Marvel Comics: The Infinite Universe

[Antvasima]

The problem is that we have been given a rather large number of vague or poetic unproven statements, but that we have had it explicitly proven in other stories that the part of the Marvel universe that is populated by stars and planets is definitely finite, so we basically have to use the solution that I mentioned earlier to establish some measure of coherence.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I think the matter of infinite sized universes and scaling characters to infinite speed should be evaluated completely seperate. There’s no way infinite speed heralds is remotely consistent, but inconsistent speed ratings has no bearing as to if the universes are infinite.

Sorry but I hard disagree, they are entirely connected

My m.o when doing CRTs is to try to consider every consequence for an upgrade, and liking it or not, making the universe Infinite makes every feat of (completely) crossing it, well, Infinite. I say that, but I actually don't think that's the case here, I agree that most feats aren't really explicitly described as crossing all the scope of the universe, but usually something like "from a universe away" or similar, which could it be just about regular/somewhat Universal distances, since it's inside an Infinite Universe, that's completely possible. With that in mind I think it's likely that most, if not all feats won't qualify for Infinite speed (I don't remember one so specific), and the few ones that may or not appear can be seen as simple outliers when considering all the inconsistencies they create

It would be different if we had multiple statements of clear Infinite speed, since we wouldn't be able to call them Outliers like that, and eventually, I would be against Infinite Universe for creating numerous scaling problems

Also, I also dislike the idea of taking the Universe being Infinite as "Possibly", even if it's just a few quotes, most authors don't even go into details of the universe's size, they just call them "Universe", maybe someone can list quotes or scans that imply a Finite Universe ?

And for the last topic, if accepted, I think we should move the feats that became High 3-A to their "2-C at peak" ratings instead of nuking their 3-C rating, said level isn't there for lack of better feats, otherwise they would just be 2-C, but to show their casual to normal levels, which are consistent with 4-A to 3-C even without the ones with potential to become High 3-A

 

[Vasco]

His shockwaves literally covered an infinite number of universes

Iirc he was in a location that's like a gateway to all infinite universes when this happened not that he can just perform such feat anytime cause no feat he has proved he has done so before.

 

[KLOL506]

Iirc he was in a location that's like a gateway to all infinite universes when this happened not that he can just perform such feat anytime cause no feat he has proved he has done so before.

Ant told me the full context.

 

[KLOL506]

The problem is that we have been given a rather large number of vague or poetic unproven statements, but that we have had it explicitly proven in other stories that the part of the Marvel universe that is populated by stars and planets is definitely finite, so we basically have to use the solution that I mentioned earlier to establish some measure of coherence.

Alternatively, we could thoroughly differentiate between the two types of universes they affect with their feats.

We could judge when they affect the finite portion, or when they affect the infinite portion. Via statements of course.

 

[Vasco]

I wasn't thinking about the 2-C stuff.

I mean roughly half of the OP's statements for an infinite universe seem valid to me, but Infinite Speed is a massive no-no.

My exacts thoughts also, the infinite speed to characters like Thor or Silver surfer would be good but personally just for travel speed cause I personally have never seen such characters fight at infinite level speed itself.

Agree with H-3A universes disagree with infinite speed heralds if anyone proposed that.

 

[KLOL506]

My exacts thoughts also, the infinite speed to characters like Thor or Silver surfer would be good but personally just for travel speed cause I personally have never seen such characters fight at infinite level speed itself.

Again, that argument would work only if they had it as attack speed or combat speed/reactions. This doesn't work for travel speed at all because they'd need comparable reactions to react to adjusting their trajectory at infinite speed, in other words, infinite travel speed = infinite combat speed and reactions, but infinite combat speed and reactions =/= infinite travel speed without proof that they can move as fast as their attacks (Because they only have parts of their body in control here, not their entire body in tandem). Infinity divided by anything is still infinity.

Agree with H-3A universes disagree with infinite speed heralds if anyone proposed that.

Really, the only problem now is consistency of the number of said Infinite speed feats versus finite speed feats. Given that this is Marvel of course. Or finding the ratio between the finite universe traversal feats or the infinite universe traversal feats.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

it was explicitly stated to be roughly a trillion lightyears wide

Are you referring to the 2019 Avengers #26 scan?

