Marvel Comics: The Infinite Universe

[Vasco]

Okay. Can you or somebody else here read through those issues to investigate a bit, and then tell us what you found about this subject, please?

It's stated Atlas became the "AXIS MUNDI" the centre of the world. Seperating father sky from mother earth, so I checked on the meaning of Axis mundi.

In 20th-century comparative mythology, the term axis mundi — also called the cosmic axis, world axis, world pillar, center of the world, or world tree — has been greatly extended to refer to any mythological concept representing "the connection between Heaven and Earth" or the "higher and lower realms.

Axis mundi - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I don't know if I'm misinterpreting it but I don't see how he lifts the entire universe when his on earth and seperating the heavens from earth, so correct me if im wrong just stating what's in the scan.

Hercules did indeed lift the heavens for a period of time. The location where Atlas lifts the heavens is at the centre of the earth itself after zeus made 2 Eagle travel opposite directions where they met was made the centre of the earth and the place to punish Atlas the general of titans. I personally fail to see how carrying the heavens = carrying the universe when he carries it from the earth itself and the earth is also in the universe, so how does this equate to carrying the universe? The first scan stated he lifted the heavens to seperate it from the earth(father sky and mother earth).
Further proof Atlas lifts the heavens from planet earth and above scan stated to be seperating the both. So i disagree till someone cconvinces me how lifting the heavens = High-3A.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

It's stated Atlas became the "AXIS MUNDI" the centre of the world. Seperating father sky from mother earth, so I checked on the meaning of Axis mundi.

In 20th-century comparative mythology, the term axis mundi — also called the cosmic axis, world axis, world pillar, center of the world, or world tree — has been greatly extended to refer to any mythological concept representing "the connection between Heaven and Earth" or the "higher and lower realms.

Axis mundi - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I don't know if I'm misinterpreting it but I don't see how he lifts the entire universe when his on earth and seperating the heavens from earth, so correct me if im wrong just stating what's in the scan.

Hercules did indeed lift the heavens for a period of time. The location where Atlas lifts the heavens is at the centre of the earth itself after zeus made 2 Eagle travel opposite directions where they met was made the centre of the earth and the place to punish Atlas the general of titans. I personally fail to see how carrying the heavens = carrying the universe when he carries it from the earth itself and the earth is also in the universe, so how does this equate to carrying the universe? The first scan stated he lifted the heavens to seperate it from the earth(father sky and mother earth).
Further proof Atlas lifts the heavens from planet earth and above scan stated to be seperating the both. So i disagree till someone cconvinces me how lifting the heavens = High-3A.

Lifting the heavens is High 3-A they have infinitely massively weight, not because it is carrying the universe

 

[Vasco]

Lifting the heavens is High 3-A they have infinitely massively weight, not because it is carrying the universe

Nop, the scan said "Atlas can support infinitely massive weights, including the heavens themselves". It didn't say the heavens have infinitely massively weight we see a comma after the infinitely massively weights statement. Plus I'm not really a fan of guidebook.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Nop, the scan said "Atlas can support infinitely massive weights, including the heavens themselves". It didn't say the heavens have infinitely massively weight we see a comma after the infinitely massively weights statement.

Because it is one of those things that have infinitely massive weight, thus the word "including"

 

[Vasco]

Nothing states so.. just he can also carry the heavens also according to the guidebook statement, he can carry infinitely massive weights, even the guidebook didn't say anything about the heavens having infinitely massive weight.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Atlas can support infinitely massive weights, including the heavens themselves.

