Fantastic Four & Doctor Doom speed revisions

[Eseseso]

1. The Fantastic Four do have some MFTL+ feats of their own, through either scaling or through actual feats.

One example is, from Fantastic Four Annual #24, when Reed Richards successfully blocked an Ultimate Nullifier Blast that came from a distant planet, which was calced here at 3.4 billion times the speed of light.

Before people claim that this is an outlier, there are other feats for the Fantastic Four.

For example, Susan Storm has reacted to the likes of:

• A starving Galactus, who while starving is scaled as faster than Silver Surfer.
• The Impossible Man, who is MFTL+.
• Mad Celestials.

Note: I do not think that any F4 member scales to the Mad Celestials in speed, as Infinite speed for them would be a humungous outlier. That said, it shows that they can react to people on this level.

2. Doctor Doom, at the very least, should be MFTL+ with magic, as while using magic he has fought evenly alongside Doctor Strange, who is also MFTL+, on at least three separate occasions: Against Kulan Gath (Savage Avengers Volume 1 #9-#10), Out-of-Hell Mephisto, who even outside of Hell is MFTL+ via scaling to the Silver Surfer (Infamous Iron Man 11-12), and against the forces of Mephisto in Mephisto's own realm (Doctor Strange: Triumph and Torment), the last of which especially notable since it took place away from Earth (and were facing the forces of Mephisto, who dwarfed their combined power) and thus there is nothing saying Strange would be "holding back".

Thus, I believe that the Fantastic Four should be, at minimum, "At least Hypersonic, up to MFTL+ Combat Speed", as should those who scale to them (such as Base Doctor Doom), just like how the Hulk's standard form is Hypersonic with MFTL+ combat speed. And this does scale to all the F4, as all of them have kept up with each other, and all have kept up with Doctor Doom and vice versa.

Also, Doom should be simply "up to MFTL+" with magic, as we have seen him with magic keep up with Doctor Strange during their team ups time and time again.

Agreements with Proposal 1 (MFTL+ Fantastic 4, Base Doom, etc.): @Lonkitt, @ShionAH


Agreements with Proposal 2 (MFTL+ Doom with magic, etc.): @Lonkitt, @ShionAH, @Marvel_Champion_07, @Armorchompy, @Lightning_XXI, @Excel616

 

[KLOL506]

@Ultima_Reality @Planck69 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Emirp sumitpo @KingTempest @UchihaSlayer96 @Qawsedf234 @LordTracer @DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa @Confluctor @Maverick_Zero_X @LordGriffin1000 Your assistance here would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Lonkitt]

I’m admittedly fine with the proposals, so you can mark me as agreeing

 

[ShionAH]

Looks good to me

 

[KingTempest]

No

Not because it's wrong, which it isn't

But because you're making the upgrade.

I'm just kidding. This is a calc separate from VSBW. It needs a VSBW blog. So idk if you wanna transfer it, but it can't be from that site

On top of that, these are the comics. There should be a lot more people who scale

 

[Eseseso]

No

Not because it's wrong, which it isn't

But because you're making the upgrade.

Understandable have a great day.

I'm just kidding. This is a calc separate from VSBW. It needs a VSBW blog. So idk if you wanna transfer it, but it can't be from that site

I mean, the Fantastic Four profiles literally link to narutoforums calcs, though that could just be since they're horribly outdated.

On top of that, these are the comics. There should be a lot more people who scale

I can get a list, and IMO no one like Captain America or Spider Man scales for what should be very obvious reasons.

Off the top of my head:

• Namor
• Blue Marvel
• Anti-Man
• Annihilus
• Probably any other 5-B in Marvel.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

• Namor
• Blue Marvel
• Anti-Man
• Annihilus
• Probably any other 5-B in Marvel.

"any other 5-B"? Isnt that going too far?
Captain Mar-vell is scaling of Namor underwater which means he would scale higher than this.
Ronan is scaling of The thing which means he will scale too.
Super Skrull having the fantastic 4 powers and scales with the thing.
Even Hulkling scales to Super Skrull and fantastic 4 for having his powers.

Isnt this gonna affect way too many characters?
This seems to going to amp a lot of characters and might end up causing scaling issues.

 

[Armorchompy]

I can get a list, and IMO no one like Captain America or Spider Man scales for what should be very obvious reasons.

Eh, no. Contextually it makes zero sense for these people to be any faster than any other street tier. I can bring you just as many scans of someone like Taskmaster hurting them.

So no, I disagree, unless you wanna upgrade literally everyone to MFTL+ this is an outlier.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Eh, no. Contextually it makes zero sense for these people to be any faster than any other street tier. I can bring you just as many scans of someone like Taskmaster hurting them.