I am pretty sure they didn't really state that the universe was 1 Trillion light years they just stated that “worlds were getting destroyed” from a trillion light years away

 

[Hasty12345]

Sorry but I hard disagree, they are entirely connected

My m.o when doing CRTs is to try to consider every consequence for an upgrade, and liking it or not, making the universe Infinite makes every feat of (completely) crossing it, well, Infinite. I say that, but I actually don't think that's the case here, I agree that most feats aren't really explicitly described as crossing all the scope of the universe, but usually something like "from a universe away" or similar, which could it be just about regular/somewhat Universal distances, since it's inside an Infinite Universe, that's completely possible. With that in mind I think it's likely that most, if not all feats won't qualify for Infinite speed (I don't remember one so specific), and the few ones that may or not appear can be seen as simple outliers when considering all the inconsistencies they create

It would be different if we had multiple statements of clear Infinite speed, since we wouldn't be able to call them Outliers like that, and eventually, I would be against Infinite Universe for creating numerous scaling problems

Also, I also dislike the idea of taking the Universe being Infinite as "Possibly", even if it's just a few quotes, most authors don't even go into details of the universe's size, they just call them "Universe", maybe someone can list quotes or scans that imply a Finite Universe ?

And for the last topic, if accepted, I think we should move the feats that became High 3-A to their "2-C at peak" ratings instead of nuking their 3-C rating, said level isn't there for lack of better feats, otherwise they would just be 2-C, but to show their casual to normal levels, which are consistent with 4-A to 3-C even without the ones with potential to become High 3-A

My point was more “heralds being infinite speed is likely inconsistent” not that “they don’t have infinite speed feats”.
And whether or not we should upgraded heralds to infinite speed is independent of whether or not the universe is infinite. because the universe can be consistently infinite whilst infinite speed can be outliers for those characters.

 

[Firestorm808]

It seems consistent that Stan Lee established it as infinite.

 

[Excellence616]

I agree with the High 3-A but only for Heralds that have consistently proven to be on that level like Thor, Silver Surfer, Beta Ray Bill, Hulk, Sentry, Thanos etc. But for the Infinite speed, a different Thread should be created.

 

[Vasco]

Again, that argument would work only if they had it as attack speed or combat speed/reactions. This doesn't work for travel speed at all because they'd need comparable reactions to react to adjusting their trajectory at infinite speed, in other words, infinite travel speed = infinite combat speed and reactions, but infinite combat speed and reactions =/= infinite travel speed without proof that they can move as fast as their attacks (Because they only have parts of their body in control here, not their entire body in tandem). Infinity divided by anything is still infinity.


Really, the only problem now is consistency of the number of said Infinite speed feats versus finite speed feats. Given that this is Marvel of course. Or finding the ratio between the finite universe traversal feats or the infinite universe traversal feats.

I agree with you using logic yes that would be true but comics wise it's very inconsistent to think Thor,Silver surfer especially Hulk to have infinite speed nothing in any book makes it so.

Thor on the other hand might have immeasurable speed from a book I read long ago

 

[Vasco]

Are you referring to the 2019 Avengers #26 scan?

I am pretty sure they didn't really state that the universe was 1 Trillion light years they just stated that “worlds were getting destroyed” from a trillion light years away

I'm pretty sure that's why "Atleast" is normally used though should be far higher also I agree with "infinite universe" has more statements than "finite".

 

[KLOL506]

I agree with you using logic yes that would be true but comics wise it's very inconsistent to think Thor,Silver surfer especially Hulk to have infinite speed nothing in any book makes it so.

Then just call it an outlier. Plain and simple.

 

[Antvasima]

Alternatively, we could thoroughly differentiate between the two types of universes they affect with their feats.

We could judge when they affect the finite portion, or when they affect the infinite portion. Via statements of course.

Well, we would definitely have to only use very reliable statements, and not consider any of the travel feats as crossing all of the infinite 3-dimensional space outside of the local universe.