The heavens are one of those infinitely massive weights that Atlas can support

 

[Vasco]

The heavens are one of those infinitely massive weights that Atlas can support

Goes against what the comic shown as the only thing Atlas carries is just the heavens unless you can us what this infinitely massive weights are you are wrong.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Goes against what the comic shown as the only thing Atlas carries is just the heavens

Atlas is immeasurably strong, so he is capable of supporting infinitely massive weights, which includes the heavens, which we blatantly see him do. That's what it's saying

 

[Vasco]

Atlas is immeasurably strong, so he is capable of supporting infinitely massive weights, which includes the heavens, which we blatantly see him do

Atlas Is Immeasurably strong according to guidebook not comics plus this can mean anything to hype his strength, capable of supporting infinitely massive weights also guidebook statement, that's what I've been saying we blatantly see him lift the heavens but the heavens haven't been said to have infinite weight.

This can give Atlas possibly infinite lifting strength but Hercules won't scale as the heavens were never once said to have infinite weight both by the comics or guidebook.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

A guidebook that is written according to the comics. Say it is hype or whatever. The point is that Atlas is a super strong being that is strong enough to support infinitely massive weights

And the heavens are one of those things that have infinitely massive weight Atlas can ******* support

 

[Vasco]

Say it is hype or whatever. The point is that Atlas is a super strong being that is strong enough to support infinitely massive weights

And the heavens are one of those infinitely massive weights that Atlas can ******* support

Saying I can lift a table including a chair doesn't mean the table and chair are both the same weight. I've ask you what are the infinitely massive weights? You kept saying it's the heavens, were is it mentioned? You said the heavens are part of infinitely massive weights.
Atlas can support infinitely massive weights, including the heavens themselves E.g Atlas can support massive tables,including the chairs.
How does this equate the chairs having the same weight as the tables?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

The entire guidebook states how Character A can lift how many tons and Character B can lift how many tons. In Atlas' case, the number of tons he can lift is replaced by "infinitely massive weights". The heavens are one of those things that have infinitely massive weight that Atlas can support

 

[KLOL506]

The entire guidebook states how Character A can lift how many tons and Character B can lift how many tons. In Atlas' case, the number of tons he can lift is replaced by "infinitely massive weights". The heavens are one of those things that Atlas supports that have infinitely massive weight

You're getting this completely wrong

Basically what this means is that the heavens are added on top of the infinitely massive weights.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

I don't see how you can read that statement as anything but the heavens being infinite.
The analogy used does not work at all, no one says "I can lift massive tables, including the chairs". The chairs can't be included, they're not tables, so they can't be classified as them. Here, it's saying he can lift these infinite weights, and is listing the heavens as an example of one of those.

Arguing against the guidebook's credibility might be a useable argument, but only if the guide is contradicted by what happened in the comic.

 

[Eficiente]

Just because they can lift around 100 tons doesn't mean they can't lift more

I said around because sometimes they say "over 100 tons", sometimes they only say "100 tons", sometimes they say "up to 100 tons", and sometimes they throw lower scales to comparable characters. This is clearly what they state as a limit, which is wrong when looking at the bigger picture, but in their own narrative this is what they can do, which means they being able to do literally infinitely more is a contradiction.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

The feat still is Universal LS, I guess ?

 

[Vasco]

In Atlas' case, the number of tons he can lift is replaced by "infinitely massive weights". The heavens are one of those things that have infinitely massive weight that Atlas can support

I already said he can get possibly infinite LS, It's states he can lift infinitely massive weights including the heavens not the heavens have infinitely massive weight.

I don't see how you can read that statement as anything but the heavens being infinite.
The analogy used does not work at all, no one says "I can lift massive tables, including the chairs". The chairs can't be included, they're not tables, so they can't be classified as them. Here, it's saying he can lift these infinite weights, and is listing the heavens as an example of one of those.

Arguing against the guidebook's credibility might be a useable argument, but only if the guide is contradicted by what happened in the comic.