So no, I disagree, unless you wanna upgrade literally everyone to MFTL+ this is an outlier.

I dont think them being street level is ok but i also agree that MFTL+ is too much even more if its in the billions of times the speed of light

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Though I do think they should be higher than Hypersonic, MFTL+ might be a bit much

I'll stay neutral though, and wait for further input

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I don't know why Susan's feats make Reed's one feat any less of an outlier. They're two different characters with separate power mechanics and Sue is on occasion portrayed as potentially the strongest of the Fantastic Four. Scaling between the two of them is kind of a non-sequitur.

 

[Excellence616]

As much as I want to agree, this will affect 5-Bs, so neutral for now

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I don't know why Susan's feats make Reed's one feat any less of an outlier. They're two different characters with separate power mechanics and Sue is on occasion portrayed as potentially the strongest of the Fantastic Four. Scaling between the two of them is kind of a non-sequitur.

I dont think strongest is the right word, strongest would be the thing, Susan being the most powerful sure.
And despite disagreeing with the threat i have to say being most powerful or strongest doesnt necessarily makes them faster.

 

[Eseseso]

I don't know why Susan's feats make Reed's one feat any less of an outlier. They're two different characters with separate power mechanics and Sue is on occasion portrayed as potentially the strongest of the Fantastic Four. Scaling between the two of them is kind of a non-sequitur.

They've fought the same people, including Doctor Doom.

But if you think only some of the F4 should scale and not others, that's a possibility.

Eh, no. Contextually it makes zero sense for these people to be any faster than any other street tier. I can bring you just as many scans of someone like Taskmaster hurting them.

So no, I disagree, unless you wanna upgrade literally everyone to MFTL+ this is an outlier.

The difference is that people like the F4, Doom, and others have actually interacted with cosmic threats that are Herald level and higher, and are portrayed as being on that level even if they are somewhat weaker.

The same can't be said for street level.

But even then, that's why I said only their combat speed would be MFTL+, which is exactly what we do for the Hulk right now.

 

[Eseseso]

2. Doctor Doom, at the very least, should be MFTL+ with magic, as while using magic he has fought evenly alongside Doctor Strange, who is also MFTL+, on at least three separate occasions: Against Kulan Gath (Savage Avengers series), Out-of-Hell Mephisto, who even outside of Hell is MFTL+ via scaling to the Silver Surfer (Infamous Iron Man 11-12), and against the forces of Mephisto in Mephisto's own realm (Doctor Strange: Triumph and Torment), the last of which especially notable since it took place away from Earth (and were facing the forces of Mephisto, who dwarfed their combined power) and thus there is nothing saying Strange would be "holding back".




Also, Doom should be simply "up to MFTL+" with magic, as we have seen him with magic keep up with Doctor Strange during their team ups time and time again.

Any thoughts on this?

None of the Fantastic Four or Street level people scale to Magic-Amped Doom, so no outliers here.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I mean, the Fantastic Four profiles literally link to narutoforums calcs, though that could just be since they're horribly outdated.

Then that needs to change, because every calc that's used on this site needs to be blogged on the wiki and approved by our CGMs.

As for this proposal itself, I'll wait till the calc is properly blogged and accepted first, and then see what the experts think of the scaling and whatnot, since I'm admittedly no expert.

 

[Eseseso]

Even without the calc, Reed intercepting the Ultimate Nullifier beams from outer space is clearly an MFTL+ feat.

 

[Armorchompy]

The difference is that people like the F4, Doom, and others have actually interacted with cosmic threats that are Herald level and higher, and are portrayed as being on that level even if they are somewhat weaker.

The same can't be said for street level.

It definitely can. There's dozens of instances of someone like Wolverine or Spider-Man being comparable in speed to heralds, I'm sure you can think of some of them yourself.

But even then, that's why I said only their combat speed would be MFTL+, which is exactly what we do for the Hulk right now.

That's the main speed rating, it's not really an "only" thing, it's like saying "I only scaled someone's physicals to this tier".

 

[Eseseso]

Once again, any thoughts on proposal 2 for Doom with magic?

I understand there is contention about part 1 (and I might just remove the calc since the scan itself is still clearly showing an MFTL+ feat), but Part 2 doesn't affect scaling for anyone.

It definitely can. There's dozens of instances of someone like Wolverine or Spider-Man being comparable in speed to heralds, I'm sure you can think of some of them yourself.