I largely agree with Lightning_XXI though:

Sorry but I hard disagree, they are entirely connected

My m.o when doing CRTs is to try to consider every consequence for an upgrade, and liking it or not, making the universe Infinite makes every feat of (completely) crossing it, well, Infinite. I say that, but I actually don't think that's the case here, I agree that most feats aren't really explicitly described as crossing all the scope of the universe, but usually something like "from a universe away" or similar, which could it be just about regular/somewhat Universal distances, since it's inside an Infinite Universe, that's completely possible. With that in mind I think it's likely that most, if not all feats won't qualify for Infinite speed (I don't remember one so specific), and the few ones that may or not appear can be seen as simple outliers when considering all the inconsistencies they create

It would be different if we had multiple statements of clear Infinite speed, since we wouldn't be able to call them Outliers like that, and eventually, I would be against Infinite Universe for creating numerous scaling problems

Also, I also dislike the idea of taking the Universe being Infinite as "Possibly", even if it's just a few quotes, most authors don't even go into details of the universe's size, they just call them "Universe", maybe someone can list quotes or scans that imply a Finite Universe ?

And for the last topic, if accepted, I think we should move the feats that became High 3-A to their "2-C at peak" ratings instead of nuking their 3-C rating, said level isn't there for lack of better feats, otherwise they would just be 2-C, but to show their casual to normal levels, which are consistent with 4-A to 3-C even without the ones with potential to become High 3-A

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with the High 3-A but only for Heralds that have consistently proven to be on that level like Thor, Silver Surfer, Beta Ray Bill, Hulk, Sentry, Thanos etc. But for the Infinite speed, a different Thread should be created.

For practical reasons, we would have to make a distinction between feats that refer to shaking all infinite 3-dimensional space and travelling across the local established to be finite universe/cluster of galaxies.

 

[Antvasima]

Then just call it an outlier. Plain and simple.

I think that we would not be able to use almost any higher speed scaling unless we use my solution, rather than just discarding all of the highest level travel feats as outliers.

 

[Eficiente]

An universe having an edge doesn't disprove that it isn't infinite, so as you say that doesn't necessarely debunk infinite size.

It does. Marvel's not making borders that are just as infinite as the universe, or shrinking the infinite universe, or removing it a dimenion for display.

Those edges are finite, which disproves the universe being infinite. Also, the universe has a core essence, and a center, if you want to argue that the core essence of the universe isn't in its center then sure, whatever (it should be in a center due to being a core, meaning that the universe isn't infinite), but Thanos turning himself in the universe, then back normal & ending up in the center of the universe because of that makes perfect sense, that couldn't be more solid.

The consistency of the feats of High 3-A and Infinite Speed should have no bearing on the size of the universe's space. AT ALL.

They would in fact, there is no reason to say otherwise as a rule. If the characters who travel across the universe (in a way that would scale to its would-be infinite size) are proven to not have infinite speed (which is very consistent) then this can be interpreted as displays of the universe not being infinite.

I disagree with this as even a "possibly".

 

[Vasco]

They would in fact, there is no reason to say otherwise as a rule. If the characters who travel across the universe (in a way that would scale to its would-be infinite size) are proven to not have infinite speed (which is very consistent) then this can be interpreted as displays of the universe not being infinite.

Agree with this.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, combined with the examples and reasoning that I mentioned earlier, I think that it seems best to continue to consider the regular stars- and galaxies-filled universe (as opposed to the empty void surrounding it) to be a trillion lightyears wide then (I may misremember the exact number though).

 

[Vasco]

I kinda agree with infinite universe in marvel's 90s comics and times after that till maybe before the trillion light years statement but I will leave it for you and Efficiente to talk on.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it doesn't make sense for the part of the Marvel universe that was filled with physical matter to be infinite, given that we have explicitly been shown evidence that it has an edge (The Crunch), a center, and that it was reduced to a tenth of its original size via widespread warfare during the Reckoning War event, and we have also been given a useful concrete number for its size. And in addition to that we would end up with extremely exaggerated speed statistics if we consider it to be infinite.

We might have to change quite a lot of lifting strength statistics from infinite to universal though.

 

[KLOL506]

Well, combined with the examples and reasoning that I mentioned earlier, I think that it seems best to continue to consider the regular stars- and galaxies-filled universe (as opposed to the empty void surrounding it) to be a trillion lightyears wide then (I may misremember the exact number though).

That is my suggestion, yes.

We can look for statements that qualify for affecting said void or traversing the entire void later.