And where does it states the heavens itself being infinite? I read all the issues he gave and no statement of infinite was mentioned even the guidebook never states it to be infinite.
I meant in the sense someone states he can lift massive tables plus adds on like chairs if handed on top for the said person to carry also. It's said he can infinite weights including the heavens not the heavens having infinite weights or an example, unless you bring blatant proof I disagree.
And neither the guidebook nor comics made any statement of the heavens itself being infinite or it having infinite weights, just he can lift infinite weights including the heavens among them. Besides I already agree for possible infinite LS Atlas due to statement of him being immeasurably strong and can carry infinitely massive weight. But if you bring proof not just a single statement that can be misinterpreted I'd have to agree with you then cause the comics never made such statement and guidebook didn't directly state so.

Can I see the guidebook statement on the heavens Atlas carries? Might make it easier for us then.

 

[Excellence616]

Atlas can support infinite weight and the only thing we have seen him support is the heavens which might imply that the heavens have infinite weight.

 

[Vasco]

Yeah I agree for possibly infinite LS for Atlas, the heavens were never stated to be though just included as another thing he could carry with the infinite weights. I'm doubtful cause no statement in the comics said it to have infinite weights but the guidebook makes it seem to be in a way.

We could simply give both "possibly" infinite LS.

 

[Antvasima]

Unlikely it would be limited to just the observable portion. Something about the Axis Mundi was also mentioned in the scan of Atlas. Or something.

Prolly we can differentiate between feats that state "universe" and "entire universe". "Universe" could refer to the observable portion, and "entire universe" could refer to the observable portion + void.

Speaking of which, Atlas needs a profile.

I am not referring to the observable universe. I am referring to the entire regular universe, up until its explicitly displayed border/The Crunch, which has now been increased tenfold during the Reckoning War event.

However, its not like an actual direction/real dimension should logically ever end, so outside of all of the matter created by the local Big Bang, there should still be an infinite empty void that is likely filled with other local 3-dimensional universes created in a similar manner, just like in our own real world.

 

[KLOL506]

I am not referring to the observable universe. I am referring to the entire regular universe, up until its explicitly displayed border/The Crunch, which has now been increased tenfold during the Reckoning War event.

However, its not like an actual direction/real dimension should logically ever end, so outside of all of the matter created by the local Big Bang, there should still be an infinite empty void that is likely filled with other local 3-dimensional universes created in a similar manner, just like in our own real world.

Hmmmmmmmm. Not sure, first time I'm hearing of this "direction" related story. I'll wait for the opinions of some experts.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, regarding Atlas, I am just very doubtful about if we should really scale anybody to a value as high as infinity from the recurrently unreliable handbooks alone (which have long lied about anything from character strength levels in general to Odin not even having planetary power), especially if the best value we can logically get from the comic books themselves is universal strength, if we interpret the heavens as not just being the Earth's atmosphere.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmmmmmmmm. Not sure, first time I'm hearing of this "direction" related story. I'll wait for the opinions of some experts.

I was referring to what I have read about how our real world universe works, combined with that we have been shown explicit evidence for that the regular Marvel universe very much has a border (and that the Negative Zone lies beyond it, if I do not misremember) during the original Annihilation event.

 

[Gasper]

Wouldn't it be better to say that the specific comic from where the feat is taken needs to mention infinite universe? Marvel universes are very inconsistent. Some where stated to be finite and even given a proper size.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the problem is that virtually all of the statements of infinity can more easily be taken as unproven hyperbolic flowery language, whereas we have repeatedly been shown explicit evidence of the Marvel universe being finite as significant parts of major storyline events.

 

[Vasco]

Though I agree with Infinite universe size but statement of trillions of light years and universe stated to reduce to a tenth it's original size is a problem, Gasper proposal seems kinda okay.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, and we were also shown a literal border of the Marvel universe during the Annihilation event, that was stated to be such by Galactus, and that was also shown to lead to the Negative Zone, which seems to be the neighbouring universe, and Thanos was transported to the literal center of the universe once, which wouldn't work if it was infinite.

 

[Kulf_Boba]

Wouldn't it be better to say that the specific comic from where the feat is taken needs to mention infinite universe? Marvel universes are very inconsistent. Some where stated to be finite and even given a proper size.