Wolverine is his own case, but I'll look into Spider-Man (since he is absurdly inconsistent)

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Doctor Doom, at the very least, should be MFTL+ with magic, as while using magic he has fought evenly alongside Doctor Strange, who is also MFTL+, on at least three separate occasions: Against Kulan Gath (Savage Avengers series), Out-of-Hell Mephisto, who even outside of Hell is MFTL+ via scaling to the Silver Surfer (Infamous Iron Man 11-12), and against the forces of Mephisto in Mephisto's own realm (Doctor Strange: Triumph and Torment), the last of which especially notable since it took place away from Earth (and were facing the forces of Mephisto, who dwarfed their combined power) and thus there is nothing saying Strange would be "holding back".

Doom with magic was also capable of keeping up with and hitting "Herald Doombots" that were compared to the Silver Surfer himself (from Marvel 2-in-One #6).

Also, Doom should be simply "up to MFTL+" with magic, as we have seen him with magic keep up with Doctor Strange during their team ups time and time again.

I'm fine with this

 

[Armorchompy]

Wolverine is his own case, but I'll look into Spider-Man (since he is absurdly inconsistent)

WYM "his own case"? Wolverine is unquestionably street tier in speed, but he's got plenty of showings of fighting the Hulk on even (speed) grounds. Hell Thor has even admitted Logan's faster than him.

It's just a massive inconsistency in Marvel powerscaling, heralds aren't really usually portrayed as faster than lower tiers, but they have much greater speed feats, while the lower tiers tend to struggle with relatively slow stuff. We choose to prioritize their own feats over their portrayal relative to non-heralds, but that does mean we can't have them scale to said lower tiers.

MFTL+ magic is fine though

 

[Eseseso]

WYM "his own case"? Wolverine is unquestionably street tier in speed, but he's got plenty of showings of fighting the Hulk on even (speed) grounds. Hell Thor has even admitted Logan's faster than him.

What I meant is that Wolverine, despite being street level, has done Herald-level stuff that is even noted on his profile (albeit only with his adamantium claws).

It's just a massive inconsistency in Marvel powerscaling, heralds aren't really usually portrayed as faster than lower tiers, but they have much greater speed feats, while the lower tiers tend to struggle with relatively slow stuff. We choose to prioritize their own feats over their portrayal relative to non-heralds, but that does mean we can't have them scale to said lower tiers.

I guess that makes sense.

MFTL+ magic is fine though

Thank you.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

It seemed okay at first but looking at all the scaling on these characters, yeah, it becomes problematic, an outlier sometimes is about others who will scale and I guess you can say this is one of those cases

I support MFTL+ Doom Magic aswell

 

[Excellence616]

I agree with Proposal 2

 

[Eseseso]

Btw minor thing but if/when Proposal 2 is accepted, I would like to add Strange scaling in speed to Mephisto (who even at is weakest is above the Siver Surfer) to Strange's profile alongside Magic Doom's, since as of right now Strange's speed section has multiple feats that, while all definitely MFTL, don't scale to any calc.

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[Eseseso]

So Doom being MFTL+ only with magic seems to be unanimously accepted, including by 2 voting staff and one other staff member (MarvelChampion), so if no one has any issue with proposal 2, I'll add that to Doom's profile soon.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

So Doom being MFTL+ only with magic seems to be unanimously accepted, including by 2 voting staff and one other staff member (MarvelChampion), so if no one has any issue with proposal 2, I'll add that to Doom's profile soon.

I still fell bad that F4 will be kept that low cant you find other feats lightning like rather than MFTL+?

 

[Eseseso]

I still fell bad that F4 will be kept that low cant you find other feats lightning like rather than MFTL+?

I found a high hypersonic one but it's also on Narutoforums.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I found a high hypersonic one but it's also on Narutoforums.

A calc?

 

[Eseseso]

A calc?

Yep. I'd have to find it though.

 

[Eseseso]

So Doom being MFTL+ only with magic seems to be unanimously accepted, including by 2 voting staff and one other staff member (MarvelChampion), so if no one has any issue with proposal 2, I'll add that to Doom's profile soon.

2 voting staff and one other staff agree, and this scales to no one else so it shouldn't be controversial, so I'll add this to Doom's page.

Also:

I'm fine with this

Btw minor thing but if/when Proposal 2 is accepted, I would like to add Strange scaling in speed to Mephisto (who even at is weakest is above the Siver Surfer) to Strange's profile alongside Magic Doom's, since as of right now Strange's speed section has multiple feats that, while all definitely MFTL, don't scale to any calc.

Champion, think you can open Strange's page?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Champion, think you can open Strange's page?

Done

 

[Eseseso]

Done

Thank you!

You can close Strange's page now!

 

[Excellence616]

Should this be closed?