17 dimensions" mean if not for parallel space-time dimensions such as Legerdomain and the like?

 

[Firestorm808]

Null void​

The Null Void is a pocket dimension and criminals are said to be banished "from the universe itself", which shows it's not part of the universe. Pocket dimensions can exist in the universe but aren’t connected to them, so destroying the universe wouldn't automatically mean the pocket dimension is destroyed as well. As a pocket dimension, there's no 5D axis so it wouldn’t be 2-C regardless.

As previously discussed, the Null Void had been retconned and had shown the qualities of having its own separate space-time, not just a 3-D Space.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

If it meant a complete map for all timelines, what does the "extending to 17 dimensions" mean if not for parallel space-time dimensions such as Legerdomain and the like?

It could mean anything from a number of dimensions to higher dimensions. Even using your logic, it wouldn’t even be a full map of the universe because you think the universe is 2-A.

As previously discussed, the Null Void had been retconned and had shown the qualities of having its own separate space-time, not just a 3-D Space.

I never said it was a 3D space. I never claimed it was retconned, which you have no proof of. The space-time statements come from UAF so I don't see how the retcon argument changes anything. It's a different spacetime but it's still a pocket dimension. Are you seriously telling me you never knew pocket dimensions were spacetimes?

 

[Firestorm808]

It could mean anything from a number of dimensions to higher dimensions. Even using your logic, it wouldn’t even be a full map of the universe because you think the universe is 2-A.

I said it was a complete space-time map for 17 dimensions, 17 branching dimensions.

Hypothetically, having a map of only the branching Ben Earth timeline would be a complete map of space-time extending to 1 dimension.

The standard assumption is parallel dimensions since they have the most experience with them in the context of the situation, not higher dimensions.

 

[Aachintya31]

Yes, I disagree. Firstly, Azmuth says that the map is a complete map of spacetime, which would include all the timelines. Secondly, we see another universe without exiting the time stream, which shows there are multiple universes in a timeline.

Dude it was Max who referred map of infinity as a complete map of space-time which azmuth reiterates as extending to 17 dimension. We should not use half cut statement to prove a point since it is already contradicted by dagon conquering 100 dimension.Max is wrong
Scan

Secondly, we see another universe without exiting the time stream, which shows there are multiple universes in a timeline.

How could you claim this? It was all nothingness which they referred to as the space beyond.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I said it was a complete space-time map for 17 dimensions, 17 branching dimensions.

Hypothetically, having a map of only the branching Ben Earth timeline would be a complete map of space-time extending to 1 dimension.

The standard assumption is parallel dimensions since they have the most experience with them in the context of the situation, not higher dimensions.

ok

Dude it was Max who referred map of infinity as a complete map of space-time which azmuth reiterates as extending to 17 dimension. We should not use half cut statement to prove a point since it is already contradicted by dagon conquering 100 dimension.Max is wrong
Scan

Ah yes my mistake.

How could you claim this? It was all nothingness which they referred to as the space beyond.

We see how the timestream looks in Omniverse.

 

[Aachintya31]

We see how the timestream looks in Omniverse.

Well Celestialsapiens changed the appearance of different things in Ben 10.
Are you claiming 2B/2A annhilarg creation ?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Well Celestialsapiens changed the appearance of different things in Ben 10.

Ok.

Are you claiming 2B/2A annhilarg creation ?

No.

 

[Reiner04]

You're not saying anything though??? I told you that his statement isn’t relevant anymore a LONG time ago and you keep bringing it up saying "Let's proceed with Kevin ". You keep going in circles instead of trying to make a comprehensive argument. Since you don't want to be productive, I'll quote your initial OP, where you proposed a 2-A universe in the fist place.

Oke then you proceed with Kevin statement is wrong and I won't care.
And I'll proceed with Kevin statement is right as it should be, too much productive within a minute am not I?

Other timelines are called parallel worlds as well, which is true since timelines and universes are parallel worlds generally. You need proof it's in the same universe.

Dimension 12, legerdomain and nullvoid are "in Universe" dimensions and Kevin statement right above deduct Rex dimension to be in the same lead unless proven otherwise.