This "inconsistency" is rather due to the fact that TOAA itself represents all writers, so the cosmology and power of the characters varies greatly by their opinion.

Therefore, it seems correct that only "infinite" feats of speed and AP are taken if the writer of the story considers the universe to be infinite.

 

[Gasper]

This "inconsistency" is rather due to the fact that TOAA itself represents all writers, so the cosmology and power of the characters varies greatly by their opinion.

Therefore, it seems correct that only "infinite" feats of speed and AP are taken if the writer of the story considers the universe to be infinite.

It feels like TOAA is always an excuse for any inconsistency. Sometimes feels like wank.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, the evidence for a a finite local universe is very explicit and set in stone, whereas the evidence for an infinite universe seem like far more unreliable hyperbolic claims or figures of speech that would cause far to extreme inconsistencies, especially for speed statistics.

 

[Gasper]

I actually think universes in marvel being infinite in size isn't a big deal, but keep in mind that not all of them are infinite in size. That's also one of the reasons why i think scaling marvel (or dc for that matter) is sometime pretty tiresome.

 

[Kulf_Boba]

It feels like TOAA is always an excuse for any inconsistency. Sometimes feels like wank.

Why would it be a wank?

Jason Aaron's Thor is not as powerful as Stan Lee's or Greg Pak's Sentry is much weaker than Paul Jenkins' etc etc.

There are inconsistencies between all the writers and you already have an explanation as to why they happen.


Besides, weren't they going to update the cosmology based on what I said about TOAA?

 

[Kulf_Boba]

Also, the evidence for a a finite local universe is very explicit and set in stone, whereas the evidence for an infinite universe seem like far more unreliable hyperbolic claims or figures of speech that would cause far to extreme inconsistencies, especially for speed statistics.

The infinite universe has been enunciated by a large number of characters and narrators who have weight in their words, a universe of infinite size cannot be represented except by means of delarations.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it has repeatedly been very explicitly proven that the universes are finite in size, and it would create far too extreme speed inconsistencies otherwise, but they likely function similarly to our own universe in that space continues infinitely outside of each universal cluster, so it depends on your definition of the word "universe".

 

[Vasco]

Why would it be a wank?

Jason Aaron's Thor is not as powerful as Stan Lee's or Greg Pak's Sentry is much weaker than Paul Jenkins' etc etc.

There are inconsistencies between all the writers and you already have an explanation as to why they happen.


Besides, weren't they going to update the cosmology based on what I said about TOAA?

I don't see how this infinite universe thread has anything to do with TOAA.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it is true that the writers are extremely inconsistent, but let's drop the OAA discussion, yes.

 

[Kulf_Boba]

I don't see how this infinite universe thread has anything to do with TOAA.

The universe may vary in characteristics according to your opinion.

 

[Vasco]

Not my opinion but that of the writers in what's written in their books, My opinion has nothing on how the marvel universe should be except how the writers make it so (by leaving it to our imagination) and they gave the sizes of the universe. My opinion has nothing to do with it since the sizes are given.

 

[Kulf_Boba]

Well, it has repeatedly been very explicitly proven that the universes are finite in size

Faced with hundreds of statements of the universe with infinite size.

and it would create far too extreme speed inconsistencies otherwise

what inconsistency would it create in terms of speed?

but they likely function similarly to our own universe in that space continues infinitely outside of each universal cluster, so it depends on your definition of the word "universe".

Where does that come from, the universe? The infinite universe statements don't seem to hint at anything you've mentioned, unless you make more assumptions than to suppose that these decllations simply say that the space of the universe itself is infinite.

 

[Kulf_Boba]

Not my opinion but that of the writers in what's written in their books, My opinion has nothing on how the marvel universe should be except how the writers make it so (by leaving it to our imagination) and they gave the sizes of the universe. My opinion has nothing to do with it since the sizes are given.

Sorry, I meant TOAA's opinion.