 

[Kulf_Boba]

See Thor: God of Thunder by Jaon Aaron where the edge of the universe is discussed.

 

[KLOL506]

Well, it doesn't make sense for the part of the Marvel universe that was filled with physical matter to be infinite, given that we have explicitly been shown evidence that it has an edge (The Crunch), a center, and that it was reduced to a tenth of its original size via widespread warfare during the Reckoning War event, and we have also been given a useful contrete number for its size. And in addition to that we would end up with extremely exaggerated speed statistics if we consider it to be infinite.

We might have to change quite a lot of lifting strength statistics from infinite to universal though.

Assuming the void got reduced as well, possibly.

 

[Antvasima]

That is my suggestion, yes.

We can look for statements that qualify for affecting said void or traversing the entire void later.

Thank you for being reasonable. We seem to have reached an agreement here then.

See Thor: God of Thunder by Jaon Aaron where the edge of the universe is discussed.

Can you link to the relevant scan from that story please? I remember the edge of the universe being shown to be The Crunch in a Silver Surfer story with Aegis and Tenebrous right after the first Annihilation event.

Assuming the void got reduced as well, possibly.

Did Hercules lift the entire infinite three-dimensional void (that is likely filled with an infinite number of other universes), or just the local universe?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Hercules lift the entire infinite three-dimensional void (that is likely filled with an infinite number of other universes), or just the local universe?

He supported "the heavens" in place of Atlas, which have infinitely massive weight

Atlas can support infinitely massively weights, including the heavens themselves.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that is probably fine, but it should preferably be backed up by us verifying via the Marvel comic book stories that Atlas appeared in, especially The Incredible Hercules, as the Marvel handbooks recurrently change certain key points from the comic books they are based on.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Atlas has barely made any appearances in Marvel comics, but his appearances in The Incredible Hercules don't seem to contradict what the handbook says

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Can you or somebody else here read through those issues to investigate a bit, and then tell us what you found about this subject, please?

 

[Vasco]

The Incredible Hercules
it seems this comic isn't in Comics Extra or Read comics online, I checked getcomics but saw only TBPs and one from #113 to #140.

 

[Antvasima]

You can try read comic online .li

 

[Vasco]

The same thing, tried thrice infact.

 

[Excellence616]

The same thing, tried thrice infact.

Try readallcomics.com

 

[Antvasima]

The same thing, tried thrice infact.

I cannot watch the image that you tried to link to. Please try uploading it to Imgur or Gyazo instead.

 

[Vasco]

Try readallcomics.com

Seen it, Thanks.

Atlas has barely made any appearances in Marvel comics, but his appearances in The Incredible Hercules don't seem to contradict what the handbook says

Please can you tell me the issue?

I cannot watch the image that you tried to link to. Please try uploading it to Imgur or Gyazo instead.

I've seen the book now just need the exact issue to check.

 

[KLOL506]

Did Hercules lift the entire infinite three-dimensional void (that is likely filled with an infinite number of other universes), or just the local universe?

Unlikely it would be limited to just the observable portion. Something about the Axis Mundi was also mentioned in the scan of Atlas. Or something.

Prolly we can differentiate between feats that state "universe" and "entire universe". "Universe" could refer to the observable portion, and "entire universe" could refer to the observable portion + void.

Speaking of which, Atlas needs a profile.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Please can you tell me the issue?

Atlas' main appearances are Incredible Hercules Issue 121 (this is the one with Hercules' heavens feat), 123, 124 and 132

 

[Eficiente]

The feat's not contradicted by what little of it is shown in the comic, they say nothing of what the heavens is or how much does it weight (or how does the world withstand that weight on top of it, or how could it do so before Atlas lifted the heavens). The Handbook simply applied to it that value by saying that new information.

I didn't disagree with it at first but now I do find issues with it, the same Handbooks apply all Heralds to be able to lift around 100 tons, it contradicts their own information that someone whom Heralds scale to would be able to lift infinite weights. Not to mention how "infinitely massive weights" can be hyperbolic. The feat as Infinite LS should not be used.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

the same Handbooks apply all Heralds to be able to lift around 100 tons

Just because they can lift around 100 tons doesn't mean they can't lift more