Kevin's ignorance means nothing. Creating a spacetime rift is merely opening a portal through space and time, which can allow you to travel to different universes and timelines. That's what spacetime travel is. If anything, this just means that

That's not how fiction works, no atleast ben 10 as far has been seen. Creating a spacetime rift that can "connect universes" and creating a spacetime rift that can connect "in-universe dimensions" won't be same, distances btw universes that has been shown in UA are way more larger than "in universe" dimensions to compromise over with a same kind of device.

WOG is cherry-picked asf. Secondly being a different timeline doesn’t mean you can't be a different universe

Prove then.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Dimension 12, legerdomain and nullvoid are "in Universe" dimensions and Kevin statement right above deduct Rex dimension to be in the same lead unless proven otherwise.

You need the evidence. Parallel world is used interchangeably, so you need to prove that it's all in one universe.

That's not how fiction works, no atleast ben 10 as far has been seen. Creating a spacetime rift that can "connect universes" and creating a spacetime rift that can connect "in-universe dimensions" won't be same, distances btw universes that has been shown in UA are way more larger than "in universe" dimensions to compromise over with a same kind of device.

A physical distance between universes is completely irrelevant when it comes to portal creation. That's common sense.

Prove then.

We see another universe Reiner, but it's never stated to be a timeline.

 

[Reiner04]

You need the evidence. Parallel world is used interchangeably, so you need to prove that it's all in one universe.

Doesn't matter "parallel world's" word hasn't been used to prove them in universe dimensions so null point and Has been proved in my threads, you go with proving each them wrong.

A physical distance between universes is completely irrelevant when it comes to portal creation. That's common sense

The feasibility of portal is to connect dimensions by reducing the distance between them to 0 that essentially makes it clear to not assume it'll work over the distance it hasn't been shown to work ever.
That's why crosstime gateways like hands of amargada has been shown to have importance unlike nullvoid projector and other in universe dimension connecting devices.

We see another universe Reiner, but it's never stated to be a timeline

Ok, I suppose then the point was null? As I've said countless times by now that dimensions can be universes, in-universe dimensions or axiomatic. Doesn't ring a bell why trying to remind me each time.

 

[Reiner04]

Also I don't really know what's the point of saying "dimensions can be universes" or "parallel world's can be universes" it is as if someone has tried to say that the word dimension only means that they're in universe dimensions. These are null points and doesn't credit or discredit anything.

Hope refutes bring a good evidence next time rather than these null points.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Doesn't matter "parallel world's" word hasn't been used to prove them in universe dimensions so null point and Has been proved in my threads, you go with proving each them wrong.

What did you say here? I genuinely don't know what you wrote.

The feasibility of portal is to connect dimensions by reducing the distance between them to 0 that essentially makes it clear to not assume it'll work over the distance it hasn't been shown to work ever.

Is it stated that the distance is relevant or is this headcannon?

That's why crosstime gateways like hands of amargada has been shown to have importance unlike nullvoid projector.

Eon needs the hands to travel throughout all of time and space but no longer requires this in omniverse. It's also not the first time characters crossed different timelines.

Ok, I suppose then the point was null? As I've said countless times by now that dimensions can be universes, in-universe dimensions or axiomatic. Doesn't ring a bell why trying to remind me each time.

So why ask me to prove something we both already know? Be for real.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Also I don't really know what's the point of saying "dimensions can be universes" or "parallel world's can be universes" it is as if someone has tried to say that the word dimension only means that they're in universe dimensions. These are null points and doesn't credit or discredit anything.

Hope refutes bring a good evidence next time rather than these null points.

No you know what interchangeable means?

 

[Reiner04]

What did you say here? I genuinely don't know what you wrote.

I said it's as clear as **** that dimensions can mean universe, in-universe dimensions and axiomatic. No one saying "dimensions" only means they are the part of the universe bro so what the hell you are even reminding everyone for?

Is it stated that the distance is relevant or is this headcannon?

And so was it ever shown that devices capable of connecting in-universe dimensions are capable of connecting crosstimes? It has been established quite well in UA that connecting crosstime and in-universe dimensions are different things, bringing real world physics to try messing up the establishment won't bring us to anywhere. You would need to prove that devices capable of connecting "in-universe" dimensions can also connect universes as it's something I've never seen in Ben 10 so head canon.

It's also not the first time characters crossed different timelines.

Devices aren't shown to work interchangeably, if a device used to connect in-universe dimensions then it's not shown to be capable of connecting universes and vice versa, you need in verse support for such a ridiculous claim.

So why ask me to prove something we both already know? Be for real

Because you are bringing it as if it has been used to prove Rex dimension is a part of the universe when it has only been used to prove that Rex dimension is not a branching.

No you know what interchangeable means?

As if it has relevancy here?
Are you gonna proceed with dimensions only means universes and try to use it as support?

 

[Reiner04]

Just because our standards says that creating a spacetime rift is enough to connect universes doesn't mean that all kind of devices that creates spacetime rifts in every verse works same when distinction is quite clear to be made, devices capable of creating spacetime rift to connect universes is different than devices capable of creating Spacetime rift to connect in-universe dimensions, when distinction is quite clear in the verse specifically, and if such devices never shown to be used interchangeably and said verse shown to distinct between devices capable of connecting in-universe dimensions and devices capable of connecting universes then it should be treated as per.

What our standards are matters but how verse treat things and has established them matter as well and I am going with considering both rather than piçking one separately to decide over.

 

[Firestorm808]

We see another universe Reiner, but it's never stated to be a timeline.

The cosmology is clarified in OV.

In UA, Paradox takes the gang to "the space beyond" "the universe." In this scene, they only show us two universes depicted as clusters in the black void within the overall timestream. You can consider this the "space between universes" in the present tense.

We are given more context to this "space beyond" universes in OV. After the CTB goes off, Paradox takes Ben to the same space beyond. Here we see numerous clusters. Now, we are given clarity on what each cluster represents. Each cluster represents a branch universe, and those clusters are destroyed, bringing us to the same black void within the overall timestream as before.

If the CTB only destroyed the branching space-time of Ben's Earth, then the other dimensions/space-times (The various versions of the Null Void, Legerdomain, Rex, Dagon, etc.) should have remained in their place as clusters in the black void, but that is not the case. All but one cluster was gone.

Each cluster represents a different universe timeline branch which, in turn, is a collection of space-time dimensions that make up that universe. We only see clusters, not lines, since they are depicted in the present tense.

This matches with how OV treats the term "the universe" collectively.

 

[Reiner04]

At this point, where we just ditched Kevin statement, proceeded with arguments we desire, Dimensions aren't part of the universes, parallel world's aren't inherently part of the universe, Rex dimension is seprate timeline not alternate. What is it? Non of it matters or crediting/discrediting anything at all.

I am not quite sure what kind of refutes has even been presented towards the accepted crt's, it's all seems to going no-where ngl.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

@Firestorm808 I’ll get to you soon.

 

[Reiner04]

@Firestorm808 I’ll get to you soon.

Oke, take your time. I'll wait.

 

[Reiner04]

This thread will be postponed for a month.

 

[Forthegood]

This thread will be postponed for a month.

Fr?? Dang

 

[Reiner04]

Fr?? Dang

Yes.

 

[Firestorm808]

This thread will be postponed for a month.

Can you elaborate on the situation?

 

[Reiner04]

Can you elaborate on the situation?

Zamasu probably will be unavailable for long time. So he asked if it can be postponed.

 

[Lovemovies14]

When will it resume?

 

[Reiner04]

When will it resume?

After a month.

 

[Churchill]

After a month.

So, is this still an ongoing argument cuz it's already been a month now and it seems like there are no other arguments brought up.

 

[Forthegood]

So, is this still an ongoing argument cuz it's already been a month now and it seems like there are no other arguments brought up.

Still waiting for Zamasu chan

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I just finished my finals and I am mentally unprepared for this. But don’t worry.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I'm finally back guys.

The cosmology is clarified in OV.

In UA, Paradox takes the gang to "the space beyond" "the universe." In this scene, they only show us two universes depicted as clusters in the black void within the overall timestream. You can consider this the "space between universes" in the present tense.

We are given more context to this "space beyond" universes in OV. After the CTB goes off, Paradox takes Ben to the same space beyond. Here we see numerous clusters. Now, we are given clarity on what each cluster represents. Each cluster represents a branch universe, and those clusters are destroyed, bringing us to the same black void within the overall timestream as before.

Each cluster represents a different universe timeline branch which, in turn, is a collection of space-time dimensions that make up that universe. We only see clusters, not lines, since they are depicted in the present tense.

This matches with how OV treats the term "the universe" collectively.

This is wrong. Firstly, when NW Ben asks where they are, Paradox says there no need to ask where they are because it's not a place, therefore he can’t answer the question. Whereas in UA, Paradox calls it the space beyond without doubt. Secondly, those are not real timelines, just a visual depiction of them so NW Ben could understand.
Later in the series we see the actual timestream and it looks like a traditional branched timeline, not a universe like in UA or the end of Omniverse.

If the CTB only destroyed the branching space-time of Ben's Earth, then the other dimensions/space-times (The various versions of the Null Void, Legerdomain, Rex, Dagon, etc.) should have remained in their place as clusters in the black void, but that is not the case. All but one cluster was gone.

I never denied the CTB destroyed those dimensions, I only said the Annihilargh didn’t. Furthermore, the recreation of the universe never affected the timestream, as the Mr Smoothie logo was never altered in the past. This means the destruction and recreation of the universe is an event that took place in the timeline, making the universe and timeline two different constructs altogether.

Another thing I'd like to add is the WoG scans being used. This scan was used to prove that Rex’s universe exists inside of Ben's universe. However this one implies that Rex is just a different branched timmeline, a direct contradiction. Ignoring the fact that the entirety of a 2-A universe ultimately reaching.

 

[Reiner04]

This is wrong. Firstly

Why it's wrong when we seen literally same thing in the UA and omniverse? One is just shown from present perspective and the other later on just from entire time. I don't see a single reason to say it's wrong.

I never denied the CTB destroyed those dimensions, I only said the Annihilargh didn’t. Furthermore, the recreation of the universe never affected the timestream, as the Mr Smoothie logo was never altered in the past. This means the destruction and recreation of the universe is an event that took place in the timeline, making the universe and timeline two different constructs altogether.

The point that entire series is a timeloop, alien X recreating the entire universe will involve things that do not change the past as it was (unchanged logo) and change the present as per time travels and what ben sees in the beginning (change logo).

Another thing I'd like to add is the WoG scans being used. This scan was used to prove that Rex’s universe exists inside of Ben's universe. However this one implies that Rex is just a different branched timmeline, a direct contradiction. Ignoring the fact that the entirety of a 2-A universe ultimately reaching.

Absolutely wrong again, the scan only used as evidence to show they're not "branching timelines" nothing more nothing less and Complex question fallacy. The one who wrote the question already assumes that both lives in different universes and so the answer couldn't be given w/o accepting the premise. What Duncan meant is that both of them living in the same earth has high chance, nothing here or there to look into.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Why it's wrong when we seen literally same thing in the UA and omniverse? One is just shown from present perspective and the other later on just from entire time. I don't see a single reason to say it's wrong.

I explained why.

The point that entire series is a timeloop, alien X recreating the entire universe will involve things that do not change the past as it was (unchanged logo) and change the present as per time travels and what ben sees in the beginning (change logo).

Time loop ≠ timesream. The timeloop still affected Maltruant despite being outside the timestream itself. The annihilargh destroying the universe and not affecting the past is direct proof that the universe and branched timeline are not the same thing.

Absolutely wrong again, the scan only used as evidence to show they're not "branching timelines" nothing more nothing less and Complex question fallacy. The one who wrote the question already assumes that both lives in different universes and so the answer couldn't be given w/o accepting the premise. What Duncan meant is that both of them living in the same earth has high chance, nothing here or there to look into.

Even going by Duncan's first statement, he's saying there aren’t Ben 10 counterparts, sure. But he calls their universes two times with two separate histories. Definitely not in the same universe.

 

[Reiner04]

I explained why

I see no contradiction tho.

Time loop ≠ timesream. The timeloop still affected Maltruant despite being outside the timestream itself. The annihilargh destroying the universe and not affecting the past is direct proof that the universe and branched timeline are not the same thing.

I didn't said timeloop = time stream tho. No one ever will. I said everything is predecided so alien x can make adjustments as per so that events do not get altered.

Even going by Duncan's first statement, he's saying there aren’t Ben 10 counterparts, sure. But he calls their universes two times with two separate histories. Definitely not in the same universe.

Duncan first statement is just that Rex dimension and ben dimension are two separate spacetime continuum's like legerdomain or dimension 12 not branched timelines. That's